NationStates Jolt Archive

I am the only one to be shocked ?

Our new right-wing president, who insulted defenders of Human Rights, send the police to arrest children and their parents at school's doors, repressed the massive revolt of the young against the "CPE" last year, wanted to detect "future criminals" and create files on them at the age of 3, always opposed and partly destroyed the french social model that was created by the National Council of Resistance in 1944, even went as far as using "le travail c'est la liberté" ("abreit macht frei...") and "travail, ordre, partie"while Vichy France motto was "travail, famille, patrie" as mottos, dare to use the name of Guy Môquet !

Guy Môquet was a very active member of the Youth Communists, the youth branch of the Parti Communiste Français. He was arrested at the age of 16 and executed at the age of 17 by Vichy France and the Nazi invaders, for the crime of being communist and diffusing communist propaganda against the Vichy regime.

Guy Môquet's last letter is a very heart-breaking letter, in which he claims to not regret his actions, and in which is only wish is to not have die in vain. He ends his letter with "Vous qui restez, soyez digne de nous, les 27 qui allons mourrir" ("You who will remain, be worthy of us, the 27 who will die.")

How dare this Sarkozy, who is the exact opposite of what Guy Môquet gave his life for, use his name ? Sarkozy is the most reckless defender of individualism here, how dare he use the name of this teenager who sacrified everything by altruism ?

I am the only one shocked and revolted by the shameless use of the memory of this hero by his political enemy ?

(For those who can read french, I wrote an "open letter" to Nicolas Sarkozy on my blog http://blog.kilobug.org/blog/index.php/2007/05/17/26-ne-touchez-pas-a-guy-moquet )

I am the only one to be shocked ?

Our new right-wing president, who insulted defenders of Human Rights, send the police to arrest children and their parents at school's doors, repressed the massive revolt of the young against the "CPE" last year, wanted to detect "future criminals" and create files on them at the age of 3, always opposed and partly destroyed the french social model that was created by the National Council of Resistance in 1944, even went as far as using "le travail c'est la liberté" ("abreit macht frei...") and "travail, ordre, partie"while Vichy France motto was "travail, famille, patrie" as mottos
I very sheepishly have to admit that I didn't even know half of that. :/

And I also have to ask: what DID he do to the name of Guy Môquet? Unless I really, really, really missed it I don't think your post actually tells us what he did/said? :confused:

what ??

Wait, he actually said "le travail c'est la liberté" and "travail, ordre, partie"?

That's crazy shit, right there. No wonder Blair likes him.




For those who don't know any French..."le travail c'est la liberté" means "work is freedom". I think "travail, ordre, patrie" means "work, order, and country".

Wait, he actually said "le travail c'est la liberté" and "travail, ordre, partie"?

That slogan sounds slightly Stalinist.

That slogan sounds slightly Stalinist.

Stalinist?

"le travail c'est la liberté" is the French, essentially, for "Arbeit macht frei", which the Nazis used as a slogan in the concentration camps.

Stalinist?

"le travail c'est la liberté" is the French, essentially, for "Arbeit macht frei", which the Nazis used as a slogan in the concentration camps.

I meant totalitarian.

I meant totalitarian.

Ah, OK.

Yes, yes it is.

Stalinist?

"le travail c'est la liberté" is the French, essentially, for "Arbeit macht frei", which the Nazis used as a slogan in the concentration camps.

Actually, the French counterpart of "Arbeit macht frei" is "Le travail rend libre", not "le travail c'est la liberté".

Not that Sarkozy isn't a douche. Oh, he very much is.

Actually, the French counterpart of "Arbeit macht frei" is "Le travail rend libre", not "le travail c'est la liberté".

Well, yeah, I did say essentially "Arbeit macht frei", because it's the same message, and the same meaning at the end of the day.

German to English, "Arbeit macht frei" is literally "works makes free", and "le travail c'est la liberté" is literally "the work it is the freedom". So it has the same meaning for me.

Not that Sarkozy isn't a douche. Oh, he very much is.

Yup.

Actually, the French counterpart of "Arbeit macht frei" is "Le travail rend libre", not "le travail c'est la liberté".

Not that Sarkozy isn't a douche. Oh, he very much is.

You always have to do that, don't you?

Next you'll be correcting Peep and Arya when they're speaking in Hindi or Punjabi :p

Well, yeah, I did say essentially "Arbeit macht frei", because it's the same message, and the same meaning at the end of the day.

Except, of course, that in French the two are not equivalent and while one may readily conjure up the allusions you make, the other may not or may do so only through labour (ironically).

You always have to do that, don't you?

No, I don't.

Except, of course, that in French the two are not equivalent and while one may readily conjure up the allusions you make, the other may not or may do so only through labour (ironically).

Tell me, Fass, what part of "essentially" don't you understand? I mean, it's not a difficult word. Are you just ignoring it?

