NationStates Jolt Archive

I was wandering around Wikipedia when I came across this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin

Now, this article [For me] at least, is hard to understand.

Is the Unforgivable Sin saying a word like 'G-damn'

Or is it the refusal to accept Jesus and God as your god/savior?

Or is it, after you have discovered Christ, the decision to keep on sinning against God?

I also understand that this is a controversial sin, so feel free to debate it.

Edit: Oh, to answer your original question... Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. Since the Holy Spirit according to scripture is the provider and maintainer of Faith, you are pretty much saying you don't believe in God. Problem is, not anyone can commit the unforgivable sin; only Christians can (then, obviously, they are not Christians any more after saying that.)

Also, there was a popular video thing on youtube...

http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/

In Judaism, the only unforgivable sin is chillul hashem "desecration of the Name". Think of it as hurting G-d's PR image. It can only be atoned for through death (so, it's not entirely unforgivable).

Any other sin - even murder, idolatry, or sexual immorality - may be atoned for within one's lifetime. I regard the concept of teshuva - forgiveness - as so essential to Judaism, that declaring any sin to be truly beyond forgiveness is not only repugnant to my morals, it is in fact a sign of true evil.

Snip

So you are saying that if you are a Christian and renounce your faith, that is the unforgivable sin? I also read about that challenge.

So you are saying that if you are a Christian and renounce your faith, that is the unforgivable sin? I also read about that challenge.
Pretty much.

Pretty much.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Interesting challenge. I could deny the Holy Spirit, as I do not recognize the Trinity. I believe in a single, indivisible G-d. To do otherwise would jepoardize my place in the World to Come.

And while I may not have lived at the time of Jesus, I am a Pharisee, and proud of it too. Of course, all modern Jews are Pharisees.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
No problem. I have two uncles who are Lutheran pastors, and a mom who taught bible study for 13 years. You start to pick religious stuff up when you have that. ;)

I was wandering around Wikipedia when I came across this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin

Now, this article [For me] at least, is hard to understand.

Is the Unforgivable Sin saying a word like 'G-damn'

Or is it the refusal to accept Jesus and God as your god/savior?

Or is it, after you have discovered Christ, the decision to keep on sinning against God?

I also understand that this is a controversial sin, so feel free to debate it.

I had always thought the unforgivable sin was putting yourself in the place of god - making god-like decisions and taking god-like liberties.

So you are saying that if you are a Christian and renounce your faith, that is the unforgivable sin? I also read about that challenge.

From the article on wiki, looks like that's the unforgivable sin - apostasy (αποστασία) - that is, a christian who renounces his faith to embrace something else, be it another faith or atheism.

Well, I'm saved. I never was a christian.;)

The Unforgivable Sin is when you fail to recognize God/Jesus as the one true God, and not only recognize this but accept Him as your Savior

The Unforgivable Sin is when you fail to recognize God/Jesus as the one true God, and not only recognize this but accept Him as your Savior

No. This sin (actually, you mean Father/Son/Holy Spirit, don't you, it's the Trinity after all) is forgiven if the unbeliever accepts the Trinity and the christian dogmas, and undergoes baptism, becoming a christian.

From the article on wiki, looks like that's the unforgivable sin - apostasy (αποστασία) - that is, a christian who renounces his faith to embrace something else, be it another faith or atheism.

Well, I'm saved. I never was a christian.;)

Looks like I am going to hell then, just as well I don't believe in that either.

So... if this is the only unforgivable sin, renouncing Christianity is worse than genocide or mass murder?

So... if this is the only unforgivable sin, renouncing Christianity is worse than genocide or mass murder?

Yup. That's religion for ya, terribly silly in some ways.

So... if this is the only unforgivable sin, renouncing Christianity is worse than genocide or mass murder?

Well, duhhhh. Its not like you would be a mass murderer of christians :rolleyes:.

