NationStates Jolt Archive

I was thinking, what with the school boards voting to teach Creationism, those stories about kids writing disturbing stories and getting arrested, and "Zero-Tolerance" (They won't tolerate thinking, in other words) policies, what's up with all these imbeciles being involved in the education system?

Because liberal arts degree is easy and the student teaching supports stupid teachers who can entertain children for a couple hours.
Then they realize later the whole system is ass and they get burnt out from bureaucracy and low pay and pain in the ass students so they turn into despotic asshats and no one can do anything because they get tenured and can then only be removed from the position by death.

Because liberal arts degree is easy and the student teaching supports stupid teachers who can entertain children for a couple hours.
Then they realize later the whole system is ass and they get burnt out from bureaucracy and low pay and pain in the ass students so they turn into despotic asshats and no one can do anything because they get tenured and can then only be removed from the position by death.

Yeah, but not just the teachers. Principals and Vice Principals, school boards, etc.

For the same reason that imbeciles are attracted to any other type of job.

Most people are imbeciles.

QFT :p

For the same reason that imbeciles are attracted to any other type of job.

Most people are imbeciles.

Propagation? If they control education, they can make more imbeciles, right?

Well one theory I've just made up right now; let me generalize and say your average kid doesn't give a shit about their education and basically rides the system until its time to go to college. They find since they've slacked off all that time they can't go to any good name places so they pick the best party school or cheapest or easiest w/e and go there. They have had next to zero experience with any profession besides their parent's (which they hate b/c they want to be rebellious) and teaching. This because they haven't given a thought about what they were gonna do when their parents and the government pulled the rug out from underneath them. So they look for a position of safety.

And where would that be? Well they've only been exposed to it for their whole lives and have a good understanding of how it is.. Yep education. So they become teachers or Phys Ed teachers.

Just a thought.

Maybe they're not imbeciles, I guess they could just be sadists.

you have dumped quite a bit into the "imbeciles in education" barrel

the school board thing attracts fundamentalists because it seems like an easy way to get creationism into the class room. (if only we taught christianity in the classroom, no school shootings would happen and we would all be nice-nice and go to heaven) if the rest of the public doesnt notice, they have an easy time getting in by having their large co-congregations vote for them. not much turnout for schoolboard elections.

smart kids, with great apologies to our member teachers, are firmly discouraged BY TEACHERS from going into education. they tell the smart, creative kids to do anything but teaching. this leaves the lesser students (and the determined smart kids--perhaps our member teachers eh?) to be routed into education because its "easy". so we end up with far more stupid people in teaching than there should be. the good teachers get discouraged by the incompetence around them and burn out. it happens every day.

the upper levels of the education racket pay pretty well. to get there you have to start at the bottom--assistant principal. few of these people have any more classroom experience than is absolutely necessary to get certified for the job. they tend to not understand teaching and not like teaching. this makes them asses to the teachers and the children. they spend as little time as possible anywhere near kids and bring their crappy attitude to administration. it works far better when a long time teacher decides to move into administration. s/he will understand the pressures of the classroom much better than the career bureaucrats ever will.

The OP was, I think addressing the issue of evangelical conservatives with political agendas having so much influence on school boards, rather than an indictment of people (like me) who choose to work in the classroom. The answer to that original question is actually fairly simple: conservatives and ID advocates are considerably more organized about what they are doing than progressives because they place a higher emphasis on a unified front. They have a weekly meeting (at church) where they are given the strategy. Those of us who are committed to intellectual honesty quite often differ from each other, and these differences sometimes work against us because we can be portrayed as torn by internal conflict. It's pretty easy to get someone you want on the school board if hundreds of people are organized and motivated. With the right, it's part of the culture; with the left, it only happens when our outrage outweighs our desire to pick over the finer points.

Those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't even teach administrate!

I only hope the world outside school/uni has less incompetent losers and lusers!

Because it is for the most part not merit-based.

A person is hired on the basis of having some simple-to-obtain certificate, and then cannot be fired for bad performance.

It's like a company that can't really fire you and pays you whether it makes a profit or a loss, forever.

There are some great teachers of course, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Basically, it's because positions in education are made ridiculously unrewarding to anyone with any degree of talent when compared to the commercial prospects they might have in the application of that talent. "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach" is an ideology espoused by the popular media because our glorification of individual prosperity and achievement in the way we manage our trade and our application of knowledge has made it true.

Well, I'm sure part of it is that the ratio of work expected to pay received in education is such that only an idiot or a masochist would want to teach (and I say this as someone who's planning on getting her teaching certificate sometime in the next couple of years). :p

School administration, of course, pays much better and requires even less expertise, thus attracting far fewer masochists and far more idiots.

blah blah blah evangelical conservatives blah blah
Zero tolerance has nothing to do with religion. Or rather, it is not driven by religion.
And imbeciles are imbeciles, all religions.

The OP was, I think addressing the issue of evangelical conservatives with political agendas having so much influence on school boards, rather than an indictment of people (like me) who choose to work in the classroom. The answer to that original question is actually fairly simple: conservatives and ID advocates are considerably more organized about what they are doing than progressives because they place a higher emphasis on a unified front. They have a weekly meeting (at church) where they are given the strategy. Those of us who are committed to intellectual honesty quite often differ from each other, and these differences sometimes work against us because we can be portrayed as torn by internal conflict. It's pretty easy to get someone you want on the school board if hundreds of people are organized and motivated. With the right, it's part of the culture; with the left, it only happens when our outrage outweighs our desire to pick over the finer points.

Nope, it was at the entire American education system.

Hey, wait a sec - I'll become a teacher once I manage to finally get my act together to receive my diploma...

not all teachers are retards, only enough to destroy the reputation of the rest...

Because liberal arts degree is easy and the student teaching supports stupid teachers who can entertain children for a couple hours.
Then they realize later the whole system is ass and they get burnt out from bureaucracy and low pay and pain in the ass students so they turn into despotic asshats and no one can do anything because they get tenured and can then only be removed from the position by death.

:rolleyes:

Engineering, right?

:rolleyes:

Engineering, right?

hehe

Engineering. Not your ordinary BS.

You guys do know that the school boards making these decisions are either the locally elected boards or the state govenor appointed boards. The question should be why does the public keep electing imbeciles to positions in education?

You guys do know that the school boards making these decisions are either the locally elected boards or the state govenor appointed boards. The question should be why does the public keep electing imbeciles to positions in education?

When voting for a school board member do you really know their views? Unless you actually know that person you are guessing at the ballot box. This is why we get imbeciles in school board positions.

:rolleyes:

Engineering, right?

hehe

Engineering. Not your ordinary BS.

Physics! We defined masochism.

I think the anti-higher education hysteria that the right-wing hacks in the US are trying to pull has a lot to do with it, they are after all trying to make 'intellectual' into a dirty word somehow.

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.
Which is why I don't want kids.

When voting for a school board member do you really know their views? Unless you actually know that person you are guessing at the ballot box. This is why we get imbeciles in school board positions.
Or voters are just too lazy and randomly check boxes in the voting both. It's only their children's education after all. Why should they do any work and actually look at their canidates? :rolleyes:

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.
What she said!

*sigh*

You people never cease to amaze. I'm somewhat surprised Kat didn't get really really angry. And why shouldn't she? I think we've all heard, through dribs and drabs at one time or another from her and the other educators here on the forums just how challenging a career education can be. Personally, I've seen a few too many broad strokes painted on this topic, by people too inept to hold the brush properly.

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

I apoligise for almost posting in agreement to the OP. Let me give you a more accurate version of my point of view. Most educators are decent and are good teachers, however when I think of teachers I remember the amazing ones and the pathetic ones. And the bad ones truely are the biggest obsticles when trying to get a decent education. We need to increase competition in these jobs to get rid of the asshats. To do this we must improve working conditions and pay for teachers and have something from stopping over active parents from abusing and hindering them.

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

youre welcome

youre welcome

Hehehe :fluffle: You made my 5 minutes.:)

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

I didn't say everyone in education was a moron. There are good teachers, but they seem to be in a minority, sadly.

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

What she said!
ditto.
I didn't say everyone in education was a moron. There are good teachers, but they seem to be in a minority, sadly.
So you only insulted what, 90% of the profession? That is sooooo much better. Thanks for the clarification.

How, exactly, does that even come close to responding to anything Kat said?

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

Oh trust me, I've spent two weeks trying to do what you do on a day-to-day basis for the whole school year. I have respect for people who do it, buuuuutt, it's not for me. That's why I ran the other way. Crappy working conditions, for crappy pay, no thanks.

ditto.

So you only insulted what, 90% of the profession? That is sooooo much better. Thanks for the clarification.

How, exactly, does that even come close to responding to anything Kat said?

maybe he had a bad teacher? *hides*

oh, and I don't find that educational professionals are imbeciles, in fact I think 99.9% of the time they are caring people who really want to help change the world. People who love learning and want to help others succeed. I think sometimes they are disillusioned because of the craptastiK way they are treated in society, and that often they can become apathetic, but even me as "Mrs. Personal Responsibility" realizes it's not really always their fault. Teachers get a lot of crap, from kids, from parents, from tax payers, and they don't often get much in return.....I so didn't survive substitute teaching, and I only did it for about 2 years.

There are stupid people, ignorant people, rude people, and evil people in every line of work....but to single out one, like in the OP is just idiotic.

I was thinking, what with the school boards voting to teach Creationism, those stories about kids writing disturbing stories and getting arrested, and "Zero-Tolerance" (They won't tolerate thinking, in other words) policies, what's up with all these imbeciles being involved in the education system?

"First God created idiots for practise...then he created the school-board." -Mark Twain.

youre welcome

Thank you also for confirming utterly my opinion of you.

maybe he had a bad teacher? *hides*

oh, and I don't find that educational professionals are imbeciles, in fact I think 99.9% of the time they are caring people who really want to help change the world. People who love learning and want to help others succeed. I think sometimes they are disillusioned because of the craptastiK way they are treated in society, and that often they can become apathetic, but even me as "Mrs. Personal Responsibility" realizes it's not really always their fault. Teachers get a lot of crap, from kids, from parents, from tax payers, and they don't often get much in return.....I so didn't survive substitute teaching, and I only did it for about 2 years.

There are stupid people, ignorant people, rude people, and evil people in every line of work....but to single out one, like in the OP is just idiotic.We've all had bad teachers...yet most of us don't extend a bad experience or two to the entire profession.

I've also had bad doctors, dentists, sales people, servers, bartenders, etc.

We've all had bad teachers...yet most of us don't extend a bad experience or two to the entire profession.

I've also had bad doctors, dentists, sales people, servers, bartenders, etc.

I had bad students.

I had bad students.

You're a teacher?

I didn't say everyone in education was a moron. There are good teachers, but they seem to be in a minority, sadly.
Really? In my experiance most of us show a lot of dedication to our jobs and our students, sometimes to the point of insanity. Yeah, there are some very bad teachers out there, there are also some very excellent teachers.

