NationStates Jolt Archive

Which side are you talking about again? Neither side is exactly trying very hard for peace.

This is all too true. Isreal's eye for an eye attitude only helps to fuel terrorist animosity and works to counter all efforts toward a two-state solution.

If either side really wants peace, they eventually have to look past a violent acts, and make efforts to open a dialog. The Isreali's can't end it their military just because a couple of their soldiers are kidnapped or attacked, and the Palestinians (Hamas and others) can't sent in suicide bombers just because a fence is being built or Isreali settlers are moving in. Both sides have to commit themselves whole-heartedly to peace first, and start to seek a diplomatic solution to their problems, not military or violent solutions.

And yet corruption played more of a factor in the election of Hamas than a desire in not seeing a two state solution.

Which only proves my point. The Palestinian people are not completely interested in a two-state solution, although it is something they would like to see. It is really a sad situation, you can either keep the violence in your lives, and hope for a better life, or you can accept the corruption and gain more independence.

Personally, I would take the independence, then worry about cleaning up the mess later.

I'm inclined to believe that the Israeli government and Hamas are scratching each other's backs at the expense of the Palestinian people.

Israel continues its draconian collective punishment approach in dealing with Hamas-sponsored or condoned attacks, which in turn incites Hamas to scream and bitch about Zionist occupation and oppression and how they're trying to destroy the Palestinians. That of course will drive a few impressionable Palestinians to join up with the cause, in all likelihood taking part in the attacks. And those attacks in turn will give the Israeli government justification for not having to make any real serious selfless concessions towards offering peace to the Palestinian people.

Israel gets to wash its hands of treating the Palestinians like human beings, and Hamas gets its Zionist scapegoat to continue remaining in power and popularity as champions of the oppressed and hopeless.

And who takes it up the ass all this time? The common Palestinian people.


This, I believe, is the reality of the situation, and until someone, on either side, finally steps up, shows some courage and says no more the Roadmap for Middle East Peace will go no where.

Which only proves my point. The Palestinian people are not completely interested in a two-state solution, although it is something they would like to see.

Actually no. It does not prove your point. I stated that corruption played more of a factor than not seeing a two state solution. How does that prove your point?

To sum it up: Israelis do not want peace.
Err, no, to sum it up, the leaders of the mainstream political parties do not want peace, mainly because a war keeps anyone in power. Even George W. Bush got a second term - were it not for the various wars in the world that the US is involved in, he wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

Actually no. It does not prove your point. I stated that corruption played more of a factor than not seeing a two state solution. How does that prove your point?

Because it shows that the Palestinian people are not committed to the two-start solution.

As I stated, it they were actually committed in a two-state solution they would take action to reach that goal.

Electing Hamas to root out government corruption is a distinct step away from that goal, because Hamas has always denied the existence of Isreal.

Hence, proof that the Palestinian people are not truely committed to having a two-state solution. They can favor it, but until they take action to actually make it happen, by electing a group that will actually work towards it, they are not truly committed to seeing it happen.

Because it shows that the Palestinian people are not committed to the two-start solution.

As I stated, it they were actually committed in a two-state solution they would take action to reach that goal.

Electing Hamas to root out government corruption is a distinct step away from that goal, because Hamas has always denied the existence of Isreal.

Hence, proof that the Palestinian people are not truely committed to having a two-state solution. They can favor it, but until they take action to actually make it happen, by electing a group that will actually work towards it, they are not truly committed to seeing it happen.

On the other hand Fateh hadn't exactly made huge progress towards a two state solution, Israel gave up some settlements and built others if I remember rightly. Politics is rarely single issue, and when the people giving you money to buy food for your family say they could do good things in Government while the other flounders about not really helping you at all, it'd take an awful lot to not vote for the first one.

Err, no, to sum it up, the leaders of the mainstream political parties do not want peace, mainly because a war keeps anyone in power. Even George W. Bush got a second term - were it not for the various wars in the world that the US is involved in, he wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

Pretty much.

Hamas is also retardedly short-sighted. If they someone how managed to pull off the destruction of Israel as a state then what? The Palestinians don't have shit for a military and you know Israel's neighbors- Syria especially- is going for a land grab and the Palestinians are fucked again back in Square One.

To sum it up: Israelis do not want peace.
I think both sides want peace, but don't trust the other (or simply hate them too much) and are unwilling to sacrifice anything to make that peace happen; Security (understandable), power, land, water, money etc etc.

As such, things will be at an impasse for quite some time still...

Israel proves once again it's not interested in peace.

Neither side is. They've both sunk into a perpetual cesspool of violence that it's nearly impossible to draw them out of.

Hamas is also retardedly short-sighted. If they someone how managed to pull off the destruction of Israel as a state then what? The Palestinians don't have shit for a military and you know Israel's neighbors- Syria especially- is going for a land grab and the Palestinians are fucked again back in Square One.

WOW!! I'm actually agreeing with Gauthier here.

The problem with the whole "neither side" thing is this - one is occupying the other. While many of the elements of the argument are true, the fact remains that while one party inflicts its rule - by force - on another, that party is the aggressor.

Meanwhile.....this out today
The international Red Cross has privately accused Israel of reshaping Jerusalem to further its own interests, in violation of international law.
A leaked ICRC report says Israeli policy has far-reaching humanitarian consequences for Palestinians living under occupation in East Jerusalem.

Israel captured East Jerusalem in 1967, and the territory is regarded as occupied land under international law.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6658799.stm

I think both sides want peace, but don't trust the other (or simply hate them too much) and are unwilling to sacrifice anything to make that peace happen; Security (understandable), power, land, water, money etc etc.

As such, things will be at an impasse for quite some time still...What more do you want Palestinians to sacrifice? Haven't they bled enough for Jewish desires?
Israel must end the occupation and accept the Green Line as the permanent borders. If Israel does not want that, it should be erased entirely and the Jews should go somewhere else (preferably to somewhere in the US).

What more do you want Palestinians to sacrifice? Haven't they bled enough for Jewish desires?
Israel must end the occupation and accept the Green Line as the permanent borders.

That will only happen when the fucking terrorists stop blowing up innocent men, women, and children in Israel.

If Israel does not want that, it should be erased entirely and the Jews should go somewhere else (preferably to somewhere in the US).

Now you are advocating Genocide and ethnic clensing. OUCH!!!

That will only happen when the fucking terrorists stop blowing up innocent men, women, and children in Israel.


And, border raids aside, that took off when who occupied where, exactly?

What more do you want Palestinians to sacrifice?
The desire to get revenge. Maybe some lands as well, but primarily the desire for revenge.

The desire to get revenge. Maybe some lands as well, but primarily the desire for revenge.Not revenge. Full compensation.

Not revenge. Full compensation.

No, revenge. That's the desire that needs to be left behind. It's a feeling that's quite alive in some palestinian circles.

No, revenge. That's the desire that needs to be left behind. It's a feeling that's quite alive in some palestinian circles.And? What do you expect? Jews started the aggression by coming to a foreign land to create a state and push aside those who lived there prior. Would anyone not want to retaliate if such injustice happened to them? Even more so after 80 years of continued intrusion?

