NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/internet/05/17/estonia.cyber.attacks.ap/index.html

Thoughts? Comments?

NATO is even worried.

If it is true, and Russia is doing it, then it shows how they're going back to their old ways. :(

If it is that well organized, it does seem like some government is involved.

Thoughts? Comments?

Oh, can those wretched Estonians get more paranoid? They need to come off it, already.

Who's up for some good old fashion Cold War tension?...smells like bacon fat

Someone call Tom Clancy

yeah you can trust IP addresses

they're going back to their old ways. :(

going back :confused:

Oh, can those wretched Estonians get more paranoid? They need to come off it, already.

yep when all their banks, government and many other services are under attack. 93 % of Estonian banking is via the web. We should look and learn this sort of attack could occur to other countries.

Yes there are regular atttacks but the scale and systematic nature of this is alarming.

Oh, can those wretched Estonians get more paranoid? They need to come off it, already.
It's true though.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9163598
The alarm is sounding well beyond Estonia. NATO has been paying special attention. “If a member state's communications centre is attacked with a missile, you call it an act of war. So what do you call it if the same installation is disabled with a cyber-attack?” asks a senior official in Brussels.

It looks like this might trigger NATO to start getting involved in server protection and the like as well.

Who's up for some good old fashion Cold War tension?...smells like bacon fat

Someone call Tom Clancy

Yeah, I'm sure he is tired of pretending he can find ghost writers who know anything about China.

yep when all their banks, government and many other services are under attack. 93 % of Estonian banking is via the web. We should look and learn this sort of attack could occur to other countries.

Yes there are regular atttacks but the scale and systematic nature of this is alarming.

Many, many Russians were offended by Estonia's actions (which were completely superfluous and seemed as though designed to rub things into the noses of their already disenfranchised Russian minority). Russia has many, many gifted hackers and crackers. They can feasibly do things systematically and at this scale without government assistance and for the Estonians to claim Russian government involvement when they've absolutely no proof of it has up until now been the provocative thing, and it's right up the Estonian government's alley. They taunt the bull and then bitch whether it gores them or they get hoisted by their own petard.

Many, many Russians were offended by Estonia's actions

Not for the reasons you believe, however. For Estonians the "Victory Day" was the date their country was occupied by an enemy army that took their freedom from them (gee, I wonder if some Iraqis feel like this right now). The Russians only see it as the day to celebrate Russia/Soviet Union saving Europe from facism. They really do. The countries taken over in the war understandably don't, hence the schism in point of views.

for the Estonians to claim Russian government involvement when they've absolutely no proof of it has up until now been the provocative thing, and it's right up the Estonian government's alley.

Knowing Russian/Soviet Union methods of pressuring people into agreeing with their ways, and knowing how much they don't want to believe Estonia being an independent country (have they STILL acknowledged the border between Russia and Estonia?), I'd have less trouble believing the Russian government involvement than President Bush jr. admitting he doesn't have the first clue about what evolution really means.

Russia has internet? :p

Russia has internet? :p

In Soviet Rus...

No, no, it's too easy, I'm not doing it...

Knowing Russian/Soviet Union methods of pressuring people into agreeing with their ways, and knowing how much they don't want to believe Estonia being an independent country (have they STILL acknowledged the border between Russia and Estonia?), I'd have less trouble believing the Russian government involvement than President Bush jr. admitting he doesn't have the first clue about what evolution really means.

Your suspicions don't mean anything. It's not exactly wise for a government to openly say such things without proof.

In Soviet Rus...

No, no, it's too easy, I'm not doing it...

It is WAY to easy...so I'm gonna do it

In Soviet Russia the Internet has you!

Estonia has internet? :D

Your suspicions don't mean anything. It's not exactly wise for a government to openly say such things without proof.

USA is saying such things about terrorist attacks all the time. Sure, they're also a bigger country with bigger weapons, but the same reasoning should apply, yes?

USA is saying such things about terrorist attacks all the time.

The USA government should not be emulated as it is clearly bonkers. Estonia is treading in very stupid tracks.

I... can... not... resist...

In Soviet Russia, outdated Cold War tactics enflare diplomatic incidents ON YOU!!

Please forgive me...

I... can... not... resist...

In Soviet Russia, outdated Cold War tactics enflare diplomatic incidents ON YOU!!

Please forgive me...

Your going to burn in hell now. :p

Your going to die in the gulags now. :p

Corrected. :p

i haven't been liking where Russia has been going lately...

Corrected. :p

lol thanks. :D

i haven't been liking where Russia has been going lately...

Russia dosen't like where you've been going latley :p

The USA government should not be emulated as it is clearly bonkers. Estonia is treading in very stupid tracks.
The first attacks were traced back to Russian government computers. Now it seems to be Russian nationalists on various forums and the like. Apparently there've been posts on how to attack Estonian government websites.

