NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/05/17/mexico.gunbattle.reut/index.html

Now most of us know that all types of guns are illegal in mexico. So.......................Tell me how gun laws "prevented" this?:eek:

Tell me how gun laws "prevented" this?:eek:

There are plenty of countries where guns are illegal and they don't have this problem.

The truth of the matter is that the Mexican government totally sucks on many levels.

There are plenty of countries where guns are illegal and they don't have this problem.

The truth of the matter is that the Mexican government totally sucks on many levels.

Well therortically it should be work no matter how much the goverment sucks. The point of thier laws are specifically is to take away all guns right? So if the gun is the cause of the problem then banning them should stop all gun crime, because if its illegal they wont do it.

Well therortically it should be work no matter how much the goverment sucks. The point of thier laws are specifically is to take away all guns right? So if the gun is the cause of the problem then banning them should stop all gun crime, because if its illegal they wont do it.

Of course it matters how much the government sucks.

You can have all the laws in the world banning guns, but if the government is incapable of adequately enforcing the law, then it simply won't work.

Since gun control works (or so I'm told), and the killing were allegedly committed with banned weapons, the only conclusion I can come to is that the journalist simply got it wrong. This never happened. The report is false.

There are plenty of countries where guns are illegal and they don't have this problem.

Err no, most countries have some sort of gang problem, and these gangs tend, on the whole, to be armed.

Err no, most countries have some sort of gang problem, and these gangs tend, on the whole, to be armed.

Of course. How else are they meant to deal drugs? Some special attachment for their shoulder stumps?

Of course. How else are they meant to deal drugs? Some special attachment for their shoulder stumps?

Like zis? (http://www.touchbionics.com/video.php?vid=shotgun&format=win)

Of course it matters how much the government sucks.

You can have all the laws in the world banning guns, but if the government is incapable of adequately enforcing the law, then it simply won't work.

And how would you propose going about that? I know someone who has a fully automatic ak-47 at his house. They are illegal here in CA. So tell me how they are going to catch him.

I know how to get rid of that problem. make guns illegal and everything else legal. Ought to solve the crime problem too.

And how would you propose going about that? I know someone who has a fully automatic ak-47 at his house. They are illegal here in CA. So tell me how they are going to catch him.

With these (http://www.touchbionics.com/video.php?vid=shotgun&format=win), apparently.

Anyway, I know how to get guns off people. Bribe them with seats in your legislature. It seems to have worked here.

I know how to get rid of that problem. make guns illegal and everything else legal. Ought to solve the crime problem too.

Kinda; the most efficient way of eradicating gun crime is to repeal all laws which establish crimes that have anything to do with guns.

Tada! No more gun crime!

Kinda; the most efficient way of eradicating gun crime is to repeal all laws which establish crimes that have anything to do with guns.

Tada! No more gun crime!

They only problem with that is it would work. I don't know about where you are from but here that automatically trashes a proposal.

With these (http://www.touchbionics.com/video.php?vid=shotgun&format=win), apparently.

Anyway, I know how to get guns off people. Bribe them with seats in your legislature. It seems to have worked here.

Free the "on the runs!!!" o ...wait.....

They only problem with that is it would work. I don't know about where you are from but here that automatically trashes a proposal.

Well, where I am (conveniently indicated to the left), the people running the country have spent the last 40 years playing with guns and trying to kill each other, so it may be easier than you think.

I also, um, wasn't being serious...

As mexican citizen I can tell you just how much the mexican goverment sucks. TOO MUCH. :mad:

Any way I really really really DOUBT legalizing guns in Mexico would make things better. Actually Im pretty sure it would be a LOT worse than it already is.

One big problem is that for Mexican drug dealers is pretty easy to cross the border (wall or no wall) and buy guns in the US. Is quite common that the mexican mafias exchange drugs for guns with US based mafias. :mp5: :sniper:


On the matter of nations where the goverments doesnt sucks so much and guns law work, take for example Japan.

