NationStates Jolt Archive

Do people have the right to easy access to suicide?

Got into a brief debate about assisted suicide the other day and it got me thinking.

I held the viewpoint that, sure, everyone has a right to kill themselves, but that assisted suicide is not a right.

I personally recoil from such an idea as assisted suicide, but I also recoil from the idea of personal opinions dictating policy.

So I tried to find a couple of real reasons why assisted suicide isn't a good thing. A couple of the objections:
~It would make suicide easier, and thus, a path more often taken.
~It would somewhat diminish the chance for people to have second thoughts.
~It would be difficult to draw a line. How to regulate, in other words.
~How to treat minors, in particular.
~The negative effects it would have on the living, particularly the loved ones left behind, and the person who aids the suicide.

I see the logic behind the other side as well. So I'm open to persuasion. What do you all think?

Fuck, man, if someone wants to kill themselves, let them have at it. Fucking a fat woman isn't necessarily a right, but people do it anyway. It's part of an unwritten code.

Oh, yes, and, er, wha? Oh, yes policy is dictated by personal opinion.

Fuck, man, if someone wants to kill themselves, let them have at it. Fucking a fat woman isn't necessarily a right, but people do it anyway. It's part of an unwritten code.

Oh, yes, and, er, wha? Oh, yes policy is dictated by personal opinion.

He has a point, people have been fucking fat woman for to long! its time to take a stand!

Fuck, man, if someone wants to kill themselves, let them have at it. Fucking a fat woman isn't necessarily a right, but people do it anyway. It's part of an unwritten code.

Oh, yes, and, er, wha? Oh, yes policy is dictated by personal opinion.

Lol I can't believe suicide was just compared to fucking a fat woman

Do people have the right to easy access to suicide?

Got into a brief debate about assisted suicide the other day and it got me thinking.

I held the viewpoint that, sure, everyone has a right to kill themselves, but that assisted suicide is not a right.

I personally recoil from such an idea as assisted suicide, but I also recoil from the idea of personal opinions dictating policy.

So I tried to find a couple of real reasons why assisted suicide isn't a good thing. A couple of the objections:
~It would make suicide easier, and thus, a path more often taken.
~It would somewhat diminish the chance for people to have second thoughts.
~It would be difficult to draw a line. How to regulate, in other words.
~How to treat minors, in particular.
~The negative effects it would have on the living, particularly the loved ones left behind, and the person who aids the suicide.

I see the logic behind the other side as well. So I'm open to persuasion. What do you all think?

I think its very easy to commit suicide as it is so I see no reason for assisted suicide except for those who physically couldn't perform the act due to disability, etc

It is almost a non-sequitor to talk about the right to suicide, since, legal or not, if someone wants to die, they can usually find a way. The issue only arises in the (I have no statistics, but assume extemely rare) case of someone who wants to die but is unable to accomplish their goal. It is a grey area, but can most likely be dealt with on a case by case basis. Many people overestimate the extent to which life needs to be legislated.

no I'm not for idiots killing themselves regardless of what the people around them feel about it and how it might affect them

Lol I can't believe suicide was just compared to fucking a fat woman

Which would you be more embarrassed to be caught doing?

It freaking should be.

Lol I can't believe suicide was just compared to fucking a fat woman
Well...you have only been here a month...

Which would you be more embarrassed to be caught doing?

Sex. . . death . . . sex . . . death . . . .

I'd hit the fat girl first.

Which would you be more embarrassed to be caught doing?

I don't tend to have that high standards when it comes to womens looks (when drinking) so its pretty well documented by my friends how wide ranging my tastes can be :D

How about this - suicide is legal at specified centers. You go in one day and register for death. They do a full medical workup on you to find out how healthy you are - if you are suffering from severe mental instability they might commit you for treatment instead.

These tests make sure your organs are healthy and what your blood type happens to be. The next day you come back - if you still want to die. This is your mandatory 'second thoughts' period as well as time to arrange recipients for your organs. You see - this way your death is controlled so that your organs are not harmed and can be used to save the lives of other people.

People who want to die can die - if they have any salvageable body parts, they get to help others. Benefit to those who would otherwise suffer a fairly unpleasant death, benefit to those who want to live. Win-win.

Which would you be more embarrassed to be caught doing?

Commiting suicide while fucking a fat girl 'nods'

Commiting suicide while fucking a fat girl 'nods'

Strange. I saw a picture of the exact same thing on Thursday last week. Although it was a murder-suicide

When someone has become a "veggi" then they got the right. But other they that, for emotional resones, that I feel they need help dealing with it.

~It would make suicide easier, and thus, a path more often taken.

