NationStates Jolt Archive

http://au.news.yahoo.com/070404/2/12zw9.html

Heh, and the authorities still don't seem to realise that he probably pled guilty to reduce his sentence, since there was no way he would have got off anyway. :rolleyes:

What would happen if we simply let him go now he's back in the country and told the US to get stuffed?

That would reduce the credibility of the Australian legal system to zero. Which will also mean that people like Shappelle Corby et al will never be allowed to serve their sentence here (which in her case doesn't worry me, but in others it does).

I think nine months isn't too bad. That gives him time to recover and prepare for the rest of his life...and the media frenzy he'll have to deal with. But then, maybe it won't be so bad. If he sells his story intelligently, he could easily be a millionaire.

That would reduce the credibility of the Australian legal system to zero. Which will also mean that people like Shappelle Corby et al will never be allowed to serve their sentence here (which in her case doesn't worry me, but in others it does).

I think nine months isn't too bad. That gives him time to recover and prepare for the rest of his life...and the media frenzy he'll have to deal with. But then, maybe it won't be so bad. If he sells his story intelligently, he could easily be a millionaire.

too bad he can not sell his story

That would reduce the credibility of the Australian legal system to zero. Which will also mean that people like Shappelle Corby et al will never be allowed to serve their sentence here (which in her case doesn't worry me, but in others it does).

I think nine months isn't too bad. That gives him time to recover and prepare for the rest of his life...and the media frenzy he'll have to deal with. But then, maybe it won't be so bad. If he sells his story intelligently, he could easily be a millionaire.
So I suspected. Still, would be interesting. :p

In March this year, Hicks pleaded guilty to a charge of providing material support for terrorism and was sentenced to a total of seven years with all but six years and three months suspended.
Isn't this a typo? This sounds like he has nine months suspended and the rest in jail...

http://au.news.yahoo.com/070404/2/12zw9.html

Heh, and the authorities still don't seem to realise that he probably pled guilty to reduce his sentence, since there was no way he would have got off anyway. :rolleyes:

What would happen if we simply let him go now he's back in the country and told the US to get stuffed?

That would never happen, considering how far up the US arse our government is.

too bad he can not sell his story
Oh, yeah. Meh, I'm sure he can find a way around it. It's stupid that he shouldn't be allowed to make money out of it.

Isn't this a typo? This sounds like he has nine months suspended and the rest in jail...
I think that they reckon he spent most of that time in Gitmo already, so they just give him the rest he still has to go +/- various legal technicalities.

Oh, yeah. Meh, I'm sure he can find a way around it. It's stupid that he shouldn't be allowed to make money out of it.
Because ... you believe the right to make money trumps all other rights?

Or because he has not broken Australian law, so the Aus govt should not be able to restrict his rights at all?

Just curious.

What would happen if we simply let him go now he's back in the country and told the US to get stuffed?

Why should we? He's a terrorist.

Because ... you believe the right to make money trumps all other rights?
Well, almost all of them. In this case, what he does with his memories and experiences, who he tells them to and under what conditions is obviously his business and his business alone.

Or because he has not broken Australian law, so the Aus govt should not be able to restrict his rights at all?
I think the Australian government should keep very quiet on the whole thing. They haven't exactly covered themselves in glory as far as standing up for one of their citizens is concerned.

Why should we? He's a terrorist.
Not really. He's a convicted terrorist supporter, and nothing else.

Or would you actually say the Gitmo Process didn't bring forth the whole truth? :D

What I don't understand is 1) why they do nothing for Australian citizens accused of being drug smugglers while visiting Indonesia and 2) why they don't strongly advise Australians to stay the fuck out of Indonesia since I've heard SEVERAL times of people facing the death penalty for alleged drug trafficking.

What I don't understand is 1) why they do nothing for Australian citizens accused of being drug smugglers while visiting Indonesia and 2) why they don't strongly advise Australians to stay the fuck out of Indonesia since I've heard SEVERAL times of people facing the death penalty for alleged drug trafficking.

called not upsetting the apple cart which all most happen when we went to east timor in 1999

called not upsetting the apple cart which all most happen when we went to east timor in 1999

So in other words, "We know you're killing our citizens for no good reason -- but hey, what the hell?" and "Hey citizens, it's ok, go to the beach there even though we've got beaches ourselves -- but don't bother getting a return ticket?"

What I don't understand is 1) why they do nothing for Australian citizens accused of being drug smugglers while visiting Indonesia and 2) why they don't strongly advise Australians to stay the fuck out of Indonesia since I've heard SEVERAL times of people facing the death penalty for alleged drug trafficking.

