NationStates Jolt Archive

...and it really annoyed me. It was a kids shirt I saw in school. It said, and I quote:

Dear God,
Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?
Signed,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Signed,
God

What the hell, there is no law that says you can't read your Bible or pray in school. You just can't teach religion in school, and for two very good reason: 1: Not everyone is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ect 2: You are there to learn a standard education, not philosophy or theology.

I didn't say anything to the kid, it was just irritating how someone could take such a narrow view on the subject; to claim that there is so much violence in schools because you can't teach Christian religion in school. What is your take on this?

It would annoy me yes but I don't feel like I would have said anything about it to the person

It would annoy me yes but I don't feel like I would have said anything about it to the person

I didn't, I just felt my face go red for a second, and then I walked away.

"I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" .- Voltaire


Let him be, I don't agree with him neither, but he should be allowed to express his point of view, as you are doing here. Why are you "enraged"? You would like to prohibit free speech or what?

"I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" .- Voltaire

A popular minor corruption. What he said is more closely translated as "'I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write"

the kid's a tool, but as long as he doesn't start pushing for school policy to be changed in line with his beliefs i would bother with him.

"I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" .- Voltaire


Let him be, I don't agree with him neither, but he should be allowed to express his point of view, as you are doing here. Why are you "enraged"? You would like to prohibit free speech or what?

I didn't say anything to the kid at all...I wish him no harm at all. It is just that so many people have a narrow point of view on subjects that require a broad perspective. I have nothing against the Christian religion, but it to me, that most Christians believe that if you don't put GOD in every aspect of everyday life then something bad will happen. A lack of faith is not the cause of all the worlds problems, small or large. And to me, as I said, this is what I think most Christians believe.

A popular minor corruption. What he said is more closely translated as "'I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write"

Is there any particular difference between the two?

(I don't mean that as an attack - I'm curious whether you're simply correcting the mistranslation for accuracy, or if there is a way you could argue they mean different things)

the kid's a tool, but as long as he doesn't start pushing for school policy to be changed in line with his beliefs i would bother with him.

I didn't say anything to him, just wanted your opinion on it, you have mine. It is just asinine to even wear a shirt like that.

The shirt is kinda funny. ;)

The shirt is kinda funny. ;)

You think so, not even a little irritated, or do you find in funny that someone could be so narrow minded?

I didn't say anything to him, just wanted your opinion on it, you have mine. It is just asinine to even wear a shirt like that.

i was agreeing with you ;)

Sounds like a "Pull my finger!" shirt..

Is there any particular difference between the two?

(I don't mean that as an attack - I'm curious whether you're simply correcting the mistranslation for accuracy, or if there is a way you could argue they mean different things)

One is what he said, the other is not.

They mean roughly the same thing, but when quoting someone, it is generally best to actually quote their words, not a rough approximation, heh.

Let him be

Sounds like he did. That whole not saying anything to him part.

You would like to prohibit free speech or what?

One can't dislike something without wanting to prohibit it?

i was agreeing with you ;)

Okay. I was just looking for a more detailed explanation. Cool :cool:

Sounds like a "Pull my finger!" shirt..

Maybe.

One is what he said, the other is not.

Fair enough. :p

I personally think all religions should be taught in school. They are an important aspect of human culture worldwide, and shouldn't be ignored. We need open-mindedness about religion in our children.

And I mean TEACH, not PREACH.

I personally think all religions should be taught in school. They are an important aspect of human culture worldwide, and shouldn't be ignored. We need open-mindedness about religion in our children.

And I mean TEACH, not PREACH.

That what I think too, religion from a historical perspective, not from a 'if you don't convert you'll burn in hell' point of view. Teaching the rise of Christianity in Rome and its affects, or the Rise of Islam is fine. Just don't try to convert me.

I personally think all religions should be taught in school. They are an important aspect of human culture worldwide, and shouldn't be ignored. We need open-mindedness about religion in our children.

And I mean TEACH, not PREACH.

But then if you dont teach absolutely every religion someone is going to get annoyed.

But then if you dont teach absolutely every religion someone is going to get annoyed.

Not every religion is really historicly relevent. These small cult-like religions running around have no place being taught in school. The major ones are:

Buddism
Taoism
Islam
Christianity
Judasim (spelled it wrong, I know...)
.
.

(there are others I am sure, but I can't think of them right now; and no Atheism does not count as a religion. :) )

...and it really annoyed me. It was a kids shirt I saw in school. It said, and I quote:

Dear God,
Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?
Signed,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Signed,
God

What the hell, there is no law that says you can't read your Bible or pray in school. You just can't teach religion in school, and for two very good reason: 1: Not everyone is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ect 2: You are there to learn a standard education, not philosophy or theology.

I didn't say anything to the kid, it was just irritating how someone could take such a narrow view on the subject; to claim that there is so much violence in schools because you can't teach Christian religion in school. What is your take on this?

Well, people in the past have been expelled for praying in school and other things like that.

A popular minor corruption. What he said is more closely translated as "'I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write"

Guess so, he wrote it in french, you found it in english and I found it in spanish, actually, that is my own spanish-english translation.

One is what he said, the other is not.

