NationStates Jolt Archive

First-off, I want to say I am not attacking your religion, nor am I questioning the existance of God, I just want to know this: according to Chrisitans, Jesus was crcified to pay for all the sins of the Christians so they don't go to hell. So you say if you become a Christian it washes away your sins. Now here is my misunderstanding: I can understand Jesus' crucificion covering the sins of his 15 or so diciples of the time, but EVERY Christian? Think about it, crucificion may be quite bad, but I simply can NOT see how it foots the bill for ALL the sins ever commited by Chrisitans. What about the Crusades?
Please answer.

As an ex-Christian, I think it's probably got something to do with the fact that Jesus, this massivley powerful being, knew people were going to kill Him but didn't use His powers to stop them (or, depending on what you believe about the idea of the Trinity, God had massive powers and Jesus didn't want God to use them to save Him), so it's the fact it was a personal sacrifice, rather than the amount of suffering involved - and from what I read about a near-death experience (or even after-death before back to life experience), you have to accept that Jesus did this for you (and probably gotta repent too) for the suffering to count, and that when you cause suffering you are actually hurting your Saviour Jesus Christ.

I know it's a bit different but think about the massive effects individual people have had before - eg. Rosa Parks.

Well, one, it wasn't just for Christians, it was for everyone (For God so loved the world), the whole Christian part is that He said that no one comes to the Father except through him.

In answer to your question, because Christ was a willing, innocent sacrifice. The Lamb of God who paid for every sin through His willingness to take them on for us. However, it should be noted that it's not just a Get Out of Sin free card though, you have to truly repent of what you have done and see the sin for a sin before you can receive forgiveness.

Well, one, it wasn't just for Christians, it was for everyone (For God so loved the world), the whole Christian part is that He said that no one comes to the Father except through him.

In answer to your question, because Christ was a willing, innocent sacrifice. The Lamb of God who paid for every sin through His willingness to take them on for us. However, it should be noted that it's not just a Get Out of Sin free card though, you have to truly repent of what you have done and see the sin for a sin before you can receive forgiveness.

Semi-Reasonable answer. I don't get why God would require a "Sacrificial Lamb" though. It was always explained to me that Christ had to pay a bill for humanity. The way I see is he paid for his direct followers. $600 covers the cost of their fancy meals, but everyone having a fancy meal isn't covered by $600.

Well, technically Jesus had died for the sins for every single person.

It's just that christians give over the adminsitration of their life to Jesus and so they are covered by the payment he had made.

The point wasn't how he died... It was the fact that he "always did the things the please his father (aka God)" He was undeserving of any death and so by dying on the cross every sin that was ever commited, that was being comitted or will be committed was placed upon him. He was essentially the sacrificial lamb to end all sacrificial lambs. God doesn't want us to follow a system for the sake of the system he wants for OBedience.

As for the Crusades, I can't really be sure but "Christendom" formally and ridgedly organised Christianity has generally lead people in the same trap that the Isrealites fell into following the system for the sake of the system rather being truly obedient to God's word.

Christianity is a personal religion, I can't say whether or not the people who took part in the Crusades where Christians or not but I will say the leadership of "The Church" at the time where directly comparable the pharisee's. Israel's religious leadership at the time of Christ that John the Baptist called "A Brood of Vipers"

And Jesus himself made the comment "In the day of Judgement it will be more tollerable for the people of Sodom and Gomorra than you."

I hope that's helped

Semi-Reasonable answer. I don't get why God would require a "Sacrificial Lamb" though. It was always explained to me that Christ had to pay a bill for humanity. The way I see is he paid for his direct followers. $600 covers the cost of their fancy meals, but everyone having a fancy meal isn't covered by $600.

The short answer I think is: God made the world, his rules.

Well, technically Jesus had died for the sins for every single person.

It's just that christians give over the adminsitration of their life to Jesus and so they are covered by the payment he had made.

The point wasn't how he died... It was the fact that he "always did the things the please his father (aka God)" He was undeserving of any death and so by dying on the cross every sin that was ever commited, that was being comitted or will be committed was placed upon him. He was essentially the sacrificial lamb to end all sacrificial lambs. God doesn't want us to follow a system for the sake of the system he wants for OBedience.

