NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6653175.stm

"Some of the UK's best-selling chocolate bars, such as Mars and Twix, will no longer be suitable for vegetarians.

Also affecting brands such as Snickers and Maltesers, owner Masterfoods said it had started to use animal product rennet to make its chocolate products.

Masterfoods said the change was due to it switching the sourcing of its ingredients and the admission was a "principled decision" on its part.

The Vegetarian Society said the company's move was "incomprehensible".

'Extremely disappointed'

Masterfoods said it had started using rennet from 1 May and non-affected products had a "best before date" up to 1 October."

so how many of you are going to starve to death with this bombshell? :p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6653175.stm

"Some of the UK's best-selling chocolate bars, such as Mars and Twix, will no longer be suitable for vegetarians.

Also affecting brands such as Snickers and Maltesers, owner Masterfoods said it had started to use animal product rennet to make its chocolate products.

Masterfoods said the change was due to it switching the sourcing of its ingredients and the admission was a "principled decision" on its part.

The Vegetarian Society said the company's move was "incomprehensible".

'Extremely disappointed'

Masterfoods said it had started using rennet from 1 May and non-affected products had a "best before date" up to 1 October."

so how many of you are going to starve to death with this bombshell? :p

Starve to death because chocolate is now denied you?

I think those people in danger of starving to death with this change in diet are not true Vegietarians but... er... :confused: candytarians?

Hooray! Hopefully manufacturers of all food types will add animal products. Perhaps then we'll starve the disease that is vegan/vegetarianism out.

I think those people in danger of starving to death with this change in diet are not true Veggitarians but... er... :confused: candytarians?

AKA children and internet folk

I'm not a vegetarian but why?

Hooray! Hopefully manufacturers of all food types will add animal products. Perhaps then we'll starve the disease that is vegan/vegetarianism out.

but odds are one is your boss (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm)

Is it me or do Vegetarians just want to complain about something just so it'd seem like they're doing something, without actually having to do something?

I thought rennet was only used in making cheese. What does rennet do for chocolate?

Is it me or do Vegetarians just want to complain about something just so it'd seem like they're doing something, without actually having to do something?

Do something? Y'mean like - starving their children to death? That's something...

Do something? Y'mean like - starving their children to death? That's something...

Well something positive....

but odds are one is your boss (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm)

The intelligent often want to "make a difference." Altering your diet is an easy way to do so. It doesn't make them right.

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.

I'm not a vegetarian but why?

Why else? Money. The use of rennet must somehow reduce the cost of making it's chocolate. Maybe whey made with rennet is cheaper.

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.

Shoe leather, primarily.

it's just you. how exactly does someone being a vegetarian/vegan effect any of you? does their existence harm you any way? does their reduction in the strain on the environment or personal belief in animal rights keep you from sleeping at night? you are entitled to enjoy succulent animal flesh as much as I am entitled to not consume any animal products. with the world in the state that it is in today, people are not in a shortage of things to complain about. perhaps you are the one looking for something to complain about.

it's just you. how exactly does someone being a vegetarian/vegan effect any of you? does their existence harm you any way? does their reduction in the strain on the environment or personal belief in animal rights keep you from sleeping at night? you are entitled to enjoy succulent animal flesh as much as I am entitled to not consume any animal products. with the world in the state that it is in today, people are not in a shortage of things to complain about. perhaps you are the one looking for something to complain about.

Yes, it has an effect on me. I feel pity.

Yes, it has an effect on me. I feel pity.

Vegetarians are responsible for your lack of control over your emotions?

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.
Shoe leather, primarily.

I neglected to mention the leather chew toys for their inevitable housecats. Why do so many vegetarians keep filthy, verminous housecats in their midsts, anyway?

Vegetarians are responsible for your lack of control over your emotions?

Nah. Vegetarians invoke pity. Any other response would be cold-hearted.

it's just you. how exactly does someone being a vegetarian/vegan effect any of you? does their existence harm you any way? does their reduction in the strain on the environment or personal belief in animal rights keep you from sleeping at night? you are entitled to enjoy succulent animal flesh as much as I am entitled to not consume any animal products. with the world in the state that it is in today, people are not in a shortage of things to complain about. perhaps you are the one looking for something to complain about.

But Vegetarians/vegan likes to complain about EVERYTHING. They complain about fur coats, how much land it use to raise cattle, the killing of cattle, the use of animals for medical research, the chemicals people use on plants, the bio-engineering of plants and animals, How harvesting their precious vegetables and fruits kills many animals every year, oh wait, they don't complain about that. Really I don't care what they eat, or if they choose to eat at all, but God we don't need to hear about it, or WANT to hear about it.

Just noticed the poll. Does a human swimming in the chocolate render it unfit for vegetarians?

But Vegetarians/vegan likes to complain about EVERYTHING. They complain about fur coats, how much land it use to raise cattle, the killing of cattle, the use of animals for medical research, the chemicals people use on plants, the bio-engineering of plants and animals, How harvesting their precious vegetables and fruits kills many animals every year, oh wait, they don't complain about that. Really I don't care what they eat, or if they choose to eat at all, but God we don't need to hear about it, or WANT to hear about it.

Some of us vegans are noticeably silent on these issues until they are raised by others.

Millions of starving and homeless people, AIDS epidemic, illegal wars, human rights violations, environmental degradation, rape and murder, and your biggest concern is the ever-threatening vegetarian?

I didn't at any stage say it was my biggest concern. Far from it. Reading comprehension is the key.

Nah. Vegetarians invoke pity. Any other response would be cold-hearted.

Millions of starving and homeless people, AIDS epidemic, illegal wars, human rights violations, environmental degradation, rape and murder, and your biggest concern is the ever-threatening vegetarian?

I think those people in danger of starving to death with this change in diet are not true Vegietarians but... er... :confused: candytarians?:eek: The perfect setup! Quick, to the image searches!

http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1987/ch870509.gif

Some of us vegans are noticeably silent on these issues until they are raised by others.

I agree. I would not have even thought to begin a thread on the eating habits of others. But as a vegan, I felt compelled to respond to the unprovoked criticism.

Also, why the hell would they do that, when everybody else is busy cutting out animal product where possible? :confused:

The intelligent often want to "make a difference." Altering your diet is an easy way to do so. It doesn't make them right.

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.
*giggles*

Surely you jest? As in, the absurd circular logic (actually, more like a circular fallacy) is an intentional play for laughs, right?

Also, why the hell would they do that, when everybody else is busy cutting out animal product where possible? :confused:


*giggles*

Surely you jest? As in, the absurd circular logic (actually, more like a circular fallacy) is an intentional play for laughs, right?

Yeah, I'll concede I'm being over dramatic and slightly absurd since I view vegetarianism as such.

Some of us vegans are noticeably silent on these issues until they are raised by others.

Because they do not allow themselves to have cheese with the whine?

Thank Hastur I'm a carnivore :)

Mmmm... Chocolate :fluffle:

Thank Hastur I'm a carnivore :)

Mmmm... Chocolate :fluffle:

If you're eating chocolate you're an omnivore, no?

Just noticed the poll. Does a human swimming in the chocolate render it unfit for vegetarians?