Free the "on the runs!!!" o ...wait.....

I liked that idea.

But with one small modification; exactly 24 hours after releasing them, the government goes after them, in a no-holds-barred kinda way. We could have TV crews following them, and vote off convicts.

The winner gets a no expenses paid lifetime trip to Brazil, Ronnie Biggs style, except without the whole coming home for some reason. The loser gets shot in Gibraltar, at a time of the SAS's choosing.

Everybody else gets put back in the Maze. At the new stadium, though. And only because nobody else is going to want to go to Lisburn, national stadium or not.

I liked that idea.

But with one small modification; exactly 24 hours after releasing them, the government goes after them, in a no-holds-barred kinda way. We could have TV crews following them, and vote off convicts.

The winner gets an all expenses paid lifetime trip to Brazil. The loser gets shot in Gibraltar.

In a way, we sort of had that for the last 30 years, but it was usually Cuba, Nicaragua and the like that was the destination.

(The guy in the video actually has no natural upper arm either btw, but I couldnt find a decent still)

Well, they certainly enforeced the laws with "Dog" the Bounty-Hunter. But, yet this is another example of....
http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/other/bandit.gif

In a way, we sort of had that for the last 30 years, but it was usually Cuba, Nicaragua and the like that was the destination.

Yeah, but we didn't have phone votes. Phone votes make all the difference. And I improved my original idea.

I wonder if I could sell it to UTV.

(The guy in the video actually has no natural upper arm either btw, but I couldnt find a decent still)

Cool.

Hmmmm. Have to do mixed batches in each group though. I doubt chasing the UDA round Ibrox is the kind of "exotic location" the viewers might find appealling....

Hmmmm. Have to do mixed batches in each group though. I doubt chasing the UDA round Ibrox is the kind of "exotic location" the viewers might find appealling....

How about a buddy system? Everybody has to pick someone from the other side and work together.

How about a buddy system? Everybody has to pick someone from the other side and work together.

O fuck yes. A tragi-comic farce filled with masses of Irony, violence, and arguing over 'symbols'.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/05/18/japan.shooting.reut/index.html

Bad week for gun control proponents.

This is Japan. Also a "gun free zone".

These two incidents clearly prove that all gun control laws of all kinds in every country are completely and utterly useless, and should be abolished immediately. Not only that, these incidents also prove that absolutely everyone should be given a nuclear weapon in order to protect themselves from all the other people with nuclear weapons.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/05/18/japan.shooting.reut/index.html

Bad week for gun control proponents.

This is Japan. Also a "gun free zone".

Yes, you're absolutely right. Three gun murders and one suicide on a little over a month is surely proof positive that gun control do not work. :rolleyes:

You ignored this part:
Gun-related crimes are rare in Japan and on the decline. The number of shootings fell to a record-low 53 last year, with most involving members of organized crime. Of those, 36 were thought to have involved gangsters. Only two resulted in deaths.

Interesting to see the difference though:
School shooting in the US, a country with weak gun control laws - calls for more liberal gun laws.
Mob shootout in Japan, a country with strict gun control laws - calls for stricter gun laws.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/05/17/mexico.gunbattle.reut/index.html

Now most of us know that all types of guns are illegal in mexico. So.......................Tell me how gun laws "prevented" this?:eek:
Now most of us know murder and shooting at police is illegal in Mexico.
So... tell me how laws against murder "prevented" this? :eek:

Now most of us know murder and shooting at police is illegal in Mexico.
So... tell me how laws against murder "prevented" this? :eek:

Or laws against kidnapping/hostage taking? :eek:
Or laws against drugs? :eek: Or the war on drugs itself? :eek:

Now most of us know murder and shooting at police is illegal in Mexico.
So... tell me how laws against murder "prevented" this? :eek:

They didn't. Lets get rid of them.

They didn't. Lets get rid of them.

Well, that's the only logical conlusion, isn't it.

"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"...
However:
"If you remove all laws, there will be no law-breaking."

