NationStates Jolt Archive

The federal government has refused to act against illegal aliens. So, the people of the state of Oklahoma have decided to act and passed one of the toughest anti-illegal immigration laws in the country. Here is a copy of the bill in its entirety for those who care to read it. http://www.tulsaminutemanproject.org/uploads/HB_1804.pdf

The bill denies social services to illegal aliens, places large fines on employers who do not use a federal data base to verify the status of an alien, and does not allow drivers licenses or state ID cards to illegal aliens. It also provides for large fined for those who transport or harbor illegal aliens.

The law goes into affect in November which will give local law enforcement agencies adequate time to train their officers as the law also gives local law enforcement agencies the authority to stoop, question, and detain illegal immigrants.

By the way, this bill was passed by such a large majority of the state legislature that even if the governor put a veto on it the bill would have passed anyway. For those of you not familiar with the Oklahoma legislature, the State Senate is evenly split between Democrats and Republicans and the Republicans have a slight majority in the House.

The law goes into affect in November which will give local law enforcement agencies adequate time to train their officers as the law also gives local law enforcement agencies the authority to stoop, question, and detain illegal immigrants.
AKA, harass anyone who looks hispanic.

Oklahoma is the state that was a native-American reservation once, right?

Oklahoma is the state that was a native-American reservation once, right?

There's some irony in that Oklahoma is where we shoved all the Indians after we came in without invitation and overran them.

What's so bad about working to stop illegal immigration?

Hooray! Oklahoma is moving in the wrong direction!

still have a lot of Native Americans here.

I called everyone and their dog about this bill, did no good. You know I envision myself being thrown in jail for giving someone a ride to the hospital.....I mean how do I know if they are legal or not? sure isn't going to stop me from trying to keep them from dying.

Hooray! Oklahoma is moving in the wrong direction!

Would you prefer the US eliminate all immigration laws and throw the borders open to anyone who wants to enter or enforce the immigration laws we have now? If the federal government will not enforce the law, why shouldn't the states pass laws that allow state law enforcement officers the authority to enforce immigration laws?

So... how does one tell if they are dealing with an illegal alien? :rolleyes: You just go by skin colour or do they actually ask for ID and give the people a chance to prove they're there legally or what?

Ummm

This bill contracics the Hypacratic Oath that doctors take after graduating from Medical School. "Above All Else, Do No Harm." Anyone remember that? A doctor has a responsibility to help those in need reguardless of their ethnicity, cultural background, of if they are Citizens of this country or not.

Stopping/reducing illegal immigration is a good thing, but this seems to take things that extra step too far.

still have a lot of Native Americans here.

I called everyone and their dog about this bill, did no good. You know I envision myself being thrown in jail for giving someone a ride to the hospital.....I mean how do I know if they are legal or not? sure isn't going to stop me from trying to keep them from dying.

Smun, the law specifically allows people, doctors, and hospitals to provide medical aid. You need not worry about that.

Would you prefer the US eliminate all immigration laws and throw the borders open to anyone who wants to enter Yes.

Yes.

Should all countries eliminate immigration laws and allow anyone who wants to enter do so?

I would imagine they get a lot of migrant workers looking for jobs on farms and ranches. Nothing wrong with that as long as the workers become citizens or get work visas. How is an American worker going to compete with an illegal alien worker? The illegal isn't protected by OSHA or minimum wage laws. You can work him into the ground for pennies.

still have a lot of Native Americans here.

I called everyone and their dog about this bill, did no good. You know I envision myself being thrown in jail for giving someone a ride to the hospital.....I mean how do I know if they are legal or not? sure isn't going to stop me from trying to keep them from dying.

I believe the magic words are "...any alien knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that the alien has come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law, in furtherance of the illegal presence of the alien in the United States."

if it can be proven that you didn't know that the person you are giving/gave a ride to the hospital was an Illegal Immigrant, then you are safe.

Ummm

This bill contracics the Hypacratic Oath that doctors take after graduating from Medical School. "Above All Else, Do No Harm." Anyone remember that? A doctor has a responsibility to help those in need reguardless of their ethnicity, cultural background, of if they are Citizens of this country or not.

Don't jump to conclusions. Read the bill. It will not prosicute people for providing medical aid and doesn't require medical providers to report illegal immigrants. It is aimed at those who knowingly hire them, transport them, or harbor them.

I would imagine they get a lot of migrant workers looking for jobs on farms and ranches. Nothing wrong with that as long as the workers become citizens or get work visas. How is an American worker going to compete with an illegal alien worker? The illegal isn't protected by OSHA or minimum wage laws. You can work him into the ground for pennies.

Problem is it's practically impossible to become legal if you're hispanic. The US government allows only a very small number to immigrate legally.

Don't jump to conclusions. Read the bill. It will not prosicute people for providing medical aid and doesn't require medical providers to report illegal immigrants. It is aimed at those who knowingly hire them, transport them, or harbor them.

So now when you get on a public bus or a cab you have to provide valid ID? :rolleyes:

Should all countries eliminate immigration laws and allow anyone who wants to enter do so?Yes.

I would imagine they get a lot of migrant workers looking for jobs on farms and ranches. Nothing wrong with that as long as the workers become citizens or get work visas. How is an American worker going to compete with an illegal alien worker? The illegal isn't protected by OSHA or minimum wage laws. You can work him into the ground for pennies.If there was no concept of illegal immigration, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.

Problem is it's practically impossible to become legal if you're hispanic. The US government allows only a very small number to immigrate legally.

Yeah. There really should be a more liberal legal immigration policy. I wish those folks who rally in opposition to measures against illegal immigration would put their time, money, and energy into that instead. Both the immigrants and the US would be better off.

For assistance for health care items and services that are
necessary for the treatment of an emergency medical condition, as
defined in 42 U.S.C. Section 1396b(v)(3), of the alien involved and
are not related to an organ transplant procedure;

Read this. It means that if someone comes in with dire need for a sergical transplant, they cannot get it.

So... how does one tell if they are dealing with an illegal alien? :rolleyes: You just go by skin colour or do they actually ask for ID and give the people a chance to prove they're there legally or what?

Employers and social service providers can check the federal data base. If the business has registered and does check the data they will not be prosicuted if an employee turns out to be illegal. Police can ask anyone for identification even withot this law. Applicants for a drivers license or state ID will be asked to produce a birth certificate, naturalization papers, or other proof of citizenship.

Should all countries eliminate immigration laws and allow anyone who wants to enter do so?

yes how about the source of the problem gets dealt with instead of the symptoms for a change, in case you haven't noticed Canada and the US don't have this massive problem hmmmmm

all in all this is just retarded I can imagine:

*cop pulls over Hispanic man*

"can I see your passport and birth certificate"

"well I don't have those on me but I can get them from my house"

*Mexican terrorist is beaten to a pulp and sent to Gitmo*

Yes.

If there was no concept of illegal immigration, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.

Would you consider yourself a world federalist?...I haven't seen one in so long!...mabye the Unicorn is real...oh who am I kidding...*drinks self to death* :(

yes how about the source of the problem gets dealt with instead of the symptoms for a change, in case you haven't noticed Canada and the US don't have this massive problem hmmmmm

all in all this is just retarded I can imagine:

*cop pulls over Hispanic man*

"can I see your passport and birth certificate"

"well I don't have those on me but I can get them from my house"

*Mexican terrorist is beaten to a pulp and sent to Gitmo*

They'll be gentle :)

Yes.

If there was no concept of illegal immigration, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.

I don't think that could be workable in the real world. A nation should keep track of who's coming in for purposes of security, taxation, voting, and allocation of services to communities based on population. Without some process for screening and tracking immigrants that's kind of hard, maybe impossible.

Canada
How'd we get dragged into this mess?

How'd we get dragged into this mess?

a bit of bad luck...

They'll be gentle :)

furry cuffs?

How'd we get dragged into this mess?

because your border with Mexico is so secure :D

Would you consider yourself a world federalist?...I haven't seen one in so long!...mabye the Unicorn is real...oh who am I kidding...*drinks self to death* :(No, I'm an anarchist.

I don't think that could be workable in the real world. A nation should keep track of who's coming in for purposes of security, taxation, voting, and allocation of services to communities based on population. Without some process for screening and tracking immigrants that's kind of hard, maybe impossible.How about taking a census more often? That would handle everything except for security.

No, I'm an anarchist.