Anyway, while the words may not have the exact same meaning, they give out the same message, which is the evocation of "arbeit macht frei". Of course, let's not forget that the person who originally linked "le travail c'est la liberté" and "arbeit macht frei" is a Frenchman, and I'll listen to their take long before I would listen to a pedantic, agitative, Swede.

Tell me, Fass, what part of "essentially" don't you understand? I mean, it's not a difficult word. Are you just ignoring it?

I'm ignoring it, since it makes no difference to the fact that the allusion is very stretched, almost onto Godwin, indeed.

Anyway, while the words may not have the exact same meaning, they give out the same message, which is the evocation of "arbeit macht frei". Of course, let's not forget that the person who originally linked "le travail c'est la liberté" and "arbeit macht frei" is a Frenchman, and I'll listen to their take long before I would listen to a pedantic, agitative, Swede.

His allusion is no less laboured than when you based yours off of it.

And I also have to ask: what DID he do to the name of Guy Môquet? Unless I really, really, really missed it I don't think your post actually tells us what he did/said? :confused:

He used the name of Guy Môquet in a several speeches, saying that his France is the one of Guy Môquet. He didn't *do* much in the name of Guy Môquet, but he is using Guy Môquet's name and sacrifice to take and keep power, and then do the opposite of what Guy Môquet gave his life for... that's disgusting, for me.

Wait, he actually said "le travail c'est la liberté" and "travail, ordre, partie"?

"Le travail c'est la liberté" was the motto of one of his official campaign ads.

For "travail, ordre, partie" he didn't say it directly like that, but the day he was elected, in his speech, after the usual "thanks" to those helped him, voted for him, ... he stated the values he'll promote, and that was, in this order, "travail, ordre, partie".

That's crazy shit, right there. No wonder Blair likes him.

Hehe... well, I guess Blair likes him mostly because Sarkozy is much, much closer to Bush and the USA than Chirac and De Villepin were.

Actually, the French counterpart of "Arbeit macht frei" is "Le travail rend libre", not "le travail c'est la liberté".

Yes, he doesn't use exactly the same words, that would be too much. But that's the same idea, and the same ideology.

its weird, leaders that everybody hates always get elected :confused:

I am the only one to be shocked ?

Our new right-wing president, who insulted defenders of Human Rights, send the police to arrest children and their parents at school's doors, repressed the massive revolt of the young against the "CPE" last year, wanted to detect "future criminals" and create files on them at the age of 3, always opposed and partly destroyed the french social model that was created by the National Council of Resistance in 1944, even went as far as using "le travail c'est la liberté" ("abreit macht frei...") and "travail, ordre, partie"while Vichy France motto was "travail, famille, patrie" as mottos, dare to use the name of Guy Môquet !

Guy Môquet was a very active member of the Youth Communists, the youth branch of the Parti Communiste Français. He was arrested at the age of 16 and executed at the age of 17 by Vichy France and the Nazi invaders, for the crime of being communist and diffusing communist propaganda against the Vichy regime.

Guy Môquet's last letter is a very heart-breaking letter, in which he claims to not regret his actions, and in which is only wish is to not have die in vain. He ends his letter with "Vous qui restez, soyez digne de nous, les 27 qui allons mourrir" ("You who will remain, be worthy of us, the 27 who will die.")

How dare this Sarkozy, who is the exact opposite of what Guy Môquet gave his life for, use his name ? Sarkozy is the most reckless defender of individualism here, how dare he use the name of this teenager who sacrified everything by altruism ?

I am the only one shocked and revolted by the shameless use of the memory of this hero by his political enemy ?

(For those who can read french, I wrote an "open letter" to Nicolas Sarkozy on my blog http://blog.kilobug.org/blog/index.php/2007/05/17/26-ne-touchez-pas-a-guy-moquet )

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/yawn.gif

Who cares? :)

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/yawn.gif

Who cares? :)

Well Kilobugya, obviously. Me, Call to Power, Fassigen, Nadkor...

I have to say I do find it rather disturbing.

Now, that Sarkozy should honour Moquet's memory, and encourage others to do so, would theoretically be a good thing. And a right-wing president praising a communist hero of the French Resistance is good too. I despise Sarkozy, but I wouldn't condemn everything he does just because it comes from him.

On the other hand... I'm finding it hard to trust his sincerity here. And, as Kilobugya rightly points out, it is shameful for an advocate of extreme individualism and selfishness, who manages to simultaneously be a champion of repression and of muzzling the media, to draw a comparison between himself and this hero.

its weird, leaders that everybody hates always get elected :confused:

Yeah :/ Controlling the media, playing on people's fear is a good way to be elected... even more so when his main opponent (Ségolène Royal) lacks any real program and accept his themes and even some of his ideas ...