:)

Took me long enough to piss someone off.

Is that why you posted? Cos you see trolling is bad.

Took me long enough to piss someone off.

Took me long enough to piss someone off.

A) Admitting to trolling isn't a smart move.
B) Don't see anybody pissed off, rather a lot of posts mocking you instead...

Well, that's the only logical conlusion, isn't it.

"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"...
However:
"If you remove all laws, there will be no law-breaking."

:)

Well we need to have at least one law so we can all be proud of how law abiding we are.

Trolling wasn't my origional intent, but when people get angry they are easier to read. Lacking the ability to see thier face emotion is the only way to judge someone. Also people tend to make more mistakes when angry.

Well we need to have at least one law so we can all be proud of how law abiding we are.

What about a law that says you must obey the law?

Well we need to have at least one law so we can all be proud of how law abiding we are.

Whaaaaaaa? Hell no! There'll always be some "cool kid" who will break the law and fuck up our statistics! So no laws!

I would say we should outlaw laws, but then only outlaws would make laws... And break them too! The clever bastards!

*Shakes fist at outlaws* http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/violent053.gif

What about a law that says you must obey the law?

Excellent. It'd be the greatest society of all time, with no crime at all. Evar.

Trolling wasn't my origional intent, but when people get angry they are easier to read. Lacking the ability to see thier face emotion is the only way to judge someone. Also people tend to make more mistakes when angry.
Kinda like the mistakes people make when trolling? :)
Excellent. It'd be the greatest society of all time, with no crime at all. Evar.
*Breaks law*

Bwahahahaha! Who wants to live in your society now, sahib? :D

snip
On the topic of guns I know people who have many illegal weapons but do not go shoot every other person they see.so?

What about a law that says you must obey the law?

This is the point I am trying to make. I break laws every day. Nothing major, but I do. The fact that they are laws, is not realy a big deterent.

On the topic of guns I know people who have many illegal weapons but do not go shoot every other person they see.

Kinda like the mistakes people make when trolling? :)



At least in trolling you have a degree of control over your mistakes. Have you ever played poker?

so?
You would imply they do. I mean since they have an illegal ak, they must be the ones do the next big shooting.

At least in trolling you have a degree of control over your mistakes. Have you ever played poker?

Hehe. How's the weather on Fantasy Island? I bet it's nice. Personally, I may wish for a penguin :)

You would imply they do. I mean since they have an illegal ak, they must be the ones do the next big shooting.

Why would I imply that?

Why would I imply that?

Psst! http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/signs043.gif

Why would I imply that?

Guns are the source of the crime remember? If someone pisses them off they would not be able to resist the temptation of shooting people.

Hehe. How's the weather on Fantasy Island? I bet it's nice. Personally, I may wish for a penguin :)

Acually its a bit too hot. But really if you show select cards or emotion (or 'mistakes') then it will get you far.

Guns are the source of the crime remember? If someone pisses them off they would not be able to resist the temptation of shooting people.

When did I say that?

Psst! http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/signs043.gif

pfft not feeding giving him rope and he is nicely hanging himself apparently

When did I say that?

You didn't. It is implied in your logic. You see you are attempting to outlaw the gun on the grounds that if it was not there, the crimes wouldn't be committed.

I argue simpily that gun laws don't work. If the US outlawed guns then I would have several illegal weapons and the gov would never get them.

pfft not feeding giving him rope and he is nicely hanging himself apparently

Allrighty, but don't come a-cryin' to me when you're sitting around in your underwear and he's eating your cheese.

Have fun you crazy kids :)

Have fun you crazy kids :)

will do kemo sabe.

You didn't. It is implied in your logic. You see you are attempting to outlaw the gun on the grounds that if it was not there, the crimes wouldn't be committed.

I argue simpily that gun laws don't work. If the US outlawed guns then I would have several illegal weapons and the gov would never get them.

What logic implied that?

Care to quote where I said anything of the sort?