I'd say though that most of us rank and file are here because here is where we want to be, not because we couldn't hack it anywhere else.

We've all had bad teachers...yet most of us don't extend a bad experience or two to the entire profession.

I've also had bad doctors, dentists, sales people, servers, bartenders, etc.

There are good dentists? Well, the dentists you see for 5 seconds are ok, until they are grilling you about your bad teeth while demanding you not breath because it fogs up their gay little mirror. The nurses are evil.

I had bad students.
I hear ya, thankfully I've usually had a ballance of bad students with wonderful students.

There are good dentists? Well, the dentists you see for 5 seconds are ok, until they are grilling you about your bad teeth while demanding you not breath because it fogs up their gay little mirror. The nurses are evil.

I have a good dentist......and his nurse is hawt.

Thank you also for confirming utterly my opinion of you.

oh so you have recommended teaching to your brightest students?

ive never known a teacher who has.

oh so you have recommended teaching to your brightest students?

ive never known a teacher who has.
If Kat has you now know two.

Yeah, but not just the teachers. Principals and Vice Principals, school boards, etc.

The masters in liberal arts and or education is fairly easy compared to some of the other ones as well ... at least around here (and we are known for education)

I am not saying easy just comparatively better then most of the other well known ones.

oh so you have recommended teaching to your brightest students?

ive never known a teacher who has.
You assume you're their brightest student then?

Or you expect that the brightest student has told you every intimate detail of their lives?

Intelligence isn't the only factor in being a good teacher.

If Kat has you now know two.
6, including you and Kat. 4 of my teachers told me I should be one.

The masters in liberal arts and or education is fairly easy compared to some of the other ones as well ... at least around here (and we are known for education)

I am not saying easy just comparatively better then most of the other well known ones.

Define "easy"...I know I would suffer through engineering, but I also know my engineering friends would uffer through English.

The masters in liberal arts and or education is fairly easy compared to some of the other ones as well ... at least around here (and we are known for education)

I am not saying easy just comparatively better then most of the other well known ones.
*heh* As I said to my best friend (MS, ChemE), your degree may have been harder than mine, but at least when you're working; you KNOW what goes boom and under what conditions. My work tends to go boom randomly, sometimes very interestingly, sometimes very tragicly.

You assume you're their brightest student then?

Or you expect that the brightest student has told you every intimate detail of their lives?

Intelligence isn't the only factor in being a good teacher.


6, including you and Kat. 4 of my teachers told me I should be one.

im not a student at all. im 50 years old and i have never known a teacher to recommend the job to anyone least of all the brightest students.

Define "easy"...I know I would suffer through engineering, but I also know my engineering friends would uffer through English.

I just know from one of my workers who got his masters in education and decided to go into the computer networking field (going to actually teach at a collage level is his ultimate goal)

And what I know from working with those guys

Like most things opinions are subjective

I was, along with my debate partner, recommended to go into teaching by the prof who was grading our presentation.

To be honest, I was flattered. This guy had literally spent the last half hour ripping everyone else to shreds.

And I got the A!

*heh* As I said to my best friend (MS, ChemE), your degree may have been harder than mine, but at least when you're working; you KNOW what goes boom and under what conditions. My work tends to go boom randomly, sometimes very interestingly, sometimes very tragicly.

True I don't want to make it sound easy in any way shape or form that was not my intent whatsoever I have done the teaching thing and it is not easy

And my experience is at this university only

im not a student at all. im 50 years old and i have never known a teacher to recommend the job to anyone least of all the brightest students.

Why would a teacher suggest it to a dullard? Why would a teacher suggest their own profession to a person who will do nothing but harm it?

And maybe people just didn't tell you that it had come up. It isn't like teachers stand infront of a class and scream "Oh Chris! You should be a teacher one day!"

im not a student at all. im 50 years old and i have never known a teacher to recommend the job to anyone least of all the brightest students.

Didn't you just turn 50 recently? Happy belated birthday if so. I vaguely remember you mentioning May a few weeks back.

*heh* As I said to my best friend (MS, ChemE), your degree may have been harder than mine, but at least when you're working; you KNOW what goes boom and under what conditions. My work tends to go boom randomly, sometimes very interestingly, sometimes very tragicly.
I like that. It is pretty similar to what I said to my roommate (electrical engineering). He plugs in his homework: it works or it doesn't. I can't do the same with my students and lesson plans.

True I don't want to make it sound easy in any way shape or form that was not my intent whatsoever I have done the teaching thing and it is not easy

And my experience is at this university only
Sorry, that wasn't to suggest otherwise. I was just reminded of my own college years when I roomed with one ChemE, one CS, one MechE, and one Bio. As the lone liberal arts (And education at that) I got to put up with a lot of abuse. Of course I also got to abuse them back whenever they started screaming over their problem sets and I had already put my paper to bed and was playing video games out in the living room. ;)

Sorry, that wasn't to suggest otherwise. I was just reminded of my own college years when I roomed with one ChemE, one CS, one MechE, and one Bio. As the lone liberal arts (And education at that) I got to put up with a lot of abuse. Of course I also got to abuse them back whenever they started screaming over their problem sets and I had already put my paper to bed and was playing video games out in the living room. ;)you had enough time to play video games:eek:

while my roommate works on his problem set, I'm writing my papers and passing the heck out.

Sorry, that wasn't to suggest otherwise. I was just reminded of my own college years when I roomed with one ChemE, one CS, one MechE, and one Bio. As the lone liberal arts (And education at that) I got to put up with a lot of abuse. Of course I also got to abuse them back whenever they started screaming over their problem sets and I had already put my paper to bed and was playing video games out in the living room. ;)

True some of the further stuff can be brutal ... personally I think the CS masters degree was harder then mine ... but all that calc makes me puke

Sometimes just personal preference I suppose

you had enough time to play video games:eek:

while my roommate works on his problem set, I'm writing my papers and passing the heck out.

See, that's the one thing I love about Physics. The problem sets we have are usually very short assignments. So I do that, and then generally spend the next couple of hours getting thermo off my mind, Halo style.

See, that's the one thing I love about Physics. The problem sets we have are usually very short assignments. So I do that, and then generally spend the next couple of hours getting thermo off my mind, Halo style.
Me and my roommate swapped homework for a night. I did his macroecon work, he did a short (4-5 page) paper on a poem.

He got a 90 on the homework. I had to stay up 3 extra hours re-writing my paper to make it even close to being English, let alone something I could put my name on.

Or voters are just too lazy and randomly check boxes in the voting both. It's only their children's education after all. Why should they do any work and actually look at their canidates? :rolleyes:

To be fair, school board candidates generally don't do a whole lot of campaigning outside of their own social circles. Unless you know someone who knows someone, as it were, it's rather difficult to find out any more about them than their names and political affiliation - so very little.

Here is a good example of some idiotic behavior of a few teachers. Granted the majority are good but this is a bit far and makes people wonder.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/EDUCATION/05/13/faked.attack.ap/index.html

Me and my roommate swapped homework for a night. I did his macroecon work, he did a short (4-5 page) paper on a poem.

He got a 90 on the homework. I had to stay up 3 extra hours re-writing my paper to make it even close to being English, let alone something I could put my name on.

Ouch. I had an 8 page research paper on a biography of John Adams by David McCullough that I had to write. Took me 3 hours, plus an hour to round out the citations (we needed a total of 8 sources). Didn't get anyone else to proof it, handed it in, got the A.

I don't know what it is, but it's not as if everyone in a science or engineering field sucks at writing.

To be fair, school board candidates generally don't do a whole lot of campaigning outside of their own social circles. Unless you know someone who knows someone, as it were, it's rather difficult to find out any more about them than their names and political affiliation - so very little.
I'm sorry, Dempublicents, but I don't think that holds true. I mean, if I can find out about the choices I had last election for my school board (Said board being in a small city of 50,000 people) and I'm in Japan, 5,000 miles away...

Yeah, it's not like they are out there with the snazzy campain flyers and such, but there IS information on them at the local County/City Clerk's office, the local paper, voting guides, and the Internet.

True some of the further stuff can be brutal ... personally I think the CS masters degree was harder then mine ... but all that calc makes me puke

Sometimes just personal preference I suppose
Yup. It's that unknown element that makes teaching exciting (at least for me), but when you like the notion of things following set patterns...

That being said, I don't knock my eng and sci friends. They do work hard and I'm enough of a geek to be in awe of what they can do.

To help the educational system and its effects on the students, I believe that we should work together as a society to focus more on the individual.

Jokes aside, I'm actually home schooled, and have never had to spend a day in a school. The reason my mom gave me was "I remember being very bored in school, and I didn't want you to have to go through that." Turns out that my mom has ADD, so I guess that explains why she was bored.

However, to be honest, from the people I've talked to in the public school system... They're not that bright. Maybe it's chance that I meet the dregs of the school, but they generally seem more excited about friends, cellphones, and video games than history, and how it impacts our lives even today, or the great works and how well it can express your feelings, or the scientific theories that explain our universe.

And, to be honest, they're not that fun to talk to.

Something is wrong with that. I think the public school system needs to change that, and produce intelligent, hard working individuals with strong moral standing, courage, respect, open-mindedness, and courage. (Although that won't happen ever, at least a few of those would be nice, at least open minded and hard-working, because those traits will quickly lead you to intelligence.)

My ideas to do that would be to put more emphasis on the occupation of a teacher. More pay and benefits is a great idea, but also there's a cultural problem. People are generally under the influence of "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." Which is pretty stupid, vague, and has absolutely no logic or basis behind it. (Of course, the saying in my signature could probably have the same said about it, but ANYWAYS...) The retort I give to that is to look at musicians. A lot of musicians teach, but only the really good ones teach.

Rostropovich (R.I.P, btw)? Casals? Perlman? All greats of their instruments, and they also taught. The ones who can only play "Home on the Range" are not the teachers of musical instruments are not the ones who teach! To be so vague as "Those who can, do" makes it easily proven wrong.

I'm not sure how it works out with the public school system, of course (I went on a little bit of off-topic rant on that stupid saying - O, it makes my blood boil!) but anyway...

People just don't value the teacher enough, thinking that it's valueless, and only stupid people do it, and then do it badly. They're very apathetic! (Like Ashmoria.) I think that's silly, because the teachers equip the future generation. Does that not seem important to you? Should we leave our future to a bunch of idiots who only become teachers because they're too incompetent for a different, more important job? (Not saying they are, just stating the other view point.) No, we shouldn't. Children are an extremely important part of human society, and all of them should have the best damn education they can get. They're going to be the one's who will take control of our countries in the next twenty or so years, and they had better be smart enough to do it right.

I think I've ranted enough, good night.

I'll take a stab at replying to Kat since no one else did... Just to be devil's advocate.
I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession

No one was insulting you specifically, unless you have reason to believe the OP is an old student of yours. As for your profession, I'm sure you have met your own fair share of idiots teaching...

of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain

I dont know about your state but I know a good many people becoming teachers here in California. Here, basically, after you get either a liberal arts degree (for elementary school teachers) or a normal bachelors (for high school teachers), you have a one year study course (at a university) to get a credential. After which you pass an exam and you can work as a teacher.