No. Even vegans can partake, as long as said human does not fart or pee while swimming.

it's just you. how exactly does someone being a vegetarian/vegan effect any of you? does their existence harm you any way? does their reduction in the strain on the environment or personal belief in animal rights keep you from sleeping at night? you are entitled to enjoy succulent animal flesh as much as I am entitled to not consume any animal products. with the world in the state that it is in today, people are not in a shortage of things to complain about. perhaps you are the one looking for something to complain about.

I feel bad for your type. I really do, denying yourself delicious, delicious things.

Oh, and the nitwits who go around shouting "Meat is Murder" piss me off.

Just noticed the poll. Does a human swimming in the chocolate render it unfit for vegetarians?

No. Even vegans can partake, as long as said human does not fart or pee while swimming.

hmmm... only farting and peeing makes it unfit? well, I guess the Chocolate would have to get it's brown coloring from somewhere... :p

:eek: The perfect setup! Quick, to the image searches!

http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1987/ch870509.gif

thank you.. I was looking for that particular strip. :D

thank you.. I was looking for that particular strip. :DReally? So that's why that setup was so perfect...

I feel bad for your type. I really do, denying yourself delicious, delicious things.

Oh, and the nitwits who go around shouting "Meat is Murder" piss me off.

No need to feel bad for my "type." I enjoy my lifestyle. I do not feel bad for omnivores- to each their own. Also, I do not go around shouting "Meat is Murder." The resources are out there and people will do with them what they want.

No. Even vegans can partake, as long as said human does not fart or pee while swimming.

<_<

>_>

...kay.

Well, it's not food unless something suffers.

it's just you. how exactly does someone being a vegetarian/vegan effect any of you? does their existence harm you any way? does their reduction in the strain on the environment or personal belief in animal rights keep you from sleeping at night? you are entitled to enjoy succulent animal flesh as much as I am entitled to not consume any animal products. with the world in the state that it is in today, people are not in a shortage of things to complain about. perhaps you are the one looking for something to complain about.

Some people take other people's decisions as a personal affront. I don't have an explination for this, just an observation. But it usually contains the irony that you just pointed out. After all, it doesn't seem that remarkable that vegetarians, who have as their only theme that they don't eat meat or animal products, can not eat a candy bar made from animal products. Oh no! That doesn't seem that shocking or extreme, but rather in keeping with their beliefs. To be up in arms or even chuckling about it seems like making a big deal about a door opening and closing. "Look, now it's closed, but a second ago it was open! OMG!"

But tell people here you have an iPod and it will seem like you told them you bought a child on the black market to beat with a bungee chord. Smugly bitching about other people's choices is a pastime as much as anything.

If you're eating chocolate you're an omnivore, no?

In theory ;)

Who cares really what Masterfoods does? And since when do they produce real chocolate?

Hooray! Hopefully manufacturers of all food types will add animal products. Perhaps then we'll starve the disease that is vegan/vegetarianism out.
*applause*

This would rock.

since when do they produce real chocolate?

I tried Mayan chocolate at Cadbury land, its revolting :(

Why else? Money. The use of rennet must somehow reduce the cost of making it's chocolate. Maybe whey made with rennet is cheaper.There are various vegetarian rennets available. They've most likely simply changed to a cheaper source, believing it will save them more money than lost revenue through loss of vegetarian consumers. I believe the rennet is used to thicken the fats used in chocolate production. Meaning you get solid chocolate rather than a fromage-frais-esque chocolate.

Anyway, the stuff they use to cover chocolate bars is hardly worthy of the term 'chocolate'. Too much vegetable oil, not enough cocoa butter or milk fat.

There are various vegetarian rennets available. They've most likely simply changed to a cheaper source, believing it will save them more money than lost revenue through loss of vegetarian consumers. I believe the rennet is used to thicken the fats used in chocolate production. Meaning you get solid chocolate rather than a fromage-frais-esque chocolate.

Anyway, the stuff they use to cover chocolate bars is hardly worthy of the term 'chocolate'. Too much vegetable oil, not enough cocoa butter or milk fat.
Vegetarians also tend to be health conscious and aren't as likely to be heavy candy bar eaters, so I don't think that they're too worried about a big drop in sales...

Can vegans eat swedish fish? :confused:

I neglected to mention the leather chew toys for their inevitable housecats. Why do so many vegetarians keep filthy, verminous housecats in their midsts, anyway?

Because they secretly hate and want to kill all cute little animals like birds, mice, and rabbits.

I'll stick to chocolates. Personal choice. If you don't want to eat it because it contains animal enzyme, your choice. Just as I don't like to eat lettuce because they taste like leaves.

*nibbles on a humongous chocolate bar*

Mmmmmm.

But Vegetarians/vegan likes to complain about EVERYTHING. They complain about fur coats, how much land it use to raise cattle, the killing of cattle, the use of animals for medical research, the chemicals people use on plants, the bio-engineering of plants and animals, How harvesting their precious vegetables and fruits kills many animals every year, oh wait, they don't complain about that. Really I don't care what they eat, or if they choose to eat at all, but God we don't need to hear about it, or WANT to hear about it.

If you don't like people complaining, why are you adding to it?

I neglected to mention the leather chew toys for their inevitable housecats. Why do so many vegetarians keep filthy, verminous housecats in their midsts, anyway?Cheaper than calling out pest control. Get a female one so they don't spray... ever. Bate them into hating foxes and tom-cats (this isn't hard) and your house and garden will never be disturbed by such creatures and their stink again

If you're worried about cat poo then just get a dog as well. Apparently they eat cat poo. Something about nutrients or something... like how Rabbits eat their own droppings. Probably.

Vegetarians also tend to be health conscious and aren't as likely to be heavy candy bar eaters, so I don't think that they're too worried about a big drop in sales...Right. Candy bars are disgusting.

Cheaper than calling out pest control. Get a female one so they don't spray... ever. Bate them into hating foxes and tom-cats (this isn't hard) and your house and garden will never be disturbed by such creatures and their stink again

Lesbian Kitties. :)

Lesbian Kitties. :)

Although I've had a hard time finding them, they should exist...

And my problem with chocolate is that they give me migraines. That should be an option in the poll! Chocolate is a big (extremely common) migraine trigger... which sucks, because I love chocolate!!! :(

Because they secretly hate and want to kill all cute little animals like birds, mice, and rabbits.

I find it baffling that while omnivorous human beings can get vegetarians riled over their dining choices, cat-owning vegetarians nonetheless buy into the notion that it's somehow cute when their wretched felines capture, torture and later discard (without eating) the aforementioned little animals.

pfft, buy belgian chocolate ftw!

Lesbian Kitties. :)Not necessarily. Just think how some women react to cat calls from men. Only cats don't have to worry about going overboard on the violence because of fear of prison. It helps if you get them spayed as well. A territorial animal with no urge for sexual reproduction that is having its territory encroached upon is a sight to behold indeed.

Lesbian Kitties. :)

Getting into the furry porn again?

Getting into the furry porn again?

Um... no....

