NationStates Jolt Archive

The new immigration reform bill heads for Senate debate Monday. Some on the left and right don’t support it. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070518immig,1,712948.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed
There are those on the left that want to make it less stringent. The proposal calls for illegal immigrants who were in the U.S. before Jan. 1, 2007 to pay a $5,000.00 fine and the head of household must return to their country of origin where they will apply for and be granted a work visa. They can then return to the U.S. legally and get citizenship in 8 to 13 years. Some are calling these measures to hard. Those on the right, say the proposed bill is too soft and is a form of amnesty. I even read an article (that I can’t find now) that there were some Mexicans who oppose the bill. They have been trying to enter the U.S. legally and feel it is unfair that those who entered illegally will jump to the head of the line.

There is also a provision for guest workers that will be given temporary visas but not be allowed to bring their family members with them. Family members will be allowed to come into the country for a limited vacation.

The new bill also contains a point system, similar to what Canada has now, for new applicants. Family members of citizens will not necessarily get priority over other people. Those with more skills and education will get more points.

I’m not sure if this compromise bill is good or not. I hate to see those that are already here illegally given priority over those who want to come in legally. I don’t see the bill as a form of amnesty because they do have to pay a fine and apply for a visa. I don’t want the U.S. to say, “OK, you’re here and you can stay” which is what the left wants. On the other hand, the right wants to “Deport ‘em all” which is impossible. Perhaps this is a good compromise.

What think you?

Better than nothing. Not very good all the same. I believe that we need to take two steps: the first is to make it easier to immigrate legally (which this bill does very, very poorly), and the second is to make it harder to immigrate illegally (Which this bill takes little action on). However, I'll support it over a GoP only option, and I'm glad to see that Mr. 28% is making a fool out of himself in front of his base.

There's no way that your average illegal immigrant can afford a $5000 fine. Even in Westchester County (an NYC suburb, one of the richest in the country) the average income of an illegal is $12,000 a year. They don't own houses, of coruse -- instead, they share living spaces with two other illegals and only get the bed for 8 hours of the day.

...that, and I get a scary mental image of the republicans collecting $5000 fines, sending them back home, and then refusing to let them back in. >_<

Should I point out that the proposed wall on the Mexican border sounds eerily similar to the wall on Israel's borders?

it's either this or nothing, nothing isn't working, I don't like this, but I haven't been able to read it yet, anyway, something is almost always better than nothing so I am giving it the benefit of doubt until a time when I can actually read it.

Certainly it is very far from the best policy.

At the moment I'm not sure whether or not it's better than the available alternatives.

it's either this or nothing, nothing isn't working, I don't like this, but I haven't been able to read it yet, anyway, something is almost always better than nothing so I am giving it the benefit of doubt until a time when I can actually read it.

Check back in after you have had time to read more about it and let us know what you think. By the way, how are things going around or close to OKC? I thought you quit the General thread. :)

Certainly it is very far from the best policy.

At the moment I'm not sure whether or not it's better than the available alternatives.

What do you tink would be the best policy?

What do you tink would be the best policy?

Full amnesty, more or less immediate citizenship, and open borders.

Check back in after you have had time to read more about it and let us know what you think.
I have read a lot about it, I want to read it.



By the way, how are things going around or close to OKC? I thought you quit the General thread. :)
I quit, I am not here, you are insane, (you quit too hypocrite)

Things I don't like about the bill.

Rewarding those who broke the law and penalizing those who are obeying the law? no way.

Unlimited renewals? heck no.

merits by education and skills? rather uneasy about that.

I'd rather round up the illegals, boot them from the country then use all the freed up money they were leeching and use it to help train homeless people and those leeching the welfare system to fill the jobs that the illegals left open. Getting rid of the minimum wage laws would help too. Just an idea ...

Full amnesty, more or less immediate citizenship, and open borders.

We tried "full amnesty" once and didn't close the borders, so I presume you don't see a problem with the current situation and would retain the status quo.

I quit, I am not here, you are insane, (you quit too hypocrite)

You found me out. Not hypocrite, just an adict. :D

It's worth noting that, even if the bill (as it stands now) gets passed, nothing happens until the provisions for securing the border happen.

I don't like the idea of full amnesty, but they're not getting that. I like the idea of the new points system, but there's not really enough info right now on what exactly it requires for me to form a full opinion.

I really don't think opening the border is going to help the situation. Rather than having an illegal population of usually unskilled labor living in poverty, we'd have a legal population of usually unskilled labor living in poverty. Sure, they'd have access to our programs to help the impoverished, but that won't solve the problems in crime and drug trafficking that comes (unintended) on the tails of this population.

I'd rather round up the illegals, boot them from the country then use all the freed up money they were leeching and use it to help train homeless people and those leeching the welfare system to fill the jobs that the illegals left open. Getting rid of the minimum wage laws would help too. Just an idea ...

Kind of hard to round up and deport 12 million + individuals and their famalies and deport them. Kind of expensive too.

Some homless may want to remain homless as not all of them are fully mentally competent. However, training programs for those who want the training is not a bad idea at all.

