NationStates Jolt Archive

...is itself a bit of a 'mickey mouse effort' as we say here.

Memri, the "research institute" which specialises in translating portions of the Arabic media into English, has issued a video clip from a children's programme on Hamas TV in which it claims that a Palestinian girl talked of becoming a suicide bomber and annihilating the Jews.

Memri - described by New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman as "invaluable" - supplies translations free of charge to journalists, politicians and others, particularly in the US.

Though Memri claims to be "independent" and maintains that it does not "advocate causes or take sides", it is run by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence. Carmon's partner in setting up Memri was Meyrav Wurmser who in 1996 was one of the authors of the now-infamous "Clean Break" document which proposed reshaping Israel's "strategic environment" in the Middle East, starting with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

(I might add that as far as I call Ms Wurmsers Husband, David is associated with many members the PNAC organisation and was an adviser to Dick Cheney. Both are associated with hard-line Likud policies)

Among those misled by Memri's "translation" was Glenn Beck of CNN, who had planned to run it on his radio programme, until his producer told him to stop. Beck informed listeners this was because CNN's Arabic department had found "massive problems" with it.

Details of those are contained in the main article here
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2007/05/arabic_under_fire.html.printer.friendly

I knew it! I watched those broadcasts on Youtube, and all I could think was how I was having to rely on subtitles "translated" by someone I didn't even know, who might have some agenda. So I gave Hamas Mickey the benefit of the doubt.

Here's the lesson for today. Never stop being sceptical. Never take anything at it's face value. Kudos to those that investigated this further.

I was especially suspicious of the, "I will commit Martyrdom" line. That was just ridiculous.

I knew it! I watched those broadcasts on Youtube, and all I could think was how I was having to rely on subtitles "translated" by someone I didn't even know, who might have some agenda. So I gave Hamas Mickey the benefit of the doubt.

Here's the lesson for today. Never stop being sceptical. Never take anything at it's face value. Kudos to those that investigated this further.

I was especially suspicious of the, "I will commit Martyrdom" line. That was just ridiculous.
The 'I will commit martyrdom' line seems to be the one that's been fudged the least, though. 'I'll become a martyr' and 'I will commit martyrdom' aren't that far apart, although I suppose I do agree with the point in the article.

The 'I will commit martyrdom' line seems to be the one that's been fudged the least, though. 'I'll become a martyr' and 'I will commit martyrdom' aren't that far apart, although I suppose I do agree with the point in the article.

In wording, yes they are similiar, but still quite different. That use of the word "I will commit" sounds more like she wants to bomb someone, than if he just says, "I will be a martyr".

My own suspicion was aroused by the supposed comment of the little girl on becoming a suicide bomber. Female suicide bombers are rare for obvious reasons and the odds of a conservative body like Hamas promoting girl suicide bombers are way against it.

I knew it! I watched those broadcasts on Youtube, and all I could think was how I was having to rely on subtitles "translated" by someone I didn't even know, who might have some agenda. So I gave Hamas Mickey the benefit of the doubt.

Here's the lesson for today. Never stop being sceptical. Never take anything at it's face value. Kudos to those that investigated this further.

I was especially suspicious of the, "I will commit Martyrdom" line. That was just ridiculous. breaking NEWS.. FOX.. breaking NEWS.. breaking NEWS.. CNN.. breaking NEWS.. breaking NEWS..

The president of Iranamile said he will "wipe out" the peaceful country of Isnotreal..

This outrageous statement is be the ultimate proof we needed -to start war- by assassinating their ebil scientists and bombing their ebil research facilities.

In wording, yes they are similiar, but still quite different. That use of the word "I will commit" sounds more like she wants to bomb someone, than if he just says, "I will be a martyr".
I know, I'm just saying that it sounds like it could be an easy mistake to make on the translator's part, and not necessarily the best example the translator has an agenda.

Why would you try to fudge the translation on that and run the risk of getting caught (which it did) when the actual translation is still really scary in the context of being taught to kids by cartoon characters.

Why would you try to fudge the translation on that and run the risk of getting caught (which it did) when the actual translation is still really scary in the context of being taught to kids by cartoon characters.