*coughs up a hairball*

Shit! :(

*sheds a tear for the poor oppressed vegetarians*

*dries eye*

*eats a chocolate bar*

I already can't eat chocolate because it has high potassium so this is no real loss for me.

Great, another thread where a bunch of idiots talk crap about vegetarians with baseless generalizations, and your average douchbaggery. :rolleyes:

We can feel sorry for them because they don't experience the pleasure of tasting animal flesh. I'm sure many will join me in this.

But if someone chooses not to eat something, what do I care? As long as they don't get on my case for enjoying meat myself.

Agreed.

Great, another thread where a bunch of idiots talk crap about vegetarians with baseless generalizations. :rolleyes:

We can feel sorry for them because they don't experience the pleasure of tasting animal flesh. I'm sure many will join me in this.

But if someone chooses not to eat something, what do I care? As long as they don't get on my case for enjoying meat myself.

Great, another thread where a bunch of idiots talk crap about vegetarians with baseless generalizations. :rolleyes:

Great! Another another post making baseless generalizations about threads filled with baseless generalizations! :rolleyes:


:fluffle:

We can feel sorry for them because they don't experience the pleasure of tasting animal flesh. I'm sure many will join me in this.

But if someone chooses not to eat something, what do I care? As long as they don't get on my case for enjoying meat myself.

Don't fee sorry for me. I hate the taste of meat but I love fish. I'm only a "vegetarian" because of that. Though a very loose one at that.

Leave me fish good and alone and I won't be arsed to get between you and your meat.

I find vegatariens anoying. They act as if there on a crusade to stop us from eating the evil that is a burger...


I mean realy, you never see someone jewish running up and telling you your horrible for eating bacoon on your burger, or eating shellfish.

So why is it that vegitariens think it's right that they can try push there food belifes onto me? X___x

We can feel sorry for them because they don't experience the pleasure of tasting animal flesh. I'm sure many will join me in this.

But if someone chooses not to eat something, what do I care? As long as they don't get on my case for enjoying meat myself.


No need to feel sorry for us, I've had plenty of meat during my lifetime. I am perfectly happy with the food I eat. When I'm not lazy most of the dinners I cook are quite gourmetish. Contrary to what you seem to believe, we aren't stuck with twigs and berries as our only diet.

So you don't care what we choose to eat but you will feel sorry for us for not eating meat? Okayyyyyyyy

Hmm, not sure I've seen any vegetarians in this thread put meat eaters down for their diet at all. Can't say that I've seen the same courtesty from the asses that chose to attack vegetarians for their diet.

If you look at the majority of threads you will find the same thing there. Meat aeaters attackign the vegetarian/vegan diet, with little to no reciprocation.




What the hell is rennet anyway?

Great! Another another post making baseless generalizations about threads filled with baseless generalizations! :rolleyes:


:fluffle:

I'm glad to know you LG and appreciate the way you handle yourself in the vegetarian attack threads, of which there have been many on my time on NSG.

:fluffle:

No need to feel sorry for us, I've had plenty of meat during my lifetime. I am perfectly happy with the food I eat. When I'm not lazy most of the dinners I cook are quite gourmetish. Contrary to what you seem to believe, we aren't stuck with twigs and berries as our only diet.

So you don't care what we choose to eat but you will feel sorry for us for not eating meat? Okayyyyyyyy

Hmm, not sure I've seen any vegetarians in this thread put meat eaters down for their diet at all. Can't say that I've seen the same courtesty from the asses that chose to attack vegetarians for their diet.

If you look at the majority of threads you will find the same thing there. Meat aeaters attackign the vegetarian/vegan diet, with little to no reciprocation.




What the hell is rennet anyway?



Damn serioues, your the 1st vegetarian I've every met who doesn't go on about meat is evil.

You are awsome.

Can vegans eat swedish fish? :confused:

Nobody answered my question. :(

I'm glad to know you LG and appreciate the way you handle yourself in the vegetarian attack threads, of which there have been many on my time on NSG.

:fluffle:

Well, my tendency to mock those who blindly follow ideologies of any type makes an interesting balance to my tendency to not give a damn what people do on their own time. :)

For the most part, I save my harshest criticism for people who think they know what's best for other people. *nod*

Damn serioues, your the 1st vegetarian I've every met who doesn't go on about meat is evil.

You are awsome.

I'm no more awesome than anyone else.

Not sure where you live but I haven't met any "PETA" vegetarians/vegans (as in militant ones who put down others for their diets) save one and I didn't like her either, and I lived in Los Angeles; I think there was one on NSG before as well, and I rejected that viewpoint as did the majority of other vegan/vegetarians here.

Well, my tendency to mock those who blindly follow ideologies of any type makes an interesting balance to my tendency to not give a damn what people do on their own time. :)

For the most part, I save my harshest criticism for people who think they know what's best for other people. *nod*


ditto on all of the above - I know that about you and can appreciate any ribbing you would give others about their diet (or any other personal preference), as you have me for my diet (I forget exactly what it was but I remember that it did involve a tofu frog). I've lost respect for a few others on this site though. No matter, it's not like I'm here to make friends as that is just something I generally don't do online, but it is pretty dissapointing sometimes anyhow.

If you look at the majority of threads you will find the same thing there. Meat aeaters attackign the vegetarian/vegan diet, with little to no reciprocation.




I know I've had the famed "meat is murder" slogan shouted at me while walking to class more than a handful of times. I've seen people running around in fur and leather soaked in fake blood, as well as countless posters hanging all around that follow in that general theme.

It's like that irritating Brother Jeb (as we students call him), uninvited, noisy moralizing, that is more often than not, rude and crude. They don't represent a majority, or even a sizable portion of the population, but they are the most visible.

Nobody answered my question. :(

what's swedish fish? is this a sexual joke?

I know I've had the famed "meat is murder" slogan shouted at me while walking to class more than a handful of times. I've seen people running around in fur and leather soaked in fake blood, as well as countless posters hanging all around that follow in that general theme.

It's like that irritating Brother Jeb (as we students call him), uninvited, noisy moralizing, that is more often than not, rude and crude. They don't represent a majority, or even a sizable portion of the population, but they are the most visible.

Where the hell do you live? My boss said he saw that all the time in college in Colorado too(but he said that's because his college was like the protest capital of the world and people protested just to protest). I've never seen it at my college, but then again we didn't hold protest rallies, or whatever they are called, there. So, I'm not saying they don't exist but I personally would ahve to seek them out to find them because they aren't so prevalent in society as some vegetarian-haters make it seem.

All I can suggest for those who do attack vegetarians because of the loudmouth minority is to attack THEM back, not the group as a whole. I'm not Muslim but when some Muslims shout "death to America" I don't denounce all of Islam like some idiots I know. When a christian shouts something hateful I don't blame Christianity as a whole.

Anyone who does so is worthy of nothing but contempt.

Where the hell do you live? My boss said he saw that all the time in college in Colorado too(but he said that's because his college was like the protest capital of the world and people protested just to protest). I've never seen it at my college, but then again we didn't hold protest rallies, or whatever they are called, there. So, I'm not saying they don't exist but I personally would ahve to seek them out to find them because they aren't so prevalent in society as some vegetarian-haters make it seem.
Large state schools seem to be uniquely prone to the irritating protester problem. It's not a class day at Ohio State without someone shouting at you as you walk to class.