They mean roughly the same thing, but when quoting someone, it is generally best to actually quote their words, not a rough approximation, heh.

No, I should had quoted him in french, for a truly good quote, but noone would had understood. even your translation, in english, lose some of the original flavor.

The original idea remains, although.

Sounds like he did. That whole not saying anything to him part.

One can't dislike something without wanting to prohibit it?

He said he found the shirt "irritating", and he said it made him angry. You can dislike, disagree or dissapprove, but to get mad over something is a beginning of something worse. Imagine that if he has the power to prohibit it, probably he would.

Well, people in the past have been expelled for praying in school and other things like that.

Maybe, but now a days that usually doesn't happen (if your Christian). God forbid you try to pray in the former Soviet Union, hope the Gulag sounds nice for all you religious types.

Is it legal to pray in the lunchroom, read a holy text in the hallway, or sing hymns to whatever god you wish to have on school grounds?

Cause when I was in highschool I couldn't bring my Bible to school, and there was a kid on the news who was expelled for praying on campus.

There are some schools in the USA where it's not allowed at all. Then again, there are some schools who have before or after school religious clubs of various natures.

I have opinions, but I'm really not in the mood to get into it cause I'll get pissy and I'm tired and at work so I'll not bother. Just saying that mr t-shirt boy's parents aren't totally out of line with their purchases.

You think so, not even a little irritated, or do you find in funny that someone could be so narrow minded?

Actually, the only one who's being narrow minded is you. He was expressing his opinion on the subject, and you got irritated and insulting.

Try some tolerance... you know, the whole goose/gander thing.

He said he found the shirt "irritating", and he said it made him angry. You can dislike, disagree or dissapprove, but to get mad over something is a beginning of something worse. Imagine that if he has the power to prohibit it, probably he would.

If I had the power, I would NOT prohibit it; everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that the shirt is irritating, and for a minute it made me angry, because it is so blatently narrow minded. That would annoy almost anybody.

I feel sorry for the kid actually, how old was he btw? I'm glad I don't have the same parents he has. Instead of teaching him how to think for himself they've probably fed him that fundamentalist bullshit since he was born and unfortunately he will probably turn into a dumbass when he gets old. Stupidity never dies...

I feel sorry for the kid actually, how old was he btw? I'm glad I don't have the same parents he has. Instead of teaching him how to think for himself they've probably fed him that fundamentalist bullshit since he was born and unfortunately he will probably turn into a dumbass when he gets old. Stupidity never dies...

Maybe it was his own opinion rather than one he was indoctrinated with

It's irritating because it's ignorant. Beyond that there's nothing wrong with it.

...and it really annoyed me. It was a kids shirt I saw in school. It said, and I quote:

Dear God,
Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?
Signed,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Signed,
God
Shit like that makes me want to push people down stairs.

Actually, the only one who's being narrow minded is you. He was expressing his opinion on the subject, and you got irritated and insulting.

Try some tolerance... you know, the whole goose/gander thing.

I didn't say anything to him at all. I see him everyday, I even talk to him on occasion; you could probably go as far as to call us friends. I just find his shirt annoying, I didn't say anything insulting at all to him.

For example: Being annoyed with the muslims because some of them blew up a few building doesn't mean you are intolerant to all muslims, just means your a bit irritated.

If I had the power, I would NOT prohibit it; everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that the shirt is irritating, and for a minute it made me angry, because it is so blatently narrow minded. That would annoy almost anybody.

Ehrm, no. It is not irritating. I don't agree with it, but I wouldn't go mad for that.

Calling it blatantly narrow minded is already placing peyorative connotations to him. Perhaps are you so narrow minded that you dismiss as narrow minded anyone who shares a different vision than yours?

I feel sorry for the kid actually, how old was he btw? I'm glad I don't have the same parents he has. Instead of teaching him how to think for himself they've probably fed him that fundamentalist bullshit since he was born and unfortunately he will probably turn into a dumbass when he gets old. Stupidity never dies...

He is a few years younger than me. For those of you who know me, the former Undbagarten, I just turned 20 about a month ago.

Ehrm, no. It is not irritating. I don't agree with it, but I wouldn't go mad for that.

Calling it blatantly narrow minded is already placing peyorative connotations to him. Perhaps are you so narrow minded that you dismiss as narrow minded anyone who shares a different vision than yours?

Honestly i think that statement, especially in the US, is narrow minded, for if that position were to be factually valid, several things would have to be true that simply are not.

I find it funny because it's so obviously wrong.

I suspect his parents made him wear it.

I find it funny because it's so obviously wrong.

I suspect his parents made him wear it.
Not unless he was 12.

I didn't say anything to him at all. I see him everyday, I even talk to him on occasion; you could probably go as far as to call us friends. I just find his shirt annoying, I didn't say anything insulting at all to him.

For example: Being annoyed with the muslims because some of them blew up a few building doesn't mean you are intolerant to all muslims, just means your a bit irritated.

You should, then, had told to him that you don't agree with what the T-shirt said. Perhaps you should do it in the future, if you see him with it again. If I could go as far as to call you friends.

Ehrm, no. It is not irritating. I don't agree with it, but I wouldn't go mad for that.