Does this mean there are no unicorns? :(

yes how about the source of the problem gets dealt with instead of the symptoms for a change, in case you haven't noticed Canada and the US don't have this massive problem hmmmmm

all in all this is just retarded I can imagine:

*cop pulls over Hispanic man*

"can I see your passport and birth certificate"

"well I don't have those on me but I can get them from my house"

*Mexican terrorist is beaten to a pulp and sent to Gitmo*

source?

Read this. It means that if someone comes in with dire need for a sergical transplant, they cannot get it.

I have never heard of an "emergency" transplant. It takes time to find and match organs.

source?

erm...for which part must I show?

No, I'm an anarchist.

How about taking a census more often? That would handle everything except for security.

I don't think taking a census more often would cover it. Assigning everyone a social security number and using it to track where they work and what they earn for tax purposes, public assistance, and voting works pretty well.

erm...for which part must I show?

the part where police officers are beating the crap out of Mexicans at random

I don't think taking a census more often would cover it. Assigning everyone a social security number and using it to track where they work and what they earn for tax purposes, public assistance, and voting works pretty well.Oh, that works, too. You could simply have places at the border to ID people and do this stuff. People should have social security cards anyway, for obvious reasons.

Oh, that works, too. You could simply have places at the border to ID people and do this stuff. People should have social security cards anyway, for obvious reasons.

Why should illegal aliens or Mexican citizens, or Candians have a Social Security Card?

Police can ask anyone for identification even withot this law.

But it encourages harassing hispanics.

the part where police officers are beating the crap out of Mexicans at random
This should be all the evidence one needs:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1641/badgeyj6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

the part where police officers are beating the crap out of Mexicans at random

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/288200.html

I have to ask what part of "I can imagine" followed by a satirical scenario is hard to understand?

Well it's nice to see Oklahoma's border with Mexico is better protected.

Oh ... wait ....

But it encourages harassing hispanics.

Police ask for an ID from everyone they stop or detain regardless of sex, color, religon, sexual orientation, etc. :rolleyes: They are equal opportunity ID askers.:eek:

Some things to know about illegal immigration:
1. Their first act upon entering the country illegally is to break the law, making every last illegal immigrant a criminal. You can try to argue for their right to a better life or anything else you want to but the fact remains that every illegal immigrant is a criminal.

2. There are legal ways to immigrate.

3. They took our jobs!

Police ask for an ID from everyone they stop

erm....WTF!!!!!!?

Police ask for an ID from everyone they stop or detain regardless of sex, color, religon, sexual orientation, etc. :rolleyes: They are equal opportunity ID askers.:eek:

Have you ever seen a police officer walk around asking people for ID? Fuck no. Now they will be encouraged to go around and harass all Hispanic people to see if they might be illegal. God help anyone not carrying ID on them when they go for a walk.

Have you ever seen a police officer walk around asking people for ID? Fuck no. Now they will be encouraged to go around and harass all Hispanic people to see if they might be illegal. God help anyone not carrying ID on them when they go for a walk.
I'm pretty white and I've been asked to produce my ID by the police before. They're equal opportunity offenders.

Why should illegal aliens or Mexican citizens, or Candians have a Social Security Card?We were talking about a situation where there was no such thing as illegal immigration. People who work here should be paying into social security.
Canadians and Mexicans should have their own social security systems, if they don't already.

Some things to know about illegal immigration:
1. Their first act upon entering the country illegally is to break the law, making every last illegal immigrant a criminal. You can try to argue for their right to a better life or anything else you want to but the fact remains that every illegal immigrant is a criminal.So? Some laws should be broken.

2. There are legal ways to immigrate.Time consuming ways, yes.

3. They took our jobs!Which is less likely to happen if employers can't get away with paying employees illegally low amounts.

Well it's nice to see Oklahoma's border with Mexico is better protected.

Oh ... wait ....

you would be surprised the major amount of illegals we have here. not as much as when I was in Tucson, but enough to really screw things up.

I'm pretty white and I've been asked to produce my ID by the police before. They're equal opportunity offenders.

and you could of told them to "kindly fuck off" unless your somewhere where there is an age limit you don't have to give them anything

unlike if you happen to be Hispanic now in which case your a criminal either way

you would be surprised the major amount of illegals we have here. not as much as when I was in Tucson, but enough to really screw things up.

Meh ... I have a hard time considering a person to be "illegal".

I believe in unconditional open borders.

But, then, I don't live in fear.

you would be surprised the major amount of illegals we have here. not as much as when I was in Tucson, but enough to really screw things up.

yeah dem Mexicans running around doing our jobs (not stealing) no doubt before they go out on a gang bang fest

Meh ... I have a hard time considering a person to be "illegal".

I believe in unconditional open borders.

But, then, I don't live in fear.

ever lived in a border state? ever had your only trauma center shut down because it didn't have enough money to continue due to illegals?

yeah dem Mexicans running around doing our jobs (not stealing) no doubt before they go out on a gang bang fest

whatever. You don't even have a clue as to the real issues.

Meh ... I have a hard time considering a person to be "illegal".

I would use the term "illegal alien" but it doesnt mean I consider the person to be illegal just their actions

Meh ... I have a hard time considering a person to be "illegal".

I believe in unconditional open borders.

But, then, I don't live in fear.

Well you have to keep track of people for taxes and allocation of public services and shit. Just make citizenship easier and give 'em a social security number. Helps make sure that their employers pay taxes, minimum wage, and adhere to OSHA regulations too.

ever lived in a border state? ever had your only trauma center shut down because it didn't have enough money to continue due to illegals?

Ermm ... I have lived nearly my entire life in Houston.

My grandfather is an "illegal alien" - but he's Irish, so nobody harrasses him.

Can't tell you the number of friends, lovers, and just generally terrific people I've known in my life who has parents or grandparents or cousins or whatever who are migrant workers or "illegals".

I can never consider it an illegal act to work to feed your family. I feel sorry for anyone who does consider it so.

ever lived in a border state? ever had your only trauma center shut down because it didn't have enough money to continue due to illegals?

yeah trauma centers with no money to treat people is the illegals fault as is the whole failure of the American health care system :rolleyes:

whatever. You don't even have a clue as to the real issues.

...I live in Northampton and have to deal with the crap about how illegal immigrant Kosovan's are going to eat are wimmenz and then got to laugh as the attention moved to Poles who apparently steal money, NHS benefits and yet at the same time take all the jobs

course your the real hardcore cus no doubt you've had a few years to blame everything on someone else

Ermm ... I have lived nearly my entire life in Houston.

My grandfather is an "illegal alien" - but he's Irish, so nobody harrasses him.

Can't tell you the number of friends, lovers, and just generally terrific people I've known in my life who has parents or grandparents or cousins or whatever who are migrant workers or "illegals".

I can never consider it an illegal act to work to feed your family. I feel sorry for anyone who does consider it so.

people who break the law are criminals, people who come to this country illegally are illegal immigrants. I don't see what's so freaking hard to understand about that. They may be nice people, they may have great families, they may be hard workers and never ever break another law....but they came here illegally and they did break that law, so no, I can't just ignore it when it affects my family, when it affects my kids. I am a selfish bitch that way.

Well you have to keep track of people for taxes and allocation of public services and shit. Just make citizenship easier and give 'em a social security number. Helps make sure that their employers pay taxes, minimum wage, and adhere to OSHA regulations too.

Oh, well sure ... important, that, and I agree ... make citizenship easier or work visas more readily available (I say hand 'em out like communion wafers) and all problems solved.

An act is only illegal so long as a piece of legislation makes it so. Of all the crazy things I've seen this country make illegal, human beings is by far the most insane.

people who break the law are criminals

:eek: I smoked pot once, thus I am a criminal!

people who come to this country illegally are illegal immigrants. I don't see what's so freaking hard to understand about that.

how about the part where they haven't done anything wrong

I can't just ignore it when it affects my family, when it affects my kids. I am a selfish bitch that way.

I'd like to know how this affects you and your family, what do your kids have to play with the brown children now or something?:rolleyes:

people who break the law are criminals

Ok, so Jesus was a criminal. Gotcha.

so no, I can't just ignore it when it affects my family, when it affects my kids. I am a selfish bitch that way.

How, specifically, has any amount of immigration - legal or otherwise - affected you or your kids? Have you lost your right to vote? Your right to freely travel? Your right to life?

What rights have you lost because Pedro can't wait a year to feed his kids legally, so he hops the fence and hopes for the best because he's a selfish bitch that way?

Ok, so Jesus was a criminal. Gotcha.



<snip>

You don't end up getting the death penalty for being a solid citizen.