I think I know where you're going with this, but to make sure...

Why should they? What's the relevance to the David Hicks situation?

So in other words, "We know you're killing our citizens for no good reason -- but hey, what the hell?" and "Hey citizens, it's ok, go to the beach there even though we've got beaches ourselves -- but don't bother getting a return ticket?"

yup thats the case now
some say we should have gone to war with them in 1999 or back in 1975 with the Invasion of timor

I think I know where you're going with this, but to make sure...

Why should they? What's the relevance to the David Hicks situation?

Doesn't seem like the Australian government is particularly interested in protecting its own citizens, period.

Doesn't seem like the Australian government is particularly interested in protecting its own citizens, period.

Hmm, I was wrong in my assumption :)

I don't see that. In the case of Indonesia, what can they really do except say "Don't smuggle drugs"?

And don't they do anything for those accused of drug smuggling? Consular services? Assistance in getting them lawyers? Those kinds of things?

Hmm, I was wrong in my assumption :)

I don't see that. In the case of Indonesia, what can they really do except say "Don't smuggle drugs"?

And don't they do anything for those accused of drug smuggling? Consular services? Assistance in getting them lawyers? Those kinds of things?

not really

not really

I haven't heard about this issue - would you happen to have any links, names or stories I could look at?

I haven't heard about this issue - would you happen to have any links, names or stories I could look at?

we don't have death penalty right but look how many overseas who are on death row from this link
http://www.nswccl.org.au/issues/death_penalty/death_row.php

Australians, with few exceptions, get very hypocritical about criminals, they believe that people who commit crimes in Australia should have the book thrown at them (any anything else not bolted down), but once an Australian finds himself accused by foreigners, the government they asked to prosecute with a vengeance they now ask to coddle and protect.

I mean, when the Commonwealth, or the states prosecute someone, and manages to get a conviction and a custodial sentence, the Commonwealth/states doesn't waste its time and our money coddling him, and making sure he's nice and comfortable, and gets a warm cup of milk each night, and reassuring his mum that he's OK. No, when the Commonwealth/states gets a crim, they lock him into the deepest darkest hole they can find, and leave him there with a few psychopaths.

Muhammad Dawood went to work with these terrorists of his own free will.

I don't know about the other Australians here, but the single largest expense in my pay packet goes to Canberra, and I am getting tired of seeing it used to protect criminals and terrorists overseas. I would rather it was used to prosecute and punish criminals and terrorists here.

If you want to leave the country, you should not expect the protection of the Australian government, especially if you feel like committing crimes, or working with terrorists.

we don't have death penalty right but look how many overseas who are on death row from this link
http://www.nswccl.org.au/issues/death_penalty/death_row.php

But what has this got to do with the australian government?

Doesn't seem like the Australian government is particularly interested in protecting its own citizens, period.

Not unless we're talking business owners.

So in other words, "We know you're killing our citizens for no good reason -- but hey, what the hell?" and "Hey citizens, it's ok, go to the beach there even though we've got beaches ourselves -- but don't bother getting a return ticket?"

Well the people who are on the death penalty list were actually convicted of smuggling drugs (hard drugs too, not like canabis).

I don't agree with the death penalty so that would be a very good thing to try to stop.

yup thats the case now
some say we should have gone to war with them in 1999 or back in 1975 with the Invasion of timor

Well the reason why we didn't do anything in '75 was because the g'ment kept a lid on it and got some stuff (like a certain oil/gas field) for keeping quiet.

If you want to leave the country, you should not expect the protection of the Australian government, especially if you feel like committing crimes, or working with terrorists.

Errr..... Haven't you ever heard of having national protection/support when overseas?

Not unless we're talking business owners.

QFT

But what has this got to do with the australian government?

they as much help as pissing on a fire when you face the death penalty

Well the reason why we didn't do anything in '75 was because the g'ment kept a lid on it and got some stuff (like a certain oil/gas field) for keeping quiet.

could got that by winning a war with them

Errr..... Haven't you ever heard of having national protection/support when overseas?

Is that even a rebuttal? Here I am criticising this system of governments molly-coddling criminals and terrorists overseas when at home, they would be prosecuted with a vengeance.

Telling me that the system that I criticise exists hardly rebuts my argument.

Actually Hicks first fought with the NATO sanctioned Kosovo Liberation Army, and later with rebels in Kashmir and later captured fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan. The thing is as far I have researched, he was motivated not as some evil killer but was inspired in the media and in world events to take a stand and fight against oppression all over the world, I saw a documentary regarding his life (yes, it was by the SBS;)) and he seemed to have a strong conviction of fighting against oppression, he actually wanted to go to Palestine also I believe. In fact watching the program I felt I could have done those things too.