Hell, you dont even need that to be a substitute teacher, just having a bachelors and passing an even easier exam gets you that. (seriously, the test for being a substitute teacher is practically at an 8th grade level.

of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it

Practically any (intellectual) job requires you to keep up on anything new that might have developed since you finished school. Thats a damn good thing, because otherwise you might end up with something like my anatomy professor, who lectures off the same notes she made a dozen years ago and often contradicts the textbook.

I'm sorry if your job doesnt subsidize your continued education, maybe thats something your all-powerful union should look into doing... but I'm sure you're not the only profession to have that disadvantage.

for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching,

I dont know about where you went to school, but here the average GPA for a liberal arts student is well about a 3.0, while for an engineering or science student its nowhere near one. Now this can mean one of two things... either the most intelligent people become elementary school teachers, or the classes are easy as shit. I know quite a few liberal arts students, i've seen there classwork, its nowhere near as difficult as the shit my EE friends have to put up with.

Also, the reason people say this is probably because the most skilled are more often going to go in to practicing things themselves, rather than teaching. College professors are often at the top of their profession, but high school teachers? they are the ones who either couldnt or didnt want to make it. Now, they could just love teaching, but I dont honestly think those truly motivated teachers are in the majority.

and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid

You don't get paid as much as you deserve, but you also have the most amazing job security I can think of. Tenure for K-12 teachers is ridiculous, as well as the unions absolute hatred of merit pay. (my government teacher explained it thusly: the unions dont allow good teachers to get extra raises, because that would mean the administrators determine who get raises... OMG! thats horrible) Automatic pay scales combined with tenure is a benefit few outside of teaching and the rest of the civil service system enjoy.

for being educators shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

Personally I think a teacher should be responsible for making sure information goes from his mouth into the student's head. Thats about it. Dealing with any drama that disrupts the process would make sense, but only to a limited degree. Of course, there are lazy parents, but thats not *my* fault is it?

Really? In my experiance most of us show a lot of dedication to our jobs and our students, sometimes to the point of insanity. Yeah, there are some very bad teachers out there, there are also some very excellent teachers.

I'd say though that most of us rank and file are here because here is where we want to be, not because we couldn't hack it anywhere else.
hmmm, for some reason, the good teachers are always in other classes, with few exceptions. These are my lowlights:

*Not being able/caring enough to make the class be quiet enough so we could hear them
*repeatedly insulting the class or single students.
*being unable to explain things
*having no current knowledge on the subject you are teaching and freely admitting that.
*correcting tests and exams in the metro
*having no clue about the subject thus turning the class into a farce (computer science techers only teaching program usage)
*being unable to remember a 4 letter password, which is a real word, instead calling me from my class every monday
*when the system is changed, being unable to type a 6 letter username and password WHICH BOTH WAS HER LAST NAME and still calling me from class
*never ever make a new test, instead use copy shake and paste from older ones (those are my parents, thus I know)
*never being able to meet basic requirements as punctuality. This means she told me to meet her next break, then not was not there. I gave her the benefit of the doubt and waited the next breaks there - she was absent. When I met her after a week she forgot what it was about (she was not my regular teacher but had to make an extracurricular activity count)
*telling the answers to questions during the exam (we had to define certain terms, $recklessfreak just asked for them one by one to the teacher supervising us).

I'll take a stab at replying to Kat since no one else did... Just to be devil's advocate.
And I'll reply since Kat is probably sleeping the sleep of the just and very tired.

No one was insulting you specifically, unless you have reason to believe the OP is an old student of yours. As for your profession, I'm sure you have met your own fair share of idiots teaching...
Share, yes; however the OP seems to be claiming all, or the majority of, teachers. This wouldn't be the first time on NSG that this has happened.

I dont know about your state but I know a good many people becoming teachers here in California. Here, basically, after you get either a liberal arts degree (for elementary school teachers) or a normal bachelors (for high school teachers), you have a one year study course (at a university) to get a credential. After which you pass an exam and you can work as a teacher.

Hell, you dont even need that to be a substitute teacher, just having a bachelors and passing an even easier exam gets you that. (seriously, the test for being a substitute teacher is practically at an 8th grade level.
Doesn't take into account your student teaching period (also known as slave labor as it's a half a year of teaching live and kicking (hard) classes that not only are you not paid for, but you are paying for). Still, for a full teacher, given the average college range is 5 years, Kat's math is right for a fresh out the gate BA teacher.

Practically any (intellectual) job requires you to keep up on anything new that might have developed since you finished school. Thats a damn good thing, because otherwise you might end up with something like my anatomy professor, who lectures off the same notes she made a dozen years ago and often contradicts the textbook.

I'm sorry if your job doesnt subsidize your continued education, maybe thats something your all-powerful union should look into doing... but I'm sure you're not the only profession to have that disadvantage.
Are you required to not only have a number of in-service education days a year but be activly working on an advanced degree? That's the difference, a lot of states have requirements that in service teachers MUST be working towards their masters and carry a certain number of credits each year (It's what we do in the summer) and earn said degree by a certain time after being hired.

I dont know about where you went to school, but here the average GPA for a liberal arts student is well about a 3.0, while for an engineering or science student its nowhere near one. Now this can mean one of two things... either the most intelligent people become elementary school teachers, or the classes are easy as shit. I know quite a few liberal arts students, i've seen there classwork, its nowhere near as difficult as the shit my EE friends have to put up with.
Write me a paper and we'll talk.

Seriously, it's two different subjects and EE is a lot of just remembering and spitting stuff out. Liberal arts is a hell of a lot more subjective, something that can be rather frustrating at times (Especially when dealing with humans who don't follow the rules most of the time and treat the theory you just learned as a guideline). I've found that a number of the eng folks get just as frustrated when they come over and try to do my work as I get when I try to do theirs.

Also, the reason people say this is probably because the most skilled are more often going to go in to practicing things themselves, rather than teaching. College professors are often at the top of their profession, but high school teachers? they are the ones who either couldnt or didnt want to make it. Now, they could just love teaching, but I dont honestly think those truly motivated teachers are in the majority.
Gee, thank you SO much for telling me that. Yes, you're right, that is the dirty secret. I became a teacher because I couldn't make it at all in the highly compedative field of English. It has nothing at all to do with love of teaching and wanting to reach children and help them. Hell, every single one of my 38 co-workers are just sitting here in the teacher's room working our asses off from 7:30 (Or earlier) in the bloody morning till well after dark, including weekends, for little pay and disrespect because we're so goddamn lazy we just couldn't actually make it anywhere else.

Yup, you certainly nailed it on the head.

You don't get paid as much as you deserve, but you also have the most amazing job security I can think of. Tenure for K-12 teachers is ridiculous, as well as the unions absolute hatred of merit pay. (my government teacher explained it thusly: the unions dont allow good teachers to get extra raises, because that would mean the administrators determine who get raises... OMG! thats horrible) Automatic pay scales combined with tenure is a benefit few outside of teaching and the rest of the civil service system enjoy.
Tenure, which has multiple problems with it, is a legacy of how the teaching profession developed. It's still in use namely because for someone with as much education and experiance as we do have, we don't get paid well. That, and it keeps parents from getting teachers fired because they failed their darling child.

And I'll embrace merit pay just as soon as someone comes up with a way to measure merit that isn't a standardized test.

Personally I think a teacher should be responsible for making sure information goes from his mouth into the student's head. Thats about it. Dealing with any drama that disrupts the process would make sense, but only to a limited degree. Of course, there are lazy parents, but thats not *my* fault is it?
It would be nice, but, sadly, babysitting seems to be embeded in the job description now.

hmmm, for some reason, the good teachers are always in other classes, with few exceptions. These are my lowlights:

*Not being able/caring enough to make the class be quiet enough so we could hear them
Question, how would you quiet them? Teacher burn out is a very serious and real problem because we lose over half the new teachers each year. That being said, how do you quiet a class?

*correcting tests and exams in the metro
I hate to tell you this, but that's a time issue. There's just not enough hours in the contracted work day to get all that correcting done. I've hauled papers home for correcting many a time (much to the annoyance of my wife who has to give up the table for me) and I remember the mother of a friend bringing her classes' papers to her daughter's softball game to correct because that was the only time she had.

*having no clue about the subject thus turning the class into a farce (computer science techers only teaching program usage)
*being unable to remember a 4 letter password, which is a real word, instead calling me from my class every monday
*when the system is changed, being unable to type a 6 letter username and password WHICH BOTH WAS HER LAST NAME and still calling me from class
I'd be impressed except that I worked at a help desk and know that you'll find those people no matter where you go.

*never ever make a new test, instead use copy shake and paste from older ones (those are my parents, thus I know)
And?

*never being able to meet basic requirements as punctuality. This means she told me to meet her next break, then not was not there. I gave her the benefit of the doubt and waited the next breaks there - she was absent. When I met her after a week she forgot what it was about (she was not my regular teacher but had to make an extracurricular activity count)
And? I've met many a person like that outside of the education field.

*telling the answers to questions during the exam (we had to define certain terms, $recklessfreak just asked for them one by one to the teacher supervising us).
That one I agree with is inexcuseable.

ditto.
So you only insulted what, 90% of the profession? That is sooooo much better. Thanks for the clarification.


I would call it blantant bias. To say that someones legitimate job determines their probable intelligence is as disguesting as it is ignorant.

I didn't say everyone in education was a moron. There are good teachers, but they seem to be in a minority, sadly.

Next we'll be hearing that there are good blacks, "but they seem to be a minority". :rolleyes:

-snip-
I stand by what I said. Disregard in our society for those in education has become institutional, whether we agree with it or otherwise. Academia is fundamentally at odds with economics, and for this it has been shunned by a political environment that favours success in the latter over success in the former. It is not that only stupid people are teachers, but it is the case that many talented individuals have been tempted away from it by a combination of the relative rewards to be gained in commerce and the common meme that Education is not a rewarding way of life.

If you want better teachers, then offer better pay, better working conditions, more competition and actually fire some of the lazier and bad ones.

Question, how would you quiet them? Teacher burn out is a very serious and real problem because we lose over half the new teachers each year. That being said, how do you quiet a class?
Make it have consequences. If people constantly disrupt classes of A, they'd get a 5 and therefore not do it in that amount. If they do it for B, they'd get what they'd normally get: a 1 or a 2, that hardly makes them change a thing.


I hate to tell you this, but that's a time issue. There's just not enough hours in the contracted work day to get all that correcting done. I've hauled papers home for correcting many a time (much to the annoyance of my wife who has to give up the table for me) and I remember the mother of a friend bringing her classes' papers to her daughter's softball game to correct because that was the only time she had.
Being teacher in Germany is a half-day work, school here usually ends at 13:20.