I have to say I do find it rather disturbing.

Now, that Sarkozy should honour Moquet's memory, and encourage others to do so, would theoretically be a good thing. And a right-wing president praising a communist hero of the French Resistance is good too.

Well, yes, that's good to speak about him, and I even tend to think it'll backfire against Sarkozy... People will know more about the role of the communists during the Resistance, and that's good for us.

On the other hand... I'm finding it hard to trust his sincerity here. And, as Kilobugya rightly points out, it is shameful for an advocate of extreme individualism and selfishness, who manages to simultaneously be a champion of repression and of muzzling the media, to draw a comparison between himself and this hero.

Indeed, that's the problem. Not that he wants people to know about Guy Môquet, but that he tries to use Guy Môquet's name to improve his own image and to defend his own values, which are the opposites of the ones of Guy Môquet.

http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/yawn.gif

Who cares? :)

I care. And apparently so do a lot of other people. France is an important player in Europe and the world. What affects its government is important.

Yup. Sarkozy is an asshole. His election is going to affect me and all of my friends very deeply. I am a student, meaning that i'm going to be looking for a job in the next 3 or 4 years... and so will be all the people I know.

But then I won't be able to get a fucking job because this idiot thinks that the jobs that the older people already have are more important than those the younger ones are going to need... very soon. Unemployment was already rampant in educated 20 to 25 years old, now, thanks to him, its going to be even worse.

Not only that, but try living in the center of Paris and being "un jeune". The cop cars slow down every time they cross you. The cops hate you. The general public listens to sarkozy and refuses to respect you. Wear a hoody and get arrested.

Me and my friends smoke weed and graf... whats wrong about that ? We're all studying, getting ready to help out the french economy in our way, following the path that has been traced for us, but this prick comes along and fucks everything up with his "tolerance zero".

Fuck him.

I am the only one shocked and revolted by the shameless use of the memory of this hero by his political enemy ?


it's not really that shocking, stuff like that happen all the time. Not that i like Sarkozy, but i think you should focus on more important things, like his policy, instead of symbolism.

Yes, he doesn't use exactly the same words, that would be too much. But that's the same idea, and the same ideology.

Don't be ridiculous. Sarkozy is a douche, but he is not a Nazi. It is not, I repeat, not at all the "same idea" or "same ideology". One was used by the Nazis in fucking concentration camps where they worked and gassed people to death, and the other is used by a politician whose country faces severe unemployment issues and who has chosen that the correction of those be one of his primary goals; there is not one iota of reason to suspect that Sarkozy wishes to commit genocide, and to claim so is monumentally ludicrous.

Every time you even attempt to draw a parallel between the two, you spit on the graves of the people who died in those concentration camps by trivialising the suffering they endured.

Don't be ridiculous. Sarkozy is a douche, but he is not a Nazi.

He is not a nazi, but he shares part of the nazi ideology and methods. Only a part of it, but still a part of it. It's not just the "le travail c'est la liberté", it's also many other things he said and did, like his "travail, ordre, patrie" values, like sending the cops to arrest children at the doors of schools, like repressing demonstrations, like controlling and censoring the media, like wanting to register "furture criminals" at the age of 3 or speaking of the genetic causes of crime, like speaking of "cleansing", making fun of defenders of Human Rights, and so on.

He won't murder millions of persons, but he still share part of this ideology, event he doesn't want to use it to its ultimate end.

It is not, I repeat, not at all the "same idea" or "same ideology".

Sure, "work is freedom" and "work makes you free" are not the same thing at al...

One was used by the Nazis in fucking concentration camps where they worked and gassed people to death, and the other is used by a politician whose country faces severe unemployment issues and who has chosen that the correction of those be one of his primary goals;

Not really. The "work is freedom" of Sarkozy is not about people who don't have work, but about is whole "work more" propaganda, his opposition to the reduction of working time, his will to "encourage" people to work extra hours. It's all about his glorification of "work" and "working more", which is very close to that part of the nazi/fascist ideology.

there is not one iota of reason to suspect that Sarkozy wishes to commit genocide, and to claim so is monumentally ludicrous.

There are two things in nazism. One is the "classical" fascism, which is very similar to what Mussolini or Franco did. The other one is the racist, antisemitist, genocidal part. Sarkozy doesn't share at all this part. But "Arbeit macht frei" is from the first part of nazism, not from the second one. It has nothing to do with jews, it was on concentration camps when they were created for political prisonners, *before* he started to send jews too there.

Every time you even attempt to draw a parallel between the two, you spit on the graves of the people who died in those concentration camps by trivialising the suffering they endured. Shame on you.

That's why the few remaining people from the Resistance called officially, as the members of the Resistance, to defeat Sarkozy ? They never did it before, in a "normal" left-right choice. But they did it this time, because Sarkozy is not just a right-wing president, but one of the extreme right, who takes *part* the fascist ideology and methods.