Seen the population figures recently? I think we could stand with a good die-off, especially if it's voluntary.

~It would somewhat diminish the chance for people to have second thoughts.

Ever hear of the word stop? Clearly it should be required that they give the to-be-deceased the opportunity the entire way along. There certainly could be problems, otherwise, with "I wish I were dead." *BAM*.

~It would be difficult to draw a line. How to regulate, in other words.

Not terribly.

~How to treat minors, in particular.

Remove minors from the equasion. Suck it up until you're eighteen.

[quote]~The negative effects it would have on the living, particularly the loved ones left behind, and the person who aids the suicide.
/QUOTE]

Which I don't see as likely to be terribly different from if someone kills themselves, except in the case of the assistant.

So I tried to find a couple of real reasons why assisted suicide isn't a good thing. A couple of the objections:
~It would make suicide easier, and thus, a path more often taken.

So? People shouldn't be forced into an unlivable life by making the method of escape more difficult. Their lives, their choice. So what if they want to kill themselves? Suicide isn't necessarily a bad thing, at least not for the suicidee. Dying a slower, more agonizing death seems the worse choice.

~It would somewhat diminish the chance for people to have second thoughts.

Not really. Assisted suicide isn't forced. Up until the last minute, you can always back out, unless you've chosen a homicidal doctor.

~It would be difficult to draw a line. How to regulate, in other words.

Well, that is a toughy. Mental health screenings, some criteria (disease, bodily infermity, what have you), strict monitoring to make sure it isn't being abused by doctors or family members (pressuring the elderly into it for, say, inheritance). The latter is a danger, that it will become expected of the elderly to kill themselves in order to make it easier on the survivors (no long, drawn out medical battle, eating away at the estate).

~How to treat minors, in particular.

Same as elderly. Mental screenings, therapy to make sure it isn't just a phase (which is almost always is with minors), and certain criteria that must be met. Much as with any medical procedure. Can't just sign on because your girlfriend broke up with you.
~The negative effects it would have on the living, particularly the loved ones left behind, and the person who aids the suicide.

One could use much the same arguments against something like abortion or capital punishment. Assisted suicide isn't euthanasia (a whole 'nother set of problems), so no doctor is actually killing the person, at least given conventional methods. It is up to the person to swallow the pills, push the plunger down on the syringe, or give the go ahead to take off life-support. Whatever the method. Just as long as there is always the chance to back out, and it is the person's choice, not the doctor's/family's.

As for the people left behind, well, tough for them. It's not their life. The suicidal person shouldn't be forced to stay alive just for his/her family's sake. What kind of prison would that be? If those left behind weren't so selfish, they'd be glad that the person was getting the release he or she wants so badly. It's always struck me as strange when people talk about how selfish those who commit suicide are. Isn't it even more selfish to demand that someone stay alive for YOU, no matter how miserable they are, how much they're suffering?

Yeah, i should have a right to suicide.

I don't think suicide at all is right. Especially assisted.

But I can think of a few exceptions.

After a bloody battle your barely alive and your friend is dying
Friend: "Give me my sword"

that and....

hmm....

yeah I don't think its a right thing to do. Personally I think a lot of the stupidly hard parts of life are what makes it intersting. I mean, who would want t live comfortably and happily all their life? Lol. Actually I'm sure people with comfortable lives are way more likely to kill themselves while peopel with hard lives fight to survive. Funny ain't it?

You have the right not to be interfered with in terminating your own life, however that may be arranged. Not the right to demand the means to do so though.

yeah I don't think its a right thing to do. Personally I think a lot of the stupidly hard parts of life are what makes it intersting. I mean, who would want t live comfortably and happily all their life? Lol. Actually I'm sure people with comfortable lives are way more likely to kill themselves while peopel with hard lives fight to survive. Funny ain't it?

So someone in the end stages of, say, cancer, should just put up with the unimaginable pain that can't be medicated away? You know, just stick it out, because suffering is so fun and interesting? I mean, I know every time I see people dying slowly in agony, they always look very interested about what's killing them. I mean, why would they want to give that up? After all, dying before the disease kills you is just plain immoral.

Should I even bother to roll my eyes?

As with so many other things, I've never heard a decent argument for why suicide is immoral. Even Plato tried a few, and even he knew he was full of shit.

I don't think suicide at all is right. Especially assisted.

But I can think of a few exceptions.

After a bloody battle your barely alive and your friend is dying
Friend: "Give me my sword"

that and....

hmm....

yeah I don't think its a right thing to do. Personally I think a lot of the stupidly hard parts of life are what makes it intersting. I mean, who would want t live comfortably and happily all their life? Lol. Actually I'm sure people with comfortable lives are way more likely to kill themselves while peopel with hard lives fight to survive. Funny ain't it?

