NationStates Jolt Archive


Afghan-Pak relations worsening...

Aryavartha
19-05-2007, 06:45
There was nothing much to speak about to begin with. It has regressed and regressed and has hit new lows.

And it looks like the recent border spats may not be sporadic one-off stuff....but may become a pattern..

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1811094.ece

Afghan soldiers mass on border, ready and willing to take on old foe

In the late-morning lull that followed the thump of shellfire and chatter of machineguns, the preparations for a small war seemed to be unfolding in the orchards and paddy fields beneath the towering Spingar mountain range.

Scores of heavily armed Afghan troops and fighters from special border police units – determined, professional and evidently spoiling for a fight – gathered around their senior officers for orders. Artillery men waited beside their 122mm field guns hidden among the mulberry groves. And in nearby village bazaars tribesmen clustered around their elders, asking for weapons of their own so that they could join the fray.

Yet the enemy was not the Taleban, nor an infiltrating column of al-Qaeda fighters. Instead, in the remote border district of ’Ali Kheyl in eastern Afghanistan, Afghan security forces have found themselves pitted against an older and bigger enemy: Pakistan.

Clashes between the two neighbours – two of the West’s biggest allies in the War on Terror – began here last Sunday morning when Paki-stani forces fired on an Afghan post at Toorgawe, a strategic point on the border. The fighting is the most serious of its kind for years.

Since Sunday evening there has been a build-up of forces in the contested zone as hundreds of regular Afghan soldiers from the 203rd “Thunder” Corps, who had been fighting the Taleban, have deployed to the area to reinforce the beleaguered border police, bringing with them heavy artillery sent up from Kabul. “We can’t wait any more,” Brigadier Sanaoull Haq, a staff officer in the corps, said. “Now if anything further happens we will reply in kind.”

Each side accuses the other of initiating the bombardments, which so far have left 13 Afghans dead and 51 wounded. Foreign diplomats in Kabul fear that the situation, which has united Afghan nationalist sentiment across every ethnic divide, may escalate. It threatens to wreck any semblance of security cooperation between the countries, to the detriment of Nato’s struggle with the Taleban.

Tension has been growing for months along the 1,615-mile (2,600km) border shared by the two nations. Afghanistan has consistently accused the ISI, Pakistan’s intelligence service, of equipping and training Taleban fighters in camps inside Pakistan, then allowing them to cross into Afghanistan.

Pakistan has recently started building a security fence in selected areas of the border, ostensibly to halt the flow of insurgents. This, in turn, has provoked more Afghan wrath.

The Kabul Government does not recognise the border, drawn up by the British in 1893. Named the Durand line after Sir Mortimer Durand, then Foreign Secretary of the British Indian Government, the demarcation was intended to divide warlike Pashtun tribes antipathetic to British influence. Now Afghanistan sees the security fence as the de facto consolidation of a border dividing them from tribal areas in Pakistan that they claim as their own.

“The Durand line is a suffocating imposition under which we suffer,” said General Abdur Rahman, the chief of Afghanistan’s border police, as he briefed his men at Ghumruk, a customs post near the contested section of frontier, on Thursday. Seven of his men have been killed since the fighting started, yet he insisted that his orders so far were only to defend Afghan territory.

“We have donated our men’s blood to keep even a single foot of Pakistan from stepping inside our border,” he added. “But our orders from the Interior Ministry are to hold our positions, avoid trouble, and not fire unless fired upon.”

There was no security fence being built by Pakistan at Toorgawe. Instead, the Afghans say that their police in the post were attacked without warning simply because of its desirable strategic location.

“Wherever they see one of our border positions on a high pass they try to influence it,” said Brigadier Haq. “Since the Mujahidin times the Pakistanis have thought our country is their own. Then the Taleban came and still the Pakistanis could put up border posts wherever they wanted.

“Now we have a central government and an army of our own and the Pakistanis are angry. They can’t tolerate us or our border.” In the initial absence of regular troops hundreds of Pashtun tribesmen from local villages rushed to support the Afghan border police during the attacks on Sunday.

“We were carrying rifles, axes and swords,” said Nawruz, one of the tribesmen who participated. “I took 15 men with me from my village. We got into a trench and started firing back at the Pakistani militia. One of my friends died beside me, killed by a Pakistani mortar round.”