Yup. That's religion for ya, terribly silly in some ways.Yep.
The most silly point is the infantile jealousy that is the defining aspect of the Jewish and subsequently Christian god. This god takes himself way too seriously, or rather the ones who fabricated him viewed themselves way more important than they really were, hence the over high esteem for the protector god of the "chosen people" <cough/>.

In Judaism, the only unforgivable sin is chillul hashem "desecration of the Name".And outside Judaism? I.e. in the real world?

And outside Judaism? I.e. in the real world?

Wouldn't a real world sin require a real world god?

Wouldn't a real world sin require a real world god?

Good point.

Wouldn't a real world sin require a real world god?Yes. That is why there is no such thing as sin in the real world. According to the abrahamic religions sin is the separation from god, that's why denying or diminishing god is the worst sin, even worse than murder, rape, and what not... that's also why killing non-Jews was never a problem for Jews (or later killing non-Christians for Christians and killing non-Muslims for Muslims).

What's this god damned thread about!

What's this god damned thread about!

You should goddamn-well know! Read the god-damned OP for Christ's sake!

God-damn it!

:p

There is only unforgivable/eternal sin if you believe there is.

there is debate about what the "unforgivable sin" is and I believe it's rejecting Jesus, because if you die in your sin, it's really too late.

of course dying in your sin is pretty much a ticket to hell anyway.......

Christians are forgiven because they have accepted that Jesus took their punhisment.

Non Christians can be forgiven because they did not understand or know better. For example Romans 2 says that Gentiles (non Jews) who did not have the Jewish law as guide will be judged by the law written in their hearts (their consciousness) instead of by the Jewish law. While Jews and specially religious teachers who are are expected to know better that will be judged more strictly.

Christians who reject their faith can't be forgiven as Christians because they have rejected Jesus but they can't be forgiven as non Christians either because they did know better. Thus this is the only situation that can't be forgiven.

Wouldn't a real world sin require a real world god?

No. It requires just a real world inquisitor or a real world fanatical. Sadly, there are plenty of historical and actual examples of that.:(

Christians are forgiven because they have accepted that Jesus took their punhisment.

Non Christians can be forgiven because they did not understand or know better. For example Romans 2 says that Gentiles (non Jews) who did not have the Jewish law as guide will be judged by the law written in their hearts (their consciousness) instead of by the Jewish law. While Jews and specially religious teachers who are are expected to know better that will be judged more strictly.

Christians who reject their faith can't be forgiven as Christians because they have rejected Jesus but they can't be forgiven as non Christians either because they did know better. Thus this is the only situation that can't be forgiven.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

“Truly I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, ‘He has an unclean spirit’.” (Book of Mark 3:28-29)

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven . And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Book of Matthew 12:30-32)

This is not debatable, it is Gods word .... period.

Christians are forgiven because they have accepted that Jesus took their punhisment.

Non Christians can be forgiven because they did not understand or know better. For example Romans 2 says that Gentiles (non Jews) who did not have the Jewish law as guide will be judged by the law written in their hearts (their consciousness) instead of by the Jewish law. While Jews and specially religious teachers who are are expected to know better that will be judged more strictly.

Christians who reject their faith can't be forgiven as Christians because they have rejected Jesus but they can't be forgiven as non Christians either because they did know better. Thus this is the only situation that can't be forgiven.Given that anything in Christianity's teachings were true. Which would require that the teachings of Judaism were true. But since those are almost entirely made up, the teachings of Christianity are in fact worthless and have no relevance in reality.


and btw (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/05/20/baby.in.microwave.ap/index.html)

“Truly I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, ‘He has an unclean spirit’.” (Book of Mark 3:28-29)

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven . And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Book of Matthew 12:30-32)

This is not debatable, it is Gods word .... period.

it depends on what it means by blasphemy......there is debate about that.

http://www.kencollins.com/bible-d1.htm

...

This is not debatable, it is Gods word .... period.
Nope, actually it is the word of someone who has been dubbed "Matthew".