Calling it blatantly narrow minded is already placing peyorative connotations to him. Perhaps are you so narrow minded that you dismiss as narrow minded anyone who shares a different vision than yours?

It was my own personal opinion, I am entitled to it, just as he is. That is exactly why I didn't say anything. I saw it when I passed him, but I didn't mention anything about the shirt when I talked to him later that day.

I find it funny because it's so obviously wrong.

I suspect his parents made him wear it.

What do you base your suspicion on?

Not unless he was 12.

More like 16 or 17, (I don't know when he was born...)

It's his american right to be narrow minded, as is your and mine's to be open minded. But, I do sense some irony in finding it irritating (as I do). Retaliate with a shirt saying something along the lines "god my favorite fictional character" then see how he reacts.

It was my own personal opinion, I am entitled to it, just as he is. That is exactly why I didn't say anything. I saw it when I passed him, but I didn't mention anything about the shirt when I talked to him later that day.

You are entitled to it but you did ask for everyones opinion on the situation

It's his american right to be narrow minded, as is your and mine's to be open minded. But, I do sense some irony in finding it irritating (as I do). Retaliate with a shirt saying something along the lines "god my favorite fictional character" then see how he reacts.

You could make it more sarcastic by saying this: 'God is my favorite fictional charactor...' put emphasis on both words instead of just 'Fictional' :)

You are entitled to it but you did ask for everyones opinion on the situation

True.

You could make it more sarcastic by saying this: 'God is my favorite fictional charactor...' put emphasis on both words instead of just 'Fictional' :)

But it would be lowering yourself to his level

I was irked when I read this, not so much at the message of introducing religion into public schools. It irks me that people can be so disrespectful of those that have died as a result in violence in schools as to use their deaths for such a petty agenda.

Not long ago I saw the same thing on a Christian message board. Someone brought up an email received about violence in schools and that religion would be the great cure for it.
I pointed out the insensitivity of such a thing so shortly after the VTech massacre. The basic response was that Christians should use any- and everything to proselytize (or 'witness' as they would say - what a nice euphemism).

tl;dr: show some damned respect for those who died due to tragic circumstances.

But it would be lowering yourself to his level

I know, thats why I didn't mention the shirt or say that, because I understand that he has his own opinion.

You are entitled to it but you did ask for everyones opinion on the situation

Exactly, I am just giving my own.

I'd find it irritating because he clearly doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, but more importantly, he's exploiting the death and suffering caused by the Virginia Tech shootings to push an agenda. He has the right to wear the shirt, and I have the right to think he's a prick.

Exactly, I am just giving my own.

That is okay, I understand that.

But it would be lowering yourself to his level

Isn't that the point?

I was irked when I read this, not so much at the message of introducing religion into public schools. It irks me that people can be so disrespectful of those that have died as a result in violence in schools as to use their deaths for such a petty agenda.

Not long ago I saw the same thing on a Christian message board. Someone brought up an email received about violence in schools and that religion would be the great cure for it.
I pointed out the insensitivity of such a thing so shortly after the VTech massacre. The basic response was that Christians should use any- and everything to proselytize (or 'witness' as they would say - what a nice euphemism).

tl;dr: show some damned respect for those who died due to tragic circumstances.

People want to help stop these kinds of tragedies and the way they see to help is through religion. They are just trying to be nice in my eyes. I might not agree with their methods but I respect their wanting to help

People want to help stop these kinds of tragedies and the way they see to help is through religion. They are just trying to be nice in my eyes. I might not agree with their methods but I respect their wanting to help

Right. Forcing schools to preach religion is going to solve all of societies woes.
That isn't addressed to you personally but I must disagree. They aren't interested in stopping these tragedies, only in seeing their own agendas fulfilled.

Right. Forcing schools to preach religion is going to solve all of societies woes.
That isn't addressed to you personally but I must disagree. They aren't interested in stopping these tragedies, only in seeing their own agendas fulfilled.

You're generalising (as am I). In some cases I might be right and in others you might be right.

You're generalising (as am I). In some cases I might be right and in others you might be right.

You're right. What makes it all the more shaming is that I often criticise others for doing the same. I would still say that it would be those of the fundamental persuasion who most often pump out this tripe.

I know the majority of Christians are honest, decent people. It just seems a very simplistic - even downright ignorant - view to take that religion could honestly stop school shootings.
Also, thanks for pointing that out in such a civil manner. It's a refreshing change.

What do you base your suspicion on?Most kids don't want to be that much of a prat.

Though, since he was 16 or 17, that suggests he is that much of a prat.

Most kids don't want to be that much of a prat.

Though, since he was 16 or 17, that suggests he is that much of a prat.

Lots of kids like to make a statement with their clothing. Just because he chose a slightly different statement doesnt necessarily mean it would have to be of his parents choosing

He said he found the shirt "irritating", and he said it made him angry. You can dislike, disagree or dissapprove, but to get mad over something is a beginning of something worse. Imagine that if he has the power to prohibit it, probably he would.

Interesting how you determined that. Some combination of over-the-internet psychoanalysis and a computer that can predict theoretical futures, surely?

Well, people in the past have been expelled for praying in school and other things like that.