As for the Crusades, I can't really be sure but "Christendom" formally and ridgedly organised Christianity has generally lead people in the same trap that the Isrealites fell into following the system for the sake of the system rather being truly obedient to God's word.

Christianity is a personal religion, I can't say whether or not the people who took part in the Crusades where Christians or not but I will say the leadership of "The Church" at the time where directly comparable the pharisee's. Israel's religious leadership at the time of Christ that John the Baptist called "A Brood of Vipers"

And Jesus himself made the comment "In the day of Judgement it will be more tollerable for the people of Sodom and Gomorra than you."

I hope that's helped

So if Jesus just needed to die, why was his death so painful?

Semi-Reasonable answer. I don't get why God would require a "Sacrificial Lamb" though. It was always explained to me that Christ had to pay a bill for humanity. The way I see is he paid for his direct followers. $600 covers the cost of their fancy meals, but everyone having a fancy meal isn't covered by $600.
Well, from what I understand (and note that if you ask 100 different Christians, you'll get 100 different answers), it goes back to the old laws. Before Christ, when someone sinned, they had to sacrifice at the temple to be made clean again. The OT has lists of what needs to be sacrificed to clean a certain sin. The reasoning behind that, from what I know, in performing sacrifice, a person is showing that he or she repents of their sins. But, truthfully, no one could sacrifice enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That's what Christ was, the ultimate sacrifice, one who ended all need to sacrifice as He did pay for every sin in being a true innocent who willingly sacrificed Himself.

Jesus died horrifically, but the crucifiction, excruciating as it is (note the latin word "excruciating", derived from "crucis", that being "cross") was only the tip of the iceberg. God poured out His wrath and anger towards everyone that betrayed him, EVERYONE that had ever and will ever be born, and let Jesus have it all at once.
God is just, and all sin must be punished. Jesus has taken the rap for us, and paid for our rebellion against God.

If the sin just disappeared, then He wouldn't be just. Jesus bore our penalty. In body and soul.

So if Jesus just needed to die, why was his death so painful?

Because he needed to be killed as a criminal despite having done nothing wrong.

By doing this he was indeed taking the place of a sinner (literally in Barabus and spiritually) so by being killled as a person who had done wrong while actually not have done anything wrong (Something that Pontius Pilate Declared three times during his "trial") then he was able to take the punishment in the place.

Much like if I commit a crime and get sentenced but someone else does the time, Jesus did our time, he paid the punishment in our stead.

Which begs the question, why does it matter if you sin or not, since Jesus has already taken the rap for it.

Jesus died horrifically, but the crucifiction, excruciating as it is (note the latin word "excruciating", derived from "crucis", that being "cross") was only the tip of the iceberg. God poured out His wrath and anger towards everyone that betrayed him, EVERYONE that had ever and will ever be born, and let Jesus have it all at once.
God is just, and all sin must be punished. Jesus has taken the rap for us, and paid for our rebellion against God.

If the sin just disappeared, then He wouldn't be just. Jesus bore our penalty. In body and soul.

I'm sorry, like I said I don't see how only crucificion covers it. First-off, what about the people who crucified others? One crucificion can't cover thousands.

Jesus died horrifically, but the crucifiction, excruciating as it is (note the latin word "excruciating", derived from "crucis", that being "cross") was only the tip of the iceberg. God poured out His wrath and anger towards everyone that betrayed him, EVERYONE that had ever and will ever be born, and let Jesus have it all at once.
God is just, and all sin must be punished. Jesus has taken the rap for us, and paid for our rebellion against God.

If the sin just disappeared, then He wouldn't be just. Jesus bore our penalty. In body and soul.
Um, how is punishing an innocent person just? Sin doesn't just accumulate over time and build up in a big pool that must be neutralised by some form of punishment somewhere, does it?

I don't understand why God didn't snap his fingers and say 'bam, world saved' to paraphrase someone else here.

Because he needed to be killed as a criminal despite having done nothing wrong.

By doing this he was indeed taking the place of a sinner (literally in Barabus and spiritually) so by being killled as a person who had done wrong while actually not have done anything wrong (Something that Pontius Pilate Declared three times during his "trial") then he was able to take the punishment in the place.