Nope, actually it is the word of someone who has been dubbed "Matthew".

you know what scared the hell out of me the other day? I was listening to a local preacher and he said "let's go to the book of Ephesians and see what God has to say about this"

Paul is God?:eek::(

So... if this is the only unforgivable sin, renouncing Christianity is worse than genocide or mass murder?

Well, think about it. Genocide and mass murder are forgivable, but not likely to be forgiven as the perpetrators are unlikely to be truly repentant. Whereas how can you be forgiven by a God whom you deny exists?

Well, think about it. Genocide and mass murder are forgivable, but not likely to be forgiven as the perpetrators are unlikely to be truly repentant. Whereas how can you be forgiven by a God whom you deny exists?
But it's not implausible that if you didn't believe there was a God, and you died and were unpleasantly surprised, you'd be quite sorry for your earlier misconceptions.

But it's not implausible that if you didn't believe there was a God, and you died and were unpleasantly surprised, you'd be quite sorry for your earlier misconceptions.

I know I'm pretty fucked unless there's a Flying Spaghetti Monster on the other side.

Whereas how can you be forgiven by a God whom you deny exists?Depends on whether that God is so proud and jealous that he needs your admiration and submission and cannot forgive the denial of such humiliation...

I know I'm pretty fucked unless there's a Flying Spaghetti Monster on the other side.
I wouldn't be too worried, I hear Raptor Jesus is quite forgiving too.

But it's not implausible that if you didn't believe there was a God, and you died and were unpleasantly surprised, you'd be quite sorry for your earlier misconceptions.

That's different than believing at first, acknowledging His existence, and then turning around and explicitly denying that He does in fact, exist, after you had believed.

“Truly I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter: but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they say, ‘He has an unclean spirit’.” (Book of Mark 3:28-29)

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven . And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Book of Matthew 12:30-32)

This is not debatable, it is Gods word .... period.

ya ya god's word. but then you have to interpret it and as you see it has lots of interpretations

i take the interpretation implied by the situation going on in mark. jesus drives out demons and the pharisees suggest that he is in league with satan. jesus is pissed and says that anyone who denies the work of the holy spirit is sinning. so, when people do faith healing, speak in tongues or are otherwise possessed of the holy spirit and you poo-poo it, you are committing an unforgivable sin. you are expected to take it on face value as coming from the holy spirit and not over think it and decide that its satanic instead.

Nope, actually it is the word of someone who has been dubbed "Matthew".


You are wrong .... Ok I'll make this as simple as possible so you can understand it. Sometimes when people want to write a book they hire a professional writer to do the actual writing. However the original ideas that the writer is putting into document form is not there ideas, they are just publishing it for their client. All the books of the Bible is like this, God hired Matthew and all the rest of the people who actually put the books in a physical book for us all to read, but the material that is contained within is Gods property. In other words it is " GODS " Word written by men inspired to do so for him.

ya ya god's word. but then you have to interpret it and as you see it has lots of interpretations

i take the interpretation implied by the situation going on in mark. jesus drives out demons and the pharisees suggest that he is in league with satan. jesus is pissed and says that anyone who denies the work of the holy spirit is sinning. so, when people do faith healing, speak in tongues or are otherwise possessed of the holy spirit and you poo-poo it, you are committing an unforgivable sin. you are expected to take it on face value as coming from the holy spirit and not over think it and decide that its satanic instead.


Scripture says that mankind has no right as far as God is concerned to " Interpretting " their own meaning of gods word. This interpretation idea is something man made up so he has a reason to do what he wants to do instead of what God has told him to do.

Scripture says that mankind has no right as far as God is concerned to " Interpretting " their own meaning of gods word. This interpretation idea is something man made up so he has a reason to do what he wants to do instead of what God has told him to do.But since the god is just as made up as the interpretation, interpreting the meanings of god differently does not make a difference at all.

But since the god is just as made up as the interpretation, interpreting the meanings of god differently does not make a difference at all.

You're making an assumption, here, and it is no better than the assumption that God does exist. Arguing from this absolute does not further the argument; don't fight the hypothesis.