We were talking about a situation where there was no such thing as illegal immigration. People who work here should be paying into social security.
Why? I work here, live here, was born here, and I don't want to pay into social security because the system will be bone dry by the time I'm old enough to retire.

Canadians and Mexicans should have their own social security systems, if they don't already.
First off, why? Is it too much to ask that folks save up some money for retirement?

And number B, whose responsibility is that? Shouldn't those governments and those people do it for themselves? Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

So? Some laws should be broken.
Agreed! Those pesky armed robbery, murder, theft, slavery, safety, and rape laws are a real pain and ought to be thrown out.

Laws exist in a society for a reason, to hold it together and keep things running smooth. As much as I may like the idea of the total freedom offered by anarchy, it makes things not be smooth.

Time consuming ways, yes.
That doesn't matter unless you're already a fugitive. The point is there are legal ways to go about these things and only those either too impatient, those eager, to leech, or those on the run would try to take shortcuts. There are none, there is no such thing as a free lunch, everything has a price.

Which is less likely to happen if employers can't get away with paying employees illegally low amounts.
That last one was a joke, I support outsourcing and a free market.

Look, I'd personally love the free and open North American Confederacy described in the Probability Broach; no borders, no papers, next to no government, and people can come and go as they please. But that's not how things are here and now. If that's what you want then you have to work through the proper, legal channels. Write to your reps, pass laws and strike old ones from the books. Do not just ignore a law, that's dangerous because if you can simply ignore one law it won't be long before another is too.

Well you have to keep track of people for taxes and allocation of public services and shit. Just make citizenship easier and give 'em a social security number. Helps make sure that their employers pay taxes, minimum wage, and adhere to OSHA regulations too.I could consider this an acceptable compromise.

Laws exist in a society for a reason, to hold it together and keep things running smooth. As much as I may like the idea of the total freedom offered by anarchy, it makes things not be smooth.

yeah the police hold the nation together and where all savages unable to control ourselves, oh help me supermen of the justice system for only you are smart enough to control us cattle :rolleyes:

Why? I work here, live here, was born here, and I don't want to pay into social security because the system will be bone dry by the time I'm old enough to retire.Which means merely that the system needs to be reformed.

First off, why? Is it too much to ask that folks save up some money for retirement?Yes, since not everybody has the ability to do so.

And number B, whose responsibility is that? Shouldn't those governments and those people do it for themselves? Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.I didn't say that the U.S. needed to set up Canada's social security system.

Agreed! Those pesky armed robbery, murder, theft, slavery, safety, and rape laws are a real pain and ought to be thrown out.Er...I said 'some laws' not 'all laws'.

Laws exist in a society for a reason, to hold it together and keep things running smooth. As much as I may like the idea of the total freedom offered by anarchy, it makes things not be smooth.And what of the laws that don't do this?

That doesn't matter unless you're already a fugitive. Or of a population that is being genocided, or starving to death, or in need of medical treatment that you can't get in your home country.

The point is there are legal ways to go about these things and only those either too impatient, those eager, to leech, or those on the run would try to take shortcuts. There are none, there is no such thing as a free lunch, everything has a price.Some prices are unnecessarily high, in this case the current legal immigration process.

I'd like to know how this affects you and your family, what do your kids have to play with the brown children now or something?:rolleyes:

yeah, you got it I am a racist, because I want ambulance service, and trauma centers, and all that stuff.

fuck you.

yeah, you got it I am a racist, because I want ambulance service, and trauma centers, and all that stuff.

no your misinformed because you believe immigrants are the reason these are failing

snip

edit it out, don't be silly

yeah, you got it I am a racist, because I want ambulance service, and trauma centers, and all that stuff.

You have all those things. Unfortunately, you have to share them.

They are not at your beck and call.

And you're what, PROUD?

Oklahoma? Wtf, who wants to live there?

The federal government has refused to act against illegal aliens. So, the people of the state of Oklahoma have decided to act and passed one of the toughest anti-illegal immigration laws in the country. Here is a copy of the bill in its entirety for those who care to read it. http://www.tulsaminutemanproject.org/uploads/HB_1804.pdf

The bill denies social services to illegal aliens, places large fines on employers who do not use a federal data base to verify the status of an alien, and does not allow drivers licenses or state ID cards to illegal aliens. It also provides for large fined for those who transport or harbor illegal aliens.

The law goes into affect in November which will give local law enforcement agencies adequate time to train their officers as the law also gives local law enforcement agencies the authority to stoop, question, and detain illegal immigrants.

By the way, this bill was passed by such a large majority of the state legislature that even if the governor put a veto on it the bill would have passed anyway. For those of you not familiar with the Oklahoma legislature, the State Senate is evenly split between Democrats and Republicans and the Republicans have a slight majority in the House.

HORRAH FOR OKLAHOMA!!!

Oklahoma? Wtf, who wants to live there?

It seems Mexicans do.

What's so bad about working to stop illegal immigration?

Absolutely not a damn thing is wrong with stopping illegal immigration. To bad this won't pass on the federal level. :(

It seems Mexicans do.

Mexico must really be a shit hole for them to be willing to settle for Oklahoma.

It seems Mexicans do.

I laughed about a second after I read this. It took a moment to sink in. You win this thread.

Some things to know about illegal immigration:
1. Their first act upon entering the country illegally is to break the law, making every last illegal immigrant a criminal. You can try to argue for their right to a better life or anything else you want to but the fact remains that every illegal immigrant is a criminal.

Anne Frank was a criminal too. So was Rosa Parks. And of course, all the founding fathers of the United States of America. They were, every single one of them, not just criminals but traitors. Now maybe you can pretend that law translates to morality, maybe you can lie to yourself, but I don't buy it.

2. There are legal ways to immigrate.

Unless you're poor.

3. They took our jobs!

You don't own a job, even the one you work at. No one can take from you what isn't yours. And let's face it, "our" jobs is just collective-ownership based on nationality nonsense.

Anne Frank was a criminal too. So was Rosa Parks. And of course, all the founding fathers of the United States of America. They were, every single one of them, not just criminals but traitors. Now maybe you can pretend that law translates to morality, maybe you can lie to yourself, but I don't buy it.

Rosa Parks was a traitor as well as Anne Franke? Holy shit. WHere the hell did you come up with that one?

Mexico must really be a shit hole for them to be willing to settle for Oklahoma.

You haven't been to America, have you Fass?

I'm not saying Oklahoma is the best thing to happen to geography since continental plates, but still...

Good I hope all illegal immigrants die.

Rosa Parks was a traitor as well as Anne Franke? Holy shit. WHere the hell did you come up with that one?

I think I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are only pretending to be stupid.

You haven't been to America, have you Fass?

Actually, I've been to both America and the USA.

I'm not saying Oklahoma is the best thing to happen to geography since continental plates, but still...

Oh, it isn't just the geography. If only it were just that.

Good I hope all illegal immigrants die.

You should include more Vitamin C into your diet

I think I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are only pretending to be stupid.

How was Ann Franke a traitor? What did she do to be one? All she was was a Jew. That is it.

And how is Rosa Parks a traitor for standing up for the rights of African-Americans by not giving up her seat on the bus?

You call me stupid for questioning you? Look at history! If I am stupid then that makes you a dumbass which is below stupid.

Good I hope all illegal immigrants die.

Fortunately they won't. And fortunately they breed faster than you do! So, stick that in your pipe. :)

Actually, I've been to both America and the USA.

Have you been to Oklahoma?

You have all those things. Unfortunately, you have to share them.

They are not at your beck and call.

We do need to take care of our own before taking care of others. There's only so much money to go around.

It's like when Hilary wanted to make undocumented immigrants eligible for Social Security. Why on earth would we do that when the elderly citizens of this country are eating cat food?

Good I hope all illegal immigrants die.

Oooh! Aren't you charming.

Mexico must really be a shit hole for them to be willing to settle for Oklahoma.
It is. It really fucking is.

Have you been to Oklahoma?

Have you been to Kandahar? Some places you don't need to be to know what they're like.

/Flew through Will Rogers on my way to Denver (I think it was), though, and feared for my life.

How was Ann Franke a traitor? What did she do to be one? All she was was a Jew. That is it.

And how is Rosa Parks a traitor for standing up for the rights of African-Americans by not giving up her seat on the bus?

You call me stupid for questioning you? Look at history! If I am stupid then that makes you a dumbass which is below stupid.

He didn't say they were traitors. He said the founding fathers were traitors, which they were.

He didn't say they were traitors. He said the founding fathers were traitors, which they were.