.
I argue simpily that gun laws don't work. If the US outlawed guns then I would have several illegal weapons and the gov would never get them.

If they outlawed them it may make it harder for people to go and buy them to shoot up their school

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Second Free West
You didn't. It is implied in your logic. You see you are attempting to outlaw the gun on the grounds that if it was not there, the crimes wouldn't be committed.
I argue simpily that gun laws don't work. If the US outlawed guns then I would have several illegal weapons and the gov would never get them.


What logic implied that?

Care to quote where I said anything of the sort?

Again, if the guns are the couse of crime then anyone who has them is a potetiel killer. Anyone who doesn't is a happy school child free from committing criminal acts.

Again, if the guns are the couse of crime then anyone who has them is a potetiel killer. Anyone who doesn't is a happy school child free from committing criminal acts.

You did not quote me you quoted yourself ... in no way did even imply outlawing guns or its effect on on crime

Care to try again?

You didn't. It is implied in your logic. You see you are attempting to outlaw the gun on the grounds that if it was not there, the crimes wouldn't be committed.


Oh wow..you got all that just by him saying "so"?

Must be nice to be able to read people's minds through one lil word.

Oh wow..you got all that just by him saying "so"?

Must be nice to be able to read people's minds through one lil word.

No kidding, he even got that mind reading wrong ... though it is fun to see him try to justify projecting all sorts of intent on my statement.

Ok I am going to stop repeating myself and ask you: If other than to prevent the common man from becoming a murder by taking away his weapon, what is the purpose of gun control?

I assume to limit the number of guns in circulation and make it harder all over to obtain one.

Ok I am going to stop repeating myself and ask you: If other than to prevent the common man from becoming a murder by taking away his weapon, what is the purpose of gun control?

No kidding, he even got that mind reading wrong ... though it is fun to see him try to justify projecting all sorts of intent on my statement.

Damn its alot hader without the face.

Again, if the guns are the couse of crime then anyone who has them is a potetiel killer. Anyone who doesn't is a happy school child free from committing criminal acts.

Of course anyone who has a gun is a potential killer - so is anyone who owns a knife or a screwdriver or fists like Chuck Norris

My question would be why on earth does anyone feel the need to hoard loads of military grade firearms in their house - they can only shoot one at a time.
Do they rent the others out to deranged family members for when they get fired from their job or dumped by their girlfriend?

Damn its alot hader without the face.

Yes it is ... and to clarify what I meant originally is that using an individual person to prove a statistical average which is the normal claim is silly. No one I have ever heard claims that a gun turns someone into a lunitic just potentially on average it allows them to do more harm

Now I am going to clarify because you are so intent on projecting thoughts and feelings on me this is not MY argument my only point was that your "example" of a someone that owned a gun but did not kill anyone has no real point and does not "prove" a damn thing about if people who own guns are more or less likely to cause harm

My pourpose of hoarding military grade weapons: That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prehaps I should have said where this comes for. This is an exerpt from the US declaration of Independence.

BS assualt rifles are illegal here. I can get one from at least three diffrent dealers I know.

Is that a law or an enforcement problem?

If they outlawed them it may make it harder for people to go and buy them to shoot up their school

BS assualt rifles are illegal here. I can get one from at least three diffrent dealers I know.

Yes it is ... and to clarify what I meant originally is that using an individual person to prove a statistical average which is the normal claim is silly. No one I have ever heard claims that a gun turns someone into a lunitic just potentially on average it allows them to do more harm

Now I am going to clarify because you are so intent on projecting thoughts and feelings on me this is not MY argument my only point was that your "example" of a someone that owned a gun but did not kill anyone has no real point and does not "prove" a damn thing about if people who own guns are more or less likely to cause harm


My apologies.

My pourpose of hoarding military grade weapons: That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Ah...that explains it. Well it would with a bit better use of punctuation and grammar

Let me know if you are going to rise up and overthrow the government soon because I want to go to Florida this year and wouldn't like a coup to get in the way of my fun

Is that a law or an enforcement problem?