Why is that any different to the person who is suffering an illness and wants assisted suicide?

Can I ask if you've ever felt suicidal or depressed?

Fuck, man, if someone wants to kill themselves, let them have at it.

Did you just encourage suicidal people to commit suicide?

Did you just encourage suicidal people to commit suicide?

Hey, maybe that's all suicidal people need, man. Some encouragement.

:)

None of you see what the problem is. The problem isn't these people committing suicide. The problem is why.

If someone is in extreme pain then they have every right to die. Emotional stress isn't a reason to die. It is just a maturity problem.

People these days have to much emotion and they can't control them. Everyone acts like prepubescent girls (which are getting worse by the way). If someone kills themselves it is just as if they died naturally and you'd just need to move on.

Emotion shouldn't dictate any government. If the People want to die let the People die. If you find it immoral than just do kill yourself.

why not?

No, just saying if someone wants to kill themselves, they have a right to.

Yeah... i know. Just the way you worded kind of maded it seem like that they should do it.

Did you just encourage suicidal people to commit suicide?

No, just saying if someone wants to kill themselves, they have a right to.

Yes. My life, my right to decide when to end it.

People should have easy acess to a Psychiatrist

Fuck, man, if someone wants to kill themselves, let them have at it. Fucking a fat woman isn't necessarily a right, but people do it anyway. It's part of an unwritten code.

Oh, yes, and, er, wha? Oh, yes policy is dictated by personal opinion.

That is the win.

Suicide is a right, since it really can't be taken away.

I'm mainly concerned with whether assisted suicide is a right. Bad title, my fault.

So, to elaborate:
I think if suicide was made an easy fail-proof thing (press the plunger and presto!), people would have a lot less reasons for talking themselves out of it. The pro list would grow and the con list would decrease.

The "second-thoughts" argument is closely tied to this. Holding a gun to your forehead takes a lot more balls than pushing barbituates into a vein. Futhermore, those who are hooked up and ready to go may take a "well, I've already went through all this trouble" philosophy and go through with the thing even though they are now having second thoughts. When suicide is a personal-- and private-- affair, you can have your second thoughts without a real or imagined public criticism.

As for regulations, if assisted suicide is a right, and is then regulated, would this not be some infringment upon my right? I feel that if it is a right, then any sort of discrimination of offering this service would then be an infringement of that right. We are saying that assisted suicide is a human right, however, 17 year old Sally, or healthy Joan can't avail herself of that right.

As for minors, in medical procedures, it is the parent or guardian that makes the final decision. I can think up some pretty warped situations.

As for those left living, my concern is mainly for the suicide assistors. That's gotta mess with you. Furthermore, who would be doing the assisting? Doctors? That is a clear conflict of interest, and a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Interesting idea here. My theory is that suicide results when people decide life isn't worth it anymore. So, instead of letting them kill themselves/helping, why not give access to experiences? Such as powerboating, skiing, snowboarding, generally fun/awesome things that suddenly make life interesting? This would be means tested though, in order to stop people simply taking the piss. XD

It is almost a non-sequitor to talk about the right to suicide, since, legal or not, if someone wants to die, they can usually find a way. The issue only arises in the (I have no statistics, but assume extemely rare) case of someone who wants to die but is unable to accomplish their goal. It is a grey area, but can most likely be dealt with on a case by case basis. Many people overestimate the extent to which life needs to be legislated.

Yay, now I don't have to say the same thing![/thread]

Interesting idea here. My theory is that suicide results when people decide life isn't worth it anymore. So, instead of letting them kill themselves/helping, why not give access to experiences? Such as powerboating, skiing, snowboarding, generally fun/awesome things that suddenly make life interesting? This would be means tested though, in order to stop people simply taking the piss. XD

And eventually they'd have the fun taken away, because they were better... And what then?
"If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor."

I think to help them out if they fail to commit suicide it shall be a crime punishable by death just so they can get what they gets whats coming for them.

Is there anyway to edit the title?

Is there anyway to edit the title?

Ask the mods, they can do it.

i searched wikipedia for an article on assisted suicide, but it linked to euthanasia, is this the same? i thought that AS was a doctor or another person suplying poison or something to someone who wanted to commit suicide and that person killing himself, and euthanasia was a doctor actively 'killing' someone who consented to this and who was extremely ill. Is ther a difference betwen the two?

I think if suicide was made an easy fail-proof thing (press the plunger and presto!), people would have a lot less reasons for talking themselves out of it. The pro list would grow and the con list would decrease.