All I can suggest for those who do attack vegetarians because of the loudmouth minority is to attack THEM back, not the group as a whole. I'm not Muslim but when some Muslims shout "death to America" I don't denounce all of Islam like some idiots I know. When a christian shouts something hateful I don't blame Christianity as a whole.

Anyone who does so is worthy of nothing but contempt.

It's usually a vividness fallacy, and most people lose sight of the fact that the extreme does not represent the whole, so very often.

It's part of how the mind works. It indexes groups by what is most memorable, and I know I'm guilty of it far too often.

what's swedish fish? is this a sexual joke?

I wish it was.

No, Swedish Fish is a type of candy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_fish

((annoyingly, when I looked it up on Wikipedia for you, it answered my question. :p ))

Large state schools seem to be uniquely prone to the irritating protester problem. It's not a class day at Ohio State without someone shouting at you as you walk to class.



It's usually a vividness fallacy, and most people lose sight of the fact that the extreme does not represent the whole, so very often.

It's part of how the mind works. It indexes groups by what is most memorable, and I know I'm guilty of it far too often.

Yeah, I mean, I know it happens that way, but it's intellectual lazyness which is nothing but easy to get over with a moments thought.


I wish it was.

No, Swedish Fish is a type of candy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_fish

((annoyingly, when I looked it up on Wikipedia for you, it answered my question. :p ))

:D

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.

So let me get this straight...
Anyone with a moral frame that differs from yours is "less intelligent" ? It does not matter what their reasoning is - it is just wrong ?

Wow. I almost wished I felt the same way, so I could justify torturing you for fun. Alas, I do not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6653175.stm

"Some of the UK's best-selling chocolate bars, such as Mars and Twix, will no longer be suitable for vegetarians.

Also affecting brands such as Snickers and Maltesers, owner Masterfoods said it had started to use animal product rennet to make its chocolate products.

Masterfoods said the change was due to it switching the sourcing of its ingredients and the admission was a "principled decision" on its part.

The Vegetarian Society said the company's move was "incomprehensible".

'Extremely disappointed'

Masterfoods said it had started using rennet from 1 May and non-affected products had a "best before date" up to 1 October."

so how many of you are going to starve to death with this bombshell? :p

I'n slightly annoyed with this post because you poke fun at us vegetarians, though the actions don't upset me. I have never eaten any of those candy-bars, I haven't even heard of most. And even if I had, it's their decision anyway, who am I to get pissed?

Is it me or do Vegetarians just want to complain about something just so it'd seem like they're doing something, without actually having to do something?

I resent that. It's stereo-typing, and in order not to be a victum, I have to eat meat. That's awful. This is one society and you say "vegetarians". Please, stop with your obviously blantant hate of vegetarians.

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.
Not all animals are food. Humans aren't food. Many toads aren't food. Pituhui isn't food. Pogonophores aren't food.

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.

So you think, even though animals existed LONG before humans, that they're just here to be used as a meal? How ignorant. Humans make a nice meal for some animals! I find your statement highly ironic because it shows lack of thought on your part, which you accuse others of.

Every vegetarian I've ever met has been less intelligent than me, primarily because they view animals as something other than food.
You criticise me for viewing humans as something other than food and tell me I'm less intelligent than you?

Gotta love NS.

You criticise me for viewing humans as something other than food and tell me I'm less intelligent than you?

Gotta love NS.

Yup, it boosts my ego every time I compare my intelligence to that of the poster's. I really need to find something better to do then mock obvious idiots...

But Vegetarians/vegan likes to complain about EVERYTHING.
No, PETA likes to complain about everything. Out of the ten vegetarians (including me) I know one supports PETA. You fail at accurate generalizations.
How harvesting their precious vegetables and fruits kills many animals every year, oh wait, they don't complain about that. Really I don't care what they eat, or if they choose to eat at all, but God we don't need to hear about it, or WANT to hear about it.

We don't want to here YOU complain about us either.

so how many of you are going to starve to death with this bombshell? :p

Meh. Not much of a chocolate person anyways. :p

Is it me or do Vegetarians just want to complain about something just so it'd seem like they're doing something, without actually having to do something?

Do something.... like going vegetarian?

Hooray! Hopefully manufacturers of all food types will add animal products. Perhaps then we'll starve the disease that is vegan/vegetarianism out.

YES! destroy the vegetarian menace

But Vegetarians/vegan likes to complain about EVERYTHING. They complain about fur coats, how much land it use to raise cattle, the killing of cattle, the use of animals for medical research, the chemicals people use on plants, the bio-engineering of plants and animals, How harvesting their precious vegetables and fruits kills many animals every year, oh wait, they don't complain about that. Really I don't care what they eat, or if they choose to eat at all, but God we don't need to hear about it, or WANT to hear about it.

You are stupid.

Vegetarianism is much more older than PETA. You have a problem with PETA, take it up with them. I am sick of veggie bashing by people who don't understand that there's more to vegetarianism than PETA.

For instance, raising plants and feeding them to animals and then eating the animal is such an inefficient way of feeding ourselves. Contrast that with the millions of malnourished and underfed people in the world.

Seriously, what do you want vegetarians to do?

Starve and committ suicide because their lifestyle causes death to other lives. :rolleyes:

For instance, raising plants and feeding them to animals and then eating the animal is such an inefficient way of feeding ourselves.

Given the choice between eating a cow - who in turn eats grass, versus eating grass, I'll choose the cow.

Contrast that with the millions of malnourished and underfed people in the world.

But they'd make for comparitively poor eating, what with being malnourished and all. I'll stick with the cow, thanks all the same.

Meh. Not much of a chocolate person anyways. :p

*gives chocolate knowing you have less tolerance to the poison* :p

Given the choice between eating a cow - who in turn eats grass, versus eating grass, I'll choose the cow.

ah but giving the choice between eating a rabbit and eating carrots with PO-TA-TO I think I will go with the carrots and tators with some ketchup :D

ah but giving the choice between eating a rabbit and eating carrots with PO-TA-TO I think I will go with the carrots and tators with some ketchup :D

A chacun son gout. I like rabbit; it's a tad chewy, but most flavourful.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6653175.stm

"Some of the UK's best-selling chocolate bars, such as Mars and Twix, will no longer be suitable for vegetarians.

Also affecting brands such as Snickers and Maltesers, owner Masterfoods said it had started to use animal product rennet to make its chocolate products.

Masterfoods said the change was due to it switching the sourcing of its ingredients and the admission was a "principled decision" on its part.

The Vegetarian Society said the company's move was "incomprehensible".

'Extremely disappointed'

Masterfoods said it had started using rennet from 1 May and non-affected products had a "best before date" up to 1 October."

so how many of you are going to starve to death with this bombshell? :p


I believe that the Vegetarian Society is blowing this whole thing whey out of proportion.

:D

I believe that the Vegetarian Society is blowing this whole thing whey out of proportion.