How would you enforce it?

As mexican citizen I can tell you just how much the mexican goverment sucks. TOO MUCH. :mad:

Any way I really really really DOUBT legalizing guns in Mexico would make things better. Actually Im pretty sure it would be a LOT worse than it already is.

One big problem is that for Mexican drug dealers is pretty easy to cross the border (wall or no wall) and buy guns in the US. Is quite common that the mexican mafias exchange drugs for guns with US based mafias. :mp5: :sniper:


On the matter of nations where the goverments doesnt sucks so much and guns law work, take for example Japan.
GUN SMILEYS! GUN SMILEYS! Someone Should have lost the plot by now!:D

My pourpose of hoarding military grade weapons: That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Er, you don't wear fatigues and live in a bunker in the Rockies with 13 tons of out of date "C"rations do you? Seriously, if the powers that be have seen this quote, you are now being watched! Hoarding guns in case you have to subvert the state!?! Your orange boiler suit is waiting for you in Cuba!:eek:

In fact, you are not interested in democracy and you are against the values for which the USA stands! You hoard milatary grade firearms in case you dont agree with the democratically elected government! Thats called TERRORISM!

Second free west? More like First grade fascist dictatorship!

George Washington would have you hung!

How would you enforce it?
Not my problem really nor the point of my question

The more pointed question would have been is enforcement more detrimental then non enforcement. Both in its effects and ability of enforcement.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

-US Declaration of Independence.
Grammar Isn't my fault blame Thomas Jefferson

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law

-Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Adopted and proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948


Guns in the hands of citizens are the only thing standing between Democracy and Dictadorship. For those of you who don't know Hitler didn't come to power through a coup he was ELECTED.

Guns in the hands of citizens are the only thing standing between demacray and Dictadorship. For those of you who don't know Hitler didn't come to power through a coup he was ELECTED.

Indeed. Though all that proves is that you don't need guns, you rather need an informed and aware electorate :)

Indeed. Though all that proves is that you don't need guns, you rather need an informed and aware electorate :)

They had to know about him. He tried a coup in Bavaria in 1923. He wrote mien kampf. How could you not know?

They had to know about him. He tried a coup in Bavaria in 1923. He wrote mien kampf. How could you not know?

The lack of mass media like the one we live with today. And the speeches he gave eclipsed his past.

The lack of mass media like the one we live with today. And the speeches he gave eclipsed his past.

During Hitler's trial, sympathetic magistrates allowed Hitler to turn his coup debacle into a propaganda triumph. He was given almost unlimited time to speak, and his popularity soared as he voiced nationalistic sentiments. A Munich personality became a nationally known figure. On April 1, 1924 Hitler was sentenced to five years' imprisonment at Landsberg Prison. Hitler received favoured treatment from the guards and had much fan mail from admirers.

While at Landsberg he dictated Mein Kampf (My Struggle, originally intended "Four Years of Struggle against Lies, Stupidity, and Cowardice" by Hitler) to his deputy Rudolf Hess.[18] The book, dedicated to Thule Society member Dietrich Eckart, was a selective and sometimes misleading autobiography and an exposition of his ideology. It was published in two volumes in 1925 and 1926, selling about 240,000 copies between 1925 and 1934 alone. By the end of the war, about 10 million copies had been sold or distributed (every newly-wed couple, as well as front soldiers, received free copies).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#The_Beer_Hall_Putsch

I will concede you his speeches, but my point is they knew what he was about and still elected him.

During Hitler's trial, sympathetic magistrates allowed Hitler to turn his coup debacle into a propaganda triumph. He was given almost unlimited time to speak, and his popularity soared as he voiced nationalistic sentiments. A Munich personality became a nationally known figure. On April 1, 1924 Hitler was sentenced to five years' imprisonment at Landsberg Prison. Hitler received favoured treatment from the guards and had much fan mail from admirers.