For those who are leeching the welfare system...like two of my grand-nieces...well...that does need to be fixed but it's a seperate issue.

Getting rid of the minimum wage? I'm not sure about that although I do lean toward letting the labor market sourt out what the wage should be.

Let's not forget the diseases they will bring in. I just love contracting TB ... so much fun.

Not sure about this bill. I know something must give for those who are here illegal and trying to make it. I know my grandpa came here from Germany the right way and his family didn't sneak through the back door. Our nation is made of differant nation thats makes as set a part.

Full amnesty, more or less immediate citizenship, and open borders.
When I see mexico open their borders then perhaps, but they are even more border strict then most of our worst ideas. We shouldn't make deals with anymore Hyprocrites then we already do.

We tried "full amnesty" once

Only we didn't open the borders.

and didn't close the borders,

Legally, the borders are closed right now; we strictly regulate immigration.

so I presume you don't see a problem with the current situation

You presumption is absurd.

When I see mexico open their borders

Why do you care what Mexico does?

Rather than having an illegal population of usually unskilled labor living in poverty, we'd have a legal population of usually unskilled labor living in poverty.

Who would be worse off elsewhere; otherwise, they wouldn't come.

but that won't solve the problems in crime and drug trafficking that comes (unintended) on the tails of this population.

Immigrants actually commit crimes at a much lower rate than the rest of the population.

"Another study released Monday by the Washington-based Immigration Policy Center showed that immigrant men ages 18 to 39 had an incarceration rate five times lower than native-born citizens in every ethnic group examined. Among men of Mexican descent, for instance, 0.7% of those foreign-born were incarcerated compared to 5.9% of native-born, according to the study, co-written by UC Irvine sociologist Ruben G. Rumbaut."

Immigrants boost pay, not prison populations, new studies show (http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-me-immigstudy28feb28,1,1960754,full.story?ctrack=2&cset=true)

Who would be worse off elsewhere; otherwise, they wouldn't come.



Immigrants actually commit crimes at a much lower rate than the rest of the population.

"Another study released Monday by the Washington-based Immigration Policy Center showed that immigrant men ages 18 to 39 had an incarceration rate five times lower than native-born citizens in every ethnic group examined. Among men of Mexican descent, for instance, 0.7% of those foreign-born were incarcerated compared to 5.9% of native-born, according to the study, co-written by UC Irvine sociologist Ruben G. Rumbaut."

Immigrants boost pay, not prison populations, new studies show (http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-me-immigstudy28feb28,1,1960754,full.story?ctrack=2&cset=true)

Didn't say they wouldn't be better off, I just said that they'd still be in poverty. Sure, not the crippling poverty of Mexico, but poverty nonetheless.

The immigrants themselves may commit crimes at a lower rate than the rest of the population, however gangs and drugs still come into this country on their backs. It's entirely unintended on the part of the immigrant, these drug runners and gang members just prey on them. I don't see how opening the border would help that.

Kind of hard to round up and deport 12 million + individuals and their famalies and deport them. Kind of expensive too.not if you confiscate their property, and levy heavy fines on those that knowingly assist and harbor them.

Some homless may want to remain homless as not all of them are fully mentally competent. However, training programs for those who want the training is not a bad idea at all.

For those who are leeching the welfare system...like two of my grand-nieces...well...that does need to be fixed but it's a seperate issue.

Getting rid of the minimum wage? I'm not sure about that although I do lean toward letting the labor market sourt out what the wage should be.
agree with the training and leeching off of the system.

but getting rid of the minimum wage would just be wrong.

The new bill also contains a point system, similar to what Canada has now, for new applicants. Family members of citizens will not necessarily get priority over other people. Those with more skills and education will get more points.
We did that quiz in my Socials class, and not a single student would be allowed to immigrate into Canada.:p

The teacher marginally made it.

Didn't say they wouldn't be better off, I just said that they'd still be in poverty.

Yes, probably. At least for a while.

But this is not an argument against immigration.

I don't see how opening the border would help that.

It won't; if you let people in, there will always be at least some criminals with them.

Yes, probably. At least for a while.

But this is not an argument against immigration.



It won't; if you let people in, there will always be at least some criminals with them.

The poverty issue is more of a concern than an argument for me. I'm unsure about this bill all told.

The crime issue, however, is why I think we should at least police the border.

Here's my comprehensive solution to the illegal immigration problem (#1 must be done first, with 2a and 2b done simultaneously):

1: Heavy fines for employers that employ illegal immigrants
2a: Loosening of immigration laws so that the people that want to immigrate legally, can do so easier
2b: No free pass for people that are already here illegally (if you're already here, you've got to leave, then apply for legal status like everyone else)

Once #1 is accomplished (and a few employers made an example of), the employment of illegal immigrants won't be profitable anymore. The illegal immigrants would return to their home countries (as there would be no jobs here for them), and then they can immigrate the right way.

Why do you care what Mexico does?

Well, if Mexico wants the U.S. to open our borders, then why shouldn't Mexico open theirs? Wouldn't that be fair?