The "second-thoughts" argument is closely tied to this. Holding a gun to your forehead takes a lot more balls than pushing barbituates into a vein. Futhermore, those who are hooked up and ready to go may take a "well, I've already went through all this trouble" philosophy and go through with the thing even though they are now having second thoughts. When suicide is a personal-- and private-- affair, you can have your second thoughts without a real or imagined public criticism.

i don't really think anyone would ask for assisted suicide without really thinking a lot about it. i think it would be less impulsive if you have to ask for assistance than if you just take a gun and put it to your head. i agree that it takes more balls to do it with a gun, but you can do that when drunk or when you're really feeling depressed, that would be hard when you ask for assistance of a doctor. And when you have second thoughts you can still say : "no". I don't think a lot of people would still kill themselves when they're doubting, it's not really something you 'just do'.

As for regulations, if assisted suicide is a right, and is then regulated, would this not be some infringment upon my right? I feel that if it is a right, then any sort of discrimination of offering this service would then be an infringement of that right. We are saying that assisted suicide is a human right, however, 17 year old Sally, or healthy Joan can't avail herself of that right.

it wouldn't be an infringment of your rights if someone didn't assist you. That's like saying that i'm infringing the rights of someone who is dying of hunger right now by not giving them food.
If you're a doctor and somebody asked you to assist them with suicide you could just say 'no' and help them find someone who would want to help them.

We are saying that assisted suicide is a human right, however, 17 year old Sally, or healthy Joan can't avail herself of that right. As for minors, in medical procedures, it is the parent or guardian that makes the final decision. I can think up some pretty warped situations.

isn't the right to vote also a right? still we don't let minors vote or drink or whatever. there are enough rights wich exclude children. why not for assisted suicide?

As for those left living, my concern is mainly for the suicide assistors. That's gotta mess with you. Furthermore, who would be doing the assisting? Doctors? That is a clear conflict of interest, and a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

you can always say no if you don't want to help someone commit suicide. I don't see the conflict of interest. I don't know if it would be unethical for a doctor to help, look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_ethics#Values_in_medical_ethics). (note that euthanasia is excluded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_ethics#Non-maleficence) from 'non maleficence' and also read the part about the double effect)

No!

No!

Care to elaborate?

And your sig is too long, sigs are limited to 8 lines.

I'd hope I had the strength to help in an assisted suicide as long as I was sure the suffering was unbearable and the person could not be healed.

Do people have the right to easy access to suicide?

Mmmhhh. I think that suicide is a right of every human - religion is another thing: if your religion says you aren't to suicide, that's your own religious problem, but religions cannot be forced on unbelievers.

Anyway, assisted suicide raises some difficult moral issues: are we absolutely sure that this person really really wants to die? Who is going to assist him in the suicide - or to kill him outright if he's physically unable to do so? And how? Suffering should be minimized, anyway.

I've heard that Switzerland has a good law about it (clearly stated will + medical and psychological assistance and tests, to be as sure of the willingness to die as it is possible and to lessen suffering), but I'm not looking for a link right now.

Lol I can't believe suicide was just compared to fucking a fat woman

Its a moral suicide.

Anyway, if people want to kill themselves, its their right, but society owns them nothing. The only assisted suicide I´m ok with is euthanasia, where a terminal diseased patient wants to end his sufering and pain before his due time.

People should have easy acess to a Psychiatrist

Certainly. And what if they still want to die after seeing a Psychiatrist?

People should have easy acess to a Psychiatrist

Agreed. Suicide is terrifyingly easy as it is, and most suicides are done on an impulse (one can be suicidal for years and still not commit suicide - the act itself is often impulsive). It's the coward's way out.

That said, if someone was, say, paralyzed to the extent of no chance of recovery and wanted to die, I see no harm in giving them the means to do so, as long as it is humane and medically controlled so as not to inflict any pain on said person.

That's why pets are taken to the vet to "be put to sleep", after all: to prevent them from further unnecessary suffering.

Having been suicidal myself, I can only thank my lucky stars that I got psychiatric help in time.

I think to help them out if they fail to commit suicide it shall be a crime punishable by death just so they can get what they gets whats coming for them.

There actually is a real world country (can't remember off the top of my head) where suicide or attempt of such IS offence with death penalty, so if you're found to have attempted suicide and failed, you will be executed. Don't know the rates of suicide in the country, but it might be interesting data... :p

Agreed. Suicide is terrifyingly easy as it is, and most suicides are done on an impulse (one can be suicidal for years and still not commit suicide - the act itself is often impulsive). It's the coward's way out.