While at Landsberg he dictated Mein Kampf (My Struggle, originally intended "Four Years of Struggle against Lies, Stupidity, and Cowardice" by Hitler) to his deputy Rudolf Hess.[18] The book, dedicated to Thule Society member Dietrich Eckart, was a selective and sometimes misleading autobiography and an exposition of his ideology. It was published in two volumes in 1925 and 1926, selling about 240,000 copies between 1925 and 1934 alone. By the end of the war, about 10 million copies had been sold or distributed (every newly-wed couple, as well as front soldiers, received free copies).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#The_Beer_Hall_Putsch

I will concede you his speeches, but my point is they knew what he was about and still elected him.
So how would guns have solved this situation?

So how would guns have solved this situation?

Does popularity of a leader indicate whether said leader is evil or not? In a earlier statement someone acussed me of being a terrorist for possibly opposing a democratically elected goverment that I did not agree with. My point is that sometimes it becomes nessicary. Guns are to prevent this from occurring.

Does popularity of a leader indicate whether said leader is evil or not?

Nope it does not ... but it does have an effect on the amount of people willing to violently stand against them...

Seems to be a rather long serious of suppositions from your original argument that guns could have helped in some way

Does popularity of a leader indicate whether said leader is evil or not? In a earlier statement someone acussed me of being a terrorist for possibly opposing a democratically elected goverment that I did not agree with. My point is that sometimes it becomes nessicary. Guns are to prevent this from occurring.

How would an armed German populace have prevented Hitler gaining power?

Especially since, as you pointed out, he was elected with the support of a significant portion of the population?

How would an armed German populace have prevented Hitler gaining power?

Especially since, as you pointed out, he was elected with the support of a significant portion of the population?

Exactly I am having problems making all these logical leaps

Nope it does not ... but it does have an effect on the amount of people willing to violently stand against them...

Seems to be a rather long serious of suppositions from your original argument that guns could have helped in some way

An armed population may not have prevented him from gaining power, but it would have hurt his designs.

Hitler himself said "One with a gun can control 100 without"
Though some people did oppose him most spent their time in concentration camps. Also guns aided the resistance in occuppied nations.(and late in the war there were several partisan uprisings-Josef Tito or Warsaw anyone?) And very late in the war guns in the hands of the jewish risistance helped prevent the liquidation of several extermination camp populations. -(even in the camps they managed to hide guns and ammo)

An armed population may not have prevented him from gaining power, but it would have hurt his designs.

Hitler himself said "One with a gun can control 100 without"
Though some people did oppose him most spent their time in concentration camps. Also guns aided the resistance in occuppied nations.(and late in the war there were several partisan uprisings-Josef Tito or Warsaw anyone?) And very late in the war guns in the hands of the jewish risistance helped prevent the liquidation of several extermination camp populations. -(even in the camps they managed to hide guns and ammo)

Interesting so you try to support the idea of an armed populace with an example of a situation where it in the long run probably would not have helped anyways...

I will concede you his speeches, but my point is they knew what he was about and still elected him.
...which is in line with my original point. Guns would not have defeated him - a more informed electorate (i.e. an electorate that would not have bought into his messages) would :)

...which is in line with my original point. Guns would not have defeated him - a more informed electorate (i.e. an electorate that would not have bought into his messages) would :)

And if the SPD and KPD had decided in late 1932 that it was probably a good idea to work together and oppose him, he might not have been Chancellor at all...

And if the SPD and KPD had decided in late 1932 that it was probably a good idea to work together and oppose him, he might not have been Chancellor at all...

Indeed. That's democracy for you. It wouldn't have changed if the german people were armed to the teeth.

Now most of us know that all types of guns are illegal in mexico. So.......................Tell me how gun laws "prevented" this?:eek:

Laws themselves prevent nothing. Enforcing those laws, on the other hand...

Unfortunately that's where the Mexican government sucks.

Hitmen...were holding abducted police officers

Shouldn't it be the other way around?