You have to realize he pleaded guilty to a military trial very similar to those employed in military dictatorships for political show trials, the whole setup was made for Bush to give an example. He only pleaded to 'supporting terrorism', which is so vague it could have meant he gave a beer to a taliban freedom fighter. He never fired a shot, never killed or wounded anyone, or even attempted to, and he gave himself up. That is why all the charges by the military junta in Guantanamo were dropped when they realized evidence obtained through torture in such a public affair would be 'politically detrimental', that's how the process works, it works on will, not law.

they as much help as pissing on a fire when you face the death penalty unless you are useful as a media ploy

Corrected.

could got that by winning a war with them

Perhaps but that may have sparked off a dangerous situation and Indonesia could have easily built up a millitary with help of the soviet union and for not much gain (for Australia).

Is that even a rebuttal? Here I am criticising this system of governments molly-coddling criminals and terrorists overseas when at home, they would be prosecuted with a vengeance.

Telling me that the system that I criticise exists hardly rebuts my argument.

The point I was making is that people expect their country to try to help if they are arrested overseas. If the government doesn't and it doesn't have an excuse itwould be very costly to them.

Corrected.

only if it don't back fire on you
Perhaps but that may have sparked off a dangerous situation and Indonesia could have easily built up a millitary with help of the soviet union and for not much gain (for Australia).

but what would the USSR gain out of it

but what would the USSR gain out of it

Nothing, as usual. Just another third-world basket case economy that industrial Russia would have to pay heavy product subsidies to have yet another useless proxy state.

only if it don't back fire on you

Well they learn quickly.

but what would the USSR gain out of it

Well for starters if Indonesia wiped out our military and invaded then a significant element to containment of the soviets.

Having an ally in south-east asia would also help in preventing U.S from stopping a rise of stalinist communism in other countries and would serve as a victory at home.

Even if Australia wasn't invaded it would serve to bolster the ruling lot at home and help get all the other countries in the soviet bloc behind an objective (hopefully stopping protests about the flagging economy and demands for political change).

Nothing, as usual. Just another third-world basket case economy that industrial Russia would have to pay heavy product subsidies to have yet another useless proxy state.

Well I'd admit it wouldn't be good for the soviets in the first couple of years of a takeover of Indonesia but after that they would be very useful, both as a cheap workforce and well place base for further operations.

Well if were talking about the USSR here, what killed it was a lack of political will in it's populace and in the eastern bloc. During the cold war the only people who really had the inspirational and energic communist ideology (as in the internationalism) were mainly those causing trouble in western countries. In truth the USSR was towards the end nothing but imperial statist fascism at it's worst, and it was run by a bunch of mostly conservative dicks who didn't care for the people, socialism really got lost except (ironically enough) within the movements in western states, most of them today still have their jaws lying on their desks after the USSR politically collapsed in on itself.

Not really. He's a convicted terrorist supporter, and nothing else.

Or would you actually say the Gitmo Process didn't bring forth the whole truth? :D

He lobbed around an RPG launcher, he's a terrorist.

Just to confirm, that picture of him toting an RPG from from his time in the KLA, not the Taliban.

He lobbed around an RPG launcher, he's a terrorist.

just for that he a terrorist
so if i got hold of one with out a warhead and carry it all over the place i too be a terrorist

Well if were talking about the USSR here, what killed it was a lack of political will in it's populace and in the eastern bloc. During the cold war the only people who really had the inspirational and energic communist ideology (as in the internationalism) were mainly those causing trouble in western countries. In truth the USSR was towards the end nothing but imperial statist fascism at it's worst, and it was run by a bunch of mostly conservative dicks who didn't care for the people, socialism really got lost except (ironically enough) within the movements in western states, most of them today still have their jaws lying on their desks after the USSR politically collapsed in on itself.

Well I did call it stalinist...

just for that he a terrorist
so if i got hold of one with out a warhead and carry it all over the place i too be a terrorist

Well if you used it to threaten anyone but the federal liberal party (and only those who agree with Howard count) then you wouldn't be considered a terrorist.

Well if you used it to threaten anyone but the federal liberal party (and only those who agree with Howard count) then you wouldn't be considered a terrorist.

my luck i kill someone by given them a heart attack as they think its loaded

It's actually surprising easily to be a 'terrorist' in Australia, in fact I am almost certain I am.

