NationStates Jolt Archive

A fire on board the famous 19th Century ship Cutty Sark is now out and is being treated as suspicious by police.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6675381.stm

This is terrible news. What sort of person would do something like this? A century of history, destroyed by mindless vandals.

They should be locked up and the key thrown into the bottom of the Thames. If they have so little respect for society, then I see no reason why society should have respect for them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6675381.stm

This is terrible news. What sort of person would do something like this? A century of history, destroyed by mindless vandals.

They should be locked up and the key thrown into the bottom of the Thames. If they have so little respect for society, then I see no reason why society should have respect for them.

This makes me very, very sad indeed.
I used to be very passionate about old shipss when I was younger, and the Cutty Sark has always been one of my favourites... I'm glad I got to see her before this happened. :(

This makes me very, very sad indeed.
I used to be very passionate about old shipss when I was younger, and the Cutty Sark has always been one of my favourites... I'm glad I got to see her before this happened. :(

It was a beautiful ship. They say that half of the timbers had been removed for restoration, but even when they put them back it will never be the same. As the Chief Executive of the Trust put it:
When you lose original fabric, you lose the touch of the craftsman, you lose history itself.

I just don't understand who could do something like this.

why can't we have one historical item that isn't proclaimed part of our heritage?

also its just a boat, it can be rebuilt I really don't see it as news

why can't we have one historical item that isn't proclaimed part of our heritage?

also its just a boat, it can be rebuilt I really don't see it as news

Because history is part of our heritage. Don't think that because we've got a lot of historical items we can afford to be blasé about them.

Nothing helps us to understand who we are and where we've come from than our history. Ships like this help us to connect with our ancestry, to imagine what life was like for them, centuries before we were even conceived. Now, a piece of that is lost, possibly for ever.

I'd say that was very newsworthy.

I just don't understand who could do something like this.

I never beleive the police when they say suspicious, ooh a group had been seen before the fire yet we have no evidence of them actually staring it, despite having CCTV watching the ship

I never beleive the police when they say suspicious, ooh a group had been seen before the fire yet we have no evidence of them actually staring it, despite having CCTV watching the ship

If it was an accident, then that would at least be some consolidation - these things happen, and while it would still be a tragedy, it would be more understandable. If it was deliberate, though, I simply cannot comprehend the mindset of the person who would do such a thing.

Because history is part of our heritage. Don't think that because we've got a lot of historical items we can afford to be blasé about them.

I'm sorry but a copy of King Arthur's sword is just as magical (if not more) than the real thing

the big thing wrong with the idea of "British" heritage is that it is world heritage not some patriotic tripe about what the British people can achieve

Now, a piece of that is lost, possibly for ever.

is a boat that has had all its parts replaced the same boat?

I think it terribly sad news that something so important to our historical understanding has been damaged, how badly has yet to be assessed, but even so, parts of it will have been destroyed. If this was started deliberately, then that is even worse.


:(

why can't we have one historical item that isn't proclaimed part of our heritage?

also its just a boat, it can be rebuilt I really don't see it as news

Yep, and the Titanic was just a boat.
The Cutty Sark was the fastest tea clipper ever built. As such, I guess there might still be one or to things to learn from that ship...

saw it on the 4:30 newsbreak :(

I'm sorry but a copy of King Arthur's sword is just as magical (if not more) than the real thing
Of course it wouldn't be. A copy is just a piece of metal, struck to look like something. The real thing would have so much more; imagine holding the actual sword used by King Arthur. That feeling of actually touching history simply cannot be replicated.

the big thing wrong with the idea of "British" heritage is that it is world heritage not some patriotic tripe about what the British people can achieve
I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant, as I don't believe anyone has specifically referred to its importance as a British ship. Perhaps your problem is with the idea of being proud of anything British, rather than the idea that history is important?

is a boat that has had all its parts replaced the same boat?
No. Is a broom that's had ten new handles and 5 new brushes the same broom?

I'm sorry but a copy of King Arthur's sword is just as magical (if not more) than the real thing


Are you serious? If you had the chance to meet your idol, if it be musical or sporting or whatever, and you turned up and it was a lookalike, you would feel that was just as good? If not better?

If I could see and touch something that has the been part of the fabric of time and history then that is far better than seeing a copy of it. I love the thought of the people who have passed through time and have been involved with an object or a place. I would be thrilled to be able to touch the original sword of 'King Arthur' (should it exist of course) But I have already had a go at pulling a replica of it out of a replica stone in Disneyland and to be honest it didn't really fill me with awe.