On Monday a joint Afgh-an-American delegation flew across the border for talks with Pakistani officers aimed at producing a ceasefire. The meeting was held in a schoolhouse in Teri Mangel, a small town in the Kurram tribal area of Pakistan. Yet after the negotiations concluded the delegation was fired upon. An American soldier was killed and four others wounded.

Though Nato and Pakistan, keen to play down the incident, say the attack was the work of a single rogue member of a Pakistani militia, two Afghan delegates present as part of the delegation who were separately interviewed byThe Times, Governor Rahmatullah Rahman and Colonel Shamsur, say they were fired on by up to a dozen uniformed Pakistani militiamen.

“There were two groups of Pakistani militia shooting at us,” said Governor Rahmatullah. “One group was placed among rocks and it fired at the delegation as it drove from the school to be picked up by a helicopter. The other group fired at the delegation’s security guards in the school’s courtyard. The attackers were in uniform. I saw at least ten.”

Despite this attack, a border ceasefire held until Thursday, when renewed artillery exchanges began in the morning and lasted until midday. Though both the Pakistani militia in Kurram and the Afghans in ’Ali Kheyl are Pashtuns of the same Zazi tribe, their kinship seems to be no barrier to the desire to fight one another.

“When it is a question of territory or land even if it is your own brother you don’t care,” said Malik Khir Gul Khan, one of the Afghan tribal elders.

“Under our code of Pashtun-wali if your brother takes your house or land then you have to kill him or die trying.”

So far Nato and American-led coalition forces have kept their forces away from the area of fighting, though Captain Aziz, an Afghan army commander at Ghumruk, said on Thursday that he had seen an eight-man team of American troops move forward to observe the clashes until they, too, were shelled and withdrew.

Afghanistan’s 46,000-strong army is in no position to take on the military might of Pakistan, besides which diplomatic pressure on both countries makes it extremely unlikely that the scope of fighting will spread between regular forces. However, the fighting has sparked antiPakistani sentiment among the Afghan border tribes at a time when the fortunes of every foreign player trying to stabilise Afghanistan are dependent on the two neighbours cooperating.

“Only this morning I have had tribal elders offer me 400 men to fight the Pakistanis,” said Captain Aziz. “I have to keep ordering them to stay in their villages. Man, woman and child, in this area they are all ready to give their blood in a fight with Pakistan.”
Siempreciego
19-05-2007, 14:02
what is it about pakistan and playing nice with its neighbours?

now, finally when things are looking positive with india, they have to start this with afghanstan.
Rubiconic Crossings
19-05-2007, 14:27
On Newsnight they did a piece on Altaf Hussain (the so called Edgeware dissident).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/05/friday_18_may_2007.html

The Edgware dissident
Newsnight understands that one man, living in Edgware, may be masterminding a political campaign which could keep Pakistan's President Musharraf in power. Altaf Hussain is the leader of the Muttahida Quami Movement - MQM. He directs his flock via phone - when he talks thousands gather round in Pakistan to listen to him on loudspeaker.

But his critics - amongst them cricket legend turned opposition politician Imran Khan - say he shouldn't even be here. He accuses the British Government of giving sanctuary to a man whose party he alleges was linked to recent violence in Pakistan. Tonight we'll look at the Edgware operation, and speak to Imran Khan in Islamabad.

Sadly I cannot find the vid of the report. Imran Khan was near apoplectic with his condemnation of the UK and Musharraf.

Now I am not sure entirely sure if this guy is involved in the Afghan/Pakistan situation but one thing I am certain...he is not helping.

After all supporting Musharraf pretty much means that you are supporting the terror training camps and the infiltration of Afghanistan...well that how it looks from here...
Aryavartha
19-05-2007, 14:40
On Newsnight they did a piece on Altaf Hussain (the so called Edgeware dissident).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2007/05/friday_18_may_2007.html



Altaf is more like a mafia don than a political leader. The recent Karachi violence which left ~40 people dead were done by his goons - and of course masterminded by Musharraf who wanted to prevent the dismissed/suspended Chief justice from attending the rally.

Imran Khan was near apoplectic with his condemnation of the UK and Musharraf.

Now I am not sure entirely sure if this guy is involved in the Afghan/Pakistan situation but one thing I am certain...he is not helping.