Hey, it looks like I've committed the unforgivable sin, then. I feel so proud. :p

You're making an assumption, here, and it is no better than the assumption that God does exist. Arguing from this absolute does not further the argument; don't fight the hypothesis.Why is this an assumption? That the biblical god is entirely fabricated from bits and pieces of (much) earlier non-Jew-ish traditions and beliefs (while denying those traditions and beliefs) is not a mere assumption, it's a well-explored fact.

Why is this an assumption? That the biblical god is entirely fabricated from bits and pieces of (much) earlier non-Jew-ish traditions and beliefs (while denying those traditions and beliefs) is not a mere assumption, it's a well-explored fact.

One I vehemently disagree with.

And as denying G-d is not a chillul hashem, it can be forgiven - if you realize that you were wrong, and atone for your misdeeds. I'll check with my rabbis if you can do this in the afterlife.

One I vehemently disagree with.Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. It's like you disagreeing with the fact that water is wet. It just won't change the properties of water.

And as denying G-d is not a chillul hashem, it can be forgiven - if you realize that you were wrong, and atone for your misdeeds. I'll check with my rabbis if you can do this in the afterlife.I am not wrong. And asking rabbis is not the best way to find out anything about the real world.

Scripture says that mankind has no right as far as God is concerned to " Interpretting " their own meaning of gods word. This interpretation idea is something man made up so he has a reason to do what he wants to do instead of what God has told him to do.

so... the meaning of the passage you quoted is that the next time i see jesus doing a miracle of casting out demons i shouldnt question it?

ok, im good with that.

Why is this an assumption? That the biblical god is entirely fabricated from bits and pieces of (much) earlier non-Jew-ish traditions and beliefs (while denying those traditions and beliefs) is not a mere assumption, it's a well-explored fact.

But that's not the argument, is it? You're asinine statements are contrary to the hypothesis. You obviously aren't here to debate. I'm done feeding you, troll.

But that's not the argument, is it? You're asinine statements are contrary to the hypothesis. You obviously aren't here to debate. I'm done feeding you, troll.Yes, that is the argument. If your hypothesis is that the biblical god exists then I have to tell you that this hypothesis is entirely baseless and aimless, since it is already known how this god was put together. It is indeed somewhat like starting a discussion on the hypothesis that fire is wet. Welcome to the real world.

you know what scared the hell out of me the other day? I was listening to a local preacher and he said "let's go to the book of Ephesians and see what God has to say about this"

Paul is God?:eek::(

Paul was speaking for God to the Ephesian people. Or, you could say, God was speaking through Paul to the Christian people. So no, to answer your question. Paul is not God.

of course dying in your sin is pretty much a ticket to hell anyway.......

I dunno, from what I understand you can basically have your last words be "I REPENT!" and there you go.

I dunno, from what I understand you can basically have your last words be "I REPENT!" and there you go.

if you repent you are forgiven.

if you repent you are forgiven.

So you want to die in some way that gives you about two seconds after it happens, right? For example, being hit by a truck makes you go to hell, whereas cancer makes you go to heaven. Correct?

So you want to die in some way that gives you about two seconds after it happens, right? For example, being hit by a truck makes you go to hell, whereas cancer makes you go to heaven. Correct?

not really........I am not exactly sure how I mislead you down this path.

not really........I am not exactly sure how I mislead you down this path.

It was a joke, Smunkee. I was implying that if Christianity's right, you want time to repent.

I have a question. do most professional athletes go to hell? I mean they're always thanking god for their success, but always beleive that a trinket, or other, plays part in their success as an athlete. They thanked their good but to them the trinket what was caused them the success.

It was a joke, Smunkee. I was implying that if Christianity's right, you want time to repent.

you have time now........REPENT!

I have a question. do most professional athletes go to hell? I mean they're always thanking god for their success, but always beleive that a trinket, or other, plays part in their success as an athlete. They thanked their good but to them the trinket what was caused them the success.
nobody really knows who goes to hell, or what hell is, or if it even exists. *nod*

you have time now........REPENT!