I'd say its not a case of courage or cowardice. It just seems logical at the time

Agreed. Suicide is terrifyingly easy as it is, and most suicides are done on an impulse (one can be suicidal for years and still not commit suicide - the act itself is often impulsive). It's the coward's way out.

That said, if someone was, say, paralyzed to the extent of no chance of recovery and wanted to die, I see no harm in giving them the means to do so, as long as it is humane and medically controlled so as not to inflict any pain on said person.

That's why pets are taken to the vet to "be put to sleep", after all: to prevent them from further unnecessary suffering.

Having been suicidal myself, I can only thank my lucky stars that I got psychiatric help in time.

I wouldn't ever help a person commit suicide because, "Life Sucks" or "My girlfriend left me and her new boyfriend stole my truck and in the process ran over my dog." The only reasons that I can see for suicide are medical reasons. And if the medical establishment won't do what is best for the person, well... then...

If you're coward enough, or stupid enough, to off yourself just because you're a little down in the dumps, do it. The world won't be any poorer, I'm sure, so stop fucking around.

That said, I have a permanent and excrutiating disease in my hips and spine, ankylosing spondilytis. Eventually my spine is going to fuse into a block o' bone, and my mobility is going to drop to near zero. I'm only 23 and at times, the pain is already nearly unbearable. As I get older, it's going to get exponentially worse, doubtlessly leaving me bed-ridden. I don't want that. I have no interest in laying in bed and weeping as life goes on around me. Instead, I'm going to kiss my wife and children, tell them all how much I love them and how very proud they've made me, and then step on out of a life that's become tedious.

For the moment I am furiously alive, but once the time comes I hope I have the courage to do it, since nothing is more sad than a powerful person reduced to a crippled husk. Not for me, folks.

But if you're just depressed, stop being a fucking crybaby. There are alot of ways to cheer yourself up. Smoke a doob, go bowling, smile at a girl, eat some delicious bacon, buy a puppy, watch Futurama, ask a friend for a high-five, listen to the Beatles, break some glass, have an animal cracker, rent a pornographic film and masturbate until you can't lift your pills/gun, buy a Bernard Cornwell book, play Dwarf Fortress, watch the YouTube vid of the tiger attacking the jackass on the elephant, listen to Richard Pryor, take some mushrooms, ride a unicycle, blare GWAR at 3:30am in a quiet neighborhood, smoke a fine cigar, eat some Cap'n Crunch, or yes, go plough a fat chick. If a combination of the above doesn't cheer you up, you're doomed anyway.

If you're coward enough, or stupid enough, to off yourself just because you're a little down in the dumps, do it. The world won't be any poorer, I'm sure, so stop fucking around.

That said, I have a permanent and excrutiating disease in my hips and spine, ankylosing spondilytis. Eventually my spine is going to fuse into a block o' bone, and my mobility is going to drop to near zero. I'm only 23 and at times, the pain is already nearly unbearable. As I get older, it's going to get exponentially worse, doubtlessly leaving me bed-ridden. I don't want that. I have no interest in laying in bed and weeping as life goes on around me. Instead, I'm going to kiss my wife and children, tell them all how much I love them and how very proud they've made me, and then step on out of a life that's become tedious.

For the moment I am furiously alive, but once the time comes I hope I have the courage to do it, since nothing is more sad than a powerful person reduced to a crippled husk. Not for me, folks.

But if you're just depressed, stop being a fucking crybaby. There are alot of ways to cheer yourself up. Smoke a doob, go bowling, smile at a girl, eat some delicious bacon, buy a puppy, watch Futurama, ask a friend for a high-five, listen to the Beatles, break some glass, have an animal cracker, rent a pornographic film and masturbate until you can't lift your pills/gun, buy a Bernard Cornwell book, play Dwarf Fortress, watch the YouTube vid of the tiger attacking the jackass on the elephant, listen to Richard Pryor, take some mushrooms, ride a unicycle, blare GWAR at 3:30am in a quiet neighborhood, smoke a fine cigar, eat some Cap'n Crunch, or yes, go plough a fat chick. If a combination of the above doesn't cheer you up, you're doomed anyway.

I'm of the opinion that a mental illness can be (in some forms) just as devastating as a physical one such as ankylosing spondilytis. People in general don't seem to see it in these terms though which I think is a shame since it attaches a stigma to it which can often hinder people seeking help for fear of appearing weak.

Not being a doctor or psychiatrist, I can't comment on clinical depression or anything, but again, if you're contemplating suicide because your girlfriend of two and a half weeks dumped you, because you get teased in school, or any sort of petty emotional reason, I stand by what I said. Do it. Life is much, much harder than that.

then they ask themselves why and figure out what would make then not want to kill themselves anymore...