I'd be impressed except that I worked at a help desk and know that you'll find those people no matter where you go.
How can such people make any sort of profit for a company except when working at an assembly line? How can students learn anything from them? I did not. If I had the chance to go to the library, I'd learn far more.


And?

It just bugged me that they spend more time selecting the cliparts than making the actual test, that's all.

And? I've met many a person like that outside of the education field.
Those were not the topic here. I always wanted to scream at that person until I lose my voice! Depending on unreliable persons sucks!

That one I agree with is inexcuseable.
As is IMHO to call us hobos and tell us that we all will work at ALDI soon and are stupid.

The answer to everything is chewable valium.

The answer to everything is chewable valium.

Great, teachers that are so high that they have no qualms with demonstrating how to mix some voile and dangerous chemicals, or shop teachers who'll try to play that knife game.

Make it have consequences. If people constantly disrupt classes of A, they'd get a 5 and therefore not do it in that amount. If they do it for B, they'd get what they'd normally get: a 1 or a 2, that hardly makes them change a thing.
And when you have students who do not give a whoop in hell about their grades?

Being teacher in Germany is a half-day work, school here usually ends at 13:20.
That is when you get out of school, that is not necessarily when the teachers get out of school. Theoretically my contract states a day that lasts from 8:30 to 4, Mon-Fri with one hour break that I can do with as I will. Reality though is very different.

How can such people make any sort of profit for a company except when working at an assembly line? How can students learn anything from them? I did not. If I had the chance to go to the library, I'd learn far more.
We're in need of computer teachers, nothing new about that. But my point being that I've known geologists who have called me with the same problems that you're complaining about.

It just bugged me that they spend more time selecting the cliparts than making the actual test, that's all.
If the old tests are good, why not just mix and match them up? Every teacher's tool kit is like that, that's why we have desks and bookshelves stuffed full of old lessons that worked so we can take them apart and re-make them later since it saves us time.

And I'll reply since Kat is probably sleeping the sleep of the just and very tired.

You are quite well informed, so its as good as Kat herself.


Share, yes; however the OP seems to be claiming all, or the majority of, teachers. This wouldn't be the first time on NSG that this has happened.


Maybe just a majority of the teachers the OP has encountered arent the brightest bulbs around. I have no idea what is going on in his/her head.

Doesn't take into account your student teaching period (also known as slave labor as it's a half a year of teaching live and kicking (hard) classes that not only are you not paid for, but you are paying for).

I asked a friend of mine who is going to be finishing his credential fairly soon. The student teaching can be done during the year you are getting your credential, which means you are still a full teacher one year after you get your bachelors. He's doing it, and knows other people who had, though he does admit you can (alternatively) do an internship instead.

Still, for a full teacher, given the average college range is 5 years, Kat's math is right for a fresh out the gate BA teacher.

Aye, 5 years+1 does equal the six years that was the *low end* of Kat's statement. But one could finish a bachelors in less than that. A different acquaintance of mine (extremely smart woman), came in to college with a ton of APs and even some community college credit she finished while in high school. She's graduating next week after 2 years in actual college with a degree in history. So, one could say you could become a teacher in 3 years of training... but thats the minority of cases anyway. So yeah, I'll agree with the 6 years of training (on average), but if we use the numbers that are higher than average to get the other part of the scale we should use the lower than average ones too. So either say 6 years to become a teacher, or say 3-9.


Are you required to not only have a number of in-service education days a year but be activly working on an advanced degree? That's the difference, a lot of states have requirements that in service teachers MUST be working towards their masters and carry a certain number of credits each year (It's what we do in the summer) and earn said degree by a certain time after being hired.


Haven't heard this, is California one of those states? I'm fairly certain a masters here nets a teacher some sort of pay raise, but no idea if they have to get it... I'll be sure and ask someone. I know for certain that lawyers, doctors, accountants, and a wide variety of other professionals have to keep their education up, though more by attending conferences and reading books than going to classes.

Write me a paper and we'll talk.

Seriously, it's two different subjects and EE is a lot of just remembering and spitting stuff out. Liberal arts is a hell of a lot more subjective, something that can be rather frustrating at times (Especially when dealing with humans who don't follow the rules most of the time and treat the theory you just learned as a guideline). I've found that a number of the eng folks get just as frustrated when they come over and try to do my work as I get when I try to do theirs.

I can write you a paper any time. I'm a Chemistry student, but I've taken my fair share of English courses, including several at the college level. Hell, I'm taking British literature this semester (medical schools want multiple college level English courses), and my writing is no worse than any of the multitude of English majors in that class, the majority of whom are studying for their "English credential" (i.e. to teach high school English). Trust me, I've peer reviewed enough papers to tell you that.

As for liberal arts being more subjective, thats one of the reasons why I consider it far easier. When the answer is black or white, the reaction either happened or it didnt, you must *know* the material. When you can just bullshit an answer up, and as long as you remain coherent and manage to regurgitate some viewpoint the instructor portrayed to the class, its far easier. I always found essay questions for something like a humanities class a joke, especially if the teacher allowed you to use the work during the exam as a reference.

Gee, thank you SO much for telling me that. Yes, you're right, that is the dirty secret. I became a teacher because I couldn't make it at all in the highly compedative field of English. It has nothing at all to do with love of teaching and wanting to reach children and help them. Hell, every single one of my 38 co-workers are just sitting here in the teacher's room working our asses off from 7:30 (Or earlier) in the bloody morning till well after dark, including weekends, for little pay and disrespect because we're so goddamn lazy we just couldn't actually make it anywhere else.

Yup, you certainly nailed it on the head.

I was thinking more of the sciences teachers than English ones when I said that they probably couldn't make it in an alternate workplace, or didn't want to. Like I said in my initial post, it is of course possible that there are many teachers out there who just love imparting knowledge, but there are others who just want a safe job. As the song goes, what else are you going to do with a B.A. in English?

Tenure, which has multiple problems with it, is a legacy of how the teaching profession developed. It's still in use namely because for someone with as much education and experiance as we do have, we don't get paid well. That, and it keeps parents from getting teachers fired because they failed their darling child.

The thing is, its about as hard to fire an incompetent (tenured) teacher as it is to impeach a senile federal judge (i.e. practically impossible). In universities tenure serves as protection of a professors intellectual freedom to do research. In a high school? Not so much. A teacher is more of a salaried employee that should be evaluated on performance like in any other institution. (which leads into the next point...)


And I'll embrace merit pay just as soon as someone comes up with a way to measure merit that isn't a standardized test.
I honestly don't know. I can tell you, having taken a class, whether or not I believe the teacher is a good one. At my university we all fill out evaluations of our teacher (that he doesnt see till after grades are in) at the end of the semester. Also, other professors often come in at a random class period and sit in on a lecture (often the chair of the department is the one who does this). Obviously, no one measure can show whether or not a teacher is good, but theres a difference between someone whos students all pass but dont know the material, someone whos students all fail and dont know the material, and someone whos students work, and the ones who pass *do* know the material.

It would be nice, but, sadly, babysitting seems to be embeded in the job description now.

Sending an unruly child to the office (or home) was what teachers did when I was in elementary school, and I don't know what else one could do, since I'm fairly certain corporal punishment is illegal :-p

... However, to be honest, from the people I've talked to in the public school system... They're not that bright. Maybe it's chance that I meet the dregs of the school, but they generally seem more excited about friends, cellphones, and video games than history, and how it impacts our lives even today, or the great works and how well it can express your feelings, or the scientific theories that explain our universe. ...That goes for most people. I'd guess (though I can't know for sure) that much of the difference comes from you being somewhat of a more nerdy kind of person by nature. People in general are obsessive-compulsive socialisers with no actual depth of interest in things save those that come with human nature and their culture.

Not that I, though a very strongly introverted nerd, have much interest in history or classic "great works" myself. When you are force-fed large streams of bland, uninteresting data and made to chew it until you memorize enough until after the coming tests are passed, your mind gagging in the process, you don't become very enthusiastic about the subjects in question. Heh; my memory of what exactly I've studied in most subjects is quite hazy. Along with my overall memory of the school years thus far. Not much of a loss, though.

I have a few very strong interests, though, and have self-studied and practiced those - particularly programming - to a point many years ahead of where I am in my education right now. (hopefully going through a university education in the near future in order to get those fancy papers that - unlike the knowledge itself - are what gives you the working opportunity won't be too much of a pain, though. I face a lot of redundant information crunching, I fear. but atleast, this time, a fair share will be of interest) When I have a strong interest in something, my memory is exceptional. An intersting education would probably have left me with atleast thrice as much learned by now.

And when you have students who do not give a whoop in hell about their grades?

then teachers do have other measures from entries in the Klassenbuch to informing the parents, the other teachers in school just demonstrated some authority and it helped. He just ... I think did not care...


That is when you get out of school, that is not necessarily when the teachers get out of school. Theoretically my contract states a day that lasts from 8:30 to 4, Mon-Fri with one hour break that I can do with as I will. Reality though is very different.
My parents are teachers, I know that there are a lot of worthless conferences, but most of the time, my parents are home at like 15:15 and that only because they had quite a way.


We're in need of computer teachers, nothing new about that. But my point being that I've known geologists who have called me with the same problems that you're complaining about.
A geologist who fails to remember to type his own name twice also ought not to be a teacher. It's his OWN NAME! I even asked him to leave class and explained this person only to be called again next week. If this guy is unable to adapt to change, it is indicating a certain inability to teach anything which happened after he left uni.


If the old tests are good, why not just mix and match them up? Every teacher's tool kit is like that, that's why we have desks and bookshelves stuffed full of old lessons that worked so we can take them apart and re-make them later since it saves us time.
I think either they are not or they can't explain or they exaggerate to me how tough they are but when I hear they fail 50% of the class and neither change their test nor their lessons. Take maths for example: I always hated it if teachers used i and j because I couldn't distinguish between them as indices despite sitting in the first row. I think a lot of tutoring could have been unnecessary if they adapted their indices and their writing to the complaints of the class and made things more clearly. but this does not happen...

Because liberal arts degree is easy and the student teaching supports stupid teachers who can entertain children for a couple hours.
Then they realize later the whole system is ass and they get burnt out from bureaucracy and low pay and pain in the ass students so they turn into despotic asshats and no one can do anything because they get tenured and can then only be removed from the position by death.

Ummm--you don't get to teach in the US based on a Liberal arts degree. You're talking about an Education degree there. If you get a Liberal Arts degree, you still have to get an alternative certification in most states, and that involves Education classes.

I'm just saying--don't blame us Liberal Arts people.

I'm sorry, Dempublicents, but I don't think that holds true. I mean, if I can find out about the choices I had last election for my school board (Said board being in a small city of 50,000 people) and I'm in Japan, 5,000 miles away...

Yeah, it's not like they are out there with the snazzy campain flyers and such, but there IS information on them at the local County/City Clerk's office, the local paper, voting guides, and the Internet.

What type of information? I have tried to find information on school board candidates and found pretty much nothing. In my experience, the more local a position gets, the less likely you are to find much information on candidates or their stances.