Plus, the Russians have a bit of a bad recent history when it comes to getting involved in ex-satellites, leading me to not trust them as far as I can throw them. Putin is quickly making my list of "most hated leaders 2007", and something tells me his successor isn't going to change course (especially given that Putin will de facto still be in government as head of Gazprom).

Estonia has internet? :D
Not only does it have it, it's a constitutional right that people can access the internet if they want, and that's the actual truth.

Anyway, I don't see why NATO needs to get involved in this shit. Invading Russia would be an idea poorer than Mozambique. Do generals just not study history to do with Russian military history?

"Oh yeah, we can win this one for sure, no worries"
"Err how, Major Bloggs?"
"We make them... divide by zero"
"Hurrah for NATO!"

Anyway, I don't see why NATO needs to get involved in this shit.
Nevermind what the Estonians are saying right now, it does make sense that if internet websites and servers are vital to national security, that an alliance like NATO get involved on some level in their protection.

That doesn't so much mean bombs as it means the development of common security measures, back-up servers and so on.

The first attacks were traced back to Russian government computers. Now it seems to be Russian nationalists on various forums and the like. Apparently there've been posts on how to attack Estonian government websites.

Plus, the Russians have a bit of a bad recent history when it comes to getting involved in ex-satellites, leading me to not trust them as far as I can throw them. Putin is quickly making my list of "most hated leaders 2007", and something tells me his successor isn't going to change course (especially given that Putin will de facto still be in government as head of Gazprom).

You may feel like throwing out accusations without proof ("Russian government computers", that could be a library in Krasnoyarsk/Красноярск for all you know), but a government should strive to be smarter than that.

You may feel like throwing out accusations without proof ("Russian government computers", that could be a library in Krasnoyarsk/Красноярск for all you know), but a government should strive to be smarter than that.
Even if it was a government computer, it doesn't immediately indicate the Russian government is involved. It could be a computer technician in a government office building pissed off with Estonia and too much time on his/her hands.

I'd also like to put this quote from the OP:

The evidence is not enough to prove Russia played a role, "but it indicates a possibility," Defense Minister Jaak Aaviksoo told The Associated Press by telephone.

You may feel like throwing out accusations without proof ("Russian government computers", that could be a library in Krasnoyarsk/Красноярск for all you know), but a government should strive to be smarter than that.

The russian spokesman is saying the ip addresses from early attacks were faked to show they originated from the kremlin itself.

Take that for what it's worth. The fact cuts both ways...

Not only does it have it, it's a constitutional right that people can access the internet if they want, and that's the actual truth.

Anyway, I don't see why NATO needs to get involved in this shit. Invading Russia would be an idea poorer than Mozambique. Do generals just not study history to do with Russian military history?

"Oh yeah, we can win this one for sure, no worries"
"Err how, Major Bloggs?"
"We make them... divide by zero"
"Hurrah for NATO!"

Specially considering Russia has better nukes than the rest of the world, and has declared their intent to use them in any major war.

I'd also like to put this quote from the OP:

Yeah, "indicates a possibility". Some people look at a rock and think it "indicates a possibility" that a magical being in the sky requiring their worship put it there... so, so much for these "indications" of "possibilities". There could be an "indication" of a "possibility" that Estonia's government is doing it themselves to perpetuate their victim complex.... what? It's certainly a "possibility". :rolleyes:

There could be an "indication" of a "possibility" that Estonia's government is doing it themselves to perpetuate their victim complex...I agree completely. After half a century of occupation, the nation's entire elite ending in Siberia, and quietly organised mass-migration of Russians to get the natives under control, with Moscow quietly nudging the remaining Russian minority towards ever higher levels of radicalisation, with the Russian media using Estonia as its constant scapegoat with not particularly rare calls for 'Protecting' aforementioned minority by unnamed means (Well, 'Unnamed'. Chechnya's a paradise, isn't it?), Estonia has absolutely no reason to be worried about the giant it's neighboring, and should just shrug everything off once it gets rid of its last remnants of self-confidence.

Maybe it should rejoin the Russian Federation, too, and finally give up its nationhood - such things are overrated, anyway, and Russia's track record when it comes to national minorities is unmatched in its fairness and respect for the same, isn't it?

Indeed. The Estonian victim complex is not only an obvious fact, but despicable, unacceptable, and should be stamped out. Preferably with T-90s patrolling the streets to teach the arrogant bastards a lesson. And we should not hesitate to call for Estonia to finally get over it, bending over backwards to satisfy the whims of Saint Putin and his apostles, who would never, ever even think of re-acquiring once-lost territories, and have always respected not only the rights of the many nations united under mother Russia's protective umbrella, but have a proven track record of being the world's most honest and trustworthy nation.