:D

owowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowowow

Given the choice between eating a cow - who in turn eats grass, versus eating grass, I'll choose the cow.


:rolleyes:

Are you that dense?

You grow plants that you can eat in the land and put to better use the arable land, water and other resources you put in to grow stuff that you can directly eat, instead of wasting it in coverting it into animal food.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6653175.stm

"Some of the UK's best-selling chocolate bars, such as Mars and Twix, will no longer be suitable for vegetarians.

Also affecting brands such as Snickers and Maltesers, owner Masterfoods said it had started to use animal product rennet to make its chocolate products.

Masterfoods said the change was due to it switching the sourcing of its ingredients and the admission was a "principled decision" on its part.

The Vegetarian Society said the company's move was "incomprehensible".

'Extremely disappointed'

Masterfoods said it had started using rennet from 1 May and non-affected products had a "best before date" up to 1 October."

so how many of you are going to starve to death with this bombshell? :p

If I were vegetarian (which I'm not) this would be enough to make me stop. There is no life without chocolate.

:rolleyes:

Are you that dense?

You grow plants that you can eat in the land and put to better use the arable land, water and other resources you put in to grow stuff that you can directly eat, instead of wasting it in coverting it into animal food.

Yeah? Well no amount of 'stuff' tastes anywhere near as good as a medium rare, bacon-wrapped filet.

Yeah? Well no amount of 'stuff' tastes anywhere near as good as a medium rare, bacon-wrapped filet.

I can understand that. I myself have eaten more types of meat than most here.

That was not the point you made.

If I were vegetarian (which I'm not) this would be enough to make me stop. There is no life without chocolate.

well you could still get Tesco brand chocolate...yeah lets not be silly :p

I got this story emailed to me from a vegetarian apparently the plan is to hoard Galaxy and hope to survive the meaty fallout (a genius masterfoods plot?)

Yeah? Well no amount of 'stuff' tastes anywhere near as good as a medium rare, bacon-wrapped filet.

ice cream? cookies? vege-meat (some of the stuff taste more like meat than meat :eek:)

I can understand that. I myself have eaten more types of meat than most here.

*sniggers*

:rolleyes:

Are you that dense?

You grow plants that you can eat in the land and put to better use the arable land, water and other resources you put in to grow stuff that you can directly eat, instead of wasting it in coverting it into animal food.

Actually, by putting land under crops, you're destroying biodiversity and contributing to pollution and the destruction of species - I suspect that it's this, and not EM, that's contributing to the destruction of honeybees. I worked on a farm and observed first hand what happens to birds, small mammals and insects when a plow or harvester goes through a field, I really didn't like looking at the small, decapitated bodies of rabbits, mice, plovers, etc. Many useful species have been driven to extinction by farmers.

Additionally, the destruction of diverse biomass required by crop farming is a possible contributor to global warming.

And crops waste oil - we use more oil producing crops than is warranted by the crops produced (unless, of course, you want to plow, harvest and maintain crops like we did 150 years ago).

I think that vegetarianism is in many regards, less ethical and more wasteful than eating meat.

but odds are one is your boss (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm)

Since when are bosses the intelligent ones?

For instance, raising plants and feeding them to animals and then eating the animal is such an inefficient way of feeding ourselves.

If we ignore the fact that those animals produce proteins and such we need that we can't get from plants :rolleyes:
Silly vegetarians.

If we ignore the fact that those animals produce proteins and such we need that we can't get from plants :rolleyes:
Silly vegetarians.

Those millions who have lived as vegetarians and the millions who are living as vegetarians are all utter fools I say...:rolleyes:

Since when are bosses the intelligent ones?

there smart in my eyes when they give me money and look for people to promote :p

If we ignore the fact that those animals produce proteins and such we need that we can't get from plants :rolleyes:
Silly vegetarians.

here have some nuts ;) (Major Tom may also have something to say with his protein pills that he has to take)

In the midst of "You're stupid", "No, you're stupid", "Yeah, well you're more stupidest!" I find myself wondering what chocolate covered steak would taste like...

Filet mignon au chocolat...

Those millions who have lived as vegetarians and the millions who are living as vegetarians are all utter fools I say...:rolleyes:
With their silly chemical supplements. Doesn't sound like some sort of ironic hypocrisy to me at all.

In the midst of "You're stupid", "No, you're stupid", "Yeah, well you're more stupidest!" I find myself wondering what chocolate covered steak would taste like...

done it with chocolate spread, such a waste of good meat especially when the cow could of given me milk for the chocolate *ponders how you breed a cow to produce chocolate milk like in scooby doo*

Actually, by putting land under crops, you're destroying biodiversity and contributing to pollution and the destruction of species

As opposed to growing hay and grain to feed cattle instead?

Great biodiversity there..:rolleyes:

I worked on a farm and observed first hand what happens to birds, small mammals and insects when a plow or harvester goes through a field, I really didn't like looking at the small, decapitated bodies of rabbits, mice, plovers, etc. Many useful species have been driven to extinction by farmers.

I own a farm. I have worked in the fields.

What's the difference in killing them while harvesting for your own food or harvesting it for feeding to animals?

My point is not that no animal is harmed while being a vegetarian. That's obviously BS. My point is that as a whole (considering the shrinking arable land to people ratio) - we are better off growing plants that we can directly eat than growing grass. Am I arguing we stop growing ALL other stuff and grow ONLY stuff that we can eat? NO. Is it that hard to understand this position?

Additionally, the destruction of diverse biomass required by crop farming is a possible contributor to global warming.

Yeah and the methane from cows cause global cooling, I hear. :p

I think that vegetarianism is in many regards, less ethical and more wasteful than eating meat.

You are welcome to your opinion. Since you have not used any precise quantifiers for the qualities (ethical, wasteful), I cannot argue with that without wasting my time over this. So, I guess...you can carry on...;)

done it with chocolate spread, such a waste of good meat especially when the cow could of given me milk for the chocolate *ponders how you breed a cow to produce chocolate milk like in scooby doo*

Why you feed a few gallons of chocolate syrup -intravenously if need be- yank it up by a crane and spin it around a couple hundred times or so until it pukes and voila! Chocolate milk!

I think I just made myself never want to have chocolate milk again. Damn me and my runaway brain!

With their silly chemical supplements. Doesn't sound like some sort of ironic hypocrisy to me at all.

Yeah, those Jains of 200 A.D were quite big on chemical supplements...

I'm a cacaovore.

Gimme chocolate.

As opposed to growing hay and grain to feed cattle instead?

Great biodiversity there..:rolleyes:
Are you asserting cattle can't be grazed? Great way to prove your point that, pretend any other method of feeding cattle doesn't exist.

Are you asserting cattle can't be grazed? Great way to prove your point that, pretend any other method of feeding cattle doesn't exist.

Yeah man, all those cattle in the animal farms are all grazed in the open land, land that cannot be used to grow food that we can directly eat.:rolleyes:

You would not know how to hobble a cow for grazing even if your life depended on it.

I'm not a vegetarian but why?

What difference does it make? Chocolate always had dairy in it.