He is not a nazi, but he shares part of the nazi ideology and methods. Only a part of it, but still a part of it. It's not just the "le travail c'est la liberté", it's also many other things he said and did, like his "travail, ordre, patrie" values, like sending the cops to arrest children at the doors of schools, like repressing demonstrations, like controlling and censoring the media, like wanting to register "furture criminals" at the age of 3 or speaking of the genetic causes of crime, like speaking of "cleansing", making fun of defenders of Human Rights, and so on.

He won't murder millions of persons, but he still share part of this ideology, event he doesn't want to use it to its ultimate end.

Sure, "work is freedom" and "work makes you free" are not the same thing at al...

Not really. The "work is freedom" of Sarkozy is not about people who don't have work, but about is whole "work more" propaganda, his opposition to the reduction of working time, his will to "encourage" people to work extra hours. It's all about his glorification of "work" and "working more", which is very close to that part of the nazi/fascist ideology.

There are two things in nazism. One is the "classical" fascism, which is very similar to what Mussolini or Franco did. The other one is the racist, antisemitist, genocidal part. Sarkozy doesn't share at all this part. But "Arbeit macht frei" is from the first part of nazism, not from the second one. It has nothing to do with jews, it was on concentration camps when they were created for political prisonners, *before* he started to send jews too there.

That's why the few remaining people from the Resistance called officially, as the members of the Resistance, to defeat Sarkozy ? They never did it before, in a "normal" left-right choice. But they did it this time, because Sarkozy is not just a right-wing president, but one of the extreme right, who takes *part* the fascist ideology and methods.

Your little tirade is ridiculous and simply laughable at that. That you would even stoop so low as to accuse him of being a Nazi sympathiser... preposterous. You might fool one or more people on here with it, though, which is even sadder than that you probably believe the nonsense you wrote.

Your little tirade is ridiculous and simply laughable at that. That you would even stoop so low as to accuse him of being a Nazi sympathiser... preposterous. You might fool one or more people on here with it, though, which is even sadder than that you probably believe the nonsense you wrote.

funny how you completely eclipsed his point with your repetitive strawmen and nitpicking.

Your little tirade is ridiculous and simply laughable at that. That you would even stoop so low as to accuse him of being a Nazi sympathiser... preposterous.

You're the laughable one. I never accused him of being a nazi sympathiser, but of sharing *some* of the ideology behind nazism. But it seems you can only think in absolutes, that "some" has no meaning for you, that anything a bit more complex than "he is" or "he is not" is too complex for you... and you speak of laughable ?

You're the laughable one. I never accused him of being a nazi sympathiser, but of sharing *some* of the ideology behind nazism. But it seems you can only think in absolutes, that "some" has no meaning for you, that anything a bit more complex than "he is" or "he is not" is too complex for you... and you speak of laughable ?

The Nazis built roads and didn't think unemployment was good. So, any government that builds roads and thinks unemployment is bad shares "some" of the "ideology behind Nazism"?

Drawing such a parallel is inherently inane for, what should be to anyone with an ounce of sense, obvious reasons. What you're doing is trying to draw such an idiotic parallel. Yes, that is what makes you laughable - "the Nazis built roads! This politician wants to build roads! Therefore he's like a Nazi! Never mind that he doesn't want to build the roads using slave labour - he wants to build roads, and that's enough! Same thing for employment! The Nazis thought employment was good! He thinks so too! So he's like a Nazi! Never mind that he doesn't want to do anything about it like the Nazis did - he "shares" their want for people not to be unemployed, therefore he is like them!"

It is simply an imbecilic smear attempt. You know damn well what accusing someone of being like a Nazi stands for, and it ain't got shit to do about road building or employment policies.

The Nazis built roads and didn't think unemployment was good. So, any government that builds roads and thinks unemployment is bad shares "some" of the "ideology behind Nazism"?

Well, no, because those are universal and not specific to nazism. Linking work and freedom, references to eugenism (wanting to detect criminals at the age of 3 and saying the pedophilia is genetic), arresting children at school's doors and many others of the things I said before are specific to totalitarian regimes, not to nazism (I never said "nazism", I spoke of fascism as a whole), but to totalitarian regimes, especially fascists one (but also by stalinist regimes).

That's where the key difference is.

And once again, I never said he's "like" a nazi, if you can only understand absolutes, I cannot do anything for you.

It is simply an imbecilic smear attempt. You know damn well what accusing someone of being like a Nazi stands for, and it ain't got shit to do about road building or employment policies.

I didn't accuse anyone of "being like a nazi" but of "doing *some* things and saying *some* things like the nazi and other totalitarian regimes did". And it has a lot to do about employment policies when your solution to fight unemployment involves blaming a part of the population and wanting to kick it out...