NationStates Jolt Archive

SAVE THE NETZ (http://therealwar.ytmnd.com/) shouts ytmnd.

Is what they say really happening? If so will this action at Savetheinternet.com help?

It is time to begin the Revolution...Nerds, Trekkies, and MIT graduates...to the batmobile...

damn i love that original GTA sound track.

glad i live in Canada

glad i live in Canada

Most sites are based in America, though.

Most sites are based in America, though.

That won't last if the US passes laws that make e-businesses relocate elsewhere.

Most sites are based in America, though.

but its all about AMERICAN ISP's changing around the speed to view sites, not Canadian one's.

SAVE THE NETZ (http://therealwar.ytmnd.com/) shouts ytmnd.

Is what they say really happening? If so will this action at Savetheinternet.com help?
As absurd as it sounds, yes, what they say is happening. Savetheinternet.com may help, but I seriously doubt the head honchos on capitol hill will care how many millions of people petition against net neutrality.

The guy who supported this amendment thought the internet was a series of tubes for christ sakes.

glad i live in Canada

Too bad all the asshat American telecoms own all the pretty little cables that run all the information to your country.

The guy who supported this amendment thought the internet was a series of tubes for christ sakes.

You know, maybe American Congress wouldn't be that big stink hole it is if all congress-critters were required to pass knowledge tests on stuff they're passing laws on.

I don't think it will pass, but write your congressmen, probably not via Email, but send a real letter. At most it will be 40 cents and some of your time.

Tell them Net Neutrality is the only way to keep the internet the way it is. Or else you'll see a toll booth on the internet and a very literal Big Brother.

Include this image as a demonstration of what could happen.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9580/internetfuturepq3.jpg

Too bad all the asshat American telecoms own all the pretty little cables that run all the information to your country.

If the Yanks bugger up the internet it'll just start to go around them. Losing net neutrality is the sort of law that will do little more then hold back American technological progress. The rest of the world will work around them and leave them behind.

If the Yanks bugger up the internet it'll just start to go around them. Net Neutrality is the sort of law that will do little more then hold back American technological progress. The rest of the world will work around them and leave them behind.
You're optimism is refreshing, but this issue deserve more than your apathy.
There's a lot of resources here, creative and otherwise. Surely you don't want to lose all that?

Just look at what happened to stem-cell research. It's been set back years because of the US's non-participation.

You're optimism is refreshing, but this issue deserve more than your apathy.
There's a lot of resources here, creative and otherwise. Surely you don't want to lose all that?

Just look at what happened to stem-cell research. It's been set back years because of the US's non-participation.

I understand that, 'more hands makes the load lighter' and all, but ultimately even if the development happens slower, it will still happen. Look at stem-cell research, because of US non-participation the centres of development in the field have been (for example) South Korea and now the US is starting to realize progress happens whether or not you like it to.

I don't think it will pass,
You underestimate the telecom lobby and seriously overestimate the technological intelligence of the legislature. but write your congressmen, probably

Just look at what happened to stem-cell research. It's been set back years because of the US's non-participation.

To a degree, yes, but it also advanced some related fields further; the scientific community is good at finding its way around restrictions placed on it by ignorant people. So, they realized that stem cell research would be impacted and focused instead on related fields, with the idea being that if they couldn't contribute directly they could focus on things related to it and still advance the field further.

You underestimate the telecom lobby and seriously overestimate the technological intelligence of the legislature. but write your congressmen, probably

Nobody ever went broke betting on the willingness of Congresspeople to sell out their constituents.

Nobody ever went broke betting on the willingness of Congresspeople to sell out their constituents.

I'm surprised most people don't realize that these guys' constituents are the lobbies and elite, not the voters.

I'm surprised most people don't realize that these guys' constituents are the lobbies and elite, not the voters.

How dare you criticize Democracy©! Corporations are people too. Big, rich, powerful people who deserve the right to change society to their benefit.

I'm surprised most people don't realize that these guys' constituents are the lobbies and elite, not the voters.

No kidding. The internet has been a force for change in recent years, which is no doubt why corporate lobbyists want to control it. I think they didn't understand what it was capable of in the beginning, and have seen it get out of their control and want to rein it in now. I hope we can keep it from happening.

Corporations are people too.

And that's the problem in a nutshell. If I could make one change to US law by snapping my fingers, it would be to remove corporate personhood.

No kidding. The internet has been a force for change in recent years, which is no doubt why corporate lobbyists want to control it. I think they didn't understand what it was capable of in the beginning, and have seen it get out of their control and want to rein it in now. I hope we can keep it from happening.
They don't care about any of that at all. They just want to increase profits, which this legislation will allow them to do.
They don't care about your freedoms or societal change. As long as you still buy their shit. Considering that most people with internet access only use if for ebaumsworld, porn, myspace and AIM, they've nothing to worry about.