Ummm--you don't get to teach in the US based on a Liberal arts degree. You're talking about an Education degree there. If you get a Liberal Arts degree, you still have to get an alternative certification in most states, and that involves Education classes.

I'm just saying--don't blame us Liberal Arts people.

In some cases, a person can begin teaching before getting any type of teaching certification. In my state, for instance, a person with a bachelor's in math or science (I know these for sure, I'm not sure about history, English, etc.), can begin teaching straight immediately if her GPA was high enough. I believe she gets about two years in which to get her teaching certification - but she can be a full-time teacher while doing so - before any actual teaching classes have been taken.

What type of information? I have tried to find information on school board candidates and found pretty much nothing. In my experience, the more local a position gets, the less likely you are to find much information on candidates or their stances.
For the two who were running in my ward I found out their position on the school bonds issue, what they thought needed to be changed, why they would make good board members, their experience, and so on.

In some cases, a person can begin teaching before getting any type of teaching certification. In my state, for instance, a person with a bachelor's in math or science (I know these for sure, I'm not sure about history, English, etc.), can begin teaching straight immediately if her GPA was high enough. I believe she gets about two years in which to get her teaching certification - but she can be a full-time teacher while doing so - before any actual teaching classes have been taken.

I imagine with a growing trend (at least in my area) of "alternative paths to licensure", we'll see more and more teachers without a lot of formal pedagogy.

I don't have the long teaching experience to know if that's good or bad (or a little of both).

In high need areas (math, science, SpEd), I think some districts are faced with a situation of "this or nobody", at least with the budgets they have.

For the two who were running in my ward I found out their position on the school bonds issue, what they thought needed to be changed, why they would make good board members, their experience, and so on.

Maybe your area is just better about these things. I'm lucky if I can even find a list of names of all the candidates (or even of all the elections being carried out) before I see them on the ballot.

Maybe your area is just better about these things. I'm lucky if I can even find a list of names of all the candidates (or even of all the elections being carried out) before I see them on the ballot.

Most elections will, at least, have a Voter's Guide sent out which will provide a bit of information from each campaign. It isn't the best info, but it can usually get you basic policy information. The other thing that will get you the most information is connections within the community. In a suburb, in my experience, the best way to find out about a candidate for School Board is to ask an officer in the local PTSA. Contacting campaigns can also get you information on the candidates. Local Media should carry some information on the election.

I was thinking, what with the school boards voting to teach Creationism, those stories about kids writing disturbing stories and getting arrested, and "Zero-Tolerance" (They won't tolerate thinking, in other words) policies, what's up with all these imbeciles being involved in the education system?

If you could answer this one I think you would reach Buddhist enlightenment!;)

Most elections will, at least, have a Voter's Guide sent out which will provide a bit of information from each campaign. It isn't the best info, but it can usually get you basic policy information.

Sent out to whom? Some individual candidates send out postcards and the like, but I have never in my life seen any kind of "Voter's Guide."

The other thing that will get you the most information is connections within the community. In a suburb, in my experience, the best way to find out about a candidate for School Board is to ask an officer in the local PTSA.

Unfortunately, I work all the time. The closest thing I have to "connections in the community" is the occasional few sentences with a neighbor when I'm walking my dog or we just happen to come home at the same time.

When I still voted in the same district where I went to school, voting for the school board could have been easier. I knew who most of the candidates were - having been through the school system. Of course, since only poor teachers who were a bit senile seemed to run....

Contacting campaigns can also get you information on the candidates.

Yes, but you have to know who they are first. GA, in general seems to make it as difficult as possible just to get a list of the elections and candidates going on. Even the secretary of state website is ridiculous. It has plenty of information on how to register to vote, but you have to dig and search to find any actual election information - even in the weeks before a major election.

Local Media should carry some information on the election.

Indeed. But most people don't read the newspaper anymore (including me) - at least not on a regular basis. And I don't watch TV, so I'm screwed in that count. Of course, the TV rarely, if ever, carries ads for positions like school board unless you live in a pretty major city area.

Most of the time, despite spending as much time as I can researching the election and the candidates, I end up seeing things on the ballot (either actual elections or a local referendum or two) that I had no idea would be there. And since little to no information on either is ever presented at the polling place, I either have to not vote or make a guess...

Sent out to whom? Some individual candidates send out postcards and the like, but I have never in my life seen any kind of "Voter's Guide."

Really? It could just be a statewide thing, then. Locally, every candidate/possible vote on a Refferendum/Initiative gets some space to explain why you should vote for them in a little Voter's Guide that gets sent out for every major local election. Like I said, not the most reliable information in total, but good for getting a sense of policy stances.

Unfortunately, I work all the time. The closest thing I have to "connections in the community" is the occasional few sentences with a neighbor when I'm walking my dog or we just happen to come home at the same time.

When I still voted in the same district where I went to school, voting for the school board could have been easier. I knew who most of the candidates were - having been through the school system. Of course, since only poor teachers who were a bit senile seemed to run....

I can't help with that one. There could also be interest groups (once again, the PTSA is a good example) publications that you might find.

Indeed. But most people don't read the newspaper anymore (including me) - at least not on a regular basis. And I don't watch TV, so I'm screwed in that count. Of course, the TV rarely, if ever, carries ads for positions like school board unless you live in a pretty major city area.

Most of the time, despite spending as much time as I can researching the election and the candidates, I end up seeing things on the ballot (either actual elections or a local referendum or two) that I had no idea would be there. And since little to no information on either is ever presented at the polling place, I either have to not vote or make a guess...

Do you have a town newspaper? Or a town online journal? Does your city have a website? All of those could be places to get more information.

Because liberal arts degree is easy and the student teaching supports stupid teachers who can entertain children for a couple hours.
Then they realize later the whole system is ass and they get burnt out from bureaucracy and low pay and pain in the ass students so they turn into despotic asshats and no one can do anything because they get tenured and can then only be removed from the position by death.

The same could be said of any job in the government bureaucracy.

If you want to see people dumber and far less motivated than the average teacher, just find a Federal government employee.

We in the consulting business openly refer to them as "mouthbreathers".

Really? It could just be a statewide thing, then. Locally, every candidate/possible vote on a Refferendum/Initiative gets some space to explain why you should vote for them in a little Voter's Guide that gets sent out for every major local election. Like I said, not the most reliable information in total, but good for getting a sense of policy stances.

It would be nice to have.

Do you have a town newspaper? Or a town online journal? Does your city have a website? All of those could be places to get more information.

I'm sure there's a newspaper, but I don't subscribe and wouldn't know where to get one - if I even knew when they might be printing the information. There is a county website, but it has very little information on it. Last time I tried to look for election information, I found the candidates from an election 2 years prior to the one I was looking for, but nothing current. I'm sure I could call the county courthouse or something and get some information, but I tend to try and look up candidates and the like on my own time, which means it's after hours.

It just seems like getting the information is so damn inconvenient, and I only have a limited time in which to do it.

I was thinking, what with the school boards voting to teach Creationism, those stories about kids writing disturbing stories and getting arrested, and "Zero-Tolerance" (They won't tolerate thinking, in other words) policies, what's up with all these imbeciles being involved in the education system?

well i don't know what its like in the US. But based on my experience with studying in the UK, switzerland and spain all i can say is for the most part my teachers have been educated, helpful and willing to listen to opposing viewsl ideas and such.

There might be a clash of personalities, some might be willing to try a little harder with the students, but all in all the pros outweigh the cons.

the worst teacher i had (from memory) was when i was 14. my IT teacher, but thats because i knew more than him. and he was a pompous prat.

all i know really though is looking back, I see most of my teachers in a positive light. and that seems to be what counts

I'd just like to tell all of you from the bottom of my heart: thank you so much for your utter disrespect of me and my profession, of the "easy" certification that takes from six to nine years of college to attain, of the education we have to pay for on our own instead of having our jobs subsidize it, for your obnoxious bullshit about those who can't, teaching, and for the whinging about how much(!) we get paid for being educators, shoulders to cry on, child care specialists, entertainers, baby sitters, child care advocates, substitute parents, and general punching bags for people too lazy and selfish to ever try to spend one week doing what we do.

...just in case there was any misunderstanding of my post, I have nothing but respect for the overwhelming majority of teachers. I thought the question regarded those tiny minority who were idiots; it didn't even occur to me that it might be suggesting that most teachers are idiots. (And, as I said, I do think a great many administrators are idiots, and, almost without exception, the ones who aren't idiots started out as teachers rather than administrators.) I joke that one has to be a masochist to be a teacher largely because I'm planning on going into education myself, and it sounds a bit vain to say that one has to be absurdly dedicated, selfless, and willing to be treated like crap for a good cause to be a teacher.

hmmm, for some reason, the good teachers are always in other classes, with few exceptions. These are my lowlights:

*correcting tests and exams in the metro


...huh? What on earth is wrong with that?

Propagation? If they control education, they can make more imbeciles, right?

Holy shit! Imbeciles are actually very large, walking retroviruses!

Because it is for the most part not merit-based.

A person is hired on the basis of having some simple-to-obtain certificate, and then cannot be fired for bad performance.

It's like a company that can't really fire you and pays you whether it makes a profit or a loss, forever.

There are some great teachers of course, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Oh, so you have one, then? You know how "easy" they are to obtain because you HAVE one, then? :rolleyes:

im not a student at all. im 50 years old and i have never known a teacher to recommend the job to anyone least of all the brightest students.

And of course, you've met every teacher on the planet. :rolleyes:

Hell, I doubt you've met every teacher in any one school and asked them if they recommend teaching. You were obviously a poor student who was not paying attention during the "sweeping generalizations make you look really, really stupid" lesson.

I just hope that no-one comes to the conclusion that all in the education service are imbeciles.
I plan on becoming a university lecturer.

Also, the only imbecilic teachers I've had trouble with have been my R.E. teacher and some P.E. teachers.

I was thinking, what with the school boards voting to teach Creationism, those stories about kids writing disturbing stories and getting arrested, and "Zero-Tolerance" (They won't tolerate thinking, in other words) policies, what's up with all these imbeciles being involved in the education system?
Desire to control people. It's much easier to control people if you keep them stupid. It's much easier to victimize people with less power than you. Children are easy targets, and if you keep them stupid then they will eventually grow up and help you control and abuse the next generation.

Desire to control people. It's much easier to control people if you keep them stupid. It's much easier to victimize people with less power than you. Children are easy targets, and if you keep them stupid then they will eventually grow up and help you control and abuse the next generation.

Even without that, the public school system appears to be doing an excellent job of promoting ignorance.

Even without that, the public school system appears to be doing an excellent job of promoting ignorance.
You're probably talking to the wrong person about that.

I had a very positive experience with public education. I believe that going to public school (and public latchkey) is directly and specifically responsible for much of my academic and professional success to date. My high school AP American History teacher alone is single-handedly responsible for my ability to pass DBQ-style exams. Lord knows I couldn't even come close to handling them before her. And my AP English teacher gets the credit for every cogent expository essay I've written in the last 5 years.