And? What do you expect? Jews started the aggression by coming to a foreign land to create a state and push aside those who lived there prior. Would anyone not want to retaliate? After 80 years of continued intrusion?

Now what did I say above?
...unwilling to sacrifice anything to make that peace happen...

Not that the desire for revenge isn't understandable, but there is a choice: Peace or revenge. As the situation is now - They can't have both.

Now what did I say above?


Not that the desire for revenge isn't understandable, but there is a choice: Peace or revenge. As the situation is now - They can't have both.

Now you know about feeding them.......

Now what did I say above?


Not that the desire for revenge isn't understandable, but there is a choice: Peace or revenge. As the situation is now - They can't have both.Just like the Israelis can't have both: peace and the West Bank.

Now you know about feeding them.......
Righty-O.
Just like the Israelis can't have both: peace and the West Bank.
See my post above.

See my post above.You said that Palestinians need to give up more land. I say they already gave up 78% of their land. If that's still not enough for the Jews they can all go to hell.

You said that Palestinians need to give up more land. I say they already gave up 78% of their land. If that's still not enough for the Jews they can all go to hell.
That was in response to your specific question regarding the palestinians. See my original post if you're still confused.

Not revenge. Full compensation.

They have to give up their desire for revenge if they want to have negotiations and Israel has to stop their attacks as well.

No, revenge. That's the desire that needs to be left behind. It's a feeling that's quite alive in some palestinian circles.

Here here. *hands Gravlen a cookie*

Hamas is also retardedly short-sighted. If they someone how managed to pull off the destruction of Israel as a state then what? The Palestinians don't have shit for a military and you know Israel's neighbors- Syria especially- is going for a land grab and the Palestinians are fucked again back in Square One.

Politicians really can't win can they, if they stick to their ideals they get called impractical, if they go for the practical approach they get called sell outs.

/useless post.

"The Israeli authorities are planning to build three new Jewish neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem, an area regarded as occupied land under international law.

The plan, which has yet to receive final approval, would involve building about 20,000 homes. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6645777.stm


Though far less spectacular than bombings, air-strikes and the like, its with this that the real and lasting gains are made by the occupiers. And due to its less spectacular nature, it isnt seen as the context when the inevitable violent backlash occurs.

:mad:

It appears that cruelty has a human heart
Everyone's raging to take part
No matter how many men we kill
The human heart is hungry still

:headbang:

Here here. *hands Gravlen a cookie*

Mmmm... Cookie :fluffle:

Lets just give the Israelies Wyoming or North Dakota

We don't really need either of those states, and then they could have a homeland where they aren't at risk of being attacked, and of course, the Palestinians get ther homeland back.

Tell me how this is not a perfect plan, I dare you.

Lets just give the Israelies Wyoming or North Dakota

We don't really need either of those states, and then they could have a homeland where they aren't at risk of being attacked, and of course, the Palestinians get ther homeland back.

Tell me how this is not a perfect plan, I dare you.

The jews will not go for it and if you want to implement that, you are going to have one hell of a fight on your hands.

You said that Palestinians need to give up more land. I say they already gave up 78% of their land. If that's still not enough for the Jews they can all go to hell.

O yes "the Jews".......I'm suprised you didnt use the singular.

Lets just give the Israelies Wyoming or North Dakota

We don't really need either of those states, and then they could have a homeland where they aren't at risk of being attacked, and of course, the Palestinians get ther homeland back.

Tell me how this is not a perfect plan, I dare you.
How do you get seven million Israelis to leave their country?

How do you get seven million Israelis to leave their country?

That question sounds like the start of a truly tasteless Nazi Joke.

That question sounds like the start of a truly tasteless Nazi Joke.
:eek:

I've been Godwinned....

How do you get seven million Israelis to leave their country?

Any number of ways. A great flood. It being ground zero of a 500m diameter nickel ferrous meteor. Suddenly making their land not kosher. Buy it all up and condemn the place.

Most require some kind of godlike intervention though.

How about introducing kangeroos?

How about introducing kangeroos?

Allow me to respond with a point-by-point rebuttal:
1. The IDF will thank you for the target practice.
2. It's spelled kangaroos.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Suddenly making their land not kosher.

They're Jews. Not earthworms. Kosher is a dietary thing.

They have to give up their desire for revenge if they want to have negotiations and Israel has to stop their attacks as well.First the reason for revenge must be removed, then stopping the revenge can be negotiated. It is Jewish/Israeli attitude and conduct that makes the existence of Israel a crime and all of its supporters criminals. Remove the Jewish/Israeli desire for land in Palestine and the revenge will become unnecessary. Jews have caused and started the aggression, now they must stop it without further aggression. Revert to the Green Line and give sovereignty to the Palestinian Arabs and compensate them for all they have suffered because of the Jewish intrusion in the last 100+ years.

How do you get seven million Israelis to leave their country?Just tell them that G-d wills it, and that he does not in fact want them there as they chose to believe when they came there en masse. One messy conquest of Canaan by a bunch of people dubbed Israel is enough. And the choice of the name "Israel" says a lot about their nature and intentions.

Allow me to respond with a point-by-point rebuttal:
2. It's spelled kangaroos.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I spelt the name of one of the most well known animals in my country!

Damn, shows how much attention I was paying to this thread...

i don't understand why today's israel doesn't want peace. clearly by such acts it does not. somehow i'm pretty much real sure this is NOT what the refugees from hitler's holocaust had in mind.

i know why america's pseudo-conservatives don't. that want a world dictatorship with themselves in charge. which would be messed up. is already messing everything up.

but israel i just can't figgure.
i mean i can understand their wanting to disarm neighbors who might not entirely approve of their existence, by why go out of their way to provoke violence against them and prevent peace?

i don't see anyone gaining anything out of this, other then a few corporcratic mafia dons, at the expense of everyone, and i mean EVERYone, else.

=^^=
.../\...

First the reason for revenge must be removed, then stopping the revenge can be negotiated.

No first it is to give up revenge. That is what is needed first. Violence begats violence. Any person knows that. That is why we are in this circle. Once the terrorist attacks stop, then we can finally get the IDF to stop their attacks and peace negotiations can start. One cannot expect Israel to negotiate when one of the parties involved is constantly lobbing rockets into Israel (80 in three days?)

It is Jewish/Israeli attitude and conduct that makes the existence of Israel a crime and all of its supporters criminals.

It makes those supporting the slaughter of innocent men, women, and children accomplasses to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Go clean your gas chamber.

Remove the Jewish/Israeli desire for land in Palestine and the revenge will become unnecessary.

remove Hamas's desire to destroy Israel and IDF attacks become unnecessary.

Jews have caused and started the aggression, now they must stop it without further aggression.

The place has been a mess even before 1948.

Green Line and give sovereignty to the Palestinian Arabs and compensate them for all they have suffered because of the Jewish intrusion in the last 100+ years.

I would not go to the last100 years as the state of Israel has only been in existence for 60.