Imran Khan is an opportunist. Remember the "Qur'an flushed in toilet" controvery? Most people don't know that it was this guy who started it all. He convened a press conference and showed the newsweek (?) magazine carrying the article (it was 2 weeks old at that time) and raised the issue. The mullahs then took the cue from him and it became a controversy.

He is acting very religious nowadays. Quite hypocritical considering his womanising and playboyish years in UK.
Newer Burmecia
19-05-2007, 14:59
Sadly I cannot find the vid of the report.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm

Top right hand corner.:D

After all supporting Musharraf pretty much means that you are supporting the terror training camps and the infiltration of Afghanistan...well that how it looks from here...
I won't say there aren't people in both the Pakistani government, at whatever level, and Army who do turn a blind eye to the infiltration of Afghanistan and training camps, because there are, but I don't think that Musharraf himself is responsible for them. It may be a military dictatorship, but I'm not sure that the central government has quite the authority that it has in Islamabad in the Tribal areas.

I do also vaguely remember something in the news about Pakistan mining the Afghan border to deal with the problem. I'll try and dig it up.

However, I don't think Pakistan will be able to survive as a go-between between the West and Islamist forces their are inside Pakistan for long. Either the government makes stronger moves against Islamism, or it will lose international support and fail. Hopefully, the Islamist parties won't too well at this year's elections, but I doubt they mean much...
Rubiconic Crossings
19-05-2007, 15:02
Altaf is more like a mafia don than a political leader. The recent Karachi violence which left ~40 people dead were done by his goons - and of course masterminded by Musharraf who wanted to prevent the dismissed/suspended Chief justice from attending the rally.

Imran Khan is an opportunist. Remember the "Qur'an flushed in toilet" controvery? Most people don't know that it was this guy who started it all. He convened a press conference and showed the newsweek (?) magazine carrying the article (it was 2 weeks old at that time) and raised the issue. The mullahs then took the cue from him and it became a controversy.

He is acting very religious nowadays. Quite hypocritical considering his womanising and playboyish years in UK.

I admit I am not really that familiar with Altaf and his 'thing'....but it does not come as a surprise to me that a criminal is also involved in politics...but usually they are not as blatant as this guy.

Khan is an opportunist...I understand that completely...I remember soon after the marriage to the Goldsmith woman he was ranting about building a high tech hospital for terminally ill children (mainly)...I guess nothing came of that either.

I am not sure that the religion thing is entirely valid bearing in mind that there are many cases of people who in their earlier years were hell raisers but then took up the calling...of course there are also those who do that just to show their piety...when in reality they are far from it.

Anyway I think I am creating some thread drift here...?

If so apologies.
Rubiconic Crossings
19-05-2007, 15:29
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm

Top right hand corner.:D

Yeah...I think thats for the entire show...and only lasts 24 hours...


I won't say there aren't people in both the Pakistani government, at whatever level, and Army who do turn a blind eye to the infiltration of Afghanistan and training camps, because there are, but I don't think that Musharraf himself is responsible for them. It may be a military dictatorship, but I'm not sure that the central government has quite the authority that it has in Islamabad in the Tribal areas.

Yeah...this is where my knowledge is lacking. I know that there are 'issues' in the outback so to speak but then again I suspect the Pakistani military could subdue those regions...maybe not bring them entirely under gov control but certainly make life uncomfortable...

I do also vaguely remember something in the news about Pakistan mining the Afghan border to deal with the problem. I'll try and dig it up.

!!! news to me !!!

Just googled that and it seems they 'proposed' and 'are planning'...a fence and mines...not sure its gone ahead though...


However, I don't think Pakistan will be able to survive as a go-between between the West and Islamist forces their are inside Pakistan for long. Either the government makes stronger moves against Islamism, or it will lose international support and fail. Hopefully, the Islamist parties won't too well at this year's elections, but I doubt they mean much...

Is Pakistan going to go 'Caliphate'? I guess thats the real question.

Of the handful of Pakistanis I know none are happy with the fundies....
Aryavartha
19-05-2007, 15:29
I won't say there aren't people in both the Pakistani government, at whatever level, and Army who do turn a blind eye to the infiltration of Afghanistan and training camps, because there are, but I don't think that Musharraf himself is responsible for them. It may be a military dictatorship, but I'm not sure that the central government has quite the authority that it has in Islamabad in the Tribal areas.