Much like if I commit a crime and get sentenced but someone else does the time, Jesus did our time, he paid the punishment in our stead.

Like I said above, humanity's punishment would be a LOT worse then a crucificion.

Um, how is punishing an innocent person just? Sin doesn't just accumulate over time and build up in a big pool that must be neutralised by some form of punishment somewhere, does it?

I don't understand why God didn't snap his fingers and say 'bam, world saved' to paraphrase someone else here.

God doesn't use cheat codes.

First-off, I want to say I am not attacking your religion, nor am I questioning the existance of God, I just want to know this: according to Chrisitans, Jesus was crcified to pay for all the sins of the Christians so they don't go to hell. So you say if you become a Christian it washes away your sins. Now here is my misunderstanding: I can understand Jesus' crucificion covering the sins of his 15 or so diciples of the time, but EVERY Christian? Think about it, crucificion may be quite bad, but I simply can NOT see how it foots the bill for ALL the sins ever commited by Chrisitans. What about the Crusades?
Please answer.

I'm not a christian but i'll try to explain anyway. Here is a very simplified explanation: the jews had to sacrifice life to pay for their sins and the life they usually sacrificed was sheep. Sheep is not much of a sacrifice and only could only pay for a soul and ensured that the jews will live longer. They sacrificed sheep every year to pay for their sins, this is why in the Bible some people lived for sooo long. Now surely there must be other sacrifices that are worth more then sheep. What is the most innocent, most perfect sacrifice? God. When Jesus was crucified, you sacrificed God and also a pure soul. There is no greater sacrifice than this, and therefore no limit can be placed on this sacrifice. If there was a greater sacrifice, there must be something greater then God. This cannot be....

You get the idea?

God doesn't use cheat codes.
But then how did he create the earth without using 'Set_speed_1000000000'?

But then how did he create the earth without using 'Set_speed_1000000000'?

The whole "infinite patience" deal.;)

First-off, I want to say I am not attacking your religion, nor am I questioning the existance of God, I just want to know this: according to Chrisitans, Jesus was crcified to pay for all the sins of the Christians so they don't go to hell. So you say if you become a Christian it washes away your sins. Now here is my misunderstanding: I can understand Jesus' crucificion covering the sins of his 15 or so diciples of the time, but EVERY Christian? Think about it, crucificion may be quite bad, but I simply can NOT see how it foots the bill for ALL the sins ever commited by Chrisitans. What about the Crusades?
Please answer.

Well, it makes as much sense as the (big g) God not being able to change the Rules so sinners are forgiven without anyone getting nailed to a tree . . .

I'm not a christian but i'll try to explain anyway. Here is a very simplified explanation: the jews had to sacrifice life to pay for their sins and the life they usually sacrificed was sheep. Sheep is not much of a sacrifice and only could only pay for a soul and ensured that the jews will live longer. They sacrificed sheep every year to pay for their sins, this is why in the Bible some people lived for sooo long. Now surely there must be other sacrifices that are worth more then sheep. What is the most innocent, most perfect sacrifice? God. When Jesus was crucified, you sacrificed God and also a pure soul. There is no greater sacrifice than this, and therefore no limit can be placed on this sacrifice. If there was a greater sacrifice, there must be something greater then God. This cannot be....

You get the idea?

Not really. In my opinion "sacrifice" is giving-up, or losing something of yours. If I jump on rails to stop an out-of-control trolley, and die but save everyone, I made a sacrifice. If I PUSH someone else on it, I am not making a sacrifice of any kind. Jesus may have made a sacrifice, but I fail to see how humanity did.

Which begs the question, why does it matter if you sin or not, since Jesus has already taken the rap for it.

"So then should we sin so that Grace may abound? Certainly not, for how once we had died to sin to live any more in it?"

That's what the whoole Baptism thing symbolises, when we become a christian it's like we had died with Christ and was raised with him... We have a new nature within us.

"So then should we sin so that Grace may abound? Certainly not, for how once we had died to sin to live any more in it?"
unable to parse

I'm sorry, like I said I don't see how only crucificion covers it. First-off, what about the people who crucified others? One crucificion can't cover thousands.
If Jesus is representative of God Incarnate, and people choose to sacrifice him anyway, then they're by choice sacrificing the eternal deity. This is roughly equivilent to sacrificing creation itself. So whatever problems there are, quantity isn't one of them.