No first it is to give up revenge. That is what is needed first. Violence begats violence. Any person knows that. That is why we are in this circle. Once the terrorist attacks stop, then we can finally get the IDF to stop their attacks and peace negotiations can start. One cannot expect Israel to negotiate when one of the parties involved is constantly lobbing rockets into Israel (80 in three days?)


And as I said at the start of thread re the building of settlements - when the backlash comes, the context is forgotten.

Every "quiet period" has seen an increase in settlement building. Arafats inaction in the face of this was one of the reasons Hamas was elected. IDF planes targeting Hamas while ignoring Fatah will not soon be forgotten either.

And as I said at the start of thread re the building of settlements - when the backlash comes, the context is forgotten.

Every "quiet period" has seen an increase in settlement building. Arafats inaction in the face of this was one of the reasons Hamas was elected. IDF planes targeting Hamas while ignoring Fatah will not soon be forgotten either.

Not IDF's fault that Fatah recognized Israel and Hamas has not. Not Israel's fault that Hamas has launched rockets into Israel which precipitated IDF's response against Hamas. You attack the people that are attacking you. Hamas is attacking Israel and thus the IDF attacks Hamas.

See how this works?

Not IDF's fault that Fatah recognized Israel and Hamas has not. Not Israel's fault that Hamas has launched rockets into Israel which precipitated IDF's response against Hamas. You attack the people that are attacking you. Hamas is attacking Israel and thus the IDF attacks Hamas.

See how this works?

I'm fully aware how this works. Fatah used to hold a similar (though more secular position) to Hamas. Israel refused to deal with them for years, and even when it eventually did, building settlements continued, and as Arafat remained ineffective against it, the peoplke began to drift to Hamas. The Americans effectively blocked the reformist PLO candidate running against Abbas. The people turned to Hamas. Now as the IDF and Fatah are seen as co-operating......

Meh, I don't care. I don't feel one ounce of sorrow for Palestinians, nor their causes, and don't think the rest of the Arab world does either. They only say they do for political purposes, but if the other Arab's feel for the Palestinians so, then why do they expell them from their countries?

Palestinians act like animals, and so there will be no peace, not until they decide to be civilized.

Palestinians act like animals, and so there will be no peace, not until they decide to be civilized.

Animals eh? Didn't know animals knew how to construct homemade rockets or bombs....

Anyway, all this coming from the guy who brands Nelson Mandela a terrorist but feels state actions can never be so.

Palestinians act like animals, and so there will be no peace, not until they decide to be civilized.What civilized measures do you suggest to get rid of an occupying and land grabbing force?

Animals eh? Didn't know animals knew how to construct homemade rockets or bombs....
What amuses me here is that you could have said anything to defend against how "human and civilized" Palestinians are, instead you showed me their humanity and civility with....how good they are at making homemade rockets or bombs....:rolleyes::D
Anyway, all this coming from the guy who brands Nelson Mandela a terrorist but feels state actions can never be so.
Yes well, he used terrorism, and if I'm not mistaken car bombings, so yes, that makes him a terrorist. Anyway, America supported South Africa...and it's not like South Africa's any better of a nation now after their de facto revolution. Let's see....White South Africa: Only the Blacks were poor, only the Blacks had AIDS, Corruption was much lower, murder rate was much lower, Economy booms, becomes the best nation in Africa....
Black South Africa: Everyone is poor and has AIDs, Whites leave because of reverse racism, and take with them the ability and knowledge to run the country (since they built it), plus all the money of the country (because they earned it)....corruption is insane, and the murder rate is probably the worst in the world, get's worse and worse every year.....ect

What civilized measures do you suggest to get rid of an occupying and land grabbing force?
Hmm...well I must first question your question, how occuyping and land grabbing is buying the land and dividing it up via U.N. Resolution, then only after being attacked in an attempt to wipe your existance off the earth, spread your borders to secure your terroritry and then fighting what seems like an eternal war of defense?

And don't say it's not war of defense, Israel may wage offensive skirmashes, but its CAUSE is to exist, and the Arab cause it to have it cease to exist, THUS, at most basic level, Israel's cause is defensive.

What amuses me here is that you could have said anything to defend against how "human and civilized" Palestinians are, instead you showed me their humanity and civility with....how good they are at making homemade rockets or bombs....:rolleyes::D

But instead I showed how inane your analogy was.

Yes well, he used terrorism, and if I'm not mistaken car bombings, so yes, that makes him a terrorist.


Well I'm glad you can finally admit to the Israeli state being terrorists then. :)

"terrorist" is often a matter of opinion. As they are occupied and clearly being colonised they have a right to defend themselves and expel thje occupiers.


You can see how Israel responds above. Neither does it explain or justify 20,000 houses in somebody elses land.

Except it isn't Palestinian land anymore. It belongs to Israel. Through a series of wars they won that land from their Arab enemies. And I believe that all the wars in which they won that land (except the six day war, which was a preemptive strike) where defensive endevors against all or most of the Muslim nations in the Mid east and Egypt from Africa. And I have no doubt that the rest of the Islamic world supported them. Just because Israel is the bigger nation doesn't mean it is the aggressor.

And if I'm not mistaken, even the bullshitters in the UN have recognized Hamas as a terror organization.

Hmm...well I must first question your question, how occuyping and land grabbing is buying the land and dividing it up via U.N. Resolution, then only after being attacked in an attempt to wipe your existance off the earth, spread your borders to secure your terroritry and then fighting what seems like an eternal war of defense?
And don't say it's not war of defense, Israel may wage offensive skirmashes, but its CAUSE is to exist, and the Arab cause it to have it cease to exist, THUS, at most basic level, Israel's cause is defensive.How can something be defended that did not even exist prior to the "defense" ?
The cause of this conflict is the ideologically motivated Jewish desire to create and maintain a Jewish state in Palestine, regardless of the population that already lived there.
If the UN had given the Jews half of Pennsylvania without ever asking the population of Pennsylvania, what would the US have done? And how would you think about such an act?
Or what would you say if suddenly a group of people would immigrate to Pennsylvania en masse with the set aim to create a state there regardless of the population already living there? Wouldn't you see that as an aggression?

Except it isn't Palestinian land anymore. It belongs to Israel. Through a series of wars they won that land from their Arab enemies. And I believe that all the wars in which they won that land (except the six day war, which was a preemptive strike) where defensive endevors against all or most of the Muslim nations in the Mid east and Egypt from Africa. And I have no doubt that the rest of the Islamic world supported them. Just because Israel is the bigger nation doesn't mean it is the aggressor.

And if I'm not mistaken, even the bullshitters in the UN have recognized Hamas as a terror organization.

Land by theft, murder and Terrorism by Stern and Irgun. Assination of Peace Negotiators (Count Bernadotte of Sweden), Ethnic cleansing of villages such as Deir Yassim. If you accept arguement that you can take someone elses land by force then the world is a sorry place. Israel is a terrorist state is it any surprise that resistance takes the form of terrorism.

....racist bilge.......