But hey, that's just my personal experience speaking. Maybe public education sucks in some places. That's lousy, and I don't think anybody should choose to live in an area that fails to prioritize education. I know I don't.

You're probably talking to the wrong person about that.

I had a very positive experience with public education. I believe that going to public school (and public latchkey) is directly and specifically responsible for much of my academic and professional success to date. My high school AP American History teacher alone is single-handedly responsible for my ability to pass DBQ-style exams. Lord knows I couldn't even come close to handling them before her. And my AP English teacher gets the credit for every cogent expository essay I've written in the last 5 years.

But hey, that's just my personal experience speaking. Maybe public education sucks in some places. That's lousy, and I don't think anybody should choose to live in an area that fails to prioritize education. I know I don't.

Places like the county where I live (and grew up in) are quite rare as far as quality of public education go.

I consider you lucky - extremely lucky - and not an indication of the overall standard of public education.

Didn't you just turn 50 recently? Happy belated birthday if so. I vaguely remember you mentioning May a few weeks back.

no its next month. its just so close it seems silly to say "49".

maybe i should say 49 1/2.

And of course, you've met every teacher on the planet. :rolleyes:

Hell, I doubt you've met every teacher in any one school and asked them if they recommend teaching. You were obviously a poor student who was not paying attention during the "sweeping generalizations make you look really, really stupid" lesson.

maybe you should read what i said and take it for what it was. don't put your opinion of what i meant on me.

You're probably talking to the wrong person about that.

I had a very positive experience with public education. I believe that going to public school (and public latchkey) is directly and specifically responsible for much of my academic and professional success to date. My high school AP American History teacher alone is single-handedly responsible for my ability to pass DBQ-style exams. Lord knows I couldn't even come close to handling them before her. And my AP English teacher gets the credit for every cogent expository essay I've written in the last 5 years.

But hey, that's just my personal experience speaking. Maybe public education sucks in some places. That's lousy, and I don't think anybody should choose to live in an area that fails to prioritize education. I know I don't.
That is the exception of the exception. In my school, the AP History teacher was 200 years old (he was the principle of the elementary school that the principle of the school he is teaching at went to) and his history tests and work consisted of fill in the blank papers. Only one person was able to pass the AP exam and that was only because he was a prodigy in pretty much everything.

If you want better teachers, then offer better pay, better working conditions, more competition and actually fire some of the lazier and bad ones.
Sounds great in theory, but if it was that simple, don't you think it would have happened already?

How is education funded in the US? Through property taxes. The second those are threatened to be raised, everyone bitches, particularly when they find out it is for education. In order to get better teachers, there must be a shift in respect for the profession in conjunction with an increase in pay and conditions.

That is the exception of the exception. In my school, the AP History teacher was 200 years old (he was the principle of the elementary school that the principle of the school he is teaching at went to) and his history tests and work consisted of fill in the blank papers. Only one person was able to pass the AP exam and that was only because he was a prodigy in pretty much everything.
So how do you know that her is the exception of the exception and not yours?

In some cases, a person can begin teaching before getting any type of teaching certification. In my state, for instance, a person with a bachelor's in math or science (I know these for sure, I'm not sure about history, English, etc.), can begin teaching straight immediately if her GPA was high enough. I believe she gets about two years in which to get her teaching certification - but she can be a full-time teacher while doing so - before any actual teaching classes have been taken.

That's the case here too--I was largely defending the Liberal Arts degree. ;)

In some cases, a person can begin teaching before getting any type of teaching certification. In my state, for instance, a person with a bachelor's in math or science (I know these for sure, I'm not sure about history, English, etc.), can begin teaching straight immediately if her GPA was high enough. I believe she gets about two years in which to get her teaching certification - but she can be a full-time teacher while doing so - before any actual teaching classes have been taken.

The New England (and I think extending to the entire Northeast) require that teachers pass a certification test and hold a BA or BS in their subject area. Following that, teachers have 5 years to get a masters.

This is largerly the standard that is enforced by NCLB, but states still control the licenure requirements.

Here (http://www.nea.org/esea/qualification/teacher/images/hqteacherchart.pdf)is the flow chart for NCLB Highly qualified teachers [NOTE: it is a PDF file]

Even without that, the public school system appears to be doing an excellent job of promoting ignorance.
It's absolutly amazing that here we teachers are doing such a crappy job and yet the US still leads the world in a number of areas. Given that most of our leaders, elected or business, went to public schools sometime in their lives, this makes it even MORE astounding!

Gee, I wonder if 95% (The number of kids in public schools) of the US public are just the most gifted folks on the planet and are able to somehow overide all that bad education they are getting to produce the workers that are going to those top universities and driving the US economy.

Yeah, it must be that and has nothing at all to do with the education they got at their public school. :rolleyes:

You are quite well informed, so its as good as Kat herself.
I hope so, I also am a teacher.

Of course I also had a class last night so I'm a bit late in replying to this.

Aye, 5 years+1 does equal the six years that was the *low end* of Kat's statement. But one could finish a bachelors in less than that. A different acquaintance of mine (extremely smart woman), came in to college with a ton of APs and even some community college credit she finished while in high school. She's graduating next week after 2 years in actual college with a degree in history. So, one could say you could become a teacher in 3 years of training... but thats the minority of cases anyway. So yeah, I'll agree with the 6 years of training (on average), but if we use the numbers that are higher than average to get the other part of the scale we should use the lower than average ones too. So either say 6 years to become a teacher, or say 3-9.
If you agree that you can get an EE degree in two years as well (Fellow classmate when I got my BA, managed it in two years). In any case, I think Kat was also including us nutty grad degree holders, but I can't speak for her at this time.

Haven't heard this, is California one of those states? I'm fairly certain a masters here nets a teacher some sort of pay raise, but no idea if they have to get it... I'll be sure and ask someone. I know for certain that lawyers, doctors, accountants, and a wide variety of other professionals have to keep their education up, though more by attending conferences and reading books than going to classes.
Couldn't say for sure on California. I know Nevada and Oregon have such laws and when I took my ed law course, my professor mentioned that it was pretty standard across the nation, so it wouldn't surprise me that they too had that on the books. But, yeah, having a MA/MS/MEd does give you a pay boost, but you don't have a choice if you want to do it or not.

I can write you a paper any time. I'm a Chemistry student, but I've taken my fair share of English courses, including several at the college level. Hell, I'm taking British literature this semester (medical schools want multiple college level English courses), and my writing is no worse than any of the multitude of English majors in that class, the majority of whom are studying for their "English credential" (i.e. to teach high school English). Trust me, I've peer reviewed enough papers to tell you that.
Perhaps (not having read an actually paper you wrote), but again, my experiance has been that the techies usually have one hell of a time with writing works that are not, well, technical.

As for liberal arts being more subjective, thats one of the reasons why I consider it far easier. When the answer is black or white, the reaction either happened or it didnt, you must *know* the material. When you can just bullshit an answer up, and as long as you remain coherent and manage to regurgitate some viewpoint the instructor portrayed to the class, its far easier. I always found essay questions for something like a humanities class a joke, especially if the teacher allowed you to use the work during the exam as a reference.
That's one of the reasons I consider it harder at times. There IS no right answer, it's all about how you make and back up your argument, which can mean having to make adjustments for everything that you do. BSing only works for a bit in that, after a while you're not going to be able to BS your way out if it.

I was thinking more of the sciences teachers than English ones when I said that they probably couldn't make it in an alternate workplace, or didn't want to. Like I said in my initial post, it is of course possible that there are many teachers out there who just love imparting knowledge, but there are others who just want a safe job. As the song goes, what else are you going to do with a B.A. in English?
I'd love to let you meet the science teacher I work with, I think he'd more than give you a run for your money. That being said, there is a very large need for math and science teachers, a lot of the positions are being filled by secondary qualification holders (meaning not their main teaching major).

Of course, hearing from my eng friends complain about their professors, I have to wonder if it's not so much that the few science teachers are scientists who couldn't hack it and more along the lines that most scientists just don't like to teach.

Teaching is, of course, very subjective.

The thing is, its about as hard to fire an incompetent (tenured) teacher as it is to impeach a senile federal judge (i.e. practically impossible). In universities tenure serves as protection of a professors intellectual freedom to do research. In a high school? Not so much. A teacher is more of a salaried employee that should be evaluated on performance like in any other institution. (which leads into the next point...)
Sometimes that tenure is needed though, parents can and do go to their friends in the city government or on the school board and demand that a teacher be fired for daring to fail their child (Who hasn't done anything all year long).

But, like I said, there is a lot of problems with tenure.

I honestly don't know. I can tell you, having taken a class, whether or not I believe the teacher is a good one. At my university we all fill out evaluations of our teacher (that he doesnt see till after grades are in) at the end of the semester. Also, other professors often come in at a random class period and sit in on a lecture (often the chair of the department is the one who does this). Obviously, no one measure can show whether or not a teacher is good, but theres a difference between someone whos students all pass but dont know the material, someone whos students all fail and dont know the material, and someone whos students work, and the ones who pass *do* know the material.
There is indeed, but, sadly, every time merit pay or accountability is mentioned, it almost always is tied in with standardized testing, which is a very poor way to measure if a student knows the material or not. If we did teacher evaluations by having a master teacher look at lesson plans, taped classes, dropping into a class or two, and a portfolio of student work all evaluated against the master teacher licence criteria, I'd be more than happy to agree with the idea. If we evaluated by looking at student work over the year by having the students turn in portfolios, I'd also agree. But not with a scantron test that only covers 3% of what I am supposed to be teaching.

Oh, and I'm kinda lerry on evaluations at the public school level as university kids want to be at the school, I have a much more captive audience, many who really DON'T want to be in school. That might color their opinions a bit. ;)

Sending an unruly child to the office (or home) was what teachers did when I was in elementary school, and I don't know what else one could do, since I'm fairly certain corporal punishment is illegal :-p
There's a whole host of issues, both legal and professional, that go along with sending a kid to the office or home. Sometimes you just can't.

You wait until you leave college for a job in the real world

Then have to deal with the drop outs and morons who thought skipping school for 2 years was fun.

In the my line of work (Senior CNC programmer/setter) I get the aforementioned school leavers coming up to me and saying 'thats easy, I wanna learn to set and program a machine like you and earn the big bux'
A few simple maths and english tests later they dont like it when I tell them they have not got the education to do the job, nor the appitude to be able to learn stuff. (would rather spend the weekend smoking dope than learn basic maths)

As for having to stand at the front of a class of 30 such oiks and teach, I refer you to the answer I gave my university tutor when he suggested me going into teaching ' ^$&$& off'

im not a student at all. im 50 years old and i have never known a teacher to recommend the job to anyone least of all the brightest students.

Then I'd say that your opinion is uninformed. Not only have I recommended it, I've kept in touch with several of my students who pursued it, let them come observe me, been a cooperating teacher, and shared some of the materials that have worked best for me.

But do go on.