Really? I don't think so. Why don't you provide a link?

No one can legally be expelled from a public school simply for praying. Either you are flat wrong or there is more to the story.

Is it legal to pray in the lunchroom, read a holy text in the hallway, or sing hymns to whatever god you wish to have on school grounds?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Cause when I was in highschool I couldn't bring my Bible to school,

Legally, you had a right to bring a Bible to school and no one could stop you if it was a public school.

My guess is there is more to the story.

and there was a kid on the news who was expelled for praying on campus.

Again, I believe this tale is apocryphal. I'd love to see you document it.

There are some schools in the USA where it's not allowed at all. Then again, there are some schools who have before or after school religious clubs of various natures.

There is a federal law that requires schools to allow religious clubs if they allow any types of clubs at all.

I have opinions, but I'm really not in the mood to get into it cause I'll get pissy and I'm tired and at work so I'll not bother. Just saying that mr t-shirt boy's parents aren't totally out of line with their purchases.

Yes, the shirt is out of line. It is based on lies. It is also based on an attitude hostile to the founding principles of our nation -- namely, separation of church and state.

“I don’t agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” .- Voltaire


Let him be, I don’t agree with him neither, but he should be allowed to express his point of view, as you are doing here. Why are you “enraged”? You would like to prohibit free speech or what?
Challenging someone’s beliefs or viewpoint isn’t restricting their free speech. We can become enraged and challenge people to argue for their position without being in any danger of prohibiting free speech.

Voltaire may have defended to the death someone’s right to say something, but I don’t see the author of Candide sitting back and holding his tongue when someone with idiotic views was walking along.

And neither should we.

What would be dangerous, and what nearly happened in Britain with the Religious Discrimination Act, was that certain speech was not only protected from being prohibited, it was protected from criticism. This should never happen. No belief, no matter how sacredly held by any group of people, should be above criticism.

That’s free speech; you can say what you want, but don’t come a-crying when someone starts to deconstruct your argument.

bible reading, prayer, religious observation, all completely legal, and totally unbannable in public school.

The only times where you hear about kids "being expelled for praying" is when their "prayer" usually involves camping out in classrooms, cafeterias, or yelling bible quotes over the voices of teachers because the school "oppressed them" by not allowing a priest to talk about jesus during graduation, or some other such shit.

Nobody has legally been expelled for prayer in school. It's never prayer that gets them, it's being directly disruptive in the guise of "prayer", getting punished for that disruptive behavior, then screaming that they were expelled from prayer.

Damned right prayer gets you expelled, when it's done in a class room, at the top of your voice, after ignoring repeated attempts to stop.

That will get you kicked out...same as playing the trumbone, or reading the latest edition of the onion.

In other words, it has nothing to do with what they were doing, but how they were doing it.

But then again, intellectual honesty has never been a hallmark of the religious right.

Dear God,
Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?
Signed,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
Because I'm a fucking malicious, manipulative, omnipotent bastard who takes pride in watching humanity wallow in suffering and violence.
Signed,
The All-Loving God

First reading the quote I thought it was insinuating god wasn't allowed in schools, that he was tagged or something, like a paedophile.

I am so going to hell...

"I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" .- Voltaire


Let him be, I don't agree with him neither, but he should be allowed to express his point of view, as you are doing here. Why are you "enraged"? You would like to prohibit free speech or what?

Agreeing with free speech doesn't mean you have to be happy about people expressing their stupidity. Just means you have to let them do it.

It's better than the shirt I saw today. "SORRY! Mind closed until further notice!" What the hell? Why would someone wear advertise that they were closed-minded?!

It's a stupid t-shirt, but meh, what-the-hell. If he refering to how the very IDEA of a divine creator is being discouraged in schools, he has a point. But I do not think any school should focus on a paticular religion. It should focus on God, but NOT religion. I'll be ya 10-1 God is abhored by relgion.

It's better than the shirt I saw today. "SORRY! Mind closed until further notice!" What the hell? Why would someone wear advertise that they were closed-minded?!

The mind should be open - let ideas in, process them and then reject the bad ones. :)

It's a stupid t-shirt, but meh, what-the-hell. If he refering to how the very IDEA of a divine creator is being discouraged in schools, he has a point. But I do not think any school should focus on a paticular religion. It should focus on God, but NOT religion. I'll be ya 10-1 God is abhored by relgion.

So school shootings happen when school's don't force-feed students creationsim and abstinence? :rolleyes:

Please. Schools should NOT focus on God OR religion. We are there to learn about stuff for our adult lives (though we probably won't need half of it), not AFTERlives. If you want students to learn about God at school, send them to a religious school.

...and it really annoyed me. It was a kids shirt I saw in school. It said, and I quote:

Dear God,
Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?
Signed,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Signed,
God

What the hell, there is no law that says you can't read your Bible or pray in school. You just can't teach religion in school, and for two very good reason: 1: Not everyone is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ect 2: You are there to learn a standard education, not philosophy or theology.

I didn't say anything to the kid, it was just irritating how someone could take such a narrow view on the subject; to claim that there is so much violence in schools because you can't teach Christian religion in school. What is your take on this?