Actually Hicks first fought with the NATO sanctioned Kosovo Liberation Army, and later with rebels in Kashmir and later captured fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan. The thing is as far I have researched, he was motivated not as some evil killer but was inspired in the media and in world events to take a stand and fight against oppression all over the world, I saw a documentary regarding his life (yes, it was by the SBS;)) and he seemed to have a strong conviction of fighting against oppression, he actually wanted to go to Palestine also I believe. In fact watching the program I felt I could have done those things too.

You have to realize he pleaded guilty to a military trial very similar to those employed in military dictatorships for political show trials, the whole setup was made for Bush to give an example. He only pleaded to 'supporting terrorism', which is so vague it could have meant he gave a beer to a taliban freedom fighter. He never fired a shot, never killed or wounded anyone, or even attempted to, and he gave himself up. That is why all the charges by the military junta in Guantanamo were dropped when they realized evidence obtained through torture in such a public affair would be 'politically detrimental', that's how the process works, it works on will, not law.

Excellent. I am inspired to research the case, after years of "one guy, what's it matter?"

Can you recommend sources?

The point I was making is that people expect their country to try to help if they are arrested overseas. If the government doesn't and it doesn't have an excuse itwould be very costly to them.

Again, is that a rebuttal? All you are doing is restating the problem I initially stated; that Australians seem to expect that when they break foreign laws, the Australian government should molly-coddle them. The government simply should not be doing that. If you commit crimes you should not expect any help.

Now, if Schapelle Corby was caught in Australia smuggling drugs, everyone except the pro-legalisation people would be howling for a long sentence, and going on about how drugs destroy people's lives, and the government will be only too eager to lock her away for years. The fact that she broke similar laws outside Australia does not make her action any different to being caught in Australia with the drugs, yet Australians (except me, and a few others apparantly) expect the government to go hell for leather to protect her.

The main lesson with David Hicks if the USA think you're a terrorist and throw you into Gitmo, don't expect any help until the next election.

Again, is that a rebuttal? All you are doing is restating the problem I initially stated; that Australians seem to expect that when they break foreign laws, the Australian government should molly-coddle them. The government simply should not be doing that. If you commit crimes you should not expect any help.

Any reason why there should be no aid to people overseas?

It is more that they expected to be treated. If the people do not have confidence in their country to at least try to help if they are caught overseas doing something criminal and the penalties are much harsher than they would get at home then they expect some kind of aid.

Not a rebuttal. Just stating the reality of the situation.

Any reason why there should be no aid to people overseas?

For one thing, they go of their own free will.

Can you give me a reason why a government which is expected to find, prosecute, and punish criminals at home is expected to molly-coddle criminals caught abroad?

It is more that they expected to be treated. If the people do not have confidence in their country to at least try to help if they are caught overseas doing something criminal and the penalties are much harsher than they would get at home then they expect some kind of aid.

It is more than they would expect had they been caught in Australia doing the same/similar things. In Australia, Australian governments are expected to find and punish criminals. Overseas, Australian governments are expected to molly-coddle criminals.

Actually it is more when people are overseas and being tried for something then most people here would expect a similar sentance than one here. Not exactly pandering to their every wish.

Oh, yeah. Meh, I'm sure he can find a way around it. It's stupid that he shouldn't be allowed to make money out of it.


He should be allowed to make money. On the other hand, Hicks seems to be a rather stupid individual, so I'm not sure if it would make any difference.

Actually it is more when people are overseas and being tried for something then most people here would expect a similar sentance than one here. Not exactly pandering to their every wish.

They expect the foreign authorities to impose such a sentence.

I am talking about what they expect from the Australian government (which I subtly hinted at in such statements as "Overseas, Australian governments are expected to molly-coddle criminals.", and "Australians seem to expect that when they break foreign laws, the Australian government should molly-coddle them"), and Australians expect that when an Australian is prosecuted, even caught red-handed, the government should molly-coddle him, and generally do their best to get him/her out.

Actually Hicks first fought with the NATO sanctioned Kosovo Liberation Army, and later with rebels in Kashmir and later captured fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan. The thing is as far I have researched, he was motivated not as some evil killer but was inspired in the media and in world events to take a stand and fight against oppression all over the world, I saw a documentary regarding his life (yes, it was by the SBS;)) and he seemed to have a strong conviction of fighting against oppression, he actually wanted to go to Palestine also I believe. In fact watching the program I felt I could have done those things too.