I'm sorry but a copy of King Arthur's sword is just as magical (if not more) than the real thing

the big thing wrong with the idea of "British" heritage is that it is world heritage not some patriotic tripe about what the British people can achieve


Well, I regard it as world heritage. What did you think it was?
I'm not British, but I personally am sad to hear that this beautiful example of craftsmanship has been partially destroyed and possibly even vandalised.

is a boat that has had all its parts replaced the same boat?

is your home the same home when you change a light bulb

imagine holding the actual sword used by King Arthur.

I see little appeal in holding anything used by King Arthur or any other historical figure, I'm sorry but I don't feel any magic emanating form such objects nor would I find it more exiting than playing with a mint condition 5th century sword

guess I'm not a museum person :confused:

I'm not entirely sure why this is relevant, as I don't believe anyone has specifically referred to its relevance as a British ship. Perhaps your problem is with the idea of being proud of anything British, rather than idea that history is important?

"He added that the Cutty Sark was not just an important part of maritime heritage but an important part of British identity."

to be honest being proud of something you had no part of doing especially if your only claim is through a bloodline is silly at best, nothing makes British heritage or identity special to me anymore than French heritage

No. Is a broom that's had ten new handles and 5 new brushes the same broom?

no and yet the fact that 50% of the ship was being renovated at this point doesn't lead you to conclude that maybe 50+ years has had its way with the ships identity

Gutted about this. As a Sea Scout in London in the early 80's, I spent many happy hours chugging down the Thames on a clapped out old boat to visit the Cutty Sark and wander around Greenwich.

Being a kid from Sarf London, it was the closest thing to a proper day out.

If there is a chance of putting the old girl back together, even with new materials, I'd welcome it.

Call to Power, you are a silly person. :p

What exactly is a 'museum person' ?

Are you serious? If you had the chance to meet your idol, if it be musical or sporting or whatever, and you turned up and it was a lookalike, you would feel that was just as good? If not better?

in all honesty I wouldn't wish to meet any idol I may have especially if there old and broken

meeting an amazing person who is incredibly interesting sounds much more fun

Well, I regard it as world heritage. What did you think it was?

a novelty item existing out of the ideal that such a time will never die as long as it exists

What exactly is a 'museum person' ?

a guy who gets off touching old things due to some mental idea of magic

a bad haircut is also a sign though not strictly enforced :p

in all honesty I wouldn't wish to meet any idol I may have especially if there old and broken

meeting an amazing person who is incredibly interesting sounds much more fun


That's what it felt like when I was visiting the Cutty Surk... it was amazing, interesting, fascinating, instructive and overall an amazing experience.


a novelty item existing out of the ideal that such a time will never die as long as it exists

So, nothing instuctive about what the world was like 150 years back, nothing amazing regarding the skill with which she was built, nothing interesting about the records she set...

Well, I guess it's true that people only see and learn what they want to see and learn.

Very sad, very sad news indeed.

I can only hope that we can restore her to her former glory. If not, another thread that links us to our history is severed. History must be preserved at all costs, lest we forget.

a guy who gets off touching old things due to some mental idea of magic

a bad haircut is also a sign though not strictly enforced :p


See, I like to visit historic sites and look at stuff, when I was in Venice I actually cried when I went into St. Marks. I don't have some mental idea of magic, well I don't think I do. I am not a guy, ( I just checked and I have these great boobies) and I have great hair too, people are always telling me how beautiful it is, and that they wished they could have hair like mine. I am also very funny and sexy as all get out. ....it is even more silly of you to think that because people care about something that you don't, it makes them in some way weird or strange. I also must ask, do you get excited about anything? at all? ever?

That's what it felt like when I was visiting the Cutty Surk... it was amazing, interesting, fascinating, instructive and overall an amazing experience.

you could learn far more from a Kellogg's interactive cd and/or a model kit, the only conceivable improvement is the "magic" affect which tends to be rather confined to those who already know about the ship and are only reason for the visit is to culminate the obsession

So, nothing instuctive about what the world was like 150 years back, nothing amazing regarding the skill with which she was built, nothing interesting about the records she set...

all of which has been recorded and could easily be made to a snazzy CD-ROM

you could learn far more from a Kellogg's interactive cd

We are not robots, with learning confined to statistics and figures. We can 'learn' a thousand things from 'CD-ROMs', but we wouldn't necessarily understand them. I have read more times than I can remember about the horrors endured by the soldiers in WWI, for example, but nothing compares to the haunting experience of walking through the trenches, then visiting the cemeteries.