They don't care about any of that at all. They just want to increase profits, which this legislation will allow them to do.
They don't care about your freedoms or societal change. As long as you still buy their shit. Considering that most people with internet access only use if for ebaumsworld, porn, myspace and AIM, I don't think anyone is worried about change.

They're worried because the internet has already shown itself to be a powerful organizing tool against corporate dominance of the legislative process. It's easier for telecoms to get favorable legislation passed if those pesky internet types aren't getting their messages to Congress and out to the general public.

And that's the problem in a nutshell. If I could make one change to US law by snapping my fingers, it would be to remove corporate personhood.

As would I. You should support me for supreme world dictator. Vote Supreme Dictator and President for Life, Field Marshal, Air Marshal and Fleet Admiral, Dr. Dimitri Romanov, Master of the Known Universe, Lord of all Beasts, Fishes, Birds, Plants, Minerals and leader of the Revolution of International Betterment, it's the last vote you'll ever need to make.

As would I. You should support me for supreme world dictator. Vote Supreme Dictator and President for Life, Field Marshal, Air Marshal and Fleet Admiral, Dr. Dimitri Romanov, Master of the Known Universe, Lord of all Beasts, Fishes, Birds, Plants, Minerals and leader of the Revolution of International Betterment, it's the last vote you'll ever need to make.

Promise to make me Poet Laureate and you've got a deal. I figure if I've got that, I've got tenure, and then even you can't get rid of me. ;)

They're worried because the internet has already shown itself to be a powerful organizing tool against corporate dominance of the legislative process. It's easier for telecoms to get favorable legislation passed if those pesky internet types aren't getting their messages to Congress and out to the general public.

I really don't think they care about that. It isn't a concern. Paris Hilton's petition to keep her out of jail got more attention on the internet than any anti-corporate hooha.

Corporations and the government used to be hide information from the people because they feared them. Now idiocy, complacency and apathy have made their deceit more tradition than anything else.

Promise to make me Poet Laureate and you've got a deal. I figure if I've got that, I've got tenure, and then even you can't get rid of me. ;)

Deal.

So far I have a Minister of Health, Minister of Partying Down and Poet Laureate. I'm halfway to a full cabinet. Hear that UN, suck my caucus.

If the Yanks bugger up the internet it'll just start to go around them. Losing net neutrality is the sort of law that will do little more then hold back American technological progress. The rest of the world will work around them and leave them behind.
But it would kill Silicon Valley in the process. Which would be a pretty powerful example for the other countries to learn from. That Valley probably has a GDP higher than many countries.

And that's the problem in a nutshell. If I could make one change to US law by snapping my fingers, it would be to remove corporate personhood.

the end of corporate personhood would, effectively, be the end of corporations.

the end of corporate personhood would, effectively, be the end of corporations.

Uh, good?

the end of corporate personhood would, effectively, be the end of corporations.

And maybe it'll start bringing back personal responsibility in the business world.

the end of corporate personhood would, effectively, be the end of corporations.

And? I fail to see the downside of that. Corporations could still exist as machines, but they would cease to be a thing which decision makers in those corporations hide behind to avoid responsibility for breaking laws.

The problem is the vast amount of corporations in this country are small. Probably singley owned and operated. As much as we see the laws that protect owners and managers of large corporations, in what we perceive as bad ways, those laws also function to protect slews of people who own smaller businesses.

I know we have this image of all corporations being giant buisnesses that make billions, but it's simply not true. The laws that protect corporations are invaluable to the small buisness owners.

The problem is the vast amount of corporations in this country are small. Probably singley owned and operated. As much as we see the laws that protect owners and managers of large corporations, in what we perceive as bad ways, those laws also function to protect slews of people who own smaller businesses.

I know we have this image of all corporations being giant buisnesses that make billions, but it's simply not true. The laws that protect corporations are invaluable to the small buisness owners.

It has to be possible to remove the corporation's personhood and still leave in protections for business owners so they don't lose their houses if the business goes under. When corporations were first begun, they were chartered for limited periods of time--there's no reason that can't happen again. They were meant to limit liability, not remove it completely.

No kidding. The internet has been a force for change in recent years, which is no doubt why corporate lobbyists want to control it. I think they didn't understand what it was capable of in the beginning, and have seen it get out of their control and want to rein it in now. I hope we can keep it from happening.

The elite never understand the power of new technology...there's reasons why they like to keep the status quo. They are simply not good at adapting to change; they would prefer things stay the way they are so that they can continue to wield power over the environment they've learned to manipulate. Anything that increases freedom of information or offers a venue for change is a threat to them, and they try to control it using seemingly innocuous methods that really end up screwing people over.