What nation do you live in? Here in the UK, Religious Education is compulsory; most school assemblies are predominantly Christian themed and, all in all, religion is a fairly major, if somewhat boring, part of our school lives.

What nation do you live in? Here in the UK, Religious Education is compulsory; most school assemblies are predominantly Christian themed and, all in all, religion is a fairly major, if somewhat boring, part of our school lives.

You can opt out of religious education if your parents approve

What nation do you live in? Here in the UK, Religious Education is compulsory; most school assemblies are predominantly Christian themed and, all in all, religion is a fairly major, if somewhat boring, part of our school lives.
That's because you have a state religion, and the US explicitly does not.

That's because you have a state religion, and the US explicitly does not.

Despite the fact that the non-state religion has much more influence in many US states than the state religion does here in Britain?

Pretty funny and quite true...

"I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" .- Voltaire


Let him be, I don't agree with him neither, but he should be allowed to express his point of view, as you are doing here. Why are you "enraged"? You would like to prohibit free speech or what?
Nah, but I sure want this person to grow up and learn about correlations!

Dear God
If you're allowed in the rest of society, why don't you stop violence there
Signed
A confused student

Dear Student
stfu and stick to the script
Signed
God

Meh. I don't see what the big deal is. Members of the Christian Right are abhorable assholes. You didn't already know that? Yes, these people stand for truly despicable things. This should not come as a suprise. You should be used to their particular brand of asshattery by now. Ignore them. They just want attention.

Hahaha! Damn that's funny.

Seriously, that's just funny.

But I do not think any school should focus on a paticular religion. It should focus on God, but NOT religion. I'll be ya 10-1 God is abhored by relgion.

What about people who don't want "God"?

Get one of those buttons that says, "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church." That'll show him.

I can just imagine the bouncer at the school's front door.

Sorry Mr God, didn't you see the sign.

"No shoes, no shirt, no entry."

So school shootings happen when school's don't force-feed students creationsim and abstinence? :rolleyes:

Please. Schools should NOT focus on God OR religion. We are there to learn about stuff for our adult lives (though we probably won't need half of it), not AFTERlives. If you want students to learn about God at school, send them to a religious school.

This is why rational debate is almost a thing of the past.

In order to make your point, you completely distort the point of what you quoted.

No one suggested force-feeding religion and you know it.

I know correlation does not equal causation, but tell me, how many school shootings occured when organized prayer was allowed in schools, by football teams, at commencement addreses?

...and it really annoyed me. It was a kids shirt I saw in school. It said, and I quote:

Dear God,
Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?
Signed,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Signed,
God

What the hell, there is no law that says you can't read your Bible or pray in school. You just can't teach religion in school, and for two very good reason: 1: Not everyone is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ect 2: You are there to learn a standard education, not philosophy or theology.

I didn't say anything to the kid, it was just irritating how someone could take such a narrow view on the subject; to claim that there is so much violence in schools because you can't teach Christian religion in school. What is your take on this?

Heh it's only a T shirt, I like that one that says Jesus is a ****, insulting probably but still only a Tshirt.

Interesting how you determined that. Some combination of over-the-internet psychoanalysis and a computer that can predict theoretical futures, surely?

Not really, it is an opinion, in other words, some of the same thing you write all over you posts each time you place something here in Nationstates. He is allowed to disagree, (as he did), as you are too.

Challenging someone’s beliefs or viewpoint isn’t restricting their free speech. We can become enraged and challenge people to argue for their position without being in any danger of prohibiting free speech.

Voltaire may have defended to the death someone’s right to say something, but I don’t see the author of Candide sitting back and holding his tongue when someone with idiotic views was walking along.

And neither should we.

What would be dangerous, and what nearly happened in Britain with the Religious Discrimination Act, was that certain speech was not only protected from being prohibited, it was protected from criticism. This should never happen. No belief, no matter how sacredly held by any group of people, should be above criticism.

That’s free speech; you can say what you want, but don’t come a-crying when someone starts to deconstruct your argument.

Going angry and labeling things as "stupid" is not exactly challenging someone else's beliefs, that is attacking them. There is a difference regarding that.

You can say, "well, I do not believe in God, and really, even if I would, I don't want religion mixed with education, they should be completely separate for reason a, b, c, d". That is challenging, going angry and labeling another person's posture as stupid, or idiotic is attacking.

Voltaire himself would find, given his posture regarding religion, the entire situation laughable, but I don't think he would had resorted to something so simple as idiotic, perhaps he would had elaborated something better, with a lot more of satire and argument.

You can challenge, yes, as a matter of fact you should, you should critic, discuss, and yes, nothing should be above of criticism. Going mad and insulting is entirely another thing. Deconstruct the argument, do not dismiss it as you are exactly doing right now. Please understand me, it is a matter of form, and not of content.

Agreeing with free speech doesn't mean you have to be happy about people expressing their stupidity. Just means you have to let them do it.

You don't have to be happy, but becoming enraged because someone else express, in a civilized way, his own opinion, and calling it a "stupidity", is not exactly what I would call, a "rational" debate. You wouldn't like to be treated like that, don't you think. "You are stupid just because you think religion should be separate from education", that would be, apart from pretty dumb, insulting.