The real question, if you want to look on this as being a description of present day machinations, is why the standards exist at all that mean that atonement required sacrifice. It is a warped sense of justice that says that someone has to be punished in order for forgiveness to occur.

First-off, I want to say I am not attacking your religion, nor am I questioning the existance of God, I just want to know this: according to Chrisitans, Jesus was crcified to pay for all the sins of the Christians so they don't go to hell. So you say if you become a Christian it washes away your sins. Now here is my misunderstanding: I can understand Jesus' crucificion covering the sins of his 15 or so diciples of the time, but EVERY Christian? Think about it, crucificion may be quite bad, but I simply can NOT see how it foots the bill for ALL the sins ever commited by Chrisitans. What about the Crusades?
Please answer.

Actually, Jesus died to pay for all humans sin, specifically Original Sin.
Even the Vatican has stated that non-Christians who lead an exemplary life are going to heaven.

It doesn't foot the bill for ALL the sins ever committed. It washes away Original Sin and therefore breaks the power of death in that you can now look forward to resurrection if you lead a moral life.

Does that help?

I'm at work and thus don't have my bible and notes with me, so please bear with me as this is roughly from memory so i likely am missing something important:

From the Beginning, God required blood to cover sin (disobedience of God) when he slew a beast to cover up Adam and Eve's sin. The Hebrew Slaves in Egypt were commanded to use the blood of a lamb spread over their doorways as a sign to God when he passed over that they believed in him and he would Pass Over them (Thus, passover).

God also gave - throughout time - gave us prophecies concerning the perfect sacrifice to come, so that we would no longer have to go to a specially sanctified priest once a year and have him go unto God for our sins. This priest would have to spend weeks preparing himself and the blood sacrifice to go behind the veil at the temple into the Holy of Holies so that he could ask forgiveness of our sins. Without him and his special purification ceremonies so he could ask, we couldn't ask to be forgiven.

Thus, the perfect sacrifice was Jesus/Y'shua. When he finally gave up his spirit, the veil in the temple was rent (a VERY important verse many people miss). When that veil was rent (torn), that indicated that no longer did we have to go through a mediator here on earth to gain forgiveness for our sins against God, but we now had direct access to ask forgiveness for ourselves, and the blood we could use to claim as covering for our sins was that of Jesus/Y'shua.

Not really. In my opinion "sacrifice" is giving-up, or losing something of yours. If I jump on rails to stop an out-of-control trolley, and die but save everyone, I made a sacrifice. If I PUSH someone else on it, I am not making a sacrifice of any kind. Jesus may have made a sacrifice, but I fail to see how humanity did.

Jesus made the sacrifice for humanity. However, humanity did sacrifice god themselves. Jesus didn't crucify himself.

Actually, Jesus died to pay for all humans sin, specifically Original Sin.
Even the Vatican has stated that non-Christians who lead an exemplary life are going to heaven.

It doesn't foot the bill for ALL the sins ever committed. It washes away Original Sin and therefore breaks the power of death in that you can now look forward to resurrection if you lead a moral life.

Does that help?

Ya, it helps alot. So far, it's the only answer that is compatable with my question.

Like I said above, humanity's punishment would be a LOT worse then a crucificion.

Have you read the account of Jesus' Crucifiction in the Bible... (Just before it as well)... Not only did he feel the tremendous physical pain, he suffered the emotional torment of those people mocking him... as well as the spiritual torment from being seperated from his father(God), who until this point he had enjoyed a close relationship with (A number of times God had said "This is my son who I am well pleased in"

There was alot more than *just* crucifiction

Ya, it helps alot. So far, it's the only answer that is compatable with my question.

You do realise that this mostly only applies to catholicism. You are going to first have to believe that the vatican is pretty much infallible.

First-off, I want to say I am not attacking your religion, nor am I questioning the existance of God, I just want to know this: according to Chrisitans, Jesus was crcified to pay for all the sins of the Christians so they don't go to hell. So you say if you become a Christian it washes away your sins. Now here is my misunderstanding: I can understand Jesus' crucificion covering the sins of his 15 or so diciples of the time, but EVERY Christian? Think about it, crucificion may be quite bad, but I simply can NOT see how it foots the bill for ALL the sins ever commited by Chrisitans. What about the Crusades?
Please answer.
Your post is built of fail.