If that were true then he needs to make himself more clear on just who he really is calling a traitor. That is if what you are saying is true that is.

There is technically nothing wrong with this since they are illegal immigrants. If you wan't them to be treated like citizens, make them citizens. You can't complain about people trying to get rid of illegal immigrants if it's illegal for them to be in the area. You should be complaining about illegal immigration laws if you feel they should be there.

If that were true then he needs to make himself more clear on just who he really is calling a traitor. That is if what you are saying is true that is.

um...I understood that and my English skillz are borderline illiterate, I suggest you work on reading comprehension

If that were true then he needs to make himself more clear on just who he really is calling a traitor. That is if what you are saying is true that is.

It's only unclear if you have no grasp of grammar.

It is. It really fucking is.

Depends what part of course! Some of it is great.

It's only unclear if you have no grasp of grammar.

:rolleyes: I have a grasp of grammer. I better as I graduated from College with two degrees and one had to deal with grammer on a daily basis (and no it was not English). The statement could have applied to all the people he mentioned.

one had to deal with grammer on a daily basis (and no it was not English)

theres ya' problem :p

:rolleyes: I have a grasp of grammer. I better as I graduated from College with two degrees and one had to deal with grammer on a daily basis (and no it was not English). The statement could have applied to all the people he mentioned.

No, no the statement could not have. This is almost as amusing as when you claimed to understand law.

:rolleyes: I have a grasp of grammer. I better as I graduated from College with two degrees and one had to deal with grammer on a daily basis (and no it was not English). The statement could have applied to all the people he mentioned.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/517/2490Frasier_Kelsey_Grammer.jpg

You get a Grammer F!

:rolleyes: I have a grasp of grammer. I better as I graduated from College with two degrees and one had to deal with grammer on a daily basis (and no it was not English). The statement could have applied to all the people he mentioned.just.. what is “grammer” ???

damn Fass :D

damn Fass :D

You gotta get faster. Them Swedes are right quick buggers. :D

You gotta get faster. Them Swedes are right quick buggers. :D

He was even able to insert a picture in time for Gods sake!

You gotta get faster. Them Swedes are right quick buggers. :D

There's a joke here, but it's really stupid so I'm not going to bother.

There's a joke here, but it's really stupid so I'm not going to bother.

Does it have anything to do with border hopping? Because I doubt Fass'll be trying to swim the pond to America any time soon :D

You get a Grammer F!
just.. what is “grammer” ???

Isn't grammar different from spelling? :p

Does it have anything to do with border hopping? Because I doubt Fass'll be trying to swim the pond to America any time soon :D

It is a play on words that references what you said and a sex act commonly associated in many people's minds with the sexuality that Fass possesses.

Isn't grammar different from spelling? :p

Nope, as phonology, phonetics and orthography are closely linked in a language with a strong written tradition, as most European languages are.

He was even able to insert a picture in time for Gods sake!Damn Fass Damn Fast :D

You gotta get faster. Them Swedes are right quick buggers. :D

They take their time in the ways that matter.

How did all this Joking about Swedish speed started??

oh yeah.. the Grammer thing. :D

Where is the Grammer king? Where is Corneliu??

How did all this Joking about Swedish speed started??

oh yeah.. the Grammer thing. :D

Where is the Grammer king? Where is Corneliu??

covering his ass...

after all, as they say, them sweds are fast! :D :D :D

covering his ass...

after all, as they say, them sweds are fast! :D :D :DWUAHAHAHAHA. :D :D :eek: :D

wait.. wouldnt that be "healing his ass" ? ;)
at least that is what my score card says ^^

WUAHAHAHAHA. :D :D :eek: :D

wait.. wouldnt that be "healing his ass" ? ;)
at least that is what my score card says ^^

*wonders why Fass isn't responding either, figures he fell out of his chair laughing*

*wonders why Fass isn't responding either, figures he fell out of his chair laughing*

I was not going to dignify your homophobic comments, implying that gay sex would be something demeaning and injurious, with a response. Shame on both of you.

I was not going to dignify your homophobic comments, implying that gay sex would be something demeaning and injurious, with a response. Shame on both of you.

I never implied anything about the harmful qualities of gay sex.

In fact, that was sort of a tangent from my comment...which was sort of a tangent from our commentary on Corny's poor use of grammar, which was sort of a tangent on the overall topic of the thread...

We do need to take care of our own before taking care of others. There's only so much money to go around.

It's like when Hilary wanted to make undocumented immigrants eligible for Social Security. Why on earth would we do that when the elderly citizens of this country are eating cat food?

Elderly citizens in the US aren't eating cat food because there's not enough money in Social Security. They're doing it because they're getting fucked by Medicare and prescription drug prices, among other things. Social Security is solvent, even if our economy grows at a below average rate, for the next 41 years. If it simply keeps up the average, make it 70.

The federal government has refused to act against illegal aliens. So, the people of the state of Oklahoma have decided to act and passed one of the toughest anti-illegal immigration laws in the country. Here is a copy of the bill in its entirety for those who care to read it. http://www.tulsaminutemanproject.org/uploads/HB_1804.pdf

The bill denies social services to illegal aliens, places large fines on employers who do not use a federal data base to verify the status of an alien, and does not allow drivers licenses or state ID cards to illegal aliens. It also provides for large fined for those who transport or harbor illegal aliens.

The law goes into affect in November which will give local law enforcement agencies adequate time to train their officers as the law also gives local law enforcement agencies the authority to stoop, question, and detain illegal immigrants.

By the way, this bill was passed by such a large majority of the state legislature that even if the governor put a veto on it the bill would have passed anyway. For those of you not familiar with the Oklahoma legislature, the State Senate is evenly split between Democrats and Republicans and the Republicans have a slight majority in the House.

All the more reason to love Oklahoma!!!

I was not going to dignify your homophobic comments, implying that gay sex would be something demeaning and injurious, with a response. Shame on both of you.I do not consider myself homophobic.. or antisemite.. or a commie.. or a nazi.. or an islamist.. all the silly things they accuse me of.. on daily basis.

..and nothing i've seen posted in this thread from DeusMalum, or Junii, or anyone could make me think they are homophobic.
In fact we appreciate you around here.

BTW.. just like DeusMalum I honestly figured.. "Fass fell out of his chair laughing"
We overestimated your sense of humor.

my mistake.

I was not going to dignify your homophobic comments, implying that gay sex would be something demeaning and injurious, with a response. Shame on both of you.

Apologies from me to Fass, my statement was meant in jest. if it did offend you, I humbly apologize.

The federal government has refused to act against illegal aliens. So, the people of the state of Oklahoma have decided to act and passed one of the toughest anti-illegal immigration laws in the country. Here is a copy of the bill in its entirety for those who care to read it. http://www.tulsaminutemanproject.org/uploads/HB_1804.pdf

The bill denies social services to illegal aliens, places large fines on employers who do not use a federal data base to verify the status of an alien, and does not allow drivers licenses or state ID cards to illegal aliens. It also provides for large fined for those who transport or harbor illegal aliens.

The law goes into affect in November which will give local law enforcement agencies adequate time to train their officers as the law also gives local law enforcement agencies the authority to stoop, question, and detain illegal immigrants.

By the way, this bill was passed by such a large majority of the state legislature that even if the governor put a veto on it the bill would have passed anyway. For those of you not familiar with the Oklahoma legislature, the State Senate is evenly split between Democrats and Republicans and the Republicans have a slight majority in the House.



BRAVO!!! Maybe now we can get that nationwide! Good show!

furry cuffs?

Yea why not? It's Legal..and kinky!

Yea why not? It's Legal..and kinky!

lets take em off when they go to jail though :D

All the more reason to love Oklahoma!!!Because it sets a bad example for the rest of the country?

Because it sets a bad example for the rest of the country?

Yeah, god forbid we uphold the law. Anarchy really is such a lovely way to live, full of fluffy bunnies and candy that grows on trees.

Yeah, god forbid we uphold the law. Anarchy really is such a lovely way to live, full of fluffy bunnies and candy that grows on trees.

Violation of one law does not anarchy make.

I love Oklahoma, I shall now move there! :D

Violation of one law does not anarchy make.

True, that was just a late-night rant against anarchism that snuck in there. But the fact of the matter is there are good reasons there are immigration laws, and it's time they were enforced better.

True, that was just a late-night rant against anarchism that snuck in there. But the fact of the matter is there are good reasons there are immigration laws, and it's time they were enforced better.