Awww do I haaaave to?

I was wandering around Wikipedia when I came across this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin

Now, this article [For me] at least, is hard to understand.

Is the Unforgivable Sin saying a word like 'G-damn'

Or is it the refusal to accept Jesus and God as your god/savior?

Or is it, after you have discovered Christ, the decision to keep on sinning against God?

I also understand that this is a controversial sin, so feel free to debate it.

I believe the unforgivable sins are brainwash and suicide for the following reasons.

God forgives all sins when you truly accept Jesus Christ, however once saved God puts bliss in you so you wouldn't want to kill yourself. The rules God set down are that if your are not saved after you die its burnination time for you so logistically, a saved person wouldn't commit suicide, only unsaved ones and then theres a problem, they're already dead and can't ask forgiveness because they were unsaved at time of death.

Secondly to be saved one must choose to be by his/her own free will. Which is why I think brainwashing someone is a one way ticket to hell or being brainwashed is a one way ticket to hell. Let me expound. By brainwashing someone you remove their ability to think independently and choose thus removing their ability to get properly saved condemning them to hell because they can't choose freely. And since brainwash destroys the mind and replaces it by "time bombs" stimuli programmed into the individual brainwashed, and taking into consideration that the mind and soul are the exact same thing you basically destroyed the soul to save. By brainwashing you basically made it impossible for the individual to choose God freely and destroyed his/her soul which is the part God is saving so you not only condemned those who brainwash to hell but you take away souls as well. Tampering with the mind/soul is evil because it is what makes humans different from animals and is the most important part of the human being, to tamper with it is wrong on so many levels and it'll make God get even with you on your judgement day.

Awww do I haaaave to?

no, but it might be a good idea. ;)

The only officially Unforgivable Sin according to the Catholic Church is suicide, because there is no chance to repent after it is committed. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is also sometimes called an unforgivable sin, but this is not because it can't be forgiven, but because it is true Apostasy, in which the sinner does not wish or attempt to be forgiven.

The only officially Unforgivable Sin according to the Catholic Church is suicide, because there is no chance to repent after it is committed. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is also sometimes called an unforgivable sin, but this is not because it can't be forgiven, but because it is true Apostasy, in which the sinner does not wish or attempt to be forgiven.

so, Christ's sacrifice isn't enough then?

so, Christ's sacrifice isn't enough then?

Catholics believe that Christ's death gave us the ability to go to Heaven, but not that it guarantees entrance into Heaven. We believe that one's own actions decide whether or not one will reach Heaven. Mortal sins are sins which are so bad they reject God, and only through confession (or Baptism if they are not baptized already) can they be reconnected with God. Nothing short of a mortal sin can cause someone to go to Hell though. Examples of mortal sin are: Murder, Theft of very valuable or necessary things (theft of 100 dollars of medicine from a seriously ill person is just as bad or worse than stealing 1 million dollars from a wealthy person), Suicide, Blasphemy, Apostasy and other very serious things, the person's intention also effects whether or not it is a mortal sin.

nobody really knows who goes to hell, or what hell is, or if it even exists. *nod*

I know that, but according to the rules I read here said "If you believe in a god an blah blah blah, ya go to hell. the question isn't weither or not hell exist, its that the athletes, who are oustpokenly believe in god, realize theyv'e broken their god's rule.

Catholics believe that Christ's death gave us the ability to go to Heaven, but not that it guarantees entrance into Heaven.
Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


We believe that one's own actions decide whether or not one will reach Heaven.
1 John 1:8-9 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.


Mortal sins are sins which are so bad they reject God, and only through confession (or Baptism if they are not baptized already) can they be reconnected with God. Nothing short of a mortal sin can cause someone to go to Hell though.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ the Lord


Examples of mortal sin are: Murder, Theft of very valuable or necessary things (theft of 100 dollars of medicine from a seriously ill person is just as bad or worse than stealing 1 million dollars from a wealthy person), Suicide, Blasphemy, Apostasy and other very serious things, the person's intention also effects whether or not it is a mortal sin.
do you have any scriptural backing for that?