You wait until you leave college for a job in the real world

Then have to deal with the drop outs and morons who thought skipping school for 2 years was fun.

In the my line of work (Senior CNC programmer/setter) I get the aforementioned school leavers coming up to me and saying 'thats easy, I wanna learn to set and program a machine like you and earn the big bux'
A few simple maths and english tests later they dont like it when I tell them they have not got the education to do the job, nor the appitude to be able to learn stuff. (would rather spend the weekend smoking dope than learn basic maths)

As for having to stand at the front of a class of 30 such oiks and teach, I refer you to the answer I gave my university tutor when he suggested me going into teaching ' ^$&$& off'

And aren't these oiks you speak the ones who dropped out and... "thought skipping school for 2 years was fun"? You're contradicting yourself somewhat. Either they're in or they're out, you can't have it both ways. And might I suggest you look up the word 'aptitude' before you go on complaining about how people - people who are evidently having more fun than you - have the dashed temerity to seek to move up the ladder in spite of not having a string of letters following their surname... like you suffered to acquire.

Here is a good example of some idiotic behavior of a few teachers. Granted the majority are good but this is a bit far and makes people wonder.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/EDUCATION/05/13/faked.attack.ap/index.html

And I'm sure my peers here would agree that that was criminally idiotic.

And I'm sure my peers here would agree that that was criminally idiotic.
No arguments there.

Ummm--you don't get to teach in the US based on a Liberal arts degree. You're talking about an Education degree there. If you get a Liberal Arts degree, you still have to get an alternative certification in most states, and that involves Education classes.

I'm just saying--don't blame us Liberal Arts people.

I got the English B.A. and spent seven years in a Manhattan media corporation and quit because I didn't get any enjoyment making money for suits. There's quite a lot you can do with a Liberal Arts Degree -- publishing, public relations, business writing, advertising...

Then I went back for the MA in Secondary Education (GPA 3.91, thank you very much) because I felt that it was a worthwhile career. I had to listen quite a lot to well-meaning family members trying to discourage me because I could make so much more money in the corporate world. So pardon me if I get a little pissed when people imply I am where I am because I am stupid, and lazy, and couldn't do any better.

The New England (and I think extending to the entire Northeast) require that teachers pass a certification test and hold a BA or BS in their subject area. Following that, teachers have 5 years to get a masters.

For me, in addition to that, I had to pass two written exams (a general pedagogy/educational theory exam and a content area exam), an oral exam, student teaching, and a videotaped lesson sent to the state. There was also a year of substitute teaching (to pay for all this ejumacashun stuff) which is hardly the breeze people seem to think it. Additionally there were many MANY observations for the first four years, and my professional assignment once I was appointed was to observe the master teachers in the school (a couple of whom held doctorates) and log my observations of their classes as well as meet with them to discuss technique.

In the first year after the license, I also needed to accrue an additional 30 credits of in-service courses. You know, while teaching 170 students each term, writing lesson plans to take into account multiple learning styles, and grading all the associated work.

As for teaching being a half day: I am in my school at 7am, and leave at 2:30pm, and can look forward to hours more work at home.

Perhaps (not having read an actually paper you wrote), but again, my experiance has been that the techies usually have one hell of a time with writing works that are not, well, technical.

I think that is generally true, but not always. One of the hardest things I had to do for my tech degree was learn to switch over to technical writing. In literary (or really any liberal arts) writing, we're told to vary sentence structure, use different words, etc. In technical writing, you're supposed to do just the opposite, while repeating yourself umpteen times. I hated it, and always felt like the writing sounded awful and that I should "correct" it, even though that is precisely what technical writing is supposed to be. Add to that the freshman year course I had to take that included instructions on how to write a 5-paragraph essay (something I'd migrated on from years previous) and you get a tech student who was glad for her theology courses - where she could write real papers.

I find it amazing how many people can criticize the US/Western education systems, but how few suggetions people have. I promise that Kat, NER and I could easily come up with a huge list. Now, I have no doubt that me and the other two would disagree on some things, but I also have no question that the major points would stand between all three (I can also promise that all of my suggestions are research-based, so yeah...).

Well here is an example of some imbeciles working in education

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2332564.html

Teachers in hold-up 'prank'

Teachers at a US primary school terrified children by staging a fake gun attack and shouting: "This isn't a drill!"

The 69 pupils, aged 10 and 11, cried and hid under tables as the lights went out and a hooded teacher pulled at the locked door, reports the Daily Mirror.

Then the teachers turned on the lights and said it was just a joke.

Parents are furious, especially after last month's Virginia Tech massacre in which 33 students and staff died.

Bosses of the school in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, said the five-minute "prank" was intended as a "learning experience".

Principal Catherine Stephens said it was "poor judgment" but added: "I hope we learn from this."

The school website claimed children were warned a prank would be played and afterwards "most said, 'That was a good one, you got me'.

But it admitted: "This prank crossed the line... prompt and appropriate discipline will be taken."

My question is why are ALL sports teachers such complete shits?

Well here is an example of some imbeciles working in education

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2332564.html

Teachers in hold-up 'prank'

Teachers at a US primary school terrified children by staging a fake gun attack and shouting: "This isn't a drill!"

The 69 pupils, aged 10 and 11, cried and hid under tables as the lights went out and a hooded teacher pulled at the locked door, reports the Daily Mirror.

Then the teachers turned on the lights and said it was just a joke.

Parents are furious, especially after last month's Virginia Tech massacre in which 33 students and staff died.

Bosses of the school in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, said the five-minute "prank" was intended as a "learning experience".

Principal Catherine Stephens said it was "poor judgment" but added: "I hope we learn from this."

The school website claimed children were warned a prank would be played and afterwards "most said, 'That was a good one, you got me'.

But it admitted: "This prank crossed the line... prompt and appropriate discipline will be taken."
I've always said that modern kids would benefit from a week in a WW1 trench being heavily shelled! Boosts character!:D

this is like asking why is the world run by retarded loonatics.

(there is an answer to this btw, it is because that is what a market is created for by the statistical sum of our defacto priorities)

but a more specific answer may have to do with the roll of chamber of commerces, in defacto dictating the make up of educational boards of trustees.

(even if we are given the opportunity to vote for them, i mean who the heck knows diddly about most of their members and or potential members anyway, nor how, short of knowing them personaly yourself, can you ever possibly really know anything about them anyway?)

=^^=
.../\...

(even if we are given the opportunity to vote for them, i mean who the heck knows diddly about most of their members and or potential members anyway, nor how, short of knowing them personaly yourself, can you ever possibly really know anything about them anyway?)
Of course, it's only electing the very people responsible for the tone of the district, hiring and firing of teachers, and setting the curricula for your child NOW. The very same people responsible for the education your child receives which effects your child's future. And, of course, all of this is done with money you paid in taxes.

No biggie at all then. Yeah, you shouldn't worry your little head about it at all.

any one else notice the totalitarian style leadership in public schools??

they all seem to think their way is best, and that your opion counts for shit compared to theirs and yet whos responsible for the current condition of the world kids or adults?? things would be much better with kids leading the way (mature ones that is) thats why im a firm believer in post modernism, but hell we arent gonna win, they'll never see you as their equal, accept it,

Becoming a teacher is the easiest way to get a job without having amny talents. Teachers are those who don't make it elsewhere. Which is sad, because the education system shouldn't be the trash-heap of society.

Of course, it's only electing the very people responsible for the tone of the district, hiring and firing of teachers, and setting the curricula for your child NOW. The very same people responsible for the education your child receives which effects your child's future. And, of course, all of this is done with money you paid in taxes.

No biggie at all then. Yeah, you shouldn't worry your little head about it at all.
Maybe we have an answer to our little question, eh?


Becoming a teacher is the easiest way to get a job without having amny talents. Teachers are those who don't make it elsewhere. Which is sad, because the education system shouldn't be the trash-heap of society.
Ha. Right. Have you ever taught in a classroom?

They offered incentive to scientists to teach in the classroom. Within 5 years, over 80 percent had returned to their research jobs not because teaching was too easy, but instead because it was too difficult.

And where does this idea that I can't make in anywhere else come from exactly? I'm in BU, making the same grades in the same classes as all other English majors. I'm also pulling the equivalent of a double major, still pulling a 3.0.

So really, I'm pretty fucking sure I could make it elsewhere.

They offered incentive to scientists to teach in the classroom. Within 5 years, over 80 percent had returned to their research jobs not because teaching was too easy, but instead because it was too difficult.


Pulling 45k a year in salary plus benefits isn't exactly "incentive", unless you can incent rocks to hover in mid-air by wishing it were so. Especially in our area, where starting salaries for engineers who want to work on defense projects starts at three times that rate plus benefits.

Pulling 45k a year in salary plus benefits isn't exactly "incentive", unless you can incent rocks to hover in mid-air by wishing it were so. Especially in our area, where starting salaries for engineers who want to work on defense projects starts at three times that rate plus benefits.

it was well over that, in both benefits and salary.

Incentives tend to not be the average salary....

it was well over that, in both benefits and salary.

Incentives tend to not be the average salary....

I call bullshit on that being any teacher in any district in the US primary or secondary education system - public schools.

Within the US...

Fact: Intended education majors score dead lowest on the SATs.
Also Fact: Those intending to get into graduate school for secondary education score very close to overall average on the GREs.

Fact: Education majors tend to take a long time going through college.
Also Fact: Education majors have more requirements to graduate from college.

Fact: Education graduates start out at some of the lowest starting salaries of any major.
Also fact: Education graduates have one of (if not the) best supplies of jobs of any major.
Also fact: Education graduates earn much more than typical dropouts, high school graduates, or holders of associate's degrees.

So here's what you have. Education pays less than other career options, and involves going through more crap in school, but has good job security, and a decent payscale that you'd need a college education to secure. "We'll take care of you, but you may not get far with it" is what some students are hearing - and that's encouraging not particularly bright people to try to go into the field.

There are - no offense intended to others, and I had personally very good teachers in high school (mostly) - plenty of people in education that are dumb as rocks. I'm not sure how they get through all the certifications and other processes - perhaps it's nodding and smiling enough, perhaps the standards aren't as high as they seem, maybe they're just persistent - whatever it is - but they're there.

I call bullshit on that being any teacher in any district in the US primary or secondary education system - public schools.

Assuming I'm actually getting your point (which I might not be), it was in Massachusetts. Connecticut and Rhode Island have done similar experiments.



This also helps to show that talking about the "American education system" inherently fails. New England states perform on par or above the rest of the developed world. States like Mississippi perform below most 3rd world nations. Welcome to decentralization. Current starting salary for primary teachers in Boston is $42,000. States like Wisconsin are just over half that. Teaching cert, curricula, general guidelines, funding...almost none are comparable.

There are - no offense intended to others, and I had personally very good teachers in high school (mostly) - plenty of people in education that are dumb as rocks. I'm not sure how they get through all the certifications and other processes - perhaps it's nodding and smiling enough, perhaps the standards aren't as high as they seem, maybe they're just persistent - whatever it is - but they're there.