Because not everybody who sees it initially will notice the follow up. As it feeds and builds existing prejudices its not saying anything that a large section can't swallow easily, thus shoring up the desired image of the evil Palestinean hell bent on destruction for destructions sake.

Why would you try to (mislead the public) and run the risk of getting caught (which it did) ( Nigerian cake any one?) because nothing ever happens to the people fabricating the lies.

Do you really think the ex-colonel in Israeli military intelligence will lose his job at Mermi ???

-in a worst case scenario for the liars-.. If (and this is a big "if") this "accidental" lie get a lot of attention.. Mermi will just change names.. with the same people running the newly created "research" institution.

It figures that the translation wasn't accurate.

So is there an real translation available?

Are there alternative translations?

had a feeling something like this would come out.

Are there alternative translations?

Maybe wait for Al-Jazeera to run it? Either that or get a friend you trust who has an understanding of Arabic.

I just realized something. Olmert generally doesn't make public announcements on TV in English does he?

What do you think the uproar would be if he was subbed with a couple of lines from Mein Kampf?

had a feeling something like this would come out.

The anti-Israel lobby hates Memri with a passion, and seeks to discredit them as aggressively as possible, simply because the words of the radical Islamist groups it translates harm their arguments.

...is itself a bit of a 'mickey mouse effort' as we say here.



(I might add that as far as I call Ms Wurmsers Husband, David is associated with many members the PNAC organisation and was an adviser to Dick Cheney. Both are associated with hard-line Likud policies)



Details of those are contained in the main article here
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2007/05/arabic_under_fire.html.printer.friendly

I have to shamefully admit, I was fooled. Although it's still EXTREME propaganda, at least Hamas aren't terrorists in their own right.

...is itself a bit of a 'mickey mouse effort' as we say here.

Details of those are contained in the main article here
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2007/05/arabic_under_fire.html.printer.friendly

Very interesting, but it should be noted that, while Brian Whitaker was criticising Memri's translation, he does not deny the intent or message of the programme. He clarifies his position on the Comment is Free thread you link to:

Brian Whitaker here. Just to re-emphasise: I would not in any way seek to excuse Hamas for its abuse of children in this way. There is plenty of information about the programme from other sources which, as far as I know, is accurate. The point of this article, though, is to question Memri's translation.

EDIT: and several people are questioning the accuracy of Whitaker's translation. I don't speak Arabic so I'm in no position to judge who's right.

Maybe wait for Al-Jazeera to run it? Either that or get a friend you trust who has an understanding of Arabic.

I just realized something. Olmert generally doesn't make public announcements on TV in English does he?

What do you think the uproar would be if he was subbed with a couple of lines from Mein Kampf?

Perhaps though I know I'd laugh my ass off.

The anti-Israel lobby hates Memri with a passion, and seeks to discredit them as aggressively as possible...yeah.. them.. the ebil Terrorwist scum !!!

they found a terrible way to discredit this fair-and-balanced Research institution (Memri).

They made up a story abut Memri being run by a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence ..
It must be a lie!!
Fucking anti-Semite liars !!!

;)

yeah.. ebil Terrorwist scum !!!

they found a terrible way to discredit this fair-and-balanced Research institution (Memri).

They made up a story abut Memri being run by a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence ..
It must be a lie!!
Fucking anti-Semite liars !!!

;)

I'm no apologist for Memri but most of the criticisms listed on Wikipedia are simply that they choose to translate a disproportionate number of negative, anti-semetic documents. Only a few people accuse them of outright dishonesty in translation.

Here's the lesson for today. Never stop being sceptical. Never take anything at it's face value. Kudos to those that investigated this further.

Indeed. :)

Should it also be mentioned that the show was removed? By Fatah, as far as I can recall?

yeah.. them.. the ebil Terrorwist scum !!!

they found a terrible way to discredit this fair-and-balanced Research institution (Memri).

They made up a story abut Memri being run by a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence ..
It must be a lie!!
Fucking anti-Semite liars !!!