The internet needs an overhaul, for sure, but removing net neutrality isn't going to solve the problem (although it would be nice if companies like Google and Yahoo branched in to telecommunications just to knock out another part of their argument for tiered service). All that will do is hurt the system more and damage the ability of companies to innovate and develop the internet in the United States.

They were meant to limit liability, not remove it completely.

Ahh, but therein we have a problem. The concept of "limited liability" has its own mechanism, the LLC, quite literally, limited liability corporation.

HOWEVER where I would agree with you is remove the shield of liability for torts of recklessness, knowledge, or intent.

Ahh, but therein we have a problem. The concept of "limited liability" has its own mechanism, the LLC, quite literally, limited liability corporation.

HOWEVER where I would agree with you is remove the shield of liability for torts of recklessness, knowledge, or intent.

But unless there's some other benefit to using an LLC, why would anyone ever take that option when they can get rid of their liability completely by foisting it off onto this imaginary person? I'm not saying all business owners go into business with bad intents, but we have to make law under the assumption that some will.

But unless there's some other benefit to using an LLC, why would anyone ever take that option when they can get rid of their liability completely by foisting it off onto this imaginary person? I'm not saying all business owners go into business with bad intents, but we have to make law under the assumption that some will.

more risk more control is the easy answer to that. once you have passed on liability to a corporate entity, in its entirety, then you become obligated to that entity.

It's somewhat inherent in the concept of fiduciary duty. Because in an LLC, the corporation is not a fully legal entity, but some of the liability is half yours, you are not required to so fully follow the various requirements of fiduciary duties.

But it would kill Silicon Valley in the process. Which would be a pretty powerful example for the other countries to learn from. That Valley probably has a GDP higher than many countries.

You assume Silicon Valley wouldn't up and relocate else where. I hear Southern Ontario is nice around this time of year. *hint hint*

You assume Silicon Valley wouldn't up and relocate else where. I hear Southern Ontario is nice around this time of year. *hint hint*
Maybe. Internet in Canada is rather, um, slow. I'm sure that allot of people would prefer Canada due to cultural similarity and want to end up in Ontario or BC, but our ISP's could send them all to Europe.

Maybe. Internet in Canada is rather, um, slow. I'm sure that allot of people would prefer Canada due to cultural similarity and want to end up in Ontario or BC, but our ISP's could send them all to Europe.
Hong Kong has 100% broadband coverage, 17.5% business tax, pretty much 1/2 way between US and Europe via Asia, a very high-tech-and-savvy populace and an extremely business-friendly local govt.
catch all that, Silicon valley?

Hong Kong has 100% broadband coverage, 17.5% business tax, pretty much 1/2 way between US and Europe via Asia, a very high-tech-and-savvy populace and an extremely business-friendly local govt.
catch all that, Silicon valley?
Canada has the capacity, it is just that Shaw got pretty much MS style dominant and was allow to stagnate for a while.

Hong Kong has 100% broadband coverage, 17.5% business tax, pretty much 1/2 way between US and Europe via Asia, a very high-tech-and-savvy populace and an extremely business-friendly local govt.

Yeah, but they can afford it because they don't need to maintain bloated government spending on all levels of the government. They're a pretty clear sign that low taxes, small government, and business-friendly free market policies work better than any of the crap we have now.

If it passes I'm sure they'll be around 20 Million pissed off hackers, Those congressmen can kiss their bribe cash goodbye.

You underestimate the telecom lobby and seriously overestimate the technological intelligence of the legislature. but write your congressmen, probably You underestimate the amount of lobbists that are against the telecom lobby's goal.

If the internet Christian Colitition can unite with the Pro-choice sites over this then the deal should be doomed.

Neither side wants to lose their voting base.

the end of corporate personhood would, effectively, be the end of corporations.
I fail to see a downside...

uh... is there something still going on with Net Nuetrality that I missed? Its completely feasible as I haven't been paying attention to much in a while... but as far as I know at the moment this was pretty much done a long time ago.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/28/net_neutrality_commerce_vote/

oh and here's a nice read from way back when on it.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/17/net_neut_slow_death/

So, they realized that stem cell research would be impacted and focused instead on related fields, with the idea being that if they couldn’t contribute directly they could focus on things related to it and still advance the field further.
That, and now stem cell research scientists are flocking to Europe and East Asia.

Too bad the POTUS is against one of the most promising fields in modern medicine, but we'll take the credit. Not that it'll stop European and Asian corporations from patenting and exploiting any research made.