That's what Musharraf said about Kashmir jihadis too during the Kargil war.

http://www.iht.com/articles/1999/06/16/edsig.t.php
American officials privately acknowledge that India scored an intelligence coup when it intercepted a May 29 international telephone conversation between General Musharraf and the chief of the general staff in Islamabad, Lieutenant General Mohammed Aziz. A transcript of the conversation leaves little doubt as to the authenticity of the intercept.
.
It is replete with evidence indicating the grip of the armed forces over civilian politicians in Pakistan and the "freedom fighters." In one conversation General Aziz tells General Musharraf of an exchange in which an adviser to the prime minister expressed concern that the Islamic militants in the Kargil operation might force an escalation of the war. "We made clear," said General Aziz, "that there need be no such fear, since we have them by the scruff of the neck."

It's just a tactic to wash off his responsibility and/or extract more baksheesh. The army has the guns and means to clear taliban. But it lacks the will. Because Musharraf likes to keep his dogs to unleash them upon others.

The talibanis are openly operating from Quetta. If Musharraf can hunt down and kill Nawab Akber Bugti, who arguably had more public support in Balochistan, then there is no reason why he can clear up Quetta - where Mullah Omar is residing now according to many reports.

Quetta is not a tribal area with difficult mountainous terrain.
New Manvir
19-05-2007, 15:36
If Pakistan and Afghanistan went to war who would "the Taliban" and "Al-Qaeda"
side with?
Or would they just keep doing what they're doing?
Aryavartha
19-05-2007, 15:37
I admit I am not really that familiar with Altaf and his 'thing'....but it does not come as a surprise to me that a criminal is also involved in politics...but usually they are not as blatant as this guy.

Altaf is a leader of the Muhajir Quami Movement (MQM) which is a party of the urdu speaking migrants from India - who settled in Karachi and other areas in Sindh after partition.

It is true they were persecuted as outsiders and MQM was formed as a response and then you know the usual vicious cycle of violence and now it is at a stage where MQM means good things to muhajirs and bad things to others.

But Altaf is not popular outside his party and he runs Karachi like a mafia.

I remember soon after the marriage to the Goldsmith woman he was ranting about building a high tech hospital for terminally ill children (mainly)...I guess nothing came of that either.

They divorced. But he did build the hospital. Probably the only good thing he did.

of course there are also those who do that just to show their piety...when in reality they are far from it.

His is the "overt display of empty religiosity". Truly religious will not do the rabble-rousing that he does.
Newer Burmecia
19-05-2007, 15:58
That's what Musharraf said about Kashmir jihadis too during the Kargil war.

http://www.iht.com/articles/1999/06/16/edsig.t.php


It's just a tactic to wash off his responsibility and/or extract more baksheesh. The army has the guns and means to clear taliban. But it lacks the will. Because Musharraf likes to keep his dogs to unleash them upon others.

The talibanis are openly operating from Quetta. If Musharraf can hunt down and kill Nawab Akber Bugti, who arguably had more public support in Balochistan, then there is no reason why he can clear up Quetta - where Mullah Omar is residing now according to many reports.

Quetta is not a tribal area with difficult mountainous terrain.
Can't really disagree with that, I suppose.

And I found a couple of links to the mining thing, as I said in my previous post.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6254375.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6214513.stm
Rubiconic Crossings
19-05-2007, 15:58
Altaf is a leader of the Muhajir Quami Movement (MQM) which is a party of the urdu speaking migrants from India - who settled in Karachi and other areas in Sindh after partition.

Ahh thanks...(wondering out loud) .... minorities seem to bring their criminal elements with them - Italy - Mafia, Russians - whatever the name is for their organised crime gang etc)...but they seem to have a well establish organised crime element in their home country...is what you discribe the same kind of thing?

It is true they were persecuted as outsiders and MQM was formed as a response and then you know the usual vicious cycle of violence and now it is at a stage where MQM means good things to muhajirs and bad things to others.

Vicious cycle...good saying...and it is repeated all to often around the globe...


But Altaf is not popular outside his party and he runs Karachi like a mafia.

Someone has been reading Machiavelli!

They divorced. But he did build the hospital. Probably the only good thing he did.

Well thats great to hear. I remember it was a centerpiece of his wedding thang...but never heard if it had been built....

His is the "overt display of empty religiosity". Truly religious will not do the rabble-rousing that he does.

Hmmmm yes and no. I agree with the first part but the second...not really able to agree with that. Its an entirely subjective concept (truly religious)...