You have to realize he pleaded guilty to a military trial very similar to those employed in military dictatorships for political show trials, the whole setup was made for Bush to give an example. He only pleaded to 'supporting terrorism', which is so vague it could have meant he gave a beer to a taliban freedom fighter. He never fired a shot, never killed or wounded anyone, or even attempted to, and he gave himself up. That is why all the charges by the military junta in Guantanamo were dropped when they realized evidence obtained through torture in such a public affair would be 'politically detrimental', that's how the process works, it works on will, not law.
I don't think that some people see him as some nice guy idealist should get him out of the consequences for what he did. I think that voluntarily providing support for the enemy should be punished serverely regardless of wether he killed anyone. He assisted the Taliban, who is fighting against the NATO coalition which includes his own country. If a British national did something like that I'd want him charged with treason, regardless of the level of support he provided. Though I think it would have sorted a lot of problems if they just gunned him down there and then.

And if you could imagine yourself doing something like that.... what's stopping you?

"Molly-coddle" :D

"Molly-coddle" :D

Usually the penalty for gross stupidity is death. Mr. Hicks somehow managed to avoid that, despite his predilection for doing the stupid thing as hard and as often as possible.

Usually the penalty for gross stupidity is death. Mr. Hicks somehow managed to avoid that, despite his predilection for doing the stupid thing as hard and as often as possible.

For better and worse, you are wrong. There is no penalty for stupidity, there is only the consequence of your stupid act. Luckily for many people :)



"Remote Observer" :D

just for that he a terrorist
so if i got hold of one with out a warhead and carry it all over the place i too be a terrorist

Be careful what you pick up at the tip!:

SMH's $2 rocket-launcher story. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/2-rocket-launcher-found/2007/01/03/1167777123211.html)

Be careful what you pick up at the tip!:

SMH's $2 rocket-launcher story. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/2-rocket-launcher-found/2007/01/03/1167777123211.html)

man can they found the right photo of what we use

man can they found the right photo of what we use

You read the article?

That's just too funny for words

You read the article?

i know all about the missing M72 LAWs

i know all about the missing M72 LAWs
O RLY? <.< >.>

*is suspicious*

i know all about the missing M72 LAWs

That means nothing to me I'm afraid. Don't care much if the SMH had a picture of the right thing either.

I was kind of joking, but if there was a serious point there it was: if a mate suggested I pose with a rocket launcher while they took a pic, I'd be game. Anyone who wants to lock me up for "training with Al-qaida" for that would be rather foolishly taking a fun-loving hothead and turning them into a real-life, let's-kill-the-prime-minister-type terrorist.

Hear about the doctor in the US entrapped by the FBI?
IT'S THREADWORTHY! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6678855.stm)

I think Hicks was a coward for buckling and taking a plea.

That means nothing to me I'm afraid. Don't care much if the SMH had a picture of the right thing either.

I was kind of joking, but if there was a serious point there it was: if a mate suggested I pose with a rocket launcher while they took a pic, I'd be game. Anyone who wants to lock me up for "training with Al-qaida" for that would be rather foolishly taking a fun-loving hothead and turning them into a real-life, let's-kill-the-prime-minister-type terrorist.

Hear about the doctor in the US entrapped by the FBI?
IT'S THREADWORTHY! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6678855.stm)

I think Hicks was a coward for buckling and taking a plea.

so the fact it was not load,but those with no idea would think that

so the fact it was not load,but those who read the paper but cannot read would think that

corrected.

corrected.

not really their some who have the facts in front of them and still say it blue

not really their some who have the facts in front of them and still say it blue

Yeah :(

But if I had to choose between these:

People are stupid and the media is wasted on them
The media is stupid and people shouldn't waste time watching/reading/listening-to-it


... I would frankly choose the former. The truth is probably more like "we get what we continue to buy"

aaaaand cue the Neu. Bring it Leonstein, own us all.

Yeah :(
sad thing is i'am watching someone deal with someone like that
But if I had to choose between these:

People are stupid and the media is wasted on them
The media is stupid and people shouldn't waste time watching/reading/listening-to-it


... I would frankly choose the former. The truth is probably more like "we get what we continue to buy"

aaaaand cue the Neu. Bring it Leonstein, own us all,
well said

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;12675683']
And if you could imagine yourself doing something like that.... what's stopping you?
Alot actually, the fact that I know how war really changes nothing being the most prevalent. That doesn't mean I don't admire people for standing up to fight for what they believe in and is right, and to fight oppression.

The money($500,000 Au) to bring that sack of shit hicks back to Australia, should have been raised from his socialist swine mates here in Australia, not the decent Australian taxpayer, who's values whom Hicks went overseas to help fight against.
If he thinks he will have a happy life when he gets out of Yatala jail, I laugh because every decent Aussie will want knock his socialist rat block off every time they see him.
HICKS FUCK OFF!