Really. Those damn, terrorist Estonians fucking around with Russia should be punished for their disrespect, and never, ever should we bother to listen to the concerns of a people who've only experienced Russia first-hand for nigh-endless decades.

Fuck Estonia. All hail Russia, the saint who'll free the world from the evil oppression perpetrated by the west, and lead us to an enlightened age of liberty!

Yeah, "indicates a possibility". Some people look at a rock and think it "indicates a possibility" that a magical being in the sky requiring their worship put it there... so, so much for these "indications" of "possibilities". There could be an "indication" of a "possibility" that Estonia's government is doing it themselves to perpetuate their victim complex.... what? It's certainly a "possibility". :rolleyes:

In Soviet Russia "possibilities" "indicate" you! :D

Sorry this thread just makes it to easy.

Fuck Estonia.

The only salient thing in that post, except of course the divulgence of the very "bogeyman out to constantly get us" paranoia that Estonia loves to peddle so that we'll overlook how shitty they are treating the Russian minority. Hey, it got them into the EU despite the glaring government-perpetualised social inequalities, so obviously they've found a shtick that works for them.

In Soviet Russia "possibilities" "indicate" you! :D

Sorry this thread just makes it to easy.

Too bad it doesn't make it funny. Ever.

I agree completely. After half a century of occupation, the nation's entire elite ending in Siberia, and quietly organised mass-migration of Russians to get the natives under control, with Moscow quietly nudging the remaining Russian minority towards ever higher levels of radicalisation, with the Russian media using Estonia as its constant scapegoat with not particularly rare calls for 'Protecting' aforementioned minority by unnamed means (Well, 'Unnamed'. Chechnya's a paradise, isn't it?), Estonia has absolutely no reason to be worried about the giant it's neighboring, and should just shrug everything off once it gets rid of its last remnants of self-confidence.

Maybe it should rejoin the Russian Federation, too, and finally give up its nationhood - such things are overrated, anyway, and Russia's track record when it comes to national minorities is unmatched in its fairness and respect for the same, isn't it?

Indeed. The Estonian victim complex is not only an obvious fact, but despicable, unacceptable, and should be stamped out. Preferably with T-90s patrolling the streets to teach the arrogant bastards a lesson. And we should not hesitate to call for Estonia to finally get over it, bending over backwards to satisfy the whims of Saint Putin and his apostles, who would never, ever even think of re-acquiring once-lost territories, and have always respected not only the rights of the many nations united under mother Russia's protective umbrella, but have a proven track record of being the world's most honest and trustworthy nation.

Really. Those damn, terrorist Estonians fucking around with Russia should be punished for their disrespect, and never, ever should we bother to listen to the concerns of a people who've only experienced Russia first-hand for nigh-endless decades.

Fuck Estonia. All hail Russia, the saint who'll free the world from the evil oppression perpetrated by the west, and lead us to an enlightened age of liberty!
I award this post a :rolleyes:

Fuck Estonia.

In Soviet Rus...

Sorry sorry I'll stop now. :D

In Soviet Rus...

Sorry sorry I'll stop now. :D

In Soviet Russia, I'll stop YOU!!

In Soviet Russia, I'll stop YOU!!

:D

First those oh so oppressed Russian minority show off their real self by rioting violently for weeks, then this.

The Baltic states were unrightfully occupied for decades by one of the worst regimes the world has ever known. And still post-Soviet Russia neglects the fact that they were co-responsible for oppression in most of Eastern Europe.

The people of the Baltic states were in the middle of a fight between two terrible regimes they both didn't want (Nazism - Communism). Hell, the USA even made an exception for Baltic SS members so they werent (and indeed they werent) enemies of the USA, but enemies of the Communists invading their homeland.

And Estonia is still the homeland of Estonians, it is about time Russia respects this.

I agree completely. After half a century of occupation, the nation's entire elite ending in Siberia, and quietly organised mass-migration of Russians to get the natives under control, with Moscow quietly nudging the remaining Russian minority towards ever higher levels of radicalisation, with the Russian media using Estonia as its constant scapegoat with not particularly rare calls for 'Protecting' aforementioned minority by unnamed means (Well, 'Unnamed'. Chechnya's a paradise, isn't it?), Estonia has absolutely no reason to be worried about the giant it's neighboring, and should just shrug everything off once it gets rid of its last remnants of self-confidence.

Maybe it should rejoin the Russian Federation, too, and finally give up its nationhood - such things are overrated, anyway, and Russia's track record when it comes to national minorities is unmatched in its fairness and respect for the same, isn't it?

Indeed. The Estonian victim complex is not only an obvious fact, but despicable, unacceptable, and should be stamped out. Preferably with T-90s patrolling the streets to teach the arrogant bastards a lesson. And we should not hesitate to call for Estonia to finally get over it, bending over backwards to satisfy the whims of Saint Putin and his apostles, who would never, ever even think of re-acquiring once-lost territories, and have always respected not only the rights of the many nations united under mother Russia's protective umbrella, but have a proven track record of being the world's most honest and trustworthy nation.