Yeah man, all those cattle in the animal farms are all grazed in the open land, land that cannot be used to grow food that we can directly eat.
Yeah, that totally defeats my point when your whole argument was "we could grow feed for ourselves on land we use to grow feed for cows."

You would not know how to hobble a cow for grazing even if your life depended on it.
In the real world, something your vegetarian land doesn't seem to exist in, there are people who specialize in different jobs. Some even hobble cows for grazing so I don't have to.

I voted carbs 'cos I'm too old for zits (spots, pimples) and never had much of a prob with histamines anyway. "Too yummy" made exactly no sense, and I really don't have a problem with a fun-loving freak taking a warm mud-bath. Just, no pictures please ...

And yes, I'm a vego. I eat as little meat as practical, but that "I won't eat anything cooked in that pan because it once had meat in it" attitude is divisive ideological crap and I won't pander to it.

In the real world, something your vegetarian land doesn't seem to exist in, there are people who specialize in different jobs. Some even hobble cows for grazing so I don't have to.


In the real world most animals destined for the dinner table are not grown like that, and it can be hard to get depending on where you live. Therefor some people prefer to be vegetarian. It's not harming you, so why do you care?

Oh and I've vegetarian and I don't need suppliments, you can easily survive and get all the nutrition you need from alterntive sources.

In the real world most animals destined for the dinner table are not grown like that, and it can be hard to get depending on where you live. Therefor some people prefer to be vegetarian. It's not harming you, so why do you care?

I've noticed some people can be quite insulted if you won't share food with them. Pretty crazy to carry that onto an online forum though.

Oh and I'm vegetarian and I don't need suppliments, you can easily survive and get all the nutrition you need from alterntive sources.

And if you like to eat big but can't afford the carbs (me!) you can eat heaps of non-starchy vegetables. Everyone should eat a lot of green vegies and other kinds and fruit, but not having meat kind of forces you to, for variety and taste.

Actually, I do take supplements when my diet is lazy. Those noodle days.

And if you like to eat big but can't afford the carbs (me!) you can eat heaps of non-starchy vegetables. Everyone should eat a lot of green vegies and other kinds and fruit, but not having meat kind of forces you to, for variety and taste.


Agreed, I love the food that I eat, most of the time eating meat never occurs to me there is so much to eat without it.

With their silly chemical supplements. Doesn't sound like some sort of ironic hypocrisy to me at all.
No, I believe that's the sound of someone being a jackass about something they don't know anything about. Chemical supplements? Oh yeah, my cupboard's full of 'em. What have we got here, let's take a look...we've got...uh...paprika? Is that a chemical supplement? No? Damn. What about asafoetida? That isn't either?! But the guy down the health food shop swore blind! Bastard!

Stop shooting your mouth off and get a decent argument.

Of course any upset vegetarians could always go off and buy some decent, proper, chocolate like Godiva or Green & Blacks or even Lindt. All of which are better than that sugary, vegetable fat-laden crap MAsterfoods try to pass off as chocolate.

Yeah, that totally defeats my point when your whole argument was "we could grow feed for ourselves on land we use to grow feed for cows."You missed his his argument entirely.

Let me introduce you to mister Biomass Pyramid. You might also know him by the names ecological pyramid or trophic pyramid.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/EnergyPyramid.png/300px-EnergyPyramid.png

What's that mister biomass pyramid? You say that only 10% of biomass from a lower trophic level is used to create biomass in the next trophic level up? So that would mean that a field that is used to grow crops to feed humans could feed 10 times more people than a field used to graze cows or grow crops to feed cows... fascinating.

Oh, there's more? Please tell me mister biomass pyramid, what else do you know? That most crops require no more than 2,000 litres to produce one kilogram of the crop, whereas to produce one kilogram of beef around 50,000 or more litres are needed... Wow, that's a really damning indictment of the wastefulness of meat production, mister biomass pyramid. Thanks for telling me.

No, I believe that's the sound of someone being a jackass about something they don't know anything about. Chemical supplements? Oh yeah, my cupboard's full of 'em. What have we got here, let's take a look...we've got...uh...paprika? Is that a chemical supplement? No? Damn. What about asafoetida? That isn't either?! But the guy down the health food shop swore blind! Bastard!

It's quite amazing how these arguments are invented out of thin air. Entire communities (Jains, Brahmins etc) have been vegetarians for millenia now without using "chemical supplements". Their survival as a community indicates that it is quite possible to be a vegetarian without all the hoopla that is associated with vegetarians nowadays.

In my own family, the women have always been vegetarians. My grandma, my mom and my sister. The men (grandpa, dad and myself until 2 years ago) have been non-vegetarians. My Grandma is now 75 and still healthy while my grandpa is long dead. My dad is unhealthy while my mom is very healthy.

Both my mom and grandmom have never taken tablets or "chemical supplements" for food, as medicines when they got sick with some illness - yes, but not as food. If anybody asks them what dietary supplements they take to complement the insufficient nourishment they get from a vegetarian diet, they will laugh at that person for their silliness.

Added Later: Thanks Infinite Dunes.

Thank jeebus I'm not a vegetarian. I'd die without mah chocolate.

What difference does it make? Chocolate always had dairy in it.

Two words: dark chocolate.

In my own family, the women have always been vegetarians. My grandma, my mom and my sister. The men (grandpa, dad and myself until 2 years ago) have been non-vegetarians. My Grandma is now 75 and still healthy while my grandpa is long dead. My dad is unhealthy while my mom is very healthy.

I'm sure the stress of having to deal with you people drove all the men to an early grave...

Meh, I don't eat those brands anyway - the rennet (no I'm not a vegetarian) would put me off them more, though. Besides, the chocolate is only generally a small coating on those bars/foods anyway. As long as my favourite brands of Belgian chocolate or Cadburys keep their recipes as they are I'll be happy.

Two words: dark chocolate.

Oh yeah that TOTALLY owns.
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/tap.gif

I'm sure the stress of having to deal with you people drove all the men to an early grave...

lol...in that case the womenfolk of my family should be ones going to an early grave...:D

Thank jeebus I'm not a vegetarian. I'd die without mah chocolate.

Chocolate... Can't live without it, can't live without access to it :)

Meh, I don't eat those brands anyway - the rennet (no I'm not a vegetarian) would put me off them more, though. Besides, the chocolate is only generally a small coating on those bars/foods anyway. As long as my favourite brands of Belgian chocolate or Cadburys keep their recipes as they are I'll be happy.
Mmmm...salmonella-ey goodness. ;)

Oh, there's more? Please tell me mister biomass pyramid, what else do you know? That most crops require no more than 2,000 litres to produce one kilogram of the crop, whereas to produce one kilogram of beef around 50,000 or more litres are needed... Wow, that's a really damning indictment of the wastefulness of meat production, mister biomass pyramid. Thanks for telling me.Where human edible crops can't grow - nutrient poor earth, climate, environment, etc.. - you can almost always grow plants that meat sources can eat around the year ('cept arctic/antarctic, where eating locally produced plants is a "real option" :D).