They can try and take out internets, but we'll just set the /b/tards on them. They'll make Habbo Hotel look like a diplomatic mission.

Too bad all the asshat American telecoms own all the pretty little cables that run all the information to your country.

Um....not sure that is entirely correct...but I am also not entirely sure what you are trying to say either!

If you mean outbound from the US to say LONEX then yes they would have been laid by a US company for the most part. Then again there are non US companies that also have cabling like Equant (for their SITA MTN network) to the US.

Now from LONEX to say Amsterdam...chances are its not a US company. It really depends...for example KPN/QWEST (joint venture) linked some 40 european cities together...the cabling was laid by KPN and the nations telco (like DT or BT or KPN).

Didn't Net Neutrality die a quick and painful death a few months back?

And that's the problem in a nutshell. If I could make one change to US law by snapping my fingers, it would be to remove corporate personhood.

Quoted For the Motherfucking Truth.

Didn't Net Neutrality die a quick and painful death a few months back?

I thought it had as well... hoped that it had, anyway.

That said, I was just pleased to hear the original GTA soundtrack. Makes me feel like digging it out again.

Yeah, but they can afford it because they don't need to maintain bloated government spending on all levels of the government. They're a pretty clear sign that low taxes, small government, and business-friendly free market policies work better than any of the crap we have now.

They also don't have the infrastructure and defense expenses the US does. I don't know what their social services program is like, but if you're saying we need less of that in this country than more, I'm going to have to take you to task.

Didn't Net Neutrality die a quick and painful death a few months back?
When you're talking about the telecoms, nothing is ever completely dead. Fuck, look at AT&T--I think they've become what was split up thirty years ago.

Include this image as a demonstration of what could happen.

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9580/internetfuturepq3.jpg

I don't think that's quite how it works...It could, happen, yes, eventually, but not directly...

They also don't have the infrastructure and defense expenses the US does. I don't know what their social services program is like, but if you're saying we need less of that in this country than more, I'm going to have to take you to task.

A lot of our money is wasted on stuff we don't need; social services aside, we blow tons of money on defense spending and discretionary stuff like corporate welfare and farm subsidies. If we cut back on spending, we could afford to reform the tax code, generate enough money to fund Social Security and Medicare, and still have enough left over to pay down a portion of our debt.

We need to stop spending more than the rest of the world combined on defense. It's not our job to be the world policeman; cut back spending, pull the troops out of the rest of the world, train some troops to do peacekeeping work and let people sort out their own problems. If we need to get involved overseas, we do it through the UN unless absolutely necessary for our national security.

When you're talking about the telecoms, nothing is ever completely dead. Fuck, look at AT&T--I think they've become what was split up thirty years ago.
Yes, they did, They bought Bellsouth around a month ago.

(Now I'm stuck using their laggy ass DSL, Yes even their DSL lags, plus for 30 hours this week their service was down!)

And for an unrelated note, Anyone who makes their money by simply being shareholders are nothing more than parasites on Humanity.

50 years ago, no-one could have forseen the creation and rapid development of the Internet. Maybe in 50 years time, they'll talk about how no-one forsaw the time when the Internet became so sucky that people stopped using it. Of course, this is currently just an American thing, so maybe not.

There was something else that made me think of this though. Just can't remember what. Damn.

50 years ago, no-one could have forseen the creation and rapid development of the Internet. Maybe in 50 years time, they'll talk about how no-one forsaw the time when the Internet became so sucky that people stopped using it. Of course, this is currently just an American thing, so maybe not.

There was something else that made me think of this though. Just can't remember what. Damn.

But we are forseeing it.

But we are forseeing it.

Yes, but NationStates will no longer exist, so our forsight will not be recorded in history.

Yes, but NationStates will no longer exist, so our forsight will not be recorded in history.

Jolt will live on forever......in our hearts.

Jolt will live on forever......in our hearts.

What if our hearts no longer exist? :eek:

What if our hearts no longer exist? :eek:

Than we're boned what more do you want from this hell we call Jolt?

Jolt will live on forever......in our hearts.

Hell, in a few years are hearts will be acting as servers too.

But unless there's some other benefit to using an LLC,

You mean like how conventional corporations get double taxation and LLC's don't?

why would anyone ever take that option when they can get rid of their liability completely by foisting it off onto this imaginary person?

That's not how it works, contrary to how the anti-capitalists in this thread are wanking each other about.

That's not how it works, contrary to how the anti-capitalists in this thread are wanking each other about.

De jure versus de facto, my friend.

(I think that's what it comes down to, but if I err, please forgive.)

De jure versus de facto, my friend.

(I think that's what it comes down to, but if I err, please forgive.)

Jeffrey Skilling is in prison.