Then you let them do it anyway. There's a point where it doesn't work anymore.

Certainly. And what if they still want to die after seeing a Psychiatrist?

then they ask themselves why and figure out what would make then not want to kill themselves anymore...

Suicide good, assisted suicide creepy.

At the end of the day, if I want to kill myself I'm going to kill myself whether or not the government has decided that I should be allowed to. Good luck prosecuting me after the event, though.

How do you punish someone who commits suicide anyway?

At the end of the day, if I want to kill myself I'm going to kill myself whether or not the government has decided that I should be allowed to. Good luck prosecuting me after the event, though.

How do you punish someone who commits suicide anyway?

The Catholics tried to do it with promises of hell (or not being able to enter heaven, not sure if that's the same thing) but so many other things lead to the same thing that it's kind of an awful double-bind. Can't have fun, can't kill yourself because of a lack of fun in your life. Ugh!

The Catholics tried to do it with promises of hell (or not being able to enter heaven, not sure if that's the same thing) but so many other things lead to the same thing that it's kind of an awful double-bind. Can't have fun, can't kill yourself because of a lack of fun in your life. Ugh!

It's very contradictory to believe in pro-life and anti-suicide.

You don't have the right to life, because it belongs to god, which brings me to this point. Free will would equal nothing if our existence was entirely in the hands of an omnipotent being.

If you're going to be pro life then believe it is the right of that person to live, and exclusively their right. Ergo it is their right to end it if they so please.

If you're going to be anti abortion then believe your life is the right of the people around you. In which case abortion would be entirely justified.

It's very contradictory to believe in pro-life and anti-suicide.

You don't have the right to life, because it belongs to god, which brings me to this point. Free will would equal nothing if our existence was entirely in the hands of an omnipotent being.

If you're going to be pro life then believe it is the right of that person to live, and exclusively their right. Ergo it is their right to end it if they so please.

If you're going to be anti abortion then believe your life is the right of the people around you. In which case abortion would be entirely justified.

You know, well-said. I am pro-choice in cases of abortion and suicide.

You know, well-said. I am pro-choice in cases of abortion and suicide.

Same, just because I see fetuses on roughly the same level as a young fish...probably less.

Same, just because I see fetus' on roughly the same level as a young fish...probably less.

Agreed! *does the Agreement Dance with Luporum*

laa laa lalala laa :D

Agreed! *does the Agreement Dance with Luporum*

laa laa lalala laa :D

NO! I M CHRSTIAN NOW!!!! :mad:

*breaths flamesz*

NO! I M CHRSTIAN NOW!!!! :mad:

*breaths flamesz*

What? :confused: :(

Well fuck it, if everyone kills themselves at the same time we won't have to worry about leaving anyone behind. We'll just be enveloped in a really large steam vent and then be hurled into the belly of the FLYING MEATBALL! THE ANTI-SPAGHETTI MONSTER!

My body, my choice. Yes, I'm pro-suicide.

they should have a place to go if you want to, and this whole thing aboubt taking people with you is bull, if your going to kill yourself, kill yourself. dont involve me or anyone else.

I think the better question to be considering is: Is suicide right for you? The answer is yes. Go now. Do it, do it.

can i ask a serious question, i wont make fun of you, are you guys goths, emos, or somebody who wants to die, no joke i wont say shit i got freinds like that.

can i ask a serious question, i wont make fun of you, are you guys goths, emos, or somebody who wants to die, no joke i wont say shit i got freinds like that.

You know, your attempt at trivialising such difficult issues as suicide and assisted suicide are is quite disgusting.

Why do you have to define a person who feels that he cannot cope with life anymore as a member of some subculture? Life and death are quite personal - by hinting that "somebody who wants to die" does so because he belongs to a "depressed" group, you are insulting the intelligence of those people.

My not-so-humble opinion, of course.;)

But if you're just depressed, stop being a fucking crybaby. There are alot of ways to cheer yourself up.

Sorry to bust your bubbles, Mr. Martyr, but clinical depression is caused by a brain chemical imbalance, not something the person suffering from it can actively affect. That would be like telling you to start getting more exercise to stop your impending immobility.

If you don't believe me, search Google for depression+serotonin and read what comes up.

can i ask a serious question, i wont make fun of you, are you guys goths, emos, or somebody who wants to die, no joke i wont say shit i got freinds like that.

Read my reply above for Mr. Martyr and accept the fact that not everyone playing this game is a teenage boy.

How do you punish someone who commits suicide anyway?

reanimating them?

Sorry to bust your bubbles, Mr. Martyr, but clinical depression is caused by a brain chemical imbalance, not something the person suffering from it can actively affect. That would be like telling you to start getting more exercise to stop your impending immobility.