In the case of the US, immigration laws are surrounded by bureacracy, and immigration is prohibitively expensive and time-consuming (particularly from the perspective of migrant workers - if they could afford the time and money, they wouldn't be coming to the US looking for work to begin with!). Those laws need to be reformed to make immigration easier to do legally. As it is, people are choosing to wander through the desert, risking death by exposure and a life of persecution and pariahood instead of going through the legal process. That doesn't reflect upon their character, it reflects (very poorly) upon that legal process.

Great... another law that gets it all wrong! The US is a land built upon illegal immigration. Did anyone ask the people who lived here for thousands of years if they liked the 13 colonies? Hell no! The settlers shot them in the face and buried them in unmarked graves or something.
Now since the "illegals" are actually working their asses off instead of shooting the descendants of immigrants in the face, I figure the US should be kind and not hunt them down and toss them back from whence they came.

Immigration laws need to be changed, so that is is simple, easy, and cheap to become a citizen. That is what will solve the problem! Cracking down on "illegals" will not fix anything. It is like trying to fill up a bucket with a hole in it. The United States should allow anyone with a clean record (not crazy terrorists, thieves, murders, etc.) into the country as citizens to build a new life. They can be documented and entered into the system that way. Then they can pay taxes and be protected by the law rather than be enemies of it. If employers have to treat immigrants fairly, then the appeal of hiring them (sine they can pay below min. wage) disappears. Plus we won't be wasting money hunting people (who will just be replaced by others anyway) and instead can pour it into healthcare and education.

The United States is a land of immigrants... why is it a crime to want a better life here?

In the case of the US, immigration laws are surrounded by bureacracy, and immigration is prohibitively expensive and time-consuming (particularly from the perspective of migrant workers - if they could afford the time and money, they wouldn't be coming to the US looking for work to begin with!). Those laws need to be reformed to make immigration easier to do legally. As it is, people are choosing to wander through the desert, risking death by exposure and a life of persecution and pariahood instead of going through the legal process. That doesn't reflect upon their character, it reflects (very poorly) upon that legal process.

Yes, the current system could do with reform, but there is still the delicate balance of easing the burden on immigrants vs. looking out for the welfare of the citizens. Better enforcement - i.e. going after those who hire illegals - would help with the influx and allow time to get at the source of the problem.

I don't think that could be workable in the real world. A nation should keep track of who's coming in for purposes of security, taxation, voting, and allocation of services to communities based on population. Without some process for screening and tracking immigrants that's kind of hard, maybe impossible.

though that would be trivially easy with open borders - who the fuck would run across the desert when you can just walk through a ridiculously easy checkpoint? as for voting and whatnot, the various states don't seem to have too big of a problem figuring out who counts and who doesn't, and they have no border controls at all.

I believe the magic words are "...any alien knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that the alien has come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law, in furtherance of the illegal presence of the alien in the United States."

if it can be proven that you didn't know that the person you are giving/gave a ride to the hospital was an Illegal Immigrant, then you are safe.

I hope that you're safe even if it can't be proved, but rather are liable if it can be proved that you DO know...

Yes, the current system could do with reform, but there is still the delicate balance of easing the burden on immigrants vs. looking out for the welfare of the citizens.

there is no contradiction between the two. immigration is a good thing for the welfare of those that already live here.

Yes, the current system could do with reform, but there is still the delicate balance of easing the burden on immigrants vs. looking out for the welfare of the citizens. Better enforcement - i.e. going after those who hire illegals - would help with the influx and allow time to get at the source of the problem.

Yeah, but too many people see this as the Final Solution to the illegal immigration problem. Just some "let's get tough on crime" propaganda and then the people who are most worried about this feel safer - they won't then feel compelled to make immigration easier. It's a band-aid solution. The real problem is not lack of enforcement, the problem is that there is a huge demand for immigration and an artificially induced low supply for achieving it legally (I'm pretty sure this was intentional, that the bureacratic process is meant to act as an "import quota" for immigration). Hence illegal immigration. It's the same with prohibition and drugs - getting tougher on drug users, or even dealers, won't address the fact that there IS a massive demand, and so there WILL be a supply to meet it.

(I'm pretty sure this was intentional, that the bureacratic process is meant to act as an "import quota" for immigration).
As it was originally called a quota, I'm guessing that it is in fact intentional.

there is no contradiction between the two. immigration is a good thing for the welfare of those that already live here.

Even when those immigrating include drug dealers, murderers and theives? Or when cheap labor floods the marketplace and drives wages down?

As it was originally called a quota, I'm guessing that it is in fact intentional.

I didn't know that it actually was called that... just seemed like the right word from what I know of economics. I feel smart now!

Even when those immigrating include drug dealers, murderers and theives? Or when cheap labor floods the marketplace and drives wages down?

immigrants in usia (with and without papers) are disproportionately unlikely to be drug-dealers, murderers, and thieves. and as far as we can determine in the noise that is economics, immigration causes wage increases. essentially if you want a safe, dynamic, and prosperous place, get yourself a vibrant immigrant community.

immigrants in usia (with and without papers) are disproportionately unlikely to be drug-dealers, murderers, and thieves. and as far as we can determine in the noise that is economics, immigration causes wage increases. essentially if you want a safe, dynamic, and prosperous place, get yourself a vibrant immigrant community.

Not to mention that the majority of illegals don't sneak over the border, no matter what Tom Tancredo claims. They come in legally on work visas and overstay. They're here working and adding not only to the economy, but to the tax base as well. But no one wants to hear that--it's too easy to cast them all as dirty beaners who are here to steal and rape and deal.

Oklahoma is the state that was a native-American reservation once, right?

Hmm.... So does this mean that only "Native Americans" now have services, since everyone else illegally immigrated to North America.

I'm pretty sure that "The Toughest Anti-illegal Immigration Law" parses null. I'm also pretty sure there aren't many people who actually want to be in Oklahoma anyway.

Some things to know about illegal immigration:
1. Their first act upon entering the country illegally is to break the law, making every last illegal immigrant a criminal. You can try to argue for their right to a better life or anything else you want to but the fact remains that every illegal immigrant is a criminal.

2. There are legal ways to immigrate.

3. They took our jobs!

1) I'm sure most of us have driven 50 in a 45 speed zones once before so, technically, were criminals too

2) Yeah, legal immigration, = wade through a bureaucratic quagmire for 15 years while your application gets lost 3 times and immigration officials fish for bribes. - I am a (legal) immigrant -

3) Find me a legal American citizen willing to do the kind of work the illegal do, at the wages they earn.

However much we dislike it, and with all of the problems involved, we need the illegals, ex. in the produce industry in California, in the construction industry in Arizona.
We, as a society (at least in the southwest) are so used to cheap and plentiful labor it is almost impossible for us to enforce our immigration laws.

Even when those immigrating include drug dealers, murderers and theives?

Are there no native-born American murderers, thieves, or drug dealers?
The overwhelming majority of Mexican immigrants I know are decent, hardworking, and law-abiding. Yes, certainly, there are criminals in the Mexican population, but there are criminals in every race and nationality.
Would being robbed by a native-born American make you feel better than being robbed by a Mexican?

Personally, I think we should fund most government programs with consumption taxes. That way, it doesn't matter whether you're illegal or not because you'll be paying for those services every time you buy something. Ideally, of course, the goal would be to make citizenship as easy as humanly possible to attain, but this would address many of the problems while still retaining the economic benefits that immigrants, both legal and illegal, provide.

http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ruinkai/biggrinbandit.gif

The bill denies social services to illegal aliens, places large fines on employers who do not use a federal data base to verify the status of an alien, and does not allow drivers licenses or state ID cards to illegal aliens. It also provides for large fined for those who transport or harbor illegal aliens.

My understanding is that the 'transport' mentioned here means transporting them over the border. Other than that, I see nothing wrong with these definitions (admittedly I'm not American but European): if people wish to become citizens of another country's society (and thus be enabled to have all the benefits as well), they should do so legally. Sorry to those coming from crappy backgrounds and such (just saw a program of that in TV yesterday), but immigrate LEGALLY - it's preferable by all.

So... how does one tell if they are dealing with an illegal alien?

Well, if you're a business owner, you'll check with the federal files (or whatever it was). Same with if you're giving legal permits. If you're just a private citizen dealing with individual people in situations not requiring legal contracts, I think you can safely ignore this law. As long as you're a legal citizen yourself. :p

how about the part where they haven't done anything wrong

They've broken the law by entering the country illegally, avoiding all the "hassle" of becoming citizens. Why should they get the same benefits if they don't want to conform to the society to begin with?