...and it really annoyed me. It was a kids shirt I saw in school. It said, and I quote:

Dear God,
Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?
Signed,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Signed,
God

What the hell, there is no law that says you can't read your Bible or pray in school. You just can't teach religion in school, and for two very good reason: 1: Not everyone is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ect 2: You are there to learn a standard education, not philosophy or theology.

I didn't say anything to the kid, it was just irritating how someone could take such a narrow view on the subject; to claim that there is so much violence in schools because you can't teach Christian religion in school. What is your take on this?

Ironically, the sentiment of the shirts is confrontational.

Some would argue this means it is not very 'christian'.

Myself, I can't help but laugh at the idea that someone would wear that message, in such a confrontational way. "Why is there so much violence in our schools"? "Because some people deliberately stir up antagonism by wearing confrontational and provocative shirts..., maybe"?

Heh it's only a T shirt, I like that one that says Jesus is a ****, insulting probably but still only a Tshirt.

'****' is a slang term for a vagina. As such, it is something that is attractive, serves a purpose, and is just generally nice to be around. Add to which, it is the source of all life.

Jesus would be proud of the comparison.

You can say, "well, I do not believe in God, and really, even if I would, I don't want religion mixed with education, they should be completely separate for reason a, b, c, d". That is challenging, going angry and labeling another person's posture as stupid, or idiotic is attacking.


Annnnd whats wrong with that. I will continue to call racsim stupid and idotict, I will continue to be angry and confrontaation with stupid racist people. When stupid and idiotic people will not listen to your arguments, then get angry, it's not agaisnt the law, only speach that intices hatred and violence agains a group is.

So I can be angry, indeed I can act and speak angry against racists, I can't call for them to be shot though!

Annnnd whats wrong with that. I will continue to call racsim stupid and idotict, I will continue to be angry and confrontaation with stupid racist people. When stupid and idiotic people will not listen to your arguments, then get angry, it's not agaisnt the law, only speach that intices hatred and violence agains a group is.

So I can be angry, indeed I can act and speak angry against racists, I can't call for them to be shot though!

First, Grammar Time!

Second, who is not listening to your arguments? Listening is equal to "agreeing with"?

And please continue to call religious people stupid and idiotic, but call racists stupid and idiotic at the same time. With just a little dose of logic, and taking your lines a little further, you will call yourself stupid and idiotic.

Calling someone stupid and idiotic is not proposing hatred? Or for sure violence exist only in the physical form?

'****' is a slang term for a vagina. As such, it is something that is attractive, serves a purpose, and is just generally nice to be around. Add to which, it is the source of all life.

Jesus would be proud of the comparison.

Umm I wonder though. I mean yes all that you say is true, but also you get piss and blood out of it!

Ha ha! Hilarious shirt, I love it.

It just goes to show how stupid some people can be.



EDIT:

Umm I wonder though. I mean yes all that you say is true, but also you get piss and blood out of it!

Jesus bled for our sins, remember?

First, Grammar Time!

Second, who is not listening to your arguments? Listening is equal to "agreeing with"?

And please continue to call religious people stupid and idiotic, but call racists stupid and idiotic at the same time. With just a little dose of logic, and taking your lines a little further, you will call yourself stupid and idiotic.

Calling someone stupid and idiotic is not proposing hatred? Or for sure violence exist only in the physical form?

Heh first, I don't give a monkeys about Grammer, you got my meaning.
Second, I would never call religious people stupid and idiotic being one myself.

calling somebody stupid or idiotic is not an act of hatred, it can be and act of truth however, and truely racist people are both stupid and idiotic!

*snip*

Fancy. We know now that the word 'stupid' is an insult. What was your point again? I was almost certain you jumped in here going on about how he probably wants to ban free speech.

Ha ha! Hilarious shirt, I love it.

It just goes to show how stupid some people can be.



EDIT:



Jesus bled for our sins, remember?

Alegedly!

You do realize that that's redundant, don't you? ;)

One is what he said, the other is not.

They mean roughly the same thing, but when quoting someone, it is generally best to actually quote their words, not a rough approximation, heh.

...overlooking the facts (i) he would have written it in French, not English, and (ii) there is no evidence that he actually wrote or said such a thing at all, no?

Heh first, I don't give a monkeys about Grammer, you got my meaning.
Second, I would never call religious people stupid and idiotic being one myself.

calling somebody stupid or idiotic is not an act of hatred, it can be and act of truth however, and truely racist people are both stupid and idiotic!

If you want to be understood easily, I advise you to change that view.

Second, well, your point being?

Truth or not, it is insulting, because most people do not like to be called that way. Please find a definition of stupid and play according to those rules, unless you also give bollocks about meanings as well as grammar.

Fancy. We know now that the word 'stupid' is an insult. What was your point again? I was almost certain you jumped in here going on about how he probably wants to ban free speech.

Your point is for sure vague, don't you think? did you come to the thread just to start an argument with a random poster and chose me? Because that is exactly what looks like you are doing.

I jumped here because I thought that, even although I strongly disagree with what the t-shirt said, I didn't find why people get "enraged" and "irritated" by it, and why was it stupid to express his opinion that way.

Your point is for sure vague, don't you think?