Sez the one who didn't like what he saw on his 'school trip' to the middle east and seems to have it in for any colour other than white....

Let's see....White South Africa: Only the Blacks were poor, only the Blacks had AIDS, Corruption was much lower, murder rate was much lower, Economy booms, becomes the best nation in Africa....

And I typed that about your racism before I clicked on to the next page and read that bit above.....

Except it isn't Palestinian land anymore. It belongs to Israel. Through a series of wars they won that land from their Arab enemies. And I believe that all the wars in which they won that land (except the six day war, which was a preemptive strike) where defensive endevors against all or most of the Muslim nations in the Mid east and Egypt from Africa. And I have no doubt that the rest of the Islamic world supported them. Just because Israel is the bigger nation doesn't mean it is the aggressor.

And if I'm not mistaken, even the bullshitters in the UN have recognized Hamas as a terror organization.

The UN also thinks that the West Bank, Gaza and Arab East Jerusalem does not in fact belong to Israel. And by that I mean that about 175-180 nations don't.

Sez the one who didn't like what he saw on his 'school trip' to the middle east and seems to have it in for any colour other than white....
Actually, it wasnt a school trip...and yes, being opposed to a cause which wants to wipe the existance off Israel off the map directly translates to "having it in for any color other than White.":rolleyes: Or perhaps I have it in for any color other than White because I don't beleive South Africa is a better country, now that is is multicultural and rainbow....:rolleyes:

And I typed that about your racism before I clicked on to the next page and read that bit above.....
So it's false, then?

Meh, I don't care. I don't feel one ounce of sorrow for Palestinians, nor their causes, and don't think the rest of the Arab world does either. They only say they do for political purposes, but if the other Arab's feel for the Palestinians so, then why do they expell them from their countries?

Palestinians act like animals, and so there will be no peace, not until they decide to be civilized.

What is it with trolls and Israel/Palestine topics?

So it's false, then?

That you're a racist?

Animals eh? Didn't know animals knew how to construct homemade rockets or bombs....

Chimpanzees have developed pointed sticks, it's only a matter of time before they master explosives.

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/f/f6/Armed_monkeys.jpg

What is it with trolls and Israel/Palestine topics?
Actually, I'm not a "troll"...and I've been around here longer than you, it seems. The only trolls that troll these topics are the ones who call for Israelis to give into Arab peace demands, when their agenda is clearly the destruction of the Israeli state to begin with..thus, in Arab terms, the only peace in the middle east will be a peace without a state of Israel.
That you're a racist?
Is what I said about ZA false, and if so, how so?

Is what I said about ZA false, and if so, how so?

You're saying South Africa is now a shithole because Black South Africans are in power.

Completely disregarding the authoritarian regime that ruled during aparthied, during which time the country was still a shithole under White rule.

Nice to know you're pro-terrorist, pro-authoritarian and also pro-racist policies.

Actually, I'm not a "troll"...and I've been around here longer than you, it seems. The only trolls that troll these topics are the ones who call for Israelis to give into Arab peace demands, when their agenda is clearly the destruction of the Israeli state to begin with..thus, in Arab terms, the only peace in the middle east will be a peace without a state of Israel.

1. Longevity =/= Not a troll.
2. This is my third incarnation, I've been here on and off since about 2003 IIRC.

You're saying South Africa is now a shithole because Black South Africans are in power.
No, saying it is much WORSE now that Black South Africans are in power...and admitting that it still had many problems before. After all, it still was/is Africa.

Now, is it true that South Africa is a worse nation now that Black South Africans rule the nation. There will be no need to sidestep the answer. If false, then how so?

God, you just hate people being free that much don't you.
Now, is it true that South Africa is a worse nation now that Black South Africans rule the nation. There will be no need to sidestep the answer. If false, then how so?

Now, is it true that South Africa is a worse nation now that Black South Africans rule the nation. There will be no need to sidestep the answer. If false, then how so?

God, you just hate people being free that much don't you.

timewarp

Actually, I'm not a "troll"...and I've been around here longer than you, it seems. The only trolls that troll these topics are the ones who call for Israelis to give into Arab peace demands, when their agenda is clearly the destruction of the Israeli state to begin with..thus, in Arab terms, the only peace in the middle east will be a peace without a state of Israel.
No, really, you're wrong. There are bona fide trolls on both sides - just like the real situation.

And you fail to acknowledge the true and realistic arab peace proposals. They do exists. The problem is that fanatics on the Israeli side won't accept them. You know, some of the "This land was given to us by God" types?

Both sides need to get a fucking grip, moderate themselves and simply want peace before anything can happen. Both sides must be willing to sacrifice somethings...

Actually, it wasnt a school trip...and yes, being opposed to a cause which wants to wipe the existance off Israel off the map directly translates to "having it in for any color other than White.":rolleyes: Or perhaps I have it in for any color other than White because I don't beleive South Africa is a better country, now that is is multicultural and rainbow

Actually the post concerned African countries, followed by one about how whites were the victim regarding black violence or something similar..all done in classic stereotypical racist style. Thats when I put the pointy hood and facial acne beside your Nom de Guerre in my little mental note book. Anyhoo.....


The only trolls that troll these topics are the ones who call for Israelis to give into Arab peace demands, when their agenda is clearly the destruction of the Israeli state to begin with

Nothing clear about it. Theres much hype of the extremists in order to undermine the more moderate factions.


Now, is it true that South Africa is a worse nation now that Black South Africans rule the nation.

Its not much different, only the problems are not confined to the townships. Now fuck off and start a thread elsewhere about it please.

God, you just hate people being free that much don't you.

The guy was a cheerleader for Pinochet's junta and its numerous kidnappings, tortures and murders after all.

Both sides need to get a fucking grip, moderate themselves and simply want peace before anything can happen. Both sides must be willing to sacrifice somethings...Arabs wanted peace since 1916. But all they ended up with was Israel.

And what exactly do you want Palestinian Arabs to sacrifice? Israel already has 78% of their former land and holds the rest under military occupation and under continued illegal settlement efforts.

Arabs wanted peace since 1916. But all they got was Israel.

And what exactly do you want Palestinian Arabs to sacrifice? Israel already has 78% of their former land and holds the rest under military occupation and under continued illegal settlement efforts.

We've been through this before, haven't we? The desire for revenge and the claim to some lands, for starters.

We've been through this before, haven't we? The desire for revenge and the claim to some lands, for starters.That actually amounts to giving up being Palestinians. Palestine is their home, and what you basically want them to do, is to give that up. Too.
78% of what was once Palestine is more than enough for the rogue Jewish state. I really cannot see how you could possibly want to cut out even more for Israel. Don't Palestinians deserve to live?

repeat to you as well:
The cause of this conflict is the ideologically motivated Jewish desire to create and maintain a Jewish state in Palestine, regardless of the population that already lived there.
If the UN had given the Jews half of Pennsylvania without ever asking the population of Pennsylvania, what would the US have done? And how would you think about such an act?
Or what would you say if suddenly a group of people would immigrate to Pennsylvania en masse with the set aim to create a state there regardless of the population already living there? Wouldn't you see that as an aggression?