Romans 10:9-10 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.



1 John 1:8-9 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.



Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ the Lord



do you have any scriptural backing for that?

As I have said repeatedly (sorry starting to get just a bit annoyed with the 3 separate religious discussions) the Church does not claim its authority from Scripture, and that Sacred Tradition is enough for the Church's teachings. I'm not saying we earn Heaven, but I am saying we can lose it. Also, if you want to just quote scripture:

James 2:14 My friends, what good is it for one of you to say you have faith of your actions do not prove it?

James 2:19 Do you believe there is only one God? Good! The Demons also believe- and tremble with fear.

Doesn't seem to me as if faith was enough for the Devil, hmm? Or would you say the Devil didn't believe in Christ until after he was already in Hell?

As I have said repeatedly (sorry starting to get just a bit annoyed with the 3 separate religious discussions) the Church does not claim its authority from Scripture, and that Sacred Tradition is enough for the Church's teachings. I'm not saying we earn Heaven, but I am saying we can lose it. Also, if you want to just quote scripture:
do you have any scriptural backing for your "traditions" or does someone just make them up and you go along with it?


Doesn't seem to me as if faith was enough for the Devil, hmm? Or would you say the Devil didn't believe in Christ until after he was already in Hell?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

we are saved by God's grace, freely given to us undeserving. Faith in Him is good, but useless without His grace.

John 10:7-10 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

I think Jesus might have mentioned "faith +" if it were true. In fact he says that He is the way and no other. If you can get yourself into heaven by works, then what is the need for a savior?

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

do you have any scriptural backing for your "traditions" or does someone just make them up and you go along with it?



Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

we are saved by God's grace, freely given to us undeserving. Faith in Him is good, but useless without His grace.

John 10:7-10 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

I think Jesus might have mentioned "faith +" if it were true. In fact he says that He is the way and no other. If you can get yourself into heaven by works, then what is the need for a savior?

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1. Where is the scriptural basis for the scriptures? Or did someone just write them down and you go along with it? Why do you claim the Bible to be correct and that which authority should come from?

2. James 2:26 So then, as the body without the spirit is dead, also faith without actions is dead.

That sums it up pretty well, faith is definitely necessary, as the other quotes you posted have shown, but faith without actions isn't enough.

Remember, I never said you can earn your way into Heaven, or even that you had to do good things to get to Heaven. All I said was that you can reject God through sin and as a result not get to Heaven. If this were not the case, then wouldn't people basically be forced to go to Heaven? What I have said is that sin is a rejection of God, those who repent can be forgiven, but those who don't are basically saying, "I hate you, God, and I don't want anything to do with you."

So you are saying that if you are a Christian and renounce your faith, that is the unforgivable sin? I also read about that challenge.

Yay, I'm going to hell!

1. Where is the scriptural basis for the scriptures?
isn't that kind of circular? you trying to trap me? 2 Timothy 3:16-17


Or did someone just write them down and you go along with it?
I believe it's inspired.

Why do you claim the Bible to be correct and that which authority should come from?
because it said so. (the circular logic is killing me *dies*)


2. James 2:26 So then, as the body without the spirit is dead, also faith without actions is dead.

That sums it up pretty well, faith is definitely necessary, as the other quotes you posted have shown, but faith without actions isn't enough.

it is enough with grace. It's not going to be a very God glorifying walk if you really don't believe enough to put your faith into actions. That doesn't mean you are going to hell, or that your actions can get you into heaven.

Remember, I never said you can earn your way into Heaven, or even that you had to do good things to get to Heaven.
You said that our actions determine whether or not we get into heaven and that Christ's sacrifice isn't a guarantee, and that faith doesn't count. I am left to believe that you do think that you are the person who can work your way into heaven and that Jesus was just some dude who didn't really do anything for you.