No question, there are. And much of the issue are the unions and tenure system as they currently stand. Unfortunatly, those systems exist because of problems in the past, and will not easily go away.

You assume you're their brightest student then?

6, including you and Kat. 4 of my teachers told me I should be one.

At least you're convinced of being the brightest then ;)

you had enough time to play video games:eek:

while my roommate works on his problem set, I'm writing my papers and passing the heck out.

Uh, I had plenty of time for video games in the evening. That's what Computer Science does for you :)

No question, there are. And much of the issue are the unions and tenure system as they currently stand. Unfortunatly, those systems exist because of problems in the past, and will not easily go away.
That's not the issue at all, actually.

First, when we talk about "education," we're not talking about the university level, where academics have serious tenure protections. Some - but not all - states have "tenure" for teachers, which means that if they work for three years without getting canned, they can't be fired without a reason. Unions? Piffle. The teachers' union hasn't managed to get better benefits than other state employees, or better payscales than other college graduates.

Teachers do get fired for just cause - quite a bit more easily in secondary and elementary education than in higher education, from what I've seen, and higher education has very little problem with idiot professors. (As a population, tenured college profs are some of the smartest groups you'll deal with - and it's not easy to become one.)

Security for teachers comes not from unions, but from supply and demand. Demand, on the whole, exceeds supply; unless you're offering well above average pay for teachers, you don't get to do as much picking and choosing when it comes to the hiring slate as you would in other industries.

At least you're convinced of being the brightest then ;)And I have the academic standing to prove it.


That's not the issue at all, actually.

First, when we talk about "education," we're not talking about the university level, where academics have serious tenure protections. Some - but not all - states have "tenure" for teachers, which means that if they work for three years without getting canned, they can't be fired without a reason. Unions? Piffle. The teachers' union hasn't managed to get better benefits than other state employees, or better payscales than other college graduates.I'm not talking about higher education here, either. I'm talking about the good ol' tenure process that is, to some extent, is present in most, if not all, states (please, if you know of some that have no tenure, tell me which).
There is a reason schools have things like "rubber rooms" or "jails", places where teachers known to be pedophiles are placed and still paid when criminal charges aren't brought against them (for documentation, look for a 20/20 episode about American education...I forget the name). The process to fire a teacher is long and costly. Most teachers are not fired.
And generally, incompetence is not a fireable offence because it "can't be proven"

Teachers do get fired for just cause - quite a bit more easily in secondary and elementary education than in higher education, from what I've seen, and higher education has very little problem with idiot professors. (As a population, tenured college profs are some of the smartest groups you'll deal with - and it's not easy to become one.)Yeah, the publish or perish system weeds out most people.

Security for teachers comes not from unions, but from supply and demand. Demand, on the whole, exceeds supply; unless you're offering well above average pay for teachers, you don't get to do as much picking and choosing when it comes to the hiring slate as you would in other industries.Look at Japan, which is currently having a teacher surplus, with huge numbers of students looking to go into education. Yet, there is still job security.
I'm not saying that security comes only from unions. What I am saying is that they complicate the process of firing. In MA, teachers can't be fired for incompetence. they are just moved to a different school.

And this all points back to one of my other points. There is no "American" education system. Every states is vastly different.

Assuming I'm actually getting your point (which I might not be), it was in Massachusetts. Connecticut and Rhode Island have done similar experiments.

This also helps to show that talking about the "American education system" inherently fails. New England states perform on par or above the rest of the developed world. States like Mississippi perform below most 3rd world nations. Welcome to decentralization. Current starting salary for primary teachers in Boston is $42,000. States like Wisconsin are just over half that. Teaching cert, curricula, general guidelines, funding...almost none are comparable.

You prove that the teachers had a starting salary of 3 x 45000 - plus benefits. You were saying that the teachers were being offered as much as the engineers here.

That's 135,000 plus benefits - starting salary.

Fairfax County secondary school teachers start at 45,000, the elementary at slightly less. The best they can ever hope to make is around 70,000 as a teacher.

And they are regarded as some of the best public schools in the country.

You were saying that the teacher could make as much as the starting engineer here?

I call bullshit unless you can prove otherwise.

Starting salary

You prove that the teachers had a starting salary of 3 x 45000 - plus benefits. You were saying that the teachers were being offered as much as the engineers here.

That's 135,000 plus benefits - starting salary.

Fairfax County secondary school teachers start at 45,000, the elementary at slightly less. The best they can ever hope to make is around 70,000 as a teacher.

And they are regarded as some of the best public schools in the country.

You were saying that the teacher could make as much as the starting engineer here?

I call bullshit unless you can prove otherwise.

Starting salary
Okay. Let's try this again.

The average starting salary in Boston is 42,000. Yes? yes.

Now, the state offered an incentive. That means that the state offered higher pay to scientists willing to come teach, be it through direct pay, signing bonus, benefits, tuition forgiveness, etc. (that is, by definition, an incentive: something above the norm meant to attract)

I never said they were being offered the same as other industries. I said that the package of incentives offered was well over the normal starting salary.

Okay. Let's try this again.

The average starting salary in Boston is 42,000. Yes? yes.

Now, the state offered an incentive. That means that the state offered higher pay to scientists willing to come teach, be it through direct pay, signing bonus, benefits, tuition forgiveness, etc. (that is, by definition, an incentive: something above the norm meant to attract)

I never said they were being offered the same as other industries. I said that the package of incentives offered was well over the normal starting salary.

The average starting salary for a qualified engineer straight out of college on a defense contract (and they can't fill the jobs here) is 135,000.

Why would any of them work as a teacher? Anywhere?

Median income is around 90,000 here. You want to start at half the median income, and know you'll never make the median income?

Did your brains suddenly fall out?

The average starting salary for a qualified engineer straight out of college on a defense contract (and they can't fill the jobs here) is 135,000.

Why would any of them work as a teacher? Anywhere?

Median income is around 90,000 here. You want to start at half the median income, and know you'll never make the median income?

Did your brains suddenly fall out?

So many issues here.

Why would anyone want to go into teaching? Because not everyone is a whore for money. Some people want to actually be satisfied by their job. By increasing the incentive to work in the field, more people are willing to try it.
Under your logic, we wouldn't have any teachers.

Now lets continue: I'm not talking about engineers. There are very few, if any, engineering positions open in schools. I'm talking about scientists and mathematicians.
Teachers average salaries tend to be about 10-30% over the average of an area.

The fact of the matter is that MA, CT, and RI did try this. Scientists did enter the school system, and left shortly there after, primarily citing that the level of work was not justified by even their elevated pay.

And I have the academic standing to prove it.


I'm not talking about higher education here, either. I'm talking about the good ol' tenure process that is, to some extent, is present in most, if not all, states (please, if you know of some that have no tenure, tell me which).
There is a reason schools have things like "rubber rooms" or "jails", places where teachers known to be pedophiles are placed and still paid when criminal charges aren't brought against them (for documentation, look for a 20/20 episode about American education...I forget the name). The process to fire a teacher is long and costly.
Varies from state to state as to how long and how costly. Take: http://www.nbc10.com/education/9936513/detail.html

Now, perhaps there's a regional difference, but down here in the Southeast, it sure seems like you don't have to cross the local school board by much to get canned most parts about here.

And y'know, some folks agree with me on that count:
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/public_management_/2007/02/firing_teachers_the_evidence.php
Most teachers are not fired.
And generally, incompetence is not a fireable offence because it "can't be proven"
No, but if you don't figure out that they're incompetent within the three years before anything in the labor laws particular to teachers takes effect in most states, you're not doing your job as an administrator.

Due process isn't anything peculiar to teachers: http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeat_lessons20020626


Yeah, the publish or perish system weeds out most people.

Look at Japan, which is currently having a teacher surplus, with huge numbers of students looking to go into education. Yet, there is still job security.
I'm not saying that security comes only from unions. What I am saying is that they complicate the process of firing. In MA, teachers can't be fired for incompetence. they are just moved to a different school.
Japan is a very different place. Even within the public sector.
And this all points back to one of my other points. There is no "American" education system. Every states is vastly different.
This is true, for the most part... and not true at the same time. AFAIK, there's a reasonable amount of cross-state pollination going on in the education system, and the pool of students interested in becoming teachers - the more interesting feature - is not so carefully divided.

Varies from state to state as to how long and how costly. Take: http://www.nbc10.com/education/9936513/detail.html

Now, perhaps there's a regional difference, but down here in the Southeast, it sure seems like you don't have to cross the local school board by much to get canned most parts about here.

And y'know, some folks agree with me on that count:
http://www.samefacts.com/archives/public_management_/2007/02/firing_teachers_the_evidence.php
I'll admit near-total ignorance about the Southeast. Up here, unions are quite strong (most states require that you belong to the union). Now, I don't doubt that in those early years it is easy to be fired. But around here, after tenure has kicked in, it is very difficult

No, but if you don't figure out that they're incompetent within the three years before anything in the labor laws particular to teachers takes effect in most states, you're not doing your job as an administrator. There are a few problems here.
First of all, teachers take about 5 years to move from "novice" to "experienced" and really understand their job. It takes this time to move from pedagogy to reflection and experimentation. It will take a litle while for new teachers to show their true colors.
Then there is the issue of old teachers becoming bored. The current system is "20 and out": 20 years and total pension. These teachers are tenured, and can be a breaking point between a "good" teacher and an ineffective one.

Due process isn't anything peculiar to teachers: http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeat_lessons20020626Not by any means. But it does encourage financially strapped school districts to hold teachers rather than fire (plus, as you said, supply and demand)

Japan is a very different place. Even within the public sector.True. I mention it only as an example of a different society that may have solutions for us.

This is true, for the most part... and not true at the same time. AFAIK, there's a reasonable amount of cross-state pollination going on in the education system, and the pool of students interested in becoming teachers - the more interesting feature - is not so carefully divided.It is becoming less decentralized. But it still has a long way to go. When I get back from work, I'm considering posting a new thread about how to "fix" education, and if I do, I'll cover that there. But I have to run now.

Teachers do get fired for just cause - quite a bit more easily in secondary and elementary education than in higher education, from what I've seen, and higher education has very little problem with idiot professors. (As a population, tenured college profs are some of the smartest groups you'll deal with - and it's not easy to become one.)

Whether it's official "tenure" or not, from what I've seen, teachers who have been there a long time can get away with a hell of a lot more than those who haven't.

As for tenured college profs, they may be smart, but are not necessarily good teachers - especially at research schools. I've had some really awesome profs, but I've also had some who, while they certainly knew the material, couldn't teach worth a damn - and couldn't be bothered to try.


The average starting salary for a qualified engineer straight out of college on a defense contract (and they can't fill the jobs here) is 135,000.

Why would any of them work as a teacher? Anywhere?

Because they want to? Because they don't want to work for the DOD? I see calls to apply for DOD fellowships all the time - nice fellowships too. I ignore them, however, because I don't want to be forced to work for the DOD for who knows how many years.