;)

Cut the polemics and stop being a douche, that post only makes your argument seem even weaker. I never charged the critics of Memri with being terrorists. Yes, they translate stuff that is more inflammatory than the average, but that doesn't change the fact that it is indeed part of the discourse. Do they have a political bent? Sure. Does that bent discredit all information coming from them? Absolutely not.

The anti-Israel lobby hates Memri with a passion, and seeks to discredit them as aggressively as possible, simply because the words of the radical Islamist groups it translates harm their arguments.


Hmmm, I can't think of anything that undermines the right of a people to self-determination.

The biggest factor undermining Memri is its members and founders. A quick glance throws up a list thats so much "the usual suspects" its laughable.


EDIT: and several people are questioning the accuracy of Whitaker's translation. I don't speak Arabic so I'm in no position to judge who's right..

And the CNN translation people who wouldnt let it air....?

Does anyone have an accurate translation of this mickey mouse thing? I would really like to know if MEMRI took a hateful indoctrination of children into a violent ideology and exaggerated it a little or if they took a normal kids show and changed it all around.

Hmmm, I can't think of anything that undermines the right of a people to self-determination.

The biggest factor undermining Memri is its members and founders. A quick glance throws up a list thats so much "the usual suspects" its laughable.


Participating in continuous attacks against another sovereign nation undermines a peoples right to self determination. The Arabs would do the same to the Israelis if they were stronger, but it turns out that the Israelis are the stronger party.

On the second point, do you expect the Arabs to put translate unflattering news broadcasts that they put out? That Memri has a political bent is irrelevant, because the stuff that they provide us with is accurate, if not entirely representative of Arab television.

There's a very good reason Arafat's speeches in English and Arabic were often radically different...

And the CNN translation people who wouldnt let it air....?

Did you read the quote from the author of the article you cite?

Does anyone have an accurate translation of this mickey mouse thing? I would really like to know if MEMRI took a hateful indoctrination of children into a violent ideology and exaggerated it a little or if they took a normal kids show and changed it all around.Dont be silly, they dont need to Change it all around.. all they need is to twist a word here.. and a word there..

something like this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12659643&postcount=6):
breaking NEWS.. FOX.. breaking NEWS.. breaking NEWS.. CNN.. breaking NEWS.. breaking NEWS..

The president of Iranamile said he will "wipe out" the peaceful country of Isnotreal..

This outrageous statement is be the ultimate proof we needed -to start war- by assassinating their ebil scientists and bombing their ebil research facilities.

Participating in continuous attacks against another sovereign nation undermines a peoples right to self determination. The Arabs would do the same to the Israelis if they were stronger, but it turns out that the Israelis are the stronger party. ...


Last time I checked, when you were occupied it was "resistance". Perhaps if that soverign nation got itself and its colonists back to their side of the border
they'd have considerably less aimed at them - not that it seems a particularily terrifying threat, given their continued expansion of civillian housing in the area.


On the second point, do you expect the Arabs to put translate unflattering news broadcasts that they put out? That Memri has a political bent is irrelevant, because the stuff that they provide us with is accurate, if not entirely representative of Arab television.



Memri concentrates on the Falwells and Phelps of the Arab world, removes and distorts context, to add to the portrait of the Arab world in general and Palestinians in particular as radicalised Islamists. Its members and backers are - to put it mildly - not unknown for playing fast and loose with the truth, and have a right wing ideology that many in Israel would disown.

Did you read the quote from the author of the article you cite?

Indeed I did. Did you read the part about CNN's Arabic department not agreeing with the Memri version either?

Indeed I did. Did you read the part about CNN's Arabic department not agreeing with the Memri version either?

Certainly, but apparently the argument is over the translation rather than with the message it conveys. I'm not at all surprised to find that Memri are distorting the translation, but the fact remains that Hamas were using a Mickey Mouse figure to incite violence. For example:

In the Hamas video clip issued by Memri, a Mickey Mouse lookalike asks a young girl what she will do "for the sake of al-Aqsa". Apparently trying to prompt an answer, the mouse makes a rifle-firing gesture and says "I'll shoot".

The child says: "I'm going to draw a picture."

Memri's translation ignores this remark and instead quotes the child (wrongly) as saying: "I'll shoot."