I think you're making some none-too-polite assumptions about the OP, and likely others. Which would be bad for your place on the pedastal, preaching down to us about 'acceptance' and such.

I jumped here because I thought that, even although I strongly disagree with what the t-shirt said, I didn't find why people get "enraged" and "irritated" by it, and why was it stupid to express his opinion that way.

Two people had posted before you. The worst thing said, no, implied about the kid was 'narrow-minded'. And this just bring us back to where I come in. How'd you get from 'enraged' to 'probably prohibit free speech'? I can get mad about things too, and you hardly strike me as the cool reasonable one. There's undoubtedly things that make you mad that don't for me, but that wouldn't make me think "Hmm, she'd probably ban it if she had the power".

I think you're making some none-too-polite assumptions about the OP, and likely others. Which would be bad for your place on the pedastal, preaching down to us about 'acceptance' and such.

I think I discussed with the OP my points, and reached an agreement, after he explained several bits, and I conceded another. Why that is distubing you is what escapes my understanding. I am not "preaching" you, "preaching" is a pretty bad tactic. I'm not even trying to convince you of anything, but to express my point of view.

Two people had posted before you. The worst thing said, no, implied about the kid was 'narrow-minded'. And this just bring us back to where I come in. How'd you get from 'enraged' to 'probably prohibit free speech'? I can get mad about things too, and you hardly strike me as the cool reasonable one. There's undoubtedly things that make you mad that don't for me, but that wouldn't make me think "Hmm, she'd probably ban it if she had the power".

You, first, forgot about timewarps. And then again, I already spoke about it with the person directly involved in my statement, and reached a common point. But then again, your point and reason behind your words are?

I'm not even trying to convince you of anything, but to express my point of view.

That we're the real narrow-minded ones, eh?
You, first, forgot about timewarps. And then again, I already spoke about it with the person directly involved in my statement, and reached a common point. But then again, your point and reason behind your words are?

Well, let's see.

"I think you're making some none-too-polite assumptions about the OP, and likely others"

If you want to be understood easily, I advise you to change that view.

Meh I really can't be botherd, you can understand what i write, and what i mean, why should a comma out of place or a mispselt word matter much.


Second, well, your point being?

Exactly what I said it was. I don't see any problem with getting angry, there are no laws against getting angry, so by all means get angry with people who you percive as being stupid and idiotic.


Truth or not, it is insulting, because most people do not like to be called that way. Please find a definition of stupid and play according to those rules, unless you also give bollocks about meanings as well as grammar.

Meh rules, they are only what we say they are. Common convention, and subject to change at the will of the masses. Stupidity deserves to be called as such and insult. Well you do realise insult is taken not given don't you?

I mean sure there may be intent to insult, but if for example you called me a filthy name, if your intent was to insult me. If I choose to brush your words aside and take no notice of them, then I am not insulted.

To take insult at the word stupid then, seems to me, to be stupidity in the extreame.

That we're the real narrow-minded ones, eh?

No, that you shouldn't be angry at a kid with a t-shirt that express an opinion diferent than yours. And that the ones calling him stupid, or an idiot for sharing a different posture, shouldn't say that. That is my point. Then again, your point being?

"I think you're making some none-too-polite assumptions about the OP, and likely others"

"I think I already reached an agreement with the OP". Yet, do you feel disturbed in some way by what I have said in this thread?, regarding you specifically?

And in the beginning, I said what I said because I thought they were making some not at all polite assumptions about the kid with the t-shirt, who isn't even here to speak for himself.

Jesus bled for our sins, remember?Were you there? Have you seen it?

And as for the t-shirt: it's just silly, and its wearer is a retard.
BTW, what the t-shirt says is that "god" 's authority ends at schools' borders, or that he does things out of spite and malice.

Meh I really can't be botherd, you can understand what i write, and what i mean, why should a comma out of place or a mispselt word matter much.

Actually, it takes me a lot of effort, I am not a native english speaker, and I have to guess what do you mean, instead of just reading what you write. But don't bother, in the long run, I will stop reading something that takes me a lot of effort to understand. I am pretty sure you don't give a pepsi can about that.

Exactly what I said it was. I don't see any problem with getting angry, there are no laws against getting angry, so by all means get angry with people who you percive as being stupid and idiotic.

In your opinion, fine. Point taken.

Meh rules, they are only what we say they are. Common convention, and subject to change at the will of the masses. Stupidity deserves to be called as such and insult. Well you do realise insult is taken not given don't you?

I mean sure there may be intent to insult, but if for example you called me a filthy name, if your intent was to insult me. If I choose to brush your words aside and take no notice of them, then I am not insulted.

To take insult at the word stupid then, seems to me, to be stupidity in the extreame.

I would take insult if you call me stupid. For example, you seem to be retarded or intellectually challenged, by the way you write, or at least, mostly uneducated.

What I just said, was rude, thus insulting, even if you don't care. And I would be assuming a lot saying that.

The problem with stupidity, is that you can always be wrong about how stupìd that person is. Mostly when you just label as "stupid", in other words, you are challenging another person intellectual capabilities, you are assuming and also insulting the person. Stupid is an insult as strong as any "filthy" name.