That actually amounts to giving up being Palestinians. Palestine is their home, and what you basically want them to do, is to give that up. Too.
78% of what was once Palestine is more than enough for the rogue Jewish state. I really cannot see how you could possibly want to cut out even more for Israel. Don't Palestinians deserve to live?
*sigh*

Palestinians are currently demanding all their lands back. 100%. It's a legitimate claim, but if they want peace they should be willing to compromise - i.e. get less than 100%. Just how much they should demand, 75%, 85%, 95%, I can't tell you. But it seems to me that peace won't come if they keep demanding 100%.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

repeat to you as well:
The cause of this conflict is the ideologically motivated Jewish desire to create and maintain a Jewish state in Palestine, regardless of the population that already lived there.
If the UN had given the Jews half of Pennsylvania without ever asking the population of Pennsylvania, what would the US have done? And how would you think about such an act?
Or what would you say if suddenly a group of people would immigrate to Pennsylvania en masse with the set aim to create a state there regardless of the population already living there? Wouldn't you see that as an aggression?
I'd say "My word, where did all these people come from? The party boat isn't scheduled to arrive before tuesday! :eek:"

*That's my way of saying that the issue is more complex than you make it out to be, and I can't be bothered to go through the last hundred years of history of the Middle East.

*sigh*

Palestinians are currently demanding all their lands back. 100%. It's a legitimate claim, but if they want peace they should be willing to compromise - i.e. get less than 100%. Just how much they should demand, 75%, 85%, 95%, I can't tell you. But it seems to me that peace won't come if they keep demanding 100%.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?Right now Palestinians have nothing of what was once Palestine. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Israel holds complete military control over it.
But even Arafat was content with the 22% theoretically left to the Palestinians within the Green Line. But that is apparently not enough for the Israelis. So what the fuck are you talking about? Why can't the fucking Israelis not just get out of the West Bank and Gaza and allow for a sovereign Palestinian state? Because that's not what they ever wanted. They just want all. And you want the Palestinians to just accept that?

I'd say "My word, where did all these people come from? The party boat isn't scheduled to arrive before tuesday! :eek:"

*That's my way of saying that the issue is more complex than you make it out to be, and I can't be bothered to go through the last hundred years of history of the Middle East.

You are making fun of the Palestinians' plight?

Right now Palestinians have nothing of what was once Palestine. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Israel holds complete military control over it.
But even Arafat was content with the 22% theoretically left to the Palestinians within the Green Line. But that is apparently not enough for the Israelis. So what the fuck are you talking about? Why can't the fucking Israelis not just get out of the West Bank and Gaza and allow for a sovereign Palestinian state? Because that's not what they ever wanted. They just want all. And you want the Palestinians to just accept that?



You are making fun of the Palestinians' plight?
...I can see that this is completely pointless. Next time you want a debate on anything instead of just screaming, I advise that you read the post you're responding to slowly.

Have a nice day :)

What civilized measures do you suggest to get rid of an occupying and land grabbing force?

How about turning to peaceful measures? Seems to work alot.

Arabs wanted peace since 1916. But all they ended up with was Israel.

And then the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 unprovokedly. :rolleyes: I see you never can understand that fact.

*sigh*

Palestinians are currently demanding all their lands back. 100%. It's a legitimate claim, but if they want peace they should be willing to compromise - i.e. get less than 100%. Just how much they should demand, 75%, 85%, 95%, I can't tell you. But it seems to me that peace won't come if they keep demanding 100%.

Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Psst!!! he's an anti-semite who wants Israel gone. He will not understand any reason whatsoever. Believe me, I tried it.

...I can see that this is completely pointless. Next time you want a debate on anything instead of just screaming, I advise that you read the post you're responding to slowly.

Have a nice day :)

You will be waitin quite a while for that to happen.

And then the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 unprovokedly. I see you never can understand that fact."Unprovokedly" is just ridiculous. Back then the provocation by the Jews had been going on for half a century already.

"Unprovokedly" is just ridiculous. Back then the provocation by the Jews had been going on for half a century already.

Except for the fact that their state only included the territory that was mandated to them and nothing else. During that same war, Egypt took Gaza and Transjordan took the West Bank.

Do you understand that? Did you know that?

...I can see that this is completely pointless. Next time you want a debate on anything instead of just screaming, I advise that you read the post you're responding to slowly.

Have a nice day :)
Of course this is pointless, since you negate the Palestinian Arabs' right to self-determination.

Of course this is pointless, since you negate the Palestinian Arabs' right to self-determination.

Boy you really are clueless. Nowhere did he do that.

Except for the fact that their state only included the territory that was mandated to them and nothing else. During that same war, Egypt took Gaza and Transjordan took the West Bank.

Do you understand that? Did you know that?The Mandate and the UN division plan were set up without the consent of the population in the area at issue, and are therefore undemocratic and subsequently illegal, and in any case morally wrong. To implant a state into a populated area is a crime. The Jewish immigration was a crime. The Jewish ideology/religion that assumes that Palestine is by right (divine or not) Jewish is criminal and racist. The Jewish desire for statehood at the expense of others was and is a crime. Jewish/Israeli conduct of the past 100 years in Palestine has been a crime. Jews have come to Palestine to remove or kill Arabs, as they could not have planned the creation of a state without planning to create the space for that, which would necessarily require the cleansing of the present population. That very purpose was and is a crime. Israelis' hands and minds are covered in Arab blood. But I suppose that's all to your delight.

Boy you really are clueless. Nowhere did he do that.If the Arabs had been allowed self-determination after the end of the Ottoman Empire, there would be no artificial Jewish state in Palestine. But since he supports Israel he automatically denies that right. And he does also, since he wants Israel to take even more and always more. He is not content with the Green Line as the permanent border. He demands that the Arabs give up more.

The Mandate and the UN division plan were set up without the consent of the population in the area at issue, and are therefore undemocratic and subsequently illegal, and in any case morally wrong.

Illegal according to what law?

To implant a state into a populated area is a crime. The Jewish immigration was a crime.

According to what law?

The Jewish ideology/religion that assumes that Palestine is by right Jewish is criminal.

According to what law?

The Jewish desire for statehood at the expense of others was and is a crime.

According to what law?

Jewish/Israeli conduct of the past 100 years in Palestine has been a crime.

According to what law?

Jews have come to Palestine to remove or kill Arabs, as they could not have planned the creation of a state without planning to create the space for that, which would necessarily require the cleansing of the present population.

You are delusional and not according to the Brits who was incharge of the region since the end of the First World War nor the UN.

That very purpose was and is a crime.

According to what law?

Israelis' hands and minds are covered in Arab blood. But I suppose that's all to your delight.

WRONG!!!

If the Arabs had been allowed self-determination after the end of the Ottoman Empire, there would be no artificial Jewish state in Palestine.

Based on what evidence?

But since he supports Israel he automatically denies that right.

Based on what? Just because someone supports Israel does not mean they want to deny the rights to Palestinians. But then again, you cannot understand that.