Clearly the translation has crassly exagerated the propaganda, but nobody seems to deny that the Mouse is encouraging children to fight.

Last time I checked, when you were occupied it was "resistance". Perhaps if that soverign nation got itself and its colonists back to their side of the border
they'd have considerably less aimed at them - not that it seems a particularily terrifying threat, given their continued expansion of civillian housing in the area.

Memri concentrates on the Falwells and Phelps of the Arab world, removes and distorts context, to add to the portrait of the Arab world in general and Palestinians in particular as radicalised Islamists. Its members and backers are - to put it mildly - not unknown for playing fast and loose with the truth, and have a right wing ideology that many in Israel would disown.

Can you provide links that show that MEMRI falsified their reports?

I think you need to read Hamas' charter for yourself, then reconsider what kind of people you're supporting here. I used to think just like you, and then after I researched the matter, I realised I've been conned by the same school of thought that was in cahoots with Hitler all those years ago.

Hamas' charter: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Let me know what you think of it please.

The long long story of Islamists and Fascists: http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/ -- this is just one site which I think does the best job to explain it, but you're of course welcome to check other sources. I have and found what was on that site to be true, but just for completeness, here is a wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni

Note especially this sentence:
Mohammad Amin al-Husayni (ca. 1895 - July 4, 1974, أمين الحسيني, alternatively spelt al-Husseini), the Mufti of Jerusalem, was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and a Muslim religious leader. Known for his anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, al-Husayni fought against the establishment of a Jewish state in the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine. To this end, Husayni collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II and helped recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS.

Certainly, but apparently the argument is over the translation rather than with the message it conveys. I'm not at all surprised to find that Memri are distorting the translation, but the fact remains that Hamas were using a Mickey Mouse figure to incite violence.
And Israeli ex-intelligence was distorting it to make it look it was worse than it was to an ignorant, already inflamed Western audience.

It seems to be saying that he'll take one course of action (shooting), while the girl talks about 'resisting' or at least thats what I got out of it. Having read and seen them talking about attending school as an act of resistance and defiance, thats fairly wide open to interpretation.

Too bad there doesn't seem to be an Arab organization dedicated to translating this crap accurately and getting this stuff out in the open so it can be dealt with.

And Israeli ex-intelligence was distorting it to make it look it was worse than it was to an ignorant, already inflamed Western audience.

And the distortion was probably unnecessary as the original script was still pretty unpleasant...

It's interesting to note that Memri translations are usually pretty accurate, just unrepresentative. This seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Too bad there doesn't seem to be an Arab organization dedicated to translating this crap accurately and getting this stuff out in the open so it can be dealt with.


But like I said, its not even a question of accuracy, its a question of context. Imagine a 10 part series on the US, where they only interview the religous right.

It seems to be saying that he'll take one course of action (shooting), while the girl talks about 'resisting' or at least thats what I got out of it. Having read and seen them talking about attending school as an act of resistance and defiance, thats fairly wide open to interpretation.

Certainly. I would have thought that within the context of Hamas' ideology resistance would be likely to be meant in a violent context, but I seem to remember their manifesto having a fairly strong emphasis on the importance of Islamic education. It's not really possible to know without seeing it in context, and Memri seem to have bolted together a series of short clips rather than showing one whole programme.

I might add that I don't dispute either the religous overtones or propoganda.....just that without context its very hard to judge what the fuck they're on about.

But like I said, its not even a question of accuracy, its a question of context. Imagine a 10 part series on the US, where they only interview the religous right.

You mean rebroadcasting the 700 club?

But like I said, its not even a question of accuracy, its a question of context. Imagine a 10 part series on the US, where they only interview the religous right.

That would be a good point if the religious right were putting on programs that incite kids to violence. The stuff I've seen from MEMRI, if even half of it is correct, is insane.

Also I wouldn't mind people revealing what the religious right are up to and what they believe. Understanding what extremists of whatever religion are up to is important in controling them and minimizing the damage they can do.

But like I said, its not even a question of accuracy, its a question of context. Imagine a 10 part series on the US, where they only interview the religous right.