All I said was that you can reject God through sin and as a result not get to Heaven. If this were not the case, then wouldn't people basically be forced to go to Heaven?
and that's why I say that the true unforgivable sin is to reject Jesus. It's the only one that you can't repent from, because if you did, you wouldn't be rejecting Jesus anymore would you?


What I have said is that sin is a rejection of God, those who repent can be forgiven, but those who don't are basically saying, "I hate you, God, and I don't want anything to do with you."
I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think that's what you have been saying up until this point. In fact you said that suicide was the unforgivable sin.

no, but it might be a good idea. ;)

Possibly.

But I've never really understood the "repent or be damned" mentality. I mean, can you honestly say that a mass-murderer who repents is more worthy of salvation than, say, Gandhi?

Possibly.

But I've never really understood the "repent or be damned" mentality. I mean, can you honestly say that a mass-murderer who repents is more worthy of salvation than, say, Gandhi?

nobody is worthy of salvation, God's grace is a free gift, you only have to accept it.

isn't that kind of circular? you trying to trap me? 2 Timothy 3:16-17



I believe it's inspired.


because it said so. (the circular logic is killing me *dies*)




it is enough with grace. It's not going to be a very God glorifying walk if you really don't believe enough to put your faith into actions. That doesn't mean you are going to hell, or that your actions can get you into heaven.


You said that our actions determine whether or not we get into heaven and that Christ's sacrifice isn't a guarantee, and that faith doesn't count. I am left to believe that you do think that you are the person who can work your way into heaven and that Jesus was just some dude who didn't really do anything for you.



and that's why I say that the true unforgivable sin is to reject Jesus. It's the only one that you can't repent from, because if you did, you wouldn't be rejecting Jesus anymore would you?



I agree with that sentiment, but I don't think that's what you have been saying up until this point. In fact you said that suicide was the unforgivable sin.

For the first three questions, I believe that the Pope is infallible with as much or more faith as I believe the Bible is inspired (which I do believe, not saying that I don't)

For the actions part, I apologize, you seem to have misunderstood me. I never intended to say that our actions could get us into heaven, by saying that it depended on us, I meant 1: You have to choose to accept Christ (a choice that is up to us) 2: If you sin against God, you are rejecting God and can go to Hell (sinning against God is also a choice that is up to us) Therefore while Christ made it possible for us to get to Heaven as I said in my original post, whether we get there depends on two choices that we ourselves make, so it depends on what we do.

Finally, suicide is the unforgivable sin because it is a sin that you can never repent for. All other sins can be forgiven because you can be sorry for them and repent and ask God's forgiveness. With suicide you are already dead so you can't do that.

Edit: Just noticed that last point. It is what I have been saying the whole time, any sufficiently serious sin is turning your back on God and saying that you hate him, whether or not you actually physically say that doesn't matter.

Finally, suicide is the unforgivable sin because it is a sin that you can never repent for. All other sins can be forgiven because you can be sorry for them and repent and ask God's forgiveness. With suicide you are already dead so you can't do that.
do you believe that you have to repent for each individual sin?

yeah, this one time I ran into a brick wall while riding my dire wolf across mount Valnalia and i fell unconscious....oh were talking about God?:confused:

betrayal, hard to forgive that.

do you believe that you have to repent for each individual sin?

Every individual Mortal Sin, yes. However as you are Protestant (I assume, sorry if I'm mistaken) you do not distinguish between mortal and venial sins. For Catholics some sins are mortal sins, those which turn your back on God, and others are venial (minor) sins. Venial sins do not condemn you to Hell (going to Hell for cutting in line would be pretty stupid). I believe on the different levels of sin we will probably just have to agree to disagree.

Vanarial sins do not condom you to hell? Youre perverted tolvarus.

But since the god is just as made up as the interpretation, interpreting the meanings of god differently does not make a difference at all.


You have a big surprise headed your way, are you ready?