If you don't believe me, search Google for depression+serotonin and read what comes up.

Yeah, thanks for that, but in order to be a martyr I would have to die, or at least hope to die, for a cause. Since I could give a fuck about depression, ankylosing sponilitys in others, or suicide in any shape or form outside of where it affects me and my family, I'm not. Now, Dictionary.com also says that if I was to exaggerate my pain or excessively seek sympathy, I could be considered a martyr. I did neither, as the pain in my hip is every bit as excrutiating as I described in my first post, and I could not care any less wether or not you have sympathy for me.

Now, my doctor -DOES- tell me to get more excersize. I do so, since it will help prolong my years of mobility and activity and yes, makes me feel better from one day to the next. A person low on seratonin, since that is your argument here, CAN actively encourage the body to produce more of it. By getting more outdoors excersize, eating certain fruits and vegetables, and even eating hallucinogenic mushrooms or licking certain poisonous toads, if that's how you get off. So, my first post's list is still very relevant, and people CAN actively effect their body's production of Seratonin. You just have to get over being sad long enough to have a few walnuts or a kiwi, and then go for a brisk jog to the mushroom dealer's house.

Now, if you would have read my second post instead of instantly quoting and trying to attack me, you would have seen that I posted that clinical depression is a different story. Some people have problems. No doubt. Post-pardum depression I've had first-hand experience with, and I'm sure other depression is every bit as bad as people say. But, if you're going to commit suicide just because you're a little down in the dumps for a day or two, I'll say "FUCKING DO IT!!!" again. Everyone gets sad and shitty sometimes. If a day of being bummed is enough to push you over the edge, you're probably doomed to failure anyway.

If a day of being bummed is enough to push you over the edge, you're probably doomed to failure anyway.

I don't think you fully understand what pushes people to suicide. Its a feeling of hopelessness. A feeling that nothing you do could possibly change things. Its not just feeling "bummed". Its crippling and a horrible thing to go through. Until you go through it I suggest you don't comment on it like that

EVERYONE gets lonely and feels helpless. It's part of the human condition.

Ever lain immobile in a hospital bed for a week? Not because of an injury, but just because your hips -refused- to work? Ever smashed a $5k hospital monitor because you were so fucking frustrated about being helpless? That's a cause for depression, brother. Read up on ankylosing spondilytis. It's hopeless, but I manage to keep a smile on my face. NOTHING I can do will change things. Nothing. Yet, somehow, I manage to keep rocking. Shit does happen, all the time. But what makes us shine is that we don't let petty shit get us down.

But, I comment on alot of things I probably shouldn't and will continue to do so, since making smug, and usually unfounded, comments is one of those little day-to-day things that helps keep me from getting too depressed myself.

then they ask themselves why and figure out what would make then not want to kill themselves anymore...

And if they decide that there's nothing which could make them want to carry on living? Suppose they had a particuarly nasty form of cancer which had eaten away their intestines and they'd started to vomit faeces?

And if they decide that there's nothing which could make them want to carry on living? Suppose they had a particuarly nasty form of cancer which had eaten away their intestines and they'd started to vomit faeces?

That's a bad day :(

Do people have the right to easy access to suicide?

Got into a brief debate about assisted suicide the other day and it got me thinking.

I held the viewpoint that, sure, everyone has a right to kill themselves, but that assisted suicide is not a right.

I personally recoil from such an idea as assisted suicide, but I also recoil from the idea of personal opinions dictating policy.

So I tried to find a couple of real reasons why assisted suicide isn't a good thing. A couple of the objections:
~It would make suicide easier, and thus, a path more often taken.
~It would somewhat diminish the chance for people to have second thoughts.
~It would be difficult to draw a line. How to regulate, in other words.
~How to treat minors, in particular.
~The negative effects it would have on the living, particularly the loved ones left behind, and the person who aids the suicide.

I see the logic behind the other side as well. So I'm open to persuasion. What do you all think?
People have the right to do whatever they wish with their own body, up to and including killing themselves. I would say that personally I feel that they should make the decision with careful consideration for everything, and should not do so if their brains are not fully matured--that is, not as a teenager--but that is my opinion on the subject. As a policy I leave it up to the person themselves to make the decision.

Here's an interesting idea:

To commit suicide is (in the case of healthy people) the most fundamental rejection of all morals and values, because our morality is built on the idea that human life has value. In a way then, you can't really say that suicide is good or bad, just the ultimate amoral act. So although we can argue about the rights of someone who wants suicide, they can never make any such claim because they have denied the foundations of those rights.