And he does also, since he wants Israel to take even more and always more. He is not content with the Green Line as the permanent border. He demands that the Arabs give up more.

Based on what evidence?

Based on what evidence?What evidence does it take to allow someone self-determination? It takes decency. But that's something you cannot comprehend.

Based on what? Just because someone supports Israel does not mean they want to deny the rights to Palestinians. But then again, you cannot understand that.If someone supports Israel he maintains the position that taking away land and resources from Arabs is right, and he puts the invaders' desires above the rights of the prior inhabitants to be unharmed and to determine their own fate as a people.

Based on what evidence?He said so, buttwipe.

What evidence does it take to allow someone self-determination? It takes decency. But that's something you cannot comprehend.

Then I guess the Palestinians forfeit that because they have shown no decency because they intentionally blow up innocent men, women, and children and their maps do not include Israel. When they stop doing so, then they will have earned the right to self-determination.

If someone supports Israel he maintains the position that taking away land and resources from Arabs is right, and he puts the invaders' desires above the rights of the prior inhabitants to be unharmed and to determine their own fate as a people.

based on what evidence?

He said so, buttwipe.

Link it.

OH and what about the law you were using when it comes to what you were saying about the Israeli's being criminals.

Then I guess the Palestinians forfeit that because they have shown no decency because they intentionally blow up innocent men, women, and children and their maps do not include Israel. When they stop doing so, then they will have earned the right to self-determination. No. Arabs had the right to self-determination at least as early as the downfall as the Ottoman Empire. There are no conditions on this right. And this right was severely violated by the immigrating Jews and the imperial powers protecting them.

based on what evidence?Logic. One cannot support Israel and simultaneously portend that the existence of Israel did not require removing the present population from the area.
And then there is always the fact that there was never a need for a Jewish state in the first place. It's just Jewish craving.

Link it.He demanded that Palestinians give up further land. Find it yourself.

OH and what about the law you were using when it comes to what you were saying about the Israeli's being criminals.Who purposely takes something away from others is a criminal.

How about turning to peaceful measures? Seems to work alot.

What, like these ones you ignored before?

“Thanks to the media here for telling the truth…Bring this truth to whatever country you come from!”
These were Mairead Maguire’s words, a Nobel Peace Prize winner from Northern Ireland, just one hour before she was shot with a rubber-coated steel bullet by Israeli Occupation Forces.
http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2007/04/21/april-20-bilin-protest/

Israeli troops have opened fire during a protest by Palestinian demonstrators in the town of Rafah in southern Gaza.
At least 10 people were killed and 60 injured, though some reports put the number of casualties higher.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3728681.stm


And then the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 unprovokedly. I see you never can understand that fact.

And that justifies building colonies outside Israels borders how, exactly?

Then I guess the Palestinians forfeit that because they have shown no decency because they intentionally blow up innocent men, women, and children

By which standard Israel forfeits the right to exist, by both its past and present actions. See how that one works?

The right to self determination is not one that has to be "earned" by committing to pass through some (seemingly ever changing) set of goal posts.

Then I guess the Palestinians forfeit that because they have shown no decency because they intentionally blow up innocent men, women, and children and their maps do not include Israel. When they stop doing so, then they will have earned the right to self-determination.

based on what evidence?

Link it.

OH and what about the law you were using when it comes to what you were saying about the Israeli's being criminals.
Don't worry about it. United Beleriand seems to read what he wants to read, understand what he wants to understand, and fails to / chooses not to understand the nuance between expressions such as "suggest that they must be willing to sacrifice" and "demands".

But then again, he does seem to illustrate one part of the problem in this conflict; He represents the side of the palestinians who are unwilling to enter into negotiations, compromise, or sacrifice anything in order to attain a peaceful resolution to the conflict that both sides can live with. And more scary, he's unwilling to listen and unwilling to understand the arguments against his viewpoints.

People like that can be found on both sides, and are a huge part of the problem...

No. Arabs had the right to self-determination at least as early as the downfall as the Ottoman Empire. There are no conditions on this right. And this right was severely violated by the immigrating Jews and the imperial powers protecting them.

Severely violated based on what International Law of the early to mid-20th Century? I am dying of curiosity and you have yet to provide me an answer.

Logic. One cannot support Israel and simultaneously portend that the existence of Israel did not require removing the present population from the area.

For which your argument is illogical and circular. You left out the possibility that most of us support both a Palestinian State alongside an Israeli State. We denounce the violence on both sides of this conflict and want an end to the fighting to secure peace.

So tell me how it is logical that we cannot support both sides? Oh wait. I know why it is logical to you.

And then there is always the fact that there was never a need for a Jewish state in the first place. It's just Jewish craving.

Based on what evidence?

He demanded that Palestinians give up further land. Find it yourself.

Burden of proof is on you UB. Not on me. You make a claim, you back it up.

Who purposely takes something away from others is a criminal.

Based on what law of the time?

Don't worry about it. United Beleriand seems to read what he wants to read, understand what he wants to understand, and fails to / chooses not to understand the nuance between expressions such as "suggest that they must be willing to sacrifice" and "demands".

But then again, he does seem to illustrate one part of the problem in this conflict; He represents the side of the palestinians who are unwilling to enter into negotiations, compromise, or sacrifice anything in order to attain a peaceful resolution to the conflict that both sides can live with. And more scary, he's unwilling to listen and unwilling to understand the arguments against his viewpoints.

People like that can be found on both sides, and are a huge part of the problem...

You are indeed 100% right.

Israel must solve its border issues with immediate Arab neighbors. No amount of expensive weapons will protect Israel forever. My solution is that Israel should exist but Arabs in Israel should be given the same rights as Israeli Jews. Palestinians should be compensated for property lost. Land grabbing is a further insult to the Palestinians and broadens the conflict between Israel and the Arab world. Israel cannot play the innocent victim and the chief instigator altogether.

Israel must solve its border issues with immediate Arab neighbors.

And their Arab neighbors must recognize Israel in order to actually settle the border issues.

No amount of expensive weapons will protect Israel forever.

So far it has and unless the Arabs actually have better weapons and high level training that the IDF has, the IDF weapons are sufficient.

My solution is that Israel should exist but Arabs in Israel should be given the same rights as Israeli Jews.

Are Jews allowed to vote in the Middle East outside of Israel? Are Jews allowed to be in their government? Arabs are in their government (both in the Knesset, Cabinet, and Supreme Court), allowed to vote, and serve in the IDF. Tell me! Are jews allowed in parliament, cabinet, and military in the Arab nations? Let us not talk about Christians who are also persecuted. Equal rights? What about Equal Rights in the rest of the region?

Palestinians should be compensated for property lost. Land grabbing is a further insult to the Palestinians and broadens the conflict between Israel and the Arab world. Israel cannot play the innocent victim and the chief instigator altogether.

I agree.

Israel doesnt have a problem with Palestinians or Arabs. It has a problem with people who try to destroy their nation and everything in it. Israel has a problem with people who bomb their terraces, buses and markets. Israel also has a problem with people who support these attacks, people who sympathize with these terrorists and the growing anti-Zionism in the world.