You do realise that this mostly only applies to catholicism. You are going to first have to believe that the vatican is pretty much infallible.

Well, it apperently is the only explaination that fits...

Unfortunately, most Christians get it wrong. It is what happened in the Garden of Gethsemene that allowed Christ to pay for the sins of the world. That is where Christ paid the price for those who repent and believe on him. That's the key, you must believe he lives and that he paid the price and then ask forgiveness.

His death on the cross was necessary to break the bands of death. Had he not voluntarily suffered and died, then eternal life would not have been possible. Christ died, but the miracle is that he arose again and lived. Why do we fixate on the cross when it is only a portion of what Christ did for us?

I realize that this will persuade no one to accept Christ, but I had to put my two cents worth in.

I'm sorry, like I said I don't see how only crucificion covers it. First-off, what about the people who crucified others? One crucificion can't cover thousands.But this is not about the crucifixion as such.
This is about God humbling himself to become human and to himself bear the punishment that he had set for sin even before the Fall of Man. Because Man cannot carry the burden of sin, God incarnated into Jesus to be the redemptor.

You do realise that this mostly only applies to catholicism. You are going to first have to believe that the vatican is pretty much infallible.

I only mentioned the Vatican because I am Catholic, but I've been to enough of my best friends' services in a Lutheran/Dutch Reformed church to know that they, at least, believe that Jesus' sacrifice broke the chains of eternal death and give us a chance at eternal life too.

Um, how is punishing an innocent person just? Sin doesn't just accumulate over time and build up in a big pool that must be neutralised by some form of punishment somewhere, does it?

I don't understand why God didn't snap his fingers and say 'bam, world saved' to paraphrase someone else here.

I suppose it will sound like a paradox, however, I will say it anyway.

God is shall we say, bound to his own fundamental rules, he cannot alter them so to speak so he needed a way around them. Someone sinless needed to die for sin, so while before Christ, it was animals (who do not commit sin), Christ took on all the burden of sin when he was crucified, and given that he was sinless, it wiped away all the sin - the important thing to remember is that you need to pass the burden of that sin to Jesus to be cleared of it.

Even the Vatican has stated that non-Christians who lead an exemplary life are going to heaven.

I bet you that non-Christians with an exemplary life have committed sin. Chances are that Nelson Mandela lied as a boy; Mother Theresa, along with the Catholic Church, worshipped Gods aside from God himself (i.e. the Virgin Mary and the Saints) and so on. Even one sin is enough to blot the record, and unfortunately, we all commit that first sin at about age two.

I only mentioned the Vatican because I am Catholic, but I've been to enough of my best friends' services in a Lutheran/Dutch Reformed church to know that they, at least, believe that Jesus' sacrifice broke the chains of eternal death and give us a chance at eternal life too.So god would be breaking his own laws? That's not possible.
It's rather that god took the punishment for sin himself, and thus stayed within the limits of his own jurisdiction.

So god would be breaking his own laws? That's not possible.
God can break the rules of the Church/Temple however he so pleases without contradiction. They're just human organisations.

God can break the rules of the Church/Temple however he so pleases without contradiction. They're just human organisations.Death is not something created by human organisations :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Again, Christianity gets it wrong.

Sacrificing a sheep or cattle or whatever did not pay the price for sin. It was a similitude, a foreshadowing of what was to come. God was trying to prepare Israel for the coming of the Savior Jesus Christ and to show what he would do for humanity. Unfortunately, he came and only few believed.

Only Christ could pay for the sins of others. Animals do not have that ability. So Christ's sacrifice paid the price, both past and future, for those who will believe.

Death is not something create3d my human organisations :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Death isn't a law anyway; it's a configuration of life that could easily not occur should we or anyone else work out how to prevent or reverse it.