Really. Those damn, terrorist Estonians fucking around with Russia should be punished for their disrespect, and never, ever should we bother to listen to the concerns of a people who've only experienced Russia first-hand for nigh-endless decades.

Fuck Estonia. All hail Russia, the saint who'll free the world from the evil oppression perpetrated by the west, and lead us to an enlightened age of liberty!

Is it just me, or do I sense sarcasm?

The only salient thing in that post, except of course the divulgence of the very "bogeyman out to constantly get us" paranoia that Estonia loves to peddle so that we'll overlook how shitty they are treating the Russian minority. Hey, it got them into the EU despite the glaring government-perpetualised social inequalities, so obviously they've found a shtick that works for them.
Is this about them having lower taxes than you?

Because there sure as hell is nothing else wrong with the Estonian government. Stalin sent tens of thousands of Russians into Estonia to make the place Russian, and in response the Estonians saw it fit to introduce language tests to gain citizenship after independence. Those were seen as too hard to start with, so they made them easier. Today the claims by Russians are all about language requirements...don't the silly Estonians know that Russian should be good enough?

This is the same as in every other country. For all the multiculturalism in the world, everyone in the economy will have to be able to communicate and the language spoken in a country is determined by historical circumstance. Unfortunately there is no way around some people having to learn a new language, and it makes little sense for the native population to have to learn it rather than the newcomers.

As you pointed out the EU didn't see anything wrong either; specifically the OSCE didn't find any evidence of wide-spread human rights abuses (of which ethnic discrimination would be one).

Ultimately we have a small, unoffensive, free, democratic member of the EU on one side, and an authoritarian, centralised, intervention-happy former superpower ruled by a bunch of decidedly undemocratic ex-KGB buddies. My sympathies happen to lie with the former, and I admit as much.

Corbournne;12668073']Is it just me, or do I sense sarcasm?

Not just you, I hope.

Well said Neu Leonstein.

The only salient thing in that post, except of course the divulgence of the very "bogeyman out to constantly get us" paranoia that Estonia loves to peddle so that we'll overlook how shitty they are treating the Russian minority. Hey, it got them into the EU despite the glaring government-perpetualised social inequalities, so obviously they've found a shtick that works for them.

The not nice thing about that post is: "how shitty they are treating russian minority". Well Fass, I would welcome you to come and to live in one of Baltic states for some longer time. This is not some very small minority that has arrived in your country to stay and that you can easily integrate. These are 30% of population, migrants of "russification movement" from Soviet times that does not want to stay, but they want that your country returns to embraces of Russia. Many of them are completely disloyal to the country they live in (they are raised that way). In Baltic states "shitty treatment of Russian minority" means that government dare to suggest that 50% of subjects in public schools should be taught in official language.

There could be an "indication" of a "possibility" that Estonia's government is doing it themselves to perpetuate their victim complex.... what? It's certainly a "possibility". :rolleyes:
Do you have to practice being stupid or does it come naturally? Victim complex? ...Do you even know history.

Let's see.
Estonia, a small economically growing democratic nation, who's advancing so much that they became the first nation in the world to use internet voting, get branded as having a victim complex and being mean to their Russian minority by trying to show Russia and the world that Estonia is a soverign state, and that Russian occupation of Estonia is NOT something to be celebrated in Estonia. Also, the EU found no problems with Estonia's civil treatment of its citizens, I CANNOT say the same for the shithole of a nation Russia, that you'd stupidly supporting.

Perhaps you should just leave Scandi-land and take a visit to the Baltic states, visit Estonia and then visit Russia (which I personally have done)...then see why you'd have to be mad to support Russia over Estonia.

And if you have done this already, then there is no helping you.

Estonia has internet? :D

Lies (http://newsbiscuit.com/article/russia-and-estonia-pretending-to-have-computers-099)

Lies (http://newsbiscuit.com/article/russia-and-estonia-pretending-to-have-computers-099)
lol.....What makes it even more funny is Estonia is shockinly advanced.

Estonia is part of Russia. There I said it.

Estonia is part of Russia. There I said it.

I strongly suggest you not say that where any Estonians can hear you. They won't find it very funny at all.

I strongly suggest you not say that where any Estonians can hear you. They won't find it very funny at all.

I imagine they wouldn't given their history. However, as there are no Estonians here(that I know of) the rest of us can find some humour in it.:)

Estonia is part of Russia. There I said it.
....Er?

Estonia is NOTHING like Russia...The people are a TOTALLY different people, not even of the slavic race (or sub-race..or whatever one would like to call it)...their language, their culture, are not Russian at all.

Have you even been there?:rolleyes:

Estonia is like part of the internet, so what's the big deal...