Secondly, natural grazing is more beneficial to nature than monotonous fields used to produce human food: Biodiversity of such meadows (birds, plants, flowers, insects, worms) is astronomically larger than single plant field with pesticides. (Overgrazing & industrial farming are different issues). See eg. here (http://www.agr.gc.ca/pfra/biodiversity/grazing_e.htm).

Thirdly...overall energy cost of plant diet for certain areas vastly exceeds that of a balanced diet: Consider the amount of energy & water spent importing (& growing in the first place!) fresh vegetables, rice, soybeans, fruits, etc.. to northern countries during the winter or dry areas in the summer as opposed to feeding cattle with locally harvested & stored unsuitable for human consumption plant fodder and then eating cattle & dairy products grown this way - Or even importing dense meat to aforementioned areas.

btw. According to a report on Australian(!) farm industry a tonne of meat requires 6,000-15,000 litres of water while a tonne of rice requires ~2,000 litres (world average) of water: "Only" 2-5 fold difference. Also, logically, animals do urinate a lot of the water back to the cycle.

Sources here (www.investaustralia.gov.au/media/IR_AB_MEAT.pdf) and here (http://www.urbanecology.org.au/topics/waterforrice.html)

btw2. Lack of water is a non-issue in certain places of the world.

btw3. Cattle and other ruminants are good at turning malnutritious diet (consider eg. reindeer & lichen) into a food nutritious for humans.

Where human edible crops can't grow - nutrient poor earth, climate, environment, etc.. - you can almost always grow plants that meat sources can eat around the year ('cept arctic/antarctic, where eating locally produced plants is a "real option" :D).

Secondly, natural grazing is more beneficial to nature than monotonous fields used to produce human food:....<snipped>

But we are not doing that. Vast areas of perfectly arable land are used to harvest hay and grains that are then fed to cattle (along with ground cattle remains :) ) and fattened with harmones and then we eat that as hamburgers.

I would venture a guess that the vast majority of meat in fast food places and grocery stores come this way.......than by grazing cattle in free range on land unusable for raising human-edible crops/fruits/stuff.

But we are not doing that. Vast areas of perfectly arable land are used to harvest hay and grains that are then fed to cattle (along with ground cattle remains :) ) and fattened with harmones and then we eat that as hamburgers.

I would venture a guess that the vast majority of meat in fast food places and grocery stores come this way.......than by grazing cattle in free range on land unusable for raising human-edible crops/fruits/stuff.

I like hamburgers.

I'm sure the stress of having to deal with you people drove all the men to an early grave...

The vegetarians so far have been here defending themselves against you, you are the one making a big deal out of it.

I'm a cacaovore.

Gimme chocolate.

I have to say I have been around 12-year olds too much lately.

I've been trying to ignore this post everytime I scroll past it because my mind automatically deletes the "o" and I keep mentally hearing kids screaming in laughter "caca-vore", thus ensues the inevitable snicker and the odd stares of my employees as I turn bright red on the other side of my aquarium (office with a big window looking out into the other room).

Being a mom has disadvantages...

I like hamburgers.

It shows! :rolleyes:

I like hamburgers.

I don't care.

PETA= People Eat Tasty Animals :p

anywho, i'm quite sure these companies would have a sensible reason for this, of course.

PETA= People Eat Tasty Animals :p

anywho, i'm quite sure these companies would have a sensible reason for this, of course.

Probably.

I also don't think even hardcore vegetarians are going to stop eating chocolate over a little bit of rennet. :p

Probably.

I also don't think even hardcore vegetarians are going to stop eating chocolate over a little bit of rennet. :p

those who know ;)

if i find any veggietariats eating chocolate, i might tell them :D

those who know ;)

if i find any veggietariats eating chocolate, i might tell them :D

It's only one manufacturor - there are plenty of others for us :D

I don't care.

I don't think so. Otherwise, you wouldn't've bothered...

Probably.

I also don't think even hardcore vegetarians are going to stop eating chocolate over a little bit of rennet. :pThere are Jews who don't eat certain cheeses because of the rennet thing. But there's some debate about how through the industrial process the rennet stops being of the animal and so it's all kosher again.

Where human edible crops can't grow - nutrient poor earth, climate, environment, etc.. - you can almost always grow plants that meat sources can eat around the year ('cept arctic/antarctic, where eating locally produced plants is a "real option" :D).Most places are not Antartica or the Sahara. Most land is arable, and it would therefore be wasteful to use it to graze animals.

Secondly, natural grazing is more beneficial to nature than monotonous fields used to produce human food: Biodiversity of such meadows (birds, plants, flowers, insects, worms) is astronomically larger than single plant field with pesticides. (Overgrazing & industrial farming are different issues). See eg. here (http://www.agr.gc.ca/pfra/biodiversity/grazing_e.htm).It's called a hedgerow. It is host to a huge array of various different flora and fauna. Meaning that biodiversity remains high, and prevents wind erosion.

Thirdly...overall energy cost of plant diet for certain areas vastly exceeds that of a balanced diet: Consider the amount of energy & water spent importing (& growing in the first place!) fresh vegetables, rice, soybeans, fruits, etc.. to northern countries during the winter or dry areas in the summer as opposed to feeding cattle with locally harvested & stored unsuitable for human consumption plant fodder and then eating cattle & dairy products grown this way - Or even importing dense meat to aforementioned areas.You'd think that if there was a way to store food for animal consumption for months at a time there might be a way to do it for humans too. I'm pretty sure our agarian ancestors didn't solely survive off meat during the winter. They must have had some way of preserving the food...

Also, with the development of biofuels we could setup half some land to produce crops, and the other half to produce rapeseed/maize for biofuels and it'd still be producing 5 times more food than if we just used as pasture.

btw. According to a report on Australian(!) farm industry a tonne of meat requires 6,000-15,000 litres of water while a tonne of rice requires ~2,000 litres (world average) of water: "Only" 2-5 fold difference.The math would make that closer to a 3-7.5 fold difference. Now you've also quoted the world average of usage for water in producing rice, and the australian average for producing red meat. The linky you provided says that Australian rice only needs 50% less water. That means the difference is closer to 6-15 fold. Now if we look the report you provided we also see that pasture used 32% of Australia's water demand. This means that is Australia stopped producing meat it could reduce it's water demand by up to 23%. Hardly small change for a country that frequently has to worry about droughts.Also, logically, animals do urinate a lot of the water back to the cycle.Logically, all water that is used goes back into the cycle, unless of course it was hydrolysed.

btw2. Lack of water is a non-issue in certain places of the world.Which places? Britain, a country renowned for it's relentless rain , and being surrounded by water, suffers from water scarcity. Indeed, there are reports that suggest that the largest factor in this century's wars will be water scarcity.

btw3. Cattle and other ruminants are good at turning malnutritious diet (consider eg. reindeer & lichen) into a food nutritious for humans.You already mentioned this when you talked about land not being able to produce crops. And I already mentioned that most people don't live in tundra or semi-desert areas.

But we are not doing that. Vast areas of perfectly arable land are used to harvest hay and grains that are then fed to cattle (along with ground cattle remains :) ) and fattened with harmones and then we eat that as hamburgers.Harmones? I can just imagine the conversation between two farmers.