Laws are only models, and there is no problem with God invalidating models as he so wishes.

how about this one...

in world of christians god screwed up from day one (or day 6 but who is counting?) his great creation of man and woman didnt last a month in the garden of eden

his most (physically) perfect people didnt last ONE MONTH before they had to be tossed to the wolves.

humanity as a group sucked so badly that they ALL had to be killed in a great flood. god saved less than a dozen people to repopulate the earth. thats a big do-over.

in christian theology NO ONE made it to heaven. the best they got was a peaceful stay in limbo. (moses, abraham, isaiah, etc.) god screwed up so badly that every freaking person failed the test of life and no one was in heaven where he had intended them to end up.

so in the fullness of time (in god there is no time) HE came to earth and fixed it. HE came to earth in the incarnation of jesus. HE lived preached and died. HE descended into hell and rescued all the righteous dead. and HE rose from the dead and lived with his disciples for 40 days to firmly demonstrate that death is no longer the end. in christ we can all have eternal life.

god fucked it up and god fixed it himself. he left us with a new covenant where we each are responsible for our own salvation. he gave us rules and guidelines for how he would like us to live. he demonstrated with his own earthly life that such guidelines make sense.

Again, Christianity gets it wrong.

Sacrificing a sheep or cattle or whatever did not pay the price for sin. It was a similitude, a foreshadowing of what was to come. God was trying to prepare Israel for the coming of the Savior Jesus Christ and to show what he would do for humanity. Unfortunately, he came and only few believed.

Only Christ could pay for the sins of others. Animals do not have that ability. So Christ's sacrifice paid the price, both past and future, for those who will believe.

All indications I get is that the ceremony associated with the sacrifice of a sheep at Yom Kippur was to do with the transfer of sin from a human to an innocent animal - after all, it was known as the Day of Atonement.

God knew from the beginning that man would not be able to live sin free. His plan to send a Savior existed before he created Adam and Eve. He didn't F*ck it up and then have to create a do-over.

God knows us. He knows that no matter how we try, we cannot live without committing sin. So, in his infinite wisdom, he created a plan whereby we could return to live with him. That is the beauty of his plan. He knows us and still loves us despite our problems.

I don't know that much about Jewish theology. But I believe aciently, Israel misunderstood what they had been taught by their prophets, that is why they denied Christ. They did not recognize the signs given and rejected Christ.

So, from my belief as a Christian, the animal sacrifice had nothing to do with taking away sin, but as a way of teaching Israel the need for a Savior and to recognize him when he was sent. I beileve they missed it.

Okay, Death is in the world because of Original Sin. If Jesus removed that onus, why is there still Death?

... But I believe aciently, Israel misunderstood what they had been taught by their prophets, that is why they denied Christ. ...When Christ, or rather Jesus/Yeshua, came around, Israel had been long gone.

Okay, Death is in the world because of Original Sin. If Jesus removed that onus, why is there still Death?

it is the death of our "true selves" that doesnt die. our souls live forever with god in heaven.

it is the death of our "true selves" that doesnt die. our souls live forever with god in heaven.according to christianity, that is

God knew from the beginning that man would not be able to live sin free. His plan to send a Savior existed before he created Adam and Eve. He didn't F*ck it up and then have to create a do-over.

God knows us. He knows that no matter how we try, we cannot live without committing sin. So, in his infinite wisdom, he created a plan whereby we could return to live with him. That is the beauty of his plan. He knows us and still loves us despite our problems.

yeah but not a great solution for all the people who lived before jesus, at the time of jesus but no where near the holy land, and after jesus in places where christianity doesnt reach.

and it sure plays out like a fuck-up doenst it. im sure YOU can buy the "oops i meant to do that" theory of the story but all i see is fuckup and eventual fix.

according to christianity, that is

of course.

(have you read children of hurin yet?)

Okay, Death is in the world because of Original Sin. If Jesus removed that onus, why is there still Death?
Jesus removed "true" death, meaning the death of the spirit. We still have death, but it doesn't last forever.

Okay, Death is in the world because of Original Sin. If Jesus removed that onus, why is there still Death?

Death as a finality. Before the Crucifixion, those people who died would never have the chance of resurrection.

With the sacrifice of the crucifixion, Christians believe that death is not the end, and that reward in the afterlife (that is, being in the presence of God, hopefully with all those who are similarly rewarded) is possible.

according to christianity, that is

In all fairness, The Parkus Empire is asking what is believed according to Christianity. There are other belief systems, certainly.

yeah but not a great solution for all the people who lived before jesus, at the time of jesus but no where near the holy land, and after jesus in places where christianity doesnt reach.

and it sure plays out like a fuck-up doenst it. im sure YOU can buy the "oops i meant to do that" theory of the story but all i see is fuckup and eventual fix.