It's entirely unintended on the part of the immigrant, these drug runners and gang members just prey on them. I don't see how opening the border would help that.

I'm sure the drug runners would love open borders.

I'm sure the drug runners would love open borders."Closed borders" is not going to stop the Drug cartels.
"Zero tolerance" policy did not stop the Drug Cartels.
"The War on Drugs" did not stop the Drug Cartels.

the only thing that can stop the Drug Cartels is reducing the demand.

"Closed borders" is not going to stop the Drug cartels.
"Zero tolerance" policy did not stop the Drug Cartels.
"The War on Drugs" did not stop the Drug Cartels.

the only thing that can stop the Drug Cartels is reducing the demand.

You are correct.

Let's not forget the diseases they will bring in...

You don't have to breath the air then... :)

Ridiculous. Why give illegal any semantic worth if one then proceeds to pass an amnesty by proxy for "illegal" immigrants?

Well, if Mexico wants the U.S. to open our borders, then why shouldn't Mexico open theirs? Wouldn't that be fair?

We should not open our borders because Mexico wants us to. We should open our borders because it's the right thing to do.

And, yes, Mexico should do the same. But our decision to do so should not be contingent on theirs.

Yes. Si Se Puede!

Its a step towards the immigration problems of the U.S but its still not a very good bill.

Well, it's a step in the right direction, but I can't say I support it because I have a feeling that if it passes, progress will be stalled at least for a while.

"Closed borders" is not going to stop the Drug cartels.
"Zero tolerance" policy did not stop the Drug Cartels.
"The War on Drugs" did not stop the Drug Cartels.

the only thing that can stop the Drug Cartels is reducing the demand.

Well how would you set about decreasing the demand for drugs legally?

Well how would you set about decreasing the demand for drugs legally?

Easy: legalise 'em, make 'em available over the counter at pharmacists' at knock-down prices.

Pure shit, dirt cheap - you'd knock the bottom out of the drug lord's market in no time, and to top it all you could buy direct from the producers in places like the Ghan, thereby improving that nations' economy.

It's fucking win-win, people. :D

Easy: legalise 'em, make 'em available over the counter at pharmacists' at knock-down prices.

Pure shit, dirt cheap - you'd knock the bottom out of the drug lord's market in no time, and to top it all you could buy direct from the producers in places like the Ghan, thereby improving that nations' economy.

It's fucking win-win, people. :D

Hmm.... so the drug cartels would simply acquise to their own downfall? They wouldn't innovate extant drugs, and invent wholly new substances? In one fell swoop, you believe you would do away with the third most profitable trade on the planet? naive?

Easy: legalise 'em, make 'em available over the counter at pharmacists' at knock-down prices.

Pure shit, dirt cheap - you'd knock the bottom out of the drug lord's market in no time, and to top it all you could buy direct from the producers in places like the Ghan, thereby improving that nations' economy.

It's fucking win-win, people. :D

Hmm.... so the drug cartels would simply acquise to their own downfall? They wouldn't innovate extant drugs, and invent wholly new substances? In one fell swoop, you believe you would do away with the third most profitable trade on the planet? naive?

We are getting way off topic here folks.

Hmm.... so the drug cartels would simply acquise to their own downfall? They wouldn't innovate extant drugs, and invent wholly new substances? In one fell swoop, you believe you would do away with the third most profitable trade on the planet? naive?

Sure, they'd move into different crimes, but it would knacker their base of operations. Look at what happened to the bootleggers when Prohibition got the axe.

Besides, I triple-dare them to try and come up with weirder shit than anything brewed by bored chemistry students on government funding. :p

Topic? Whassa'? :confused:

You don't have to breath the air then... :)

Sounds good, I'll wait till you contract all of the diseases for me then I'll take of the mask to breath clean air again. It's so kind of you to take one for the team. We appreciate it.

Things I don't like about the bill.

Rewarding those who broke the law and penalizing those who are obeying the law? no way.

Unlimited renewals? heck no.

merits by education and skills? rather uneasy about that.

Those are my problems with it as well.

As much as I want to support this bill, I cannot do so.

Well, if Mexico wants the U.S. to open our borders, then why shouldn't Mexico open theirs? Wouldn't that be fair?

I believe so.

Well, if Mexico wants the U.S. to open our borders, then why shouldn't Mexico open theirs? Wouldn't that be fair?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Better than nothing. Not very good all the same. I believe that we need to take two steps: the first is to make it easier to immigrate legally (which this bill does very, very poorly), and the second is to make it harder to immigrate illegally (Which this bill takes little action on). However, I'll support it over a GoP only option, and I'm glad to see that Mr. 28% is making a fool out of himself in front of his base.


What Base? Dubya flushed it when he supported this nonsense.

I'd rather round up the illegals, boot them from the country then use all the freed up money they were leeching and use it to help train homeless people and those leeching the welfare system to fill the jobs that the illegals left open. Getting rid of the minimum wage laws would help too. Just an idea ...

How are they leeching money? For the most part they take up jobs at a cheap price, have to pay larger than average income tax because they cannot try to get a rebate and use almost no welfare systems because they cannot apply for them.