Ok, so Jesus was a criminal. Gotcha.

Yes, he was. Read the Bible closer if you want to reference its contents. :p

1) I'm sure most of us have driven 50 in a 45 speed zones once before so, technically, were criminals too

Strawman agrument. The punishment for speeding is a ticket. Go fast enough and you may loose your license and/or get a hefty fine with jail time. The punishment for entering the country illegally is deportation and whatever else the book says. You compare apples to oranges.

2) Yeah, legal immigration, = wade through a bureaucratic quagmire for 15 years while your application gets lost 3 times and immigration officials fish for bribes. - I am a (legal) immigrant -

That's the law. No one ever said life was fair. That's also a gross misrepresentation.

3) Find me a legal American citizen willing to do the kind of work the illegal do, at the wages they earn.

I'm sure I can find you plenty who would be happy for any job.

However much we dislike it, and with all of the problems involved, we need the illegals, ex. in the produce industry in California, in the construction industry in Arizona.
We, as a society (at least in the southwest) are so used to cheap and plentiful labor it is almost impossible for us to enforce our immigration laws.

Propaganda, nothing more than that. The produce sector, with subsidies from the government, could help farmers get mechinized which will help prices stay the same, or if it makes it easy enough, lower them. These subsidies would come from all the money freed up by deportation of 12+ million illegals. Getting rid of tough labor laws and minimum wage would free up the market and lower cost. Of course doing those two alone won't help much. You would need a lot more economic reform than just that, but it's a start.

As for immigration on a whole, forgive me for loving my country enough and realizing that we can't continue to "import" the problems of the 3rd world and expect our standard of living to remain as it is. I have no qualms with immigration, but I think we allow way to many people into America, and because of that our infrastructure can't keep up. We also let in the wrong kind of people. When my grandfather came to America from Italy he wanted to be an American. He even fought in WWII to give something back to this country and gain his citizenship. He adopted an American lifestlye, accepted it's culture and learned English. Now we let people in who still hold allegiance to their home countries, who want to take full advantage of what America has to offer, while refusing to assimilate and refusing to become American. Not all immigrants are like that, but a lot more today are than before.

Dispite your opinion on immigration, this is a good watch, and it's only 10 minutes long: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ez3GmDgknk

The bill denies social services to illegal aliens, places large fines on employers who do not use a federal data base to verify the status of an alien, and does not allow drivers licenses or state ID cards to illegal aliens. It also provides for large fined for those who transport or harbor illegal aliens.


Is this a harsh law? Doesn't look ultra-tough to me.
Except about social services: some social services (like healthcare) should be granted to any human imho.
Anyway, fines aren't enough. Those who employ illegal aliens (by the way, if you employ an illegal alien, you're evading the taxes, aren't you?), or are accomplices of illegal immigration (transportin or harbouring them) should go to jail.

Great... another law that gets it all wrong! The US is a land built upon illegal immigration. Did anyone ask the people who lived here for thousands of years if they liked the 13 colonies?

The United States is a land of immigrants... why is it a crime to want a better life here?

The Native American tribes did not have immigration policies in place so no, the US settlers were not illegal immigrants. You even slip up in your last sentence; admiting that it was a land of immigrants, not illegal immigrants.


Yeah, legal immigration, = wade through a bureaucratic quagmire for 15 years while your application gets lost 3 times and immigration officials fish for bribes. - I am a (legal) immigrant

I can confirm this too. It may be a bit exaggerated, but not by much. I have a friend who has been waiting 11 years. Even if you marry an American and then apply, expect to wait a couple years before you are allowed to legaly enter the US.

I can confirm this too. It may be a bit exaggerated, but not by much. I have a friend who has been waiting 11 years. Even if you marry an American and then apply, expect to wait a couple years before you are allowed to legaly enter the US.

Because of the lengthy iter legal immigrants have to go through, I don't find just to allow illegal shortcuts.
Plus, an illegal immigrant is unable to have his human rights acknowledged, or to seek protection from the police: hence, he is most likely to be exploited by criminal organisations and tax-evading enterpreneurs.

If there was no concept of illegal immigration, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.
Let's see how well this logic holds up.


If there was no concept of murder, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.


If there was no concept of rape, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.


If there was no concept of theft, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.


If there was no concept of slavery, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.


If there was no concept of kidnapping, then we wouldn't need to worry about this.




Fail.

Let's see how well this logic holds up.

Fail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

Let's see how well this logic holds up.

Fail.Er...the post I was replying to said:

"I would imagine they get a lot of migrant workers looking for jobs on farms and ranches. Nothing wrong with that as long as the workers become citizens or get work visas. How is an American worker going to compete with an illegal alien worker? The illegal isn't protected by OSHA or minimum wage laws. You can work him into the ground for pennies."

The fact that immigration is illegal makes it so that when an employer hires an employee for pennies, the employee can't report the employer for violation of labor law because the employee would get in trouble with authorities. If there were no authorities to deport the worker, the worker could report the employer.
In other words, illegal immigration laws themselves encourage the breaking of other laws. Please explain to me how laws against murder, rape, et al., make it so labor infractions can't be reported.

The bill denies social services to illegal aliens, places large fines on employers who do not use a federal data base to verify the status of an alien, and does not allow drivers licenses or state ID cards to illegal aliens. It also provides for large fined for those who transport or harbor illegal aliens.

If you read carefully, the bill only denies social services to those over 14 years old. Therefore children can still receive benefits, as can pregnant mothers, incidentally.

This is odd. Why would you allow a woman to come to Oklahoma iliegally, then provide her with neonatal care, then provide state benfits for the child for fourteen years, and then after they have built an entire life here, and the kid is just old enough to become a manual labourer, you cut them off from any state benefits?

Could it be because this provides a steady source of fairly healthy illegals who now have even less options, and so have that much more incentive to agree with anything the boss says?

The law goes into affect in November which will give local law enforcement agencies adequate time to train their officers as the law also gives local law enforcement agencies the authority to stoop, question, and detain illegal immigrants.

Again, if you read the bill carefully, it does not say anywhere that police can randomly stop people and demand verification of legal status. Only if they have been caught commiting a felony or driving under the influence.

No, I'm an anarchist.

How about taking a census more often? That would handle everything except for security.

nine out of ten times someone who describes them self as an anarchist is a high school through early college aged person trying to be "cool"

and that is why the anarchist opinion doesnt carry much weight

Not to mention that the majority of illegals don't sneak over the border, no matter what Tom Tancredo claims. They come in legally on work visas and overstay. They're here working and adding not only to the economy, but to the tax base as well. But no one wants to hear that--it's too easy to cast them all as dirty beaners who are here to steal and rape and deal.

hey man, facts are dangerous controlled substances. stop spreading them around like candy, you pusher.

nine out of ten times someone who describes them self as an anarchist is a high school through early college aged person trying to be "cool"

and that is why the anarchist opinion doesnt carry much weight

though on this here forum it turns out that a massive percentage of the people rated by others as the best debaters and the smartest, (and hell, even the sexiest) are anarchists. i think we also rank well in the most humorous category. so somebody has a bit of a sampling error.

I forgot to add tha this bill does not penalise people who hire illegal aliens, nor does it force businesses to check some sort of list. Unless they work for the government directly or as a contractor. This means that the agriculutaral industry and a lot of the small scale construction industry will be unaffected by htese new laws. Aren't they two of the largest employers of illegals?

This bill seems to penalise the immigrants more than the companies hiring them.

They've broken the law by entering the country illegally, avoiding all the "hassle" of becoming citizens.
I'm guessing you think it's easy to become a citizen. It's not. For one, there's a quota that only allows a handful of immigrants from Mexico to come in each year. If they want to become citizens, guess what. They are barred from doing so. The only reason they immigrate illegally is that doing so is the only damn way for them to get into the country.

I forgot to add tha this bill does not penalise people who hire illegal aliens, nor does it force businesses to check some sort of list. Unless they work for the government directly or as a contractor. This means that the agriculutaral industry and a lot of the small scale construction industry will be unaffected by htese new laws. Aren't they two of the largest employers of illegals?

This bill seems to penalise the immigrants more than the companies hiring them.

funny how that works out, no?

I'm guessing you think it's easy to become a citizen. It's not. For one, there's a quota that only allows a handful of immigrants from Mexico to come in each year. If they want to become citizens, guess what. They are barred from doing so. The only reason they immigrate illegally is that doing so is the only damn way for them to get into the country.