Untrue. As I said, one of the tenets is that people who have never known about Jesus because they never were taught about him still can get into heaven after an exemplary life.

I will have to confess ignorance about those who died before the crucifixion. My feeling would be that it would be retroactive, but I'd have to do some more digging before I could say it with any confidence.

Again, mainstream christianity gets it wrong. Those who died without hearing the gospel will be given the opportunity in the hereafter to accept or reject his word.

Otherwise, God would not be a just god. It would be contrary to his law to deny some of his children salvation solely based on the luck of the draw of when or where they were born. All will hear his word and will have the opportunity accept or reject him.

Again, mainstream christianity gets it wrong. Those who died without hearing the gospel will be given the opportunity in the hereafter to accept or reject his word.Um, isn't that what I've been saying?

Are you saying Catholicism with a knowledge of Lutheranism is not mainstream?

have you read children of hurin yet?not yet. i think of ordering it next week.

Untrue. As I said, one of the tenets is that people who have never known about Jesus because they never were taught about him still can get into heaven after an exemplary life.

I will have to confess ignorance about those who died before the crucifixion. My feeling would be that it would be retroactive, but I'd have to do some more digging before I could say it with any confidence.

read you own statement again. if a person ignorant of jesus lives and EXEMPLARY life, he can still get into heaven. (and i think it does apply to those who lived before jesus)

christians dont have to lead exemplary lives in order to get into heaven. depending on your denomination you either have to have accepted jesus as your personal lord and savior (earing you a get-into-heaven-free card) or you have to have been absolved of your serious sins recently enough to have nothing major on your record when you die.

quite a difference. a relatively good man in india isnt getting into heaven but a relatively bad man who is a christian IS.

Um, isn't that what I've been saying?

Are you saying Catholicism with a knowledge of Lutheranism is not mainstream?

I would consider both Catholicism and Lutheranism as mainstream. While I am no expert in their theology, when I talk to my Catholic and Lutheran friends, I find that they don't understand or believe Christ the way I do. They have been taught many things that I think are outright wrong.

read you own statement again. if a person ignorant of jesus lives and EXEMPLARY life, he can still get into heaven. (and i think it does apply to those who lived before jesus)

christians dont have to lead exemplary lives in order to get into heaven. depending on your denomination you either have to have accepted jesus as your personal lord and savior (earing you a get-into-heaven-free card) or you have to have been absolved of your serious sins recently enough to have nothing major on your record when you die.

quite a difference. a relatively good man in india isnt getting into heaven but a relatively bad man who is a christian IS.

I don't believe in a "get into heaven free" card -- that's just silly. That's as silly as certain absent former members who believed that they were definitely getting into heaven, and that their virulent hatred of people of other hues than their own, abuse of everyone in general, and mysogyny didn't matter and they did not need to follow any kind of morality -- because they somehow were going to heaven no matter what they did.

I still believe that in order to get into heaven I need to live a life following Christ's example -- being accepting of those whom society may not accept, helping others whom I can see need help, loving others and treating them with the same respect I wish to have....

I don't know where you get the idea that a relatively good man elsewhere isn't getting into heaven -- that's not in any teaching I've ever had.

I would consider both Catholicism and Lutheranism as mainstream. While I am no expert in their theology, when I talk to my Catholic and Lutheran friends, I find that they don't understand or believe Christ the way I do. They have been taught many things that I think are outright wrong.

For example?

I don't believe in a "get into heaven free" card -- that's just silly.
I still believe that in order to get into heaven I need to live a life following Christ's example -- being accepting of those whom society may not accept, helping others whom I can see need help, loving others and treating them with the same respect I wish to have....

I don't know where you get the idea that a relatively good man elsewhere isn't getting into heaven -- that's not in any teaching I've ever had.

I believe you are correct. The good man in India will have his chance to accept Christ, whether in this body or as a spirit. God loves all his children.

I believe you are correct. The good man in India will have his chance to accept Christ, whether in this body or as a spirit. God loves all his children.