There was that one movie Jesus Camp (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/). I'm sure it's been subtitled other languages, too.

There was that one movie Jesus Camp (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/). I'm sure it's been subtitled other languages, too.

And the book Kingdom Coming (http://www.kingdomcoming.com/).

And the book Kingdom Coming (http://www.kingdomcoming.com/).

The ones about the rapture....accidentally rented a movie based on one of them...head of the UN is the anti-christ etc...can't remember the fucking name of the poxy things now.....apparently they actually shift copies.

Left behind, thats them....

Can you provide links that show that MEMRI falsified their reports? :

I would have though the one in this thread a good enough start...

"falsify"? They massage them. Wee nudge here and a wee poke there. I've explained what they do earlier.

Why do you think CNN wouldn't broadcast them?


I think you need to read Hamas' charter for yourself, then reconsider what kind of people you're supporting here. I used to think just like you, and then after I researched the matter, I realised I've been conned by the same school of thought that was in cahoots with Hitler all those years ago.

Hamas' charter: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Let me know what you think of it please.

The long long story of Islamists and Fascists: http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/ -- this is just one site which I think does the best job to explain it, but you're of course welcome to check other sources. I have and found what was on that site to be true, but just for completeness, here is a wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni

Note especially this sentence:

Ahh yes, the old chestnut of the Mufti. If I had a quid for everytime this shite comes up I'd be a wealthy, wealthy man.

One man does not a nation of nazis make. And seeing as the 'former' nazis had their own armed forces back within 10 years of being defeated, it really invalidates the collaboration of a few gobshites as a reason to deny Palestinian statehood and continue the occupation.

And where did I 'support' Hamas? Just as a matter of interest.

And where did I 'support' Hamas? Just as a matter of interest.

The moment you didn't thump support for what looks like manipulation of translation to make things look worse for Hamas. It's a common trick for these kinds of people, the "If you aren't with us, you're against us" crap.

And where did I 'support' Hamas? Just as a matter of interest.The moment you did not offer your unconditional support for Israel.

If you dont want to be labeled "aTerrorist-supporter" or "anti-semite".. you must support whatever-is-good-for-Israel.

Ahh yes. I remember when I was relatively naive as to what people come out with. Somebody said supporting a withdrawal from the territories was "anti-semitic". I said 'bollocks' (or words to the effect) and produced a few Jewish organisations that said more or less exactly what I did - "quislings", says the genius.

Regardless the accuracy of the translation, it's still highly dispicable that Hamas would use Mickey Mouse for their ends. You have to wonder if those people even have souls, on occasion.

...is itself a bit of a 'mickey mouse effort' as we say here.



(I might add that as far as I call Ms Wurmsers Husband, David is associated with many members the PNAC organisation and was an adviser to Dick Cheney. Both are associated with hard-line Likud policies)



Details of those are contained in the main article here
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_whitaker/2007/05/arabic_under_fire.html.printer.friendly

It can't be that innacurate. In this screen the Mickey Mouse imposter can be seen firing an imaginary AK-47.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3440/001ke9.jpg

It can't be that innacurate. In this screen the Mickey Mouse imposter can be seen firing an imaginary AK-47.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3440/001ke9.jpg


Well its hardly going to be an imaginary Galil now, is it?

We should just sue the hell out of Hamas for copyright infringement. Time to fight them the good old fashioned way...economic warfare. Maybe we could donate the money to the ADL just to piss them off even more.

We should just sue the hell out of Hamas for copyright infringement. Time to fight them the good old fashioned way...economic warfare. Maybe we could donate the money to the ADL just to piss them off even more.


No, Simon Wisenthal centre, or towards rebuilding Synagogues in Eastern Europe. ADL seems to be far too political in many of its pronouncements.

No, Simon Wisenthal centre, or towards rebuilding Synagogues in Eastern Europe. ADL seems to be far too political in many of its pronouncements.

I'd have to agree with that.

It can't be that innacurate. In this screen the Mickey Mouse imposter can be seen firing an imaginary AK-47.



"Children are raped somtimes."

Translated: "Sometimes I rape children".

Val, in translation, accuracy is key.