History on paper is just facts and figures. History that you visit is alive.

Damn, I hope that she can be repaired and made worthy again. And if it WAS deliberate... Well, and old fashioned keel hauling under her keel sounds about right.

is a boat that has had all its parts replaced the same boat?
No, ask any sailor and they will tell you that it is not the same ship.

you could learn far more from a Kellogg's interactive cd and/or a model kit, the only conceivable improvement is the "magic" affect which tends to be rather confined to those who already know about the ship and are only reason for the visit is to culminate the obsession



all of which has been recorded and could easily be made to a snazzy CD-ROM

I kind of hope you are just bored and playing the devil's advocate here.

Rant about appearance

erm...*points to definition of a generalization slightly unnerved that I had to read that* (its whats on the inside that counts:p)

it is even more silly of you to think that because people care about something that you don't, it makes them in some way weird or strange.

I think people having spiritual experiences (lets face it all the signs are there) over objects is weird but then again so are people in general

I also must ask, do you get excited about anything? at all? ever?

I get exited over new things that I've never encountered or have little past experience to dull down the amazement

you could learn far more from a Kellogg's interactive cd and/or a model kit, the only conceivable improvement is the "magic" affect which tends to be rather confined to those who already know about the ship and are only reason for the visit is to culminate the obsession



all of which has been recorded and could easily be made to a snazzy CD-ROM

Okay. How about we do this differently? What if say, The Sistine Chapel in the Vatican City burned down? What if the remains of the ancient City of Ephesus were destroyed in an earthquake?

Would you be simply content to look at a bitmap of the Sistine Chapel Roof Painting?

Would you be content at being shown a mere album of photos that show the majestic city of Ephesus?

I know I wouldn't. I've seen these marvels and I learned that in order to be able to truly learn and understand history, you have to see history.

The sad truth is you probably haven't seen either and don't wish to any time in the future.

you could learn far more from a Kellogg's interactive cd and/or a model kit, the only conceivable improvement is the "magic" affect which tends to be rather confined to those who already know about the ship and are only reason for the visit is to culminate the obsession



all of which has been recorded and could easily be made to a snazzy CD-ROM

I have CD-ROMs and model kits of her at home, it's nowhere near the same as actually standing on the ship and visually comprehending the dimensions and details.
Seriously, this is a bit like saying that you can easily learn to drive from a CD-ROM and with model cars, you don't need to ever have been on the road to get your driver's license.

We can 'learn' a thousand things from 'CD-ROMs', but we wouldn't necessarily understand them.

there are fun puzzles to make sure you do understand the concepts actually :)

but nothing compares to the haunting experience of walking through the trenches, then visiting the cemeteries.

you can get more of a feel when you watch a good educational film especially when there is good use of timing and effects (though I hope you realize smiler techniques are used with battlefield tours etc)

History on paper is just facts and figures. History that you visit is alive.

call it lack of imagination but to get back to the point King Arthur's rotted sword hold much less life to me than a replica in mint condition (also to add a point it will teach you far more)

No, ask any sailor and they will tell you that it is not the same ship.

as such as I'm trying to show it has no more magic than a replica (and is by all stretches of the mind a replica what with it being from 1869)

I kind of hope you are just bored and playing the devil's advocate here.

the thread on Russian space containment is going slow :p

you can get more of a feel when you watch a good educational film especially when there is good use of timing and effects (though I hope you realize smiler techniques are used with battlefield tours etc)
Not really. There's a lot that those CDROMs can't manage, the feel of a ship or her smell. I've taken virtual tours of WWII aircraft carriers, but it wasn't anything as good as actually going aboard the USS Hornet and being able to smell what the ship was like, to feel the metal on her, the resistance of the helm and her controls, to sit in the captain's chair and look out over her flight deck. The CDROMs could never show that.

as such as I'm trying to show it has no more magic than a replica (and is by all stretches of the mind a replica what with it being from 1869)

It's most of her original timber and her frame. Her keel has not been replaced (and doesn't look like it needs to be), she isn't a replica, she's the real thing.