*snip*

Example.
"Perhaps are you so narrow minded that..."

And, with a little of that future predicting...

I'll have you know that particular comment was directed toward the OP, and I have, as I'm sure you've not yet noticed me say repeatedly, reached an agreement with him

However, that statment could be applied to anyone that considered the kid narrow-minded. Have you 'reached an agreement' with all of them?

I would not have said what you 'predicted'.

Suuuure.

And in the beginning, I said what I said because I thought they were making some not at all polite assumptions about the kid with the t-shirt, who isn't even here to speak for himself.

Heh. What. IR calling the kid a tool?

The problem with stupidity, is that you can always be wrong about how stupìd that person is. Mostly when you just label as "stupid", in other words, you are challenging another person intellectual capabilities, you are assuming and also insulting the person. Stupid is an insult as strong as any "filthy" name.

In the words of honorable Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does".

Wonder what Voltaire would think of that, eh? :p

The problem with stupidity, is that you can always be wrong about how stupìd that person is. Mostly when you just label as "stupid", in other words, you are challenging another person intellectual capabilities, you are assuming and also insulting the person. Stupid is an insult as strong as any "filthy" name.However, if a person displays opinions that allow conclusions to a certain mindset, you can safely assume that person to be 'stupid'. E.g. if someone is a YEC and makes any statements on the nature and history of this planet and humankind, (s)he is stupid.

In the words of honorable Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does".

Wonder what Voltaire would think of that, eh? :p

What is a stupid act, I wonder? Do you have a more or less objetive answer?

I haven't reached an agreement with the rest of them, because they didn't look affected by what I said, as far as it goes, maybe they didn't read the post, so why bother? If you need to discuss something or disagree with someone, point it out....AND

You are actually trying to build a discussion just the sake of going the opposite way than my points, and I am not in the mood for several pages of baiting, so let's say you can go and try to pick someone else.

However, if a person displays opinions that allow conclusions to a certain mindset, you can safely assume that person to be 'stupid'. E.g. if someone is a YEC and makes any statements on the nature and history of this planet and humankind, (s)he is stupid.

What's a YEC?

What is a stupid act, I wonder? Do you have a more or less objetive answer?

*shrug* We could go to the definition of stupid, or whatev, just felt like bringing up the quote as it came to mind.

I haven't reached an agreement with the rest of them, because they didn't look affected by what I said

Funny, this comes after your post on how insults are still insulting regardless of whether or not the subject is affected...

And oy, what happened to that talk of 'the right to voice opinions'?* You say soumething, I have an opinion on what you say, I voice it, you voice on what I said, it goes back and forth like that.

*Inevitable reply on your part: 'the right not to listen'. Well, go on then. You seem eager to exercise it, shoo.

What's a YEC?Young Earth Creationist. complete waste of oxygen.

Actually, it takes me a lot of effort, I am not a native english speaker, and I have to guess what do you mean, instead of just reading what you write. But don't bother, in the long run, I will stop reading something that takes me a lot of effort to understand. I am pretty sure you don't give a pepsi can about that.

Ahh then your English is very good.




I would take insult if you call me stupid. For example, you seem to be retarded or intellectually challenged, by the way you write, or at least, mostly uneducated.


That of course is your perogative. Meself yeah I am dyslexic yes retartded, bwhahah certianly not, and my education, well I am a product of the good old English comprahensive education system, heh sooo perhaps you are correct to call me uneducated.


What I just said, was rude, thus insulting, even if you don't care. And I would be assuming a lot saying that.

By rude do you meqan it transgresses normal accpted social boundries? If so, agian I don't really give a monkeys. Let me explain something to you.

Most people work under a sort of 'treat people how I wish to be treated' rule of thumb , some of us are not so liberal and tend more towards the more facsit 'some peopple need to be told what to do' rule.

Myself I'm about as liberal as they come, I will stand up for even the facscits right to say and act(within reason) how he feels, but I'll also stand up, get angry and shout at those I disagree with, or I feel are trying to impead my social liberties.

So if you want to call me stupid, you most certianly may do, after all I like to enjoythe same freedom of expresion myself, what sort of hypocrit would I be if I diod not afford you the same curtasie?

But insult me? Naaa you just couldn't do it, coz unless you get right down and dirty, I'll just laugh off your words, and choose not to be insulted.

So you see, insult really is in the hands of the insulted. By feeling insult from other peoples words, you give them people real power over you, over what you feel and think, in a very real way you become enslaved by their words, and that is fuckin' increadable!

Why would you want to do that?


The problem with stupidity, is that you can always be wrong about how stupìd that person is. Mostly when you just label as "stupid", in other words, you are challenging another person intellectual capabilities, you are assuming and also insulting the person. Stupid is an insult as strong as any "filthy" name.

Well you are right on that score, but I only give my opinion. Again wether it is right or wrong, here amongst faceless net heads that I neither know nor really care about, it don't matter. I mean nobody here is a mentor of mine, I have met no one face to face. The term 'net friends' is nowt more than a made up piece of crud, net freinds? It takes years to make a friend, to find that person who you can link with, such things matter amongst your friends, but here it don't really matter if you agree with me, or find me or my views repulsive.