The difference as I understand it is that since I have had the teachings of Christ, actually the standards for me are higher than a person who has never had the opportunity.

I believe you are correct. The good man in India will have his chance to accept Christ, whether in this body or as a spirit. God loves all his children.You mean, God would love all his children, if he weren't just an invented figure...

I don't believe in a "get into heaven free" card -- that's just silly. That's as silly as certain absent former members who believed that they were definitely getting into heaven, and that their virulent hatred of people of other hues than their own, abuse of everyone in general, and mysogyny didn't matter and they did not need to follow any kind of morality -- because they somehow were going to heaven no matter what they did.

I still believe that in order to get into heaven I need to live a life following Christ's example -- being accepting of those whom society may not accept, helping others whom I can see need help, loving others and treating them with the same respect I wish to have....


i included the "once saved always saved" thing because some christians believe that.



I don't know where you get the idea that a relatively good man elsewhere isn't getting into heaven -- that's not in any teaching I've ever had.


youre the one who used the word exemplary. what does it mean?

what is the point of being christian if everyone in the world gets in if they pass some minimum standard of behavior? sure its nice to be on the right side religiously but its also nice to sleep in every sunday, if it doesnt really matter why should i bother?

I believe you are correct. The good man in India will have his chance to accept Christ, whether in this body or as a spirit. God loves all his children.

isnt that mormon doctrine?

i included the "once saved always saved" thing because some christians believe that.




youre the one who used the word exemplary. what does it mean?

what is the point of being christian if everyone in the world gets in if they pass some minimum standard of behavior? sure its nice to be on the right side religiously but its also nice to sleep in every sunday, if it doesnt really matter why should i bother?

Why you bother (or why you don't) is completely up to you.

The point of being a Christian is to follow the moral guidelines Jesus suggested and to believe that by following them, we'll be rewarded (I tend to believe we're rewarded by being better human beings). You make it sound like it's some kind of "I'm better than you" contest. If a person seriously gets what being a Christian is all about, it's not EXCLUSIVE, it's INCLUSIVE.

ex·em·pla·ry
–adjective
1. worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary conduct.
2. serving as a warning: an exemplary penalty.
3. serving as an illustration or specimen; illustrative; typical: The sentences read are exemplary of the style of the essay as a whole.
4. serving as a model or pattern: The authoritative and exemplary text of the work is in the Bodleian Library at Oxford University.
5. of, pertaining to, or composed of exempla: the exemplary literature of the medieval period.

Why you bother (or why you don't) is completely up to you.

The point of being a Christian is to follow the moral guidelines Jesus suggested and to believe that by following them, we'll be rewarded (I tend to believe we're rewarded by being better human beings). You make it sound like it's some kind of "I'm better than you" contest. If a person seriously gets what being a Christian is all about, it's not EXCLUSIVE, it's INCLUSIVE.

ex·em·pla·ry
–adjective
1. worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary conduct.
2. serving as a warning: an exemplary penalty.
3. serving as an illustration or specimen; illustrative; typical: The sentences read are exemplary of the style of the essay as a whole.
4. serving as a model or pattern: The authoritative and exemplary text of the work is in the Bodleian Library at Oxford University.
5. of, pertaining to, or composed of exempla: the exemplary literature of the medieval period.

so which definition of exemplary were you using when you said that exemplary people who have never heard of jesus (and what about those, like gandhi who have heard of him and rejected christianity) will still get into heaven? surely not #2, #3, #4, or #5.

maybe you need a different sentence than the one you used. it implies things that dont seem to be included when you explain yourself further.

so which definition of exemplary were you using when you said that exemplary people who have never heard of jesus (and what about those, like gandhi who have heard of him and rejected christianity) will still get into heaven? surely not #2, #3, #4, or #5.

maybe you need a different sentence than the one you used. it implies things that dont seem to be included when you explain yourself further.

And what part of #1 seems to be inconsistent with what I said?
Honestly, when we get to the point where you imply that I don't understand the word that I use, and then act as if it doesn't apply in the context that I used it, it's pretty nitpickily ridiculous.

Can you at least find something important to disagree with me about rather than your forgetting that exemplary means worthy of imitation and an example to be followed?