People can certainly try to kill themselves if they wish just as we have a right to try and stop them. Allowing suicide without prevention will only lead to these (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/72/200px-Suicide_Booth.JPG).

And who wants that? ;)

If a person wants to kill themself, let them. It's their body and no one has any right to dictate what they can and can't do with it.

Assisted suicide is a bit more tricky, for me anyways. If you want to kill yourself, go and do it. I don't really agree with dragging others into my personal problems, but that is my personal opinion.

What about funding for assisted suicide?

If we were to make it a part of our medical system, would it be something your insurance or medicare/medicaid would cover?

Or would this only be an option open to the very rich?

Would we privatize assisted suicide? Eeek. That could get sticky real fast...

I suppose I'm getting hung up on the practical execution of assisted suicide.

I'm definitely a fan of the death penalty for successful suicides. :D

Can't resist a decent debate, sorry about that. :D

I did neither, as the pain in my hip is every bit as excrutiating as I described in my first post

I believe that easily enough. Are you willing to believe that other people simply have the wrong chemical balance in their brains?

A person low on seratonin, since that is your argument here, CAN actively encourage the body to produce more of it.

Unfortunately not even nearly always enough of it. And in my case there are other factors complicating the situation, but those are between me and my "sanity pills". :p

Now, if you would have read my second post instead of instantly quoting and trying to attack me

Attack? I thought this was a debate? Plus I answer posts when I read them. :)

EVERYONE gets lonely and feels helpless. It's part of the human condition.

Ever lain immobile in a hospital bed for a week? Not because of an injury, but just because your hips -refused- to work? Ever smashed a $5k hospital monitor because you were so fucking frustrated about being helpless? That's a cause for depression, brother.

You're lucky to have good chemical balance in your brain, then. :p

But, to counter your examples... have you ever lain nearly immobile in your own bed for days (except for getting a drink of water and going to the bathroom), sleeping most of the time, not because you were sick, not because you were injured, but because, simply put, you had no energy, no motivation to do anything but sleep. And I don't mean the sort of "feeling lazy, I don't want to go for a jog" lack of motivation, but...
:headbang:

Actually, why am I trying to describe this to you? You obviously haven't. It's easier for people to imagine physical pain than it is to imagine the "lack of energy" born from clinical depression. :rolleyes:

No!

No! x 2 :D

I'm definitely a fan of the death penalty for successful suicides. :D

So do I :)
however, How do you make someone deader than dead?

Someone should call Philip K. Dick he might know how...

How do you make someone deader than dead?
Someone should call Philip K. Dick he might know how...

Hmm, yeah - death of personality, anyone? Remove all traces of the suicidee ever existing, only leaving him/her as a ghost in the minds (not having invented mind-eraser machines yet) of those that knew her/him. :D

can i ask a serious question, i wont make fun of you, are you guys goths, emos, or somebody who wants to die, no joke i wont say shit i got freinds like that.

Maybe we're all advanced-stage cancer patients. :rolleyes:

reanimating them?

That would be the most fitting punishment. If it were something to be punished for, of course.

People can certainly try to kill themselves if they wish just as we have a right to try and stop them. Allowing suicide without prevention will only lead to these (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/72/200px-Suicide_Booth.JPG).

And who wants that? ;)

Me. Sounds good.

Do people have the right to easy access to suicide?

Got into a brief debate about assisted suicide the other day and it got me thinking.

I held the viewpoint that, sure, everyone has a right to kill themselves, but that assisted suicide is not a right.

I personally recoil from such an idea as assisted suicide, but I also recoil from the idea of personal opinions dictating policy.

So I tried to find a couple of real reasons why assisted suicide isn't a good thing. A couple of the objections:
~It would make suicide easier, and thus, a path more often taken.
~It would somewhat diminish the chance for people to have second thoughts.
~It would be difficult to draw a line. How to regulate, in other words.
~How to treat minors, in particular.
~The negative effects it would have on the living, particularly the loved ones left behind, and the person who aids the suicide.

I see the logic behind the other side as well. So I'm open to persuasion. What do you all think?

It's your life, you should be able to do what you like with it. I personally would not want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, and quite frankly I probably wouldn't want to live without the use of my arms and legs - although that's easier said than done. Either way, as you said, it must be very carefully legislated to prevent abuse or killing people who didn't actually want to be killed. Short of including it in an official will, and ensuring that at least two doctors are consulted beforehand, I don't know how else to regulate it. I do think it should be allowed, though.

People can certainly try to kill themselves if they wish just as we have a right to try and stop them. Allowing suicide without prevention will only lead to these (http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/7/72/200px-Suicide_Booth.JPG).

And who wants that? ;)

I know! 25c is a ridiculous price!