I learned that in order to be able to truly learn and understand history, you have to see history.

and you can somehow not see history with an imagination :confused:

The sad truth is you probably haven't seen either and don't wish to any time in the future.

well I've seen the The Sistine Chapel and though I've missed the City of Ephesus I have seen my fair amount of sights

though your right in that I don't intend on visiting them in future mostly because there not my choices on how to spend a holiday

Seriously, this is a bit like saying that you can easily learn to drive from a CD-ROM and with model cars, you don't need to ever have been on the road to get your driver's license.

and visiting a car qualifies you how?

and visiting a car qualifies you how?

Visiting the Sistine Chapel doesn't make me a qualified Vatican Historian, but at least I've seen it and touched it.

and visiting a car qualifies you how?

If you want to learn about history, you need to look at the artifacts.
If you want to learn how to drive, you need to get into a car.

If you want to learn about history, you need to look at the artifacts.

I don't see how me viewing an exact replica of a pot is any different to the real thing

If you want to learn how to drive, you need to get into a car.

Museums don't let you play with the artifacts...

I don't see how me viewing an exact replica of a pot is any different to the real thing
Because no one is ever going to be able to make an exact replica of anything.

Museums don't let you play with the artifacts...
Depends upon the museum.

Museums don't let you play with the artifacts...

You obviously have never been to the Touch and Smell section. ;)

I don't see how me viewing an exact replica of a pot is any different to the real thing

There's no such thing as a 100% identical replica.


Museums don't let you play with the artifacts...

They do. Some of them. There were a good few things on the Cutty Sark you could play with.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6675381.stm

This is terrible news. What sort of person would do something like this? A century of history, destroyed by mindless vandals.

They should be locked up and the key thrown into the bottom of the Thames. If they have so little respect for society, then I see no reason why society should have respect for them.
Just heard it about 5 minutes ago, rumour has it, it was the Muslims.

Just heard it about 5 minutes ago, rumour has it, it was the Muslims.

I hope you're being sarcastic.

You obviously have never been to the Touch and Smell section. ;)
Or been with your momma!

Just heard it about 5 minutes ago, rumour has it, it was the Muslims.

TEH EBIL MOZLIMS R DEZTROYIN OUR HIZTORYZ!!!!!!!!!!1111!1!111!1shift+1!

I hope you're being sarcastic.
Post below yours and above mine might explain.

But i didn't know you'd replied to my 'earlier' post, twas coincidental.

Just heard it about 5 minutes ago, rumour has it, it was the Muslims.

I think petty criminals and tinpot thugs is more likely.

I don't see how me viewing an exact replica of a pot is any different to the real thing

Because a 3,000 year old pot is something that was used day in day out by the people 3,000 years ago. Something somebody crafted 3,000 years ago, and something which links us to their methods, experiences, and lifestyle.

A modern replica is just some piece of junk that some factory churned out.

Man, that is just so sad. Why would someone do something like that? Also, it's not "just a ship". It's history. Floating, tangible history. I liken it to someone defacing a priceless painting. Because it is a work of art, as well. Sayng it's "not news" is being more than a little disingenous. "Not news" is someone sneaking onto your property and putting a hole in the bottom of your rowboat docked on your lake.

What is this world coming to..... At least it sounds as thoiugh the basic structure of the ship is still intact, so perhaps the damage can be fixed. I hope so.

A modern replica is just some piece of junk that some factory churned out.

Actually, most modern replicas are produced using the same methods.

As far as the Cutty Sark itself goes... meh. Big deal. It's unfortunate, but not a CATASTROPHIC TRAGEDY as the OP would have us believe. That would be something like the Congolese Wars.

My brother's a flamer.. what?!

:(

I hope she can be restored.

Actually, most modern replicas are produced using the same methods.

But they're still not the same...

Am I the only one that thinks this does not qualify as "tragedy" I mean sure I think it was pointless for vandals to set fire to it

But its only a ship ... not too heart broken about it

Nadkor - so what? They look it, they were made like it. Close enough. Or would you like an original Holocaust to go with your Polish-gov't rebuilt Auschwitz-Birkenau in order to make it more authentic?

Am I the only one that thinks this does not qualify as "tragedy"

No. You're not alone.

Nadkor - so what? They look it, they were made like it. Close enough. Or would you like an original Holocaust to go with your Polish-gov't rebuilt Auschwitz-Birkenau in order to make it more authentic?