"So Joe, what do you use to fatten your cows?", "Well Jim, someone recommended that I use harmones, but that didn't work so now I trying out playing melodies to them." :p

I don't think so. Otherwise, you wouldn't've bothered...

I meant, I don't care what you like to eat or don't like to eat. Does not concern me the slightest. You can eat crap for all I care.

Just don't tell me that crap is good for me too and I am stupid for not eating the crap you like.

It is a little weird that they would start using an animal product in chocolate production. I'm no vegetarian but it's sad I guess.

Most places are not Antartica or the Sahara. Most land is arable, and it would therefore be wasteful to use it to graze animals.In northern hemisphere there are a *plenty* of places where you can't grow crops in winter.It's called a hedgerow. It is host to a huge array of various different flora and fauna. Meaning that biodiversity remains high, and prevents wind erosion.Please, try again (http://www.landinstitute.org/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/08/23/439bd36c9acf1)You'd think that if there was a way to store food for animal consumption for months at a time there might be a way to do it for humans too.Yes, you'd think...and you can, especially grain. But there a plenty of plants you can't store or even grow in the first place in many places of the world. Consider growing fruits, fresh vegetables, grain, etc... during winter (or autumn or spring) or eating 2-3 month old tomatoes and you *really* should see my point.

On the other hand for example AIV fodder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIV_fodder) made from grass or other plant life generally too malnutritious to humans can be stored and eaten by cattle ruminants.I'm pretty sure our agarian ancestors didn't solely survive off meat during the winter. They must have had some way of preserving the food...Yes, it's called 'dried meat' :P

Up north the primary sources of food in the winter were grain based products, like bread, and various sources of meat including fish, cattle and game. Earlier, before advent of winter storage, the only sources of food were fish & game. Then there are the inuits who primarily only ate meat, all year round, because it was the only source of food available.Also, with the development of biofuels we could setup half some land to produce crops, and the other half to produce rapeseed/maize for biofuels and it'd still be producing 5 times more food than if we just used as pasture.Do you have *any* idea how much more biologically monotonous field you'd have to create - slash & burn forests, dry out swamps, artificially fertilize huge tracts of land (leading to eutrophication of water) etc.. - in order to supply plant fuel to ship plant based food from optimal farming regions to places where fresh plant food is not available? That is simply *not* healthy to the environment or the people and it would, quite literally, put 'all the eggs in one basket'.This means that is Australia stopped producing meat it could reduce it's water demand by up to 23%. Hardly small change for a country that frequently has to worry about droughts.You're missing the picture here...Australia exports a lot of their fruit & fresh vegetable crops to places like Asia and even longer by using air & ship transport. I know they also export meat also, however, consider the space needed by a ton of meat slabs and a ton of fragile tomatoes.Logically, all water that is used goes back into the cycle, unless of course it was hydrolysed.The difference is that with plants, the water goes with the fruit to a new world - On the other hand, cows in pastures urinating just improves the growth of the grass.

Mind you, I'm not a fan of industrial meat factories, in case it's not obvious. ;)Which places?Nordic countries, Canada, most rest of non-Southern Europe, jungles, huge tracts of Asia, etc..

Islands are a special problem in general because of the surrounding undrinkable sea water.You already mentioned this when you talked about land not being able to produce crops. And I already mentioned that most people don't live in tundra or semi-desert areas.No, but a lot of people live in areas where around the year supply of fresh and sufficiently nutrient rich plant food is dependent on imports, due to general dryness, dry seasons, winters and cold seasons.

Also, the amount of water needed to grow the cattle doesn't have to come in the form of rain - it can come from a river or a well without expensive irrigation & fertilization system in place, for example the nomads in Africa who depend on grazing cattle for dietary needs because there's no staple supply of 'free water' from the sky or natural nutrients in earth to support large scale farming of crops suitable for human consumption, especially the special crops that are needed to replace normally animal based vitamins & nutrients.

You must also realize that hunger very often is not an issue of not having enough food or capability to farm more food, take for example India where more than enough food to feed the people is produced...Yet there are 200 million people starving in India in 2004 (http://www.deeshaa.org/2004/06/27/hunger-in-india/) while at the same time there are 60 million tons of rice & wheat in storage and India is a huge exporter of agricultural products (5.8 billion dollars in 1998 (http://indiaonestop.com/foodprocessing.htm), including 150,000 tonnes of tea): According to wiki agricultural exports amount to 8.6% of all the exports of India.

Other famines, like in North Korea or Angola, are not triggered by lack of water or suitable land either but because of the politics and civil wars.

You're right also, where plant food is available less meat & dairy products should be consumed: Not none though, as there *are* nutritious problems with strict vegan diets, especially there where there's no access to specific plants or no knowledge about dietary needs. It's absolutely true that eating local plant food is ecologically better than eating local meat, however, eating imported fresh plant food is wholly different issue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6653175.stm

"Some of the UK's best-selling chocolate bars, such as Mars and Twix, will no longer be suitable for vegetarians.

Also affecting brands such as Snickers and Maltesers, owner Masterfoods said it had started to use animal product rennet to make its chocolate products.

Masterfoods said the change was due to it switching the sourcing of its ingredients and the admission was a "principled decision" on its part.

The Vegetarian Society said the company's move was "incomprehensible".

'Extremely disappointed'

Masterfoods said it had started using rennet from 1 May and non-affected products had a "best before date" up to 1 October."

so how many of you are going to starve to death with this bombshell? :p



More for me!


http://mobarrett.net/photos/domestic/2005/07_nyc/images/people03.jpg


http://missourifamilies.org/images/food/wmnbigchoclbar200.jpg


http://www.grandpatucker.com/images/whosaidvanilla-mindscape.gif


http://www.bbc.co.uk/slink/images/200x200/girl_eating_chocolate.jpg

Just don't tell me that crap is good for me too and I am stupid for not eating the crap you like.

Well, just don't you go tossing around wild suppositions or try putting words in my mouth, thank you very much. I didn't tell you anything like what you wrote in the quote above.

Well, just don't you go tossing around wild suppositions or try putting words in my mouth, thank you very much. I didn't tell you anything like what you wrote in the quote above.

Good . Then don't treat me like I am telling you what to do either. :)

I agree there are vegans/veggies out there who start moralising at the drop of a hat. I usually don't care what others eat...it's a personal choice and people make their choice and as long as it does not personally affect me, I don't go around moralising them.

But in NSG it is the other way. Usually it is vegetarianism that is bashed...and curiously by some who are noted for defending Islam saying that Islam should not be accused for the misdeeds of a few of its followers.

Well, the same way, vegetarianism should not be bashed because of PETA type people and extreme moralising vegans.

Is that too much to ask?

Update:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6673549.stm

Masterfoods are NOT going to change the recipe after all - their chocolate is still suitable for veggies :)

Masterfoods are NOT going to change the recipe after all - their chocolate is still suitable for veggies :)

*celebrates but is still slightly weirded out by what goes into my food*

LG? (http://www.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/chocolate_vat81806.jpg)

*celebrates but is still slightly weirded out by what goes into my food*

LG? (http://www.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/chocolate_vat81806.jpg)

err, um, ugh :(