Wouldnt you have trouble with people bombing your kid's primary school, all your neighbor nations calling upon your destruction and a world full of Leftist "intellectuals" and swastika waving idiots who are "critical" about Zionism?

If my nation would be under such continuing thread I would hold my gun close, I would accept my son and daughter joining the military because our nation and my family has no other choice but be ready for survival.

Israel ----survival.

If they are as under attack as you say, could you tell me what supermarkets, buses and terraces have been bombed in the last six months and how many were killed?

You might also explain why - if such a state of affairs as you describe exists - Israel is building settlements in amongst the people attacking it....

Israel doesnt have a problem with Palestinians or Arabs. It has a problem with people who try to destroy their nation and everything in it. Israel has a problem with people who bomb their terraces, buses and markets. Israel also has a problem with people who support these attacks, people who sympathize with these terrorists and the growing anti-Zionism in the world.Israel has no problem with maintaining an occupation and keeping the occupied in an non-human status, and with leashing out every now and then randomly killing civilians.
And mind you, anti-Zionism is a good thing, and the only terrorists here are those who have come to Palestine to force their state upon the original population and who deny to the Palestinian Arabs any sovereignty.

Logic. One cannot support Israel and simultaneously portend that the existence of Israel did not require removing the present population from the area.
And then there is always the fact that there was never a need for a Jewish state in the first place. It's just Jewish craving.
Funny, I don't see people in my country being kicked out to make room for immigrants. Not that I'm saying Palestinians weren't removed from the area to create Israel, but to suggest that Israel cannot exist without exclusion of Palestinians is silly.

So... Jews don't need a state. But Palestinians do. Why do Palestinians want a state? Because they have the right to self-determination. Why do Israelis want a state? Because they have the right... oh wait. When Jews do it it's just a 'craving' for their own country. How silly of them.

Israel doesnt have a problem with Palestinians or Arabs. It has a problem with people who try to destroy their nation and everything in it. Israel has a problem with people who bomb their terraces, buses and markets. Israel also has a problem with people who support these attacks, people who sympathize with these terrorists and the growing anti-Zionism in the world.
And Palestinians have a problem with years of military occupation and colonisation. Is 'destroying a nation' acceptable when it is Israel doing it then? There will only be peace when both sides admit - and stop - wrongdoing.

Wouldnt you have trouble with people bombing your kid's primary school, all your neighbor nations calling upon your destruction and a world full of Leftist "intellectuals" and swastika waving idiots who are "critical" about Zionism?
Oh good lord. Out of interest, do you even know what you even mean by the word Zionist, and that most, if not all, of the leftist intellectual conspirators you refer to support the continued existence of the Israeli state in the holy land?

If my nation would be under such continuing thread I would hold my gun close, I would accept my son and daughter joining the military because our nation and my family has no other choice but be ready for survival.
Aye, it is a continuing thread. 24 pages. Only abortion threads are as long.

If they are as under attack as you say, could you tell me what supermarkets, buses and terraces have been bombed in the last six months and how many were killed?

You might also explain why - if such a state of affairs as you describe exists - Israel is building settlements in amongst the people attacking it....

Well, qassam rockets launched from Gaza land in Israel on most days. They're inaccurate and not hugely destructive, so the damage and body count stays very low, but that does count as being under attack.

Don't worry about it. United Beleriand seems to read what he wants to read, understand what he wants to understand, and fails to / chooses not to understand the nuance between expressions such as "suggest that they must be willing to sacrifice" and "demands".

But then again, he does seem to illustrate one part of the problem in this conflict; He represents the side of the palestinians who are unwilling to enter into negotiations, compromise, or sacrifice anything in order to attain a peaceful resolution to the conflict that both sides can live with. And more scary, he's unwilling to listen and unwilling to understand the arguments against his viewpoints.

People like that can be found on both sides, and are a huge part of the problem...

Palestinians are unwilling to enter negotiations? Your are such a major butthole, really. You know pretty well how many times there have been negotiations. Between Arafat, Rabin, Peres, Barak, Sharon, etc. Remember how Arafat and Rabin got the Nobel peace prize? But the Israelis/Jews did not like that. They killed Rabin and then then peace by electing Netanyahu. Any you ask Arabs to sacrifice more? All that Israel ever offered since then was the de-facto annexation of the West Bank but giving no rights to the Palestinians. What Israel offered was some kind of alibi "autonomy" over the hilltops of Samaria, but no infrastructure and no water. So what the fuck are you talking about? Where have you been in the last 25 years? What the fuck do you want the Palestinians to sacrifice MORE? You demand and expect them to give up always more. There is nothing that Palestinians have left to sacrifice, why don't you get that? What "peaceful resolution to the conflict that both sides can live with" are you talking about when you ask always more of the Palestinians but obviously nothing of the Israelis? The Palestinians cannot live with what you suggest. Is that not simple enough for you to understand? The Green Line has been accepted by the Palestinians many times officially and unofficially many times. But why is that not enough for Israel? WHY? Because Palestinians don't deserve the West Bank? Or what? Or is it in fact just that Israel has no and never had any interest in any independent Palestinian political entity? It is Israel that would need to make sacrifices. To return the West Bank and the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, allow the Palestinian refugees back, remove the settlers from the currently occupied territories, compensate the Palestinians for their losses, and finally accept the Green Line as the permanent border of Israel. There can be no compromises about this. 78% of what was once Palestine is more than enough for the Jewish state.

So... Jews don't need a state. No. They can live elsewhere. They can go to the US and remain there.

But Palestinians do. Why do Palestinians want a state? Because they have the right to self-determination. Of course they do. Why should the Arabs who have lived in Palestine when they were finally free of Turkish rule not have had the right to self-determination? The actual population of the area? As opposed to a loosely connected religious group spread over Europe and Russia?

Why do Israelis want a state? Because they have the right... oh wait. When Jews do it it's just a 'craving' for their own country. How silly of them.Jews wanted a state, not Israelis. And their desire rested completely on ideology. That is not self-determination, that is putting their shallow interests above those of others. If it had been just about a state to be left alone, they could have created one in some unpopulated area. But they wanted Palestine all for themselves, and nothing else.

Well, qassam rockets launched from Gaza land in Israel on most days. They're inaccurate and not hugely destructive, so the damage and body count stays very low, but that does count as being under attack.

The body count is also kept low by Israel's health service. They've been forced by necessity to develop more effective ways to treat victims of rockets and suicide bombs.

Palestinians are unwilling to enter negotiations?
*Snip ranting drivel*
You know, you really should learn to read. It does come in handy in everyday life. As does an education, and reading comprehension. But not to worry, when you do learn these things you can come back here and try again.

As of now, however, you are indeed a part of the problem. You keep yourself wilfully ignorant by refusing to read what I say, so it is only fair to expect that you do the same with other posters as well. You rant and rave and refuse to see that you attack everyone, even the ones who might be on "your side" in this. You alienate the moderates, and makes the one who find common ground with your position ashamed of doing so. And because of that, they won't speak up - for fear of being likened to you.