Not to mention that slightly more than half of them enter the country legally to work. They simply overstay their visas. It's an important point to make, because otherwise it sounds like the US has tens of millions of people a year crossing the border and it's just not happening that way.

I almost never like anybody who makes it their cause to prevent illegal immigration. I find it very hard to care about and find that the people who do care about it, are for the most part against several beliefs that I do care about.

I forgot what my point was. Eh. Well. I don't care.

Guess what they can do then? Stay in their own damn country. We have the quotas because we /don't/ want tons of people from Mexico here. It's /our/ country, not /their/ country, and whine all you want, but a lot Americans would actually like to KEEP THEM OUT.

Guess what they can do then? Stay in their own damn country. We have the quotas because we /don't/ want tons of people from Mexico here. It's /our/ country, not /their/ country, and whine all you want, but a lot Americans would actually like to KEEP THEM OUT.

Yeah! If there is one thing that America has never relied upon, it is an immigrant workforce!

Guess what they can do then? Stay in their own damn country. We have the quotas because we /don't/ want tons of people from Mexico here. It's /our/ country, not /their/ country, and whine all you want, but a lot Americans would actually like to KEEP THEM OUT.

Right - thank you for showing that the problem you have is not with legality or law or economics. You just don't want them Mexicans around.

I'm not gonna whine, I'm just gonna laugh at your pure white ass and how obviously afraid you are of people with dark skin and who speak a language you are too dull to understand. Maybe a lot of Americans are as bigoted and insecure as you, but I'm not. I have balls.

nine out of ten times someone who describes them self as an anarchist is a high school through early college aged person trying to be "cool"

and that is why the anarchist opinion doesnt carry much weightWhat of the other 10% of anarchists?

though on this here forum it turns out that a massive percentage of the people rated by others as the best debaters and the smartest, (and hell, even the sexiest) are anarchists. i think we also rank well in the most humorous category. so somebody has a bit of a sampling error.

congratulations. a forum where humorous debates and nonsense take place you are king/queen.

Guess what they can do then? Stay in their own damn country. We have the quotas because we /don't/ want tons of people from Mexico here. It's /our/ country, not /their/ country, and whine all you want, but a lot Americans would actually like to KEEP THEM OUT.

The right to do something does not mean necessarily right to do

Are there no native-born American murderers, thieves, or drug dealers?

Nice way of putting words in my mouth; or are you claiming everyone immigrating into a country are all saints?

As I said, immigration laws are there to keep the bad people out, and to keep too many people from coming in, because yes you can have too much of a good thing.

Nice way of putting words in my mouth; or are you claiming everyone immigrating into a country are all saints?

no, but if we kicked out all of the people born here and just had foreign-born people, the crime rate would drop astronomically.

There's some irony in that Oklahoma is where we shoved all the Indians after we came in without invitation and overran them.

By right of conquest, certainly.

By the way, this bill was passed by such a large majority of the state legislature that even if the governor put a veto on it the bill would have passed anyway. For those of you not familiar with the Oklahoma legislature, the State Senate is evenly split between Democrats and Republicans and the Republicans have a slight majority in the House.


Ahuh sure "split" yeah right maybe when (insert classic motto such as when pigs fly or when hell freezes over).

no, but if we kicked out all of the people born here and just had foreign-born people, the crime rate would drop astronomically.

So you say. And yet, it is purely conjecture--you have no way of knowing anymore than you can implement what you suggest

Ahuh sure "split" yeah right maybe when (insert classic motto such as when pigs fly or when hell freezes over).

Actually, he's right. And the governor is a Democrat as well. He's conservative, to be sure, but still a Democrat.

So you say. And yet, it is purely conjecture--you have no way of knowing anymore than you can implement what you suggest

conjecture, sure. but it is an extrapolation based off all the available evidence. the foreign-born and their children are vastly underrepresented in the criminal justice system. it take until the third generation to get them accultured enough to engage in the native level of crime.

I'm guessing you think it's easy to become a citizen. It's not.

And yet everywhere on the Net I see the "Want to own a green card? Join the lottery!" advertizements. After you've got permit for living in a country and getting benefits as a legal alien, you pretty much have it all set as long as you don't turn into a criminal (and risk deportation), what do you need the citizenship for, anyway? (Rhetorical question, I know what you need it for, don't answer for me.)

For one, there's a quota that only allows a handful of immigrants from Mexico to come in each year.

Gee, I wonder why? Would it maybe have anything to do with the huge number of illegal immigrants flooding into the country through every crack they can find?

The only reason they immigrate illegally is that doing so is the only damn way for them to get into the country.

So why do they want to live in the States (or, in the wider scale, any other country than their country of origin)? They say they want to contribute to the society and help the country to be great... try doing that in their own country? Of course it'll be hard, sometimes even impossible, but they certainly aren't helping their country of origin by trying to leave it behind by breaking the law.

no, but if we kicked out all of the people born here and just had foreign-born people, the crime rate would drop astronomically.
So if we got rid of most of the population, crime would go down? Dear God, you're a genius! :rolleyes:

So if we got rid of most of the population, crime would go down? Dear God, you're a genius! :rolleyes:

you may wish to look up the word 'rate' at some point

you may wish to look up the word 'rate' at some point

Oh now, why would he want to do that? You know, what with ignorance being bliss and all that.

Who emigrates from there country to go to friggin Oklahoma?:eek:

Oh now, why would he want to do that? You know, what with ignorance being bliss and all that.

true enough

Who emigrates from there country to go to friggin Oklahoma?:eek:

I wanted to make that joke. :(

But really, the only place in America worse then Mexico is Oklahoma.

Howzabout we abolish the quota system which limits the amount of nationalized citizens to come from a country (established in the 1800s - 1900s to stop the mass immigration from Europe) and actually secure the border. Thus people can get in legally, and the chance of known terrorists getting in is small.

That and the US should atleast attempt to get more of the smart and educated people to immigrate to the US from europe and asia.

Howzabout we abolish the quota system which limits the amount of nationalized citizens to come from a country (established in the 1800s - 1900s to stop the mass immigration from Europe) and actually secure the border. Thus people can get in legally, and the chance of known terrorists getting in is small.

That and the US should atleast attempt to get more of the smart and educated people to immigrate to the US from europe and asia.

Again with the "secure the border" rhetoric. For fuck's sake--more than half of the people here illegally came here legally on work visas and overstayed. They didn't sneak across the border. The border isn't the real problem. The real problem is that we do a shitty job of tracking people here on work visas, and we do a shitty job at that because American companies like it that way, and they give money to Congress to make sure it doesn't change.

Who emigrates from there country to go to friggin Oklahoma?:eek:
people who are tired of Texas? oh, and it's their, not there.

I wanted to make that joke. :(

But really, the only place in America worse then Mexico is Oklahoma.

why would Oklahoma be worse then Mexico? Do you think that the people who come here are so stupid that they would leave Mexico for somewhere worse? At the very least it's better than Texas, where they are coming here from, now as to whether or not Texas is better than Mexico......that's a hard question to answer.

Have you ever seen a police officer walk around asking people for ID? Fuck no. Now they will be encouraged to go around and harass all Hispanic people to see if they might be illegal. God help anyone not carrying ID on them when they go for a walk.

Have you ever been stopped by police for a driving violation? Have you ever been detained by the police for questioning? If you have then you know the first thing they ask for is your drivers license or ID.

and you could of told them to "kindly fuck off" unless your somewhere where there is an age limit you don't have to give them anything

Maybe in the UK but not in the US. If asked for an ID by police in the US you must produce it. If not, you are taking a trip to the police station and being held until they can verify your identity. You may even be charged with a crime for not producing an ID when asked.

Maybe in the UK but not in the US. If asked for an ID by police in the US you must produce it. If not, you are taking a trip to the police station and being held until they can verify your identity. You may even be charged with a crime for not producing an ID when asked.

"Ihre Papieren, bitte! Mach schnell!"

Of all the crazy things I've seen this country make illegal, human beings is by far the most insane.

Ok you are playing with semantics. We won't use the term "illegal ailens" any more. We will used the term "criminal undocumented ailens" instead if you prefer. :)

Oklahoma? Wtf, who wants to live there?

As of 2006, 3,579,212 people. :p

As of 2006, 3,579,212 people. :p

"Want" or "just happen to, the poor, pitiable, lethargic souls"?

Actually, he's right. And the governor is a Democrat as well. He's conservative, to be sure, but still a Democrat.