So they look like it, and were made in a similar way. Big deal. There's a reason why museums want originals of stuff; because they are, simply, far more interesting, and are of infinitely greater historical value.

As for the holocaust...which would you prefer to see;
1) artefacts (clothing, shoes, jewellery, even) left behind when the camps were discovered, or
2) replicas

Which would be the more emotive? Which would have a connection with somebody who suffered through the time? Which is of more value?

My answer is 1, every time.

So they look like it, and were made in a similar way. Big deal. There's a reason why museums want originals of stuff; because they are, simply, far more interesting, and are of infinitely greater historical value.

Aha, you never specified museums. ;)

As for the holocaust... Which would be the more emotive? Which would have a connection with somebody who suffered through the time? Which is of more value?

The real thing, obviously.

See, what I'm saying here is that replicas are not automatically to be dismissed out of hand, they teach us a lot - such as how things were made or worked or used.

Further, I'm saying that destruction of, or damage to, the Cutty Sark is not a catastrophe or a tragedy.

is your home the same home when you change a light bulb

Slight difference between a light bulb and the very structure of the house though....

Aha, you never specified museums. ;)



The real thing, obviously.

See, what I'm saying here is that replicas are not automatically to be dismissed out of hand, they teach us a lot - such as how things were made or worked or used.

Further, I'm saying that destruction of, or damage to, the Cutty Sark is not a catastrophe or a tragedy.

While it's not really a ctastrophe the way the Asian tsunami was, I would say it qualifies as a tragedy for many of those who posted so far.
As I said before, I used to be enthusiastic about anything maritime, and especially passionate about old ships. And as such, she's been one of my absolute favourites for a very long time. I've been to see her twice, and I do feel sad to know that parts of her were destroyed.

While it's not really a ctastrophe the way the Asian tsunami was, I would say it qualifies as a tragedy for many of those who posted so far.

Actually, while it might, it certainly isn't a tragedy.

A tragedy involves the influence of the very gods themselves.

This has nothing to do with gods.

Nor does it have any real human suffering, as opposed to, say, the current Lebanese violence. :rolleyes:

Actually, while it might, it certainly isn't a tragedy.

A tragedy involves the influence of the very gods themselves.

This has nothing to do with gods.

Nor does it have any real human suffering, as opposed to, say, the current Lebanese violence. :rolleyes:

B
O
R
I
N
G

Go and heckle somebody else, Mr. Moralistic.

Actually, while it might, it certainly isn't a tragedy.

A tragedy involves the influence of the very gods themselves.

This has nothing to do with gods.

Nor does it have any real human suffering, as opposed to, say, the current Lebanese violence. :rolleyes:

Leave it to NSers to actually have a precise definition of what one is allowed to regard as tragedy and what not...

OMFG.... I can't be agreeing with The Blessed Chris! This isn't happening!!! :eek:

To the blessed Chris - :p No

To Cabra West - this is not a tragedy. It's an unfortunate accident or a criminal act.

A tragedy involves actual human suffering, or the influence of the very gods themselves. I am irritated by the bandying around and the lessening of the word tragedy.

It's trotted out for fucking everything now. This is a bad thing, I reckon.

if it really was deliberate and mindless it's a fucking disgrace.

To the blessed Chris - :p No

To Cabra West - this is not a tragedy. It's an unfortunate accident or a criminal act.

A tragedy involves actual human suffering, or the influence of the very gods themselves. I am irritated by the bandying around and the lessening of the word tragedy.

It's trotted out for fucking everything now. This is a bad thing, I reckon.

OED definition (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/tragedy?view=uk)
It causes distress, therefore it qualifies.

I can't believe I actually wasted time looking up that definition... :rolleyes:

To the blessed Chris - :p No

To Cabra West - this is not a tragedy. It's an unfortunate accident or a criminal act.

A tragedy involves actual human suffering, or the influence of the very gods themselves. I am irritated by the bandying around and the lessening of the word tragedy.

It's trotted out for fucking everything now. This is a bad thing, I reckon.

Actually, a tragedy involves a fall from greatness due to a collusion of pride and fate. Not a simplistic rant in which the word "OOOOOOOMAN SUFFERIN" is barely audible.

However, I must agree with you in regard to the mis-use of words. Crisis is one that pisses me off.