Congratulations. On this forum, at least, you do as much harm to the cause of the Palestinians as anyone ever could. You are worse than a fascist who wants to see every arab dead, because people will rally around the weaker to protect them from such internet-thugs. You, on the other hand, undermines what you claim to be fighting for, and sabotages the rightful fight of the palestinians. You should be ashamed of yourself for the harm you cause, but let's be honest here: You don't really care.

You don't want a debate, and you don't want peace. It's easy to see after just a few posts.

You have proven that you are, indeed, nothing more than a troll. When you grow up and out of that habit, do try again. Because as of this thread - simply put... You fail. Utterly.

Farewell, and good riddance.


And to anybody else passing by, remember this: http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/signs043.gif

Well, qassam rockets launched from Gaza land in Israel on most days. They're inaccurate and not hugely destructive, so the damage and body count stays very low, but that does count as being under attack.

But would you say that the scenario painted by "imported" bears much relation to reality?

But would you say that the scenario painted by "imported" bears much relation to reality?

What scenario? The idea that Israel feels threatened by being surrounded by enemies, under threat of terrorism, and the perception that many people around the world think that removing Israel will make all the problems of the middle east dissapear? I think those things are common fears in Israel and motivate Israel to keep a strong military and respond to threats and provocations with military force. The Israelis remember the holocaust, the pogroms, and the insecurity that comes from being nationless and subject to the whims of the people they lived among. I'm not justifying the building of settlements, but I'm sure that those fears and memories and current attacks from rockets as well as attempts by suicide bombers to enter their country make Israel take a militant stance against the Palestinians and other Arabs.

What scenario? (snip).

The one he typed.

Israel has no problem with maintaining an occupation and keeping the occupied in an non-human status, and with leashing out every now and then randomly killing civilians.

You still going on about that shit? Listen buddy. I see you do not understand anything at all about this conflict short of what you have been brainwashed with. Go back and study fool and leave the rest of us to actually debate intelligently. Your presence is undermining the intelligence level of everyone here.

And mind you, anti-Zionism is a good thing,

No it is not. Anti-zionism means that you do not want a Jewish state at all. That means you are going to have to kill untold number of people just to achieve that. That means either a) Ethnic cleansing or b) genocide, both of which is against international law.

and the only terrorists here are those who have come to Palestine to force their state upon the original population and who deny to the Palestinian Arabs any sovereignty.

Which is complete crap but then, what can I expect from an anti-semite who has no clue as to the complexity of the situation.

Funny, I don't see people in my country being kicked out to make room for immigrants. Not that I'm saying Palestinians weren't removed from the area to create Israel, but to suggest that Israel cannot exist without exclusion of Palestinians is silly.

So... Jews don't need a state. But Palestinians do. Why do Palestinians want a state? Because they have the right to self-determination. Why do Israelis want a state? Because they have the right... oh wait. When Jews do it it's just a 'craving' for their own country. How silly of them.

UB does not understand. He wants self-determination for the Palestinians but he does not want the same for the Jews. If he truly believes in Self-determination for everyone then he has no choice but to allow the same for the Jews. The jews want a state where they are at. That is fine. Heck, they even formed a state within their original borders to begin with. Something that UB does not understand.

BTW UB: You still have not responded to what law you were using to say that the formation of the Jewish state was illegal and all the other shit you are claiming was illegal as well. *and I am not talking about the settlements but the formation of Israel itself. I am still waiting*

Palestinians are unwilling to enter negotiations?

As Yassar Arafat decided to launch a intifada instead of actually talking...

You know pretty well how many times there have been negotiations. Between Arafat, Rabin, Peres, Barak, Sharon, etc. Remember how Arafat and Rabin got the Nobel peace prize? But the Israelis/Jews did not like that. They killed Rabin and then then peace by electing Netanyahu.

And instead of trying to negotiate, they launched a 2nd intifada. Jesus. How many times does it have to be said to you that it does not matter? Arafat launched TWO INTIFADAS when Israel was trying to negotiate a settlement.

As to the peace prize, you forgot to add Shimon Perez to that list. All three got the peace prize.

As to Rabin's Assassination and the end of peace:

The main catalyst in the downfall of the latter was a wave of suicide bombings shortly before the elections; on March 3 and 4, 1996, Palestinians carried out two suicide bombings, killing 32 Israelis, with Peres seemingly unable to stop the attacks.

that is what led to Netanyahu being elected Prime Minister instead of Shimon Perez.

Also, Netanyahu did the following:

As Prime Minister, Netanyahu negotiated with Yasser Arafat in the form of the Wye River Accords (1998).

However, not much was done though Hebron was returned to Palestinian jurisdiction.

Oh and because of his concessions:

Netanyahu was opposed by the political left wing in Israel and also lost support from the right because of his concessions to the Palestinians in Hebron and elsewhere and due to his negotiations with Arafat generally.

So what the hell are you talking about?

The rest of this post I am just going to let die because it is not worth it for me to bash it even further.

You know, you really should learn to read. It does come in handy in everyday life. As does an education, and reading comprehension. But not to worry, when you do learn these things you can come back here and try again.

As of now, however, you are indeed a part of the problem. You keep yourself wilfully ignorant by refusing to read what I say, so it is only fair to expect that you do the same with other posters as well. You rant and rave and refuse to see that you attack everyone, even the ones who might be on "your side" in this. You alienate the moderates, and makes the one who find common ground with your position ashamed of doing so. And because of that, they won't speak up - for fear of being likened to you.

Congratulations. On this forum, at least, you do as much harm to the cause of the Palestinians as anyone ever could. You are worse than a fascist who wants to see every arab dead, because people will rally around the weaker to protect them from such internet-thugs. You, on the other hand, undermines what you claim to be fighting for, and sabotages the rightful fight of the palestinians. You should be ashamed of yourself for the harm you cause, but let's be honest here: You don't really care.

You don't want a debate, and you don't want peace. It's easy to see after just a few posts.

You have proven that you are, indeed, nothing more than a troll. When you grow up and out of that habit, do try again. Because as of this thread - simply put... You fail. Utterly.

Farewell, and good riddance.


And to anybody else passing by, remember this: http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/signs043.gif

Quoted for Fucking TRUTH!!!!

*hands Gravlan as many cookies as h/she wants with the milk to go with it*

As Yassar Arafat decided to launch a intifada instead of actually talking....

No, the Israelis left talks to campaign for the election (Sharon was in opposition). He went on a public visit to the temple mount (despite international pleas that he not do so), that provoked a riot which led to a
2nd intifada.


However, not much was done though Hebron was returned to Palestinian jurisdiction.


Part of Hebron. However there are a few thousand soldiers there to stand by and do nothing when the notoriously fanatical settlers there decide to launch a riot or two and attack Arabs.


I note that you failed to respond to my refutation of your "peaceful methods" post.

You alienate the moderates, and makes the one who find common ground with your position ashamed of doing so. And because of that, they won't speak up - for fear of being likened to you.


Well I'd have to agree with you there. *Hides*