Umm...no, the Governor is not a conservative Democrat although he may be a moderate Democrat. If he were conservative he would have signed the abortion bill and not put his veto in it. The veto was upheld and the bill in now being re-written by the legislature.

I wanted to make that joke. :(

But really, the only place in America worse then Mexico is Oklahoma.

Never been to Mexico or Oklahoma have you. :rolleyes:

If he were conservative he would have signed the abortion bill and not put his veto in it.

i know that i claim that conservatism is a product of mental deficiencies, but isn't it a bit much to tie conservatism directly to utterly unjustifiable (even in principle) things like the bill he vetoed?

Umm...no, the Governor is not a conservative Democrat although he may be a moderate Democrat. If he were conservative he would have signed the abortion bill and not put his veto in it. The veto was upheld and the bill in now being re-written by the legislature.

Conservative =/= Neo-con

He's shown himself to be at least somewhat fiscally conservative, with his tax-cutting policies. He's implemented the two largest tax cuts in Oklahoma's history.

And he did sign into law a parental notification law regarding abortions. But he's expressed his belief that government should not be heavily involved in abortion law.

i know that i claim that conservatism is a product of mental deficiencies, but isn't it a bit much to tie conservatism directly to utterly unjustifiable (even in principle) things like the bill he vetoed?

I do beleive one of the tennants of conservatism was "the right to life" and not "a woman's choice." If I am correct (and I could be wrong) then the Governor would have signed the anti-abortion bill if he were a conservative.

I do beleive one of the tennants of conservatism was "the right to life" and not "a woman's choice." If I am correct (and I could be wrong) then the Governor would have signed the anti-abortion bill if he were a conservative.

Wrong.

Those are right-wing issues.

Conservatives are:

Small government, low government involvement in business.
Small government spending, (this tends to also lead into tax cuts and the like)
Low government debt.

I do beleive one of the tennants of conservatism was "the right to life" and not "a woman's choice." If I am correct (and I could be wrong) then the Governor would have signed the anti-abortion bill if he were a conservative.

no, it isn't. only something like 63% of self-identified conservative republicans want to make abortions harder to get than they are now. and even if it was, even the die-hards don't typically go in for bills that don't make exceptions for rape and incest.

Conservatives are:

Small government, low government involvement in business.
Small government spending, (this tends to also lead into tax cuts and the like)
Low government debt.

hah!

what's that old saying about actions and words again?

Conservative =/= Neo-con

He's shown himself to be at least somewhat fiscally conservative, with his tax-cutting policies. He's implemented the two largest tax cuts in Oklahoma's history.

The tax cutting polocies came from the State Legislature and were not initiated by Governor Henry. Although like most politicians, he is probably taking credit for something someone else did as long as the results were good. :eek:

Wrong.

Those are right-wing issues.

Conservatives are:

Small government, low government involvement in business.
Small government spending, (this tends to also lead into tax cuts and the like)
Low government debt.

I thought that was Libertarian.

hah!

what's that old saying about actions and words again?

It's more the old saying of calling yourself something that you aren't.

Somehow "conservative" has been horribly twisted and warped into something sounding more like "authoritarian ass."

It's more the old saying of calling yourself something that you aren't.

Somehow "conservative" has been horribly twisted and warped into something sounding more like "authoritarian ass."

Ain't that the truth. :(

I thought that was Libertarian.

No. Libertarian is a social qualifier, at least in my opinion. It's more like left and right than liberal and conservative.

You can be a libertarian capitalist, and you can be a libertarian socialist.

Edit: Basically as long as you believe in right to property and the need for mutual consent in all dealings (including government to people), you are a libertarian. There is belief in political and economic liberty, though.

It's more the old saying of calling yourself something that you aren't.

Somehow "conservative" has been horribly twisted and warped into something sounding more like "authoritarian ass."

wait, so is it your position that there has been a dramatic switch in which people call themselves conservative, or is it that there have only ever been like 4 conservatives in the country and everybody else has just been lying?

wait, so is it your position that there has been a dramatic switch in which people call themselves conservative, or is it that there have only ever been like 4 conservatives in the country and everybody else has just been lying?

Dramatic switch. From Goldwater conservativism to ...well what we have now.

I say good job Oklahoma...my tax money should be spent on citizens not illegals who are mooching off the system...If they want the benefits of our country then move her legally otherwise get the hell out..We should be literally throwing them out anyways and not just people from Mexico all illegals from any country should be removed

Dramatic switch. From Goldwater conservativism to ...well what we have now.

and what do all those people who used to call themselves conservative call themselves now, considering self-identification as conservative, moderate, and liberal has remained almost completely stable from the time of goldwater's lead balloon campaign to the present?

From Goldwater conservativism to ...well what we have now.

What's the difference?

(Yes, I know Goldwater expressed some more libertarian views later in his life. But "Goldwater conservatism" took place in a social climate that was more conservative on issues like gay rights and abortion, not less, so that hardly speaks for the movement.)

Never been to Mexico or Oklahoma have you. :rolleyes:

Nope, and never want to be, either. :D

Nope, and never want to be, either. :D

good, we don't want you.

Would you consider yourself a world federalist?...I haven't seen one in so long!...mabye the Unicorn is real...oh who am I kidding...*drinks self to death* :(

A federal world state is bad?

I don't think that could be workable in the real world. A nation should keep track of who's coming in for purposes of security, taxation, voting, and allocation of services to communities based on population. Without some process for screening and tracking immigrants that's kind of hard, maybe impossible.

Thats not really a matter of immigration, it is more surveilance.

...I live in Northampton and have to deal with the crap about how illegal immigrant Kosovan's are going to eat are wimmenz and then got to laugh as the attention moved to Poles who apparently steal money, NHS benefits and yet at the same time take all the jobs

Has the U.K already moved off the Turks?

Oklahoma? Wtf, who wants to live there?

I DO!

..... Wait I minute, no I don't.

I DON'T!

still have a lot of Native Americans here.

I called everyone and their dog about this bill, did no good. You know I envision myself being thrown in jail for giving someone a ride to the hospital.....I mean how do I know if they are legal or not? sure isn't going to stop me from trying to keep them from dying.

Dont worry Smunkee even if your good deed goes unpunished, the Hospital has been given the right to refuse service if they are illegal...chalk one up for justice and the American way...oh wait this is neither.

Never been to Mexico or Oklahoma have you. :rolleyes:

Never going to go to either, either. :D

Dont worry Smunkee even if your good deed goes unpunished, the Hospital has been given the right to refuse service if they are illegal...chalk one up for justice and the American way...oh wait this is neither.

only if it's not an emergency, which they have the right to do now anyway. In fact once when I didn't have insurance it took a year and a half to get a needed surgery because I didn't have the money to pay for it up front, so I had to save up the $10K.

Well I was being sarcastic, I still find this law a sad demonstration of the xenophobic condition of the White rural majority.
I was a bit shocked to read the bit about medical alert braclets...if I read it right that is. All very sad.

A federal world state is bad?

No actually I feel all forms of politics are bad, as well as Anarchy, because I feel people are incapable of managing themselves in any form or fashion that does not lead to an ultimate goal of oppression of some kind to perpetuate a self-image of perfection.

However I feel if we were a world state we would just be Earthlings killing other earthlings, no longer the English killing the Irish, Palestinians Killing Isrealis...etc. of course the killing would still be there...but at least when we say we're "killing each other" its makes more sense (for me atleast) due to the fact that we've eliminated the national barriers. The only real thing we would have to fight over is religion, and whatever else we as a species can create to divide ourselves for some sort of superiority and submission...are you a world federalist?...are you my unicorn? :fluffle:

No actually I feel all forms of politics are bad, as well as Anarchy, because I feel people are incapable of managing themselves in any form or fashion that does not lead to an ultimate goal of oppression of some kind to perpetuate a self-image of perfection.

Well the sooner we realise we are not perfect the sooner a workable solution could be found... unless you're a nihilist. Then you just want everything to end.

However I feel if we were a world state we would just be Earthlings killing other earthlings, no longer the English killing the Irish, Palestinians Killing Isrealis...etc. of course the killing would still be there...but at least when we say we're "killing each other" its makes more sense (for me atleast) due to the fact that we've eliminated the national barriers. The only real thing we would have to fight over is religion, and whatever else we as a species can create to divide ourselves for some sort of superiority and submission...are you a world federalist?...are you my unicorn? :fluffle:

I'm more of a species state federalist.

As to the unicorn: Is that supposed to be imaginary or just non-existent rarity?

A federal world state is bad?I am for a federation.