NationStates Jolt Archive

This idea came into my head as I read the Mod thread about Issue Bias.

First of all I shall explain what I mean. I am in Grade 11 and in Canada. I have Social Studies as a mandatory course. This year we focus of the world wars and the cold war.

The point:My teacher is very nice and all, but she refers to the sides in ww2 tas the 'Good Guys' and the 'Bad Guys'. I know she is just trying to make it easier for the other students to grasp the politics behind it, but war is never black and white. It is a matter of perspective, the Germans in WW2 saw themselves as the 'Good Guys' and the Allies as the 'Bad Guys'. I find it mildly annoying when my teacher does this because I have a strong German background, my Oma and Opa (Grandparents) moved after the war to get away from the communists. When I entered Kindergarten I had only learned VERY basic english but could speak a strong German for someone my age.

Its not so much the fact that she calls them the bad guys, it just that he other students in my class will have this as the understanding of the war for the rest of there lives.

Don't challenge the teacher on it, you'll be thought a Nazi.

Don't challenge the teacher on it, you'll be thought a Nazi.

In Canada?
Not so much, methinks.

Tread lightly though.

You're teacher refers to the Allies as the 'Good Guys' & the Axis as the 'Bad Guys' because the Nazi's & Imperial Japan were the bad guys. The Nazis were especially bad, the most evil group on the face of the earth at the time.

Your teacher is an idiot, they should always be referred to as "Axis" and "Allies".

There is an old saying that 'The Winners write the history books' and it's true. *nod*

Since it is a WW2 and Cold War class, will she suddenly switch the Soviets from "Good guys" to "bad guys" in the 50's?
That might be amusing to see, "Uncle Joe? The Yalta Conference? Lend-Lease? You speak craziness, we would never have helped Communism spread across Europe, we hate Communism! Communism is the greatest threat which Western Civilization has ever faced, and always will be."

In Canada?
Not so much, methinks.

Tread lightly though.

Better safe than sieg heil.

You're teacher refers to the Allies as the 'Good Guys' & the Axis as the 'Bad Guys' because the Nazi's & Imperial Japan were the bad guys. The Nazis were especially bad, the most evil group on the face of the earth at the time.

That is EXACTLY what I mean to try and avoid. IF its is true then my point is that at the time the German people saw themselves as the 'Good Guys'.

BTW I have been called a Nazi, by my English teacher and I have also been called a Hitlertorian although this was accidental, my socials teacher stuttered after we were talking about Hitler ordering the Anschluss.

Better safe than sieg heil.

Sigworthy!

Better safe than sieg heil.

Once my neighbor was watching us from her porch so...

I jumped onto the BBQ and gave the Fascist salute yelling Sieg Hiel! THAT was hilarious, expecially since I was in nothing but my underwear...

That is EXACTLY what I mean to try and avoid. IF its is true then my point is that at the time the German people saw themselves as the 'Good Guys'.

BTW I have been called a Nazi, by my English teacher and I have also been called a Hitlertorian although this was accidental, my socials teacher stuttered after we were talking about Hitler ordering the Anschluss.

She doesn't sound very nice to me ...

I challenge my history teacher regularly. She likes to speak about communism in the Stalinist sense, saying that Communism does not involve democracy and practically incites genocide.

It really ticks me off when people speak as if they are still being brainwashed by cold war propaganda.

Whether the German People saw themselves as 'Good Guys' is irrelevant, as the winners (Americans, British, Russian, etc.) saw them as 'Bad Guys' then thats what they'll be labled.

The Nazis will forever be known as 'Bad Guys' for what they did to over six million Jews, and the German people too shall share this guilt...

Should we stop calling all these Terrorist Orginizations 'Bad Guys'? Just cause someone thinks they are right doesn't mean they are...

Awesome, I'm in a sieg. I mean sig.

Whether the German People saw themselves as 'Good Guys' is irrelevant, as the winners (Americans, British, Russian, etc.) saw them as 'Bad Guys' then thats what they'll be labled.

The Nazis will forever be known as 'Bad Guys' for what they did to over six million Jews, and the German people too shall share this guilt...

Should we stop calling all these Terrorist Orginizations 'Bad Guys'? Just cause someone thinks they are right doesn't mean they are...

Thats a 2 way street.

Once my neighbor was watching us from her porch so...

I jumped onto the BBQ and gave the Fascist salute yelling Sieg Hiel! THAT was hilarious, expecially since I was in nothing but my underwear...

Shakal, in your opinion, do you think the Germans in WW2 could, under any circumstances, ever be considered 'the good guys'?

It really isn't a 2 way street

Murder 6 Million+ Jews for racist and bigoted reasons makes you a bad guy.

Liberate oppressed peoples across Europe from fascist rule makes you the good guy.

Its just that simple.

Its not so much the fact that she calls them the bad guys, it just that he other students in my class will have this as the understanding of the war for the rest of there lives.

When I was taking Military History in high school, I had to frequently correct the teacher on a number of different points throughout the year.

He didn't much like me...the feeling was mutual. I proved very early on that I was more knowlegable on the subject than he was.

I recall that I totally blew off the final project, since I had aced every exam and assignment. He wasn't happy...I told him if he wanted good work from me, I expected better from him.

Incompetence in teaching should not be tolerated. Call them on their bullshit.

It doesn't matter how the Nazi Germans "saw themselves" in ww2, everything is not relative and meaningless, there really were good guys and bad guys.

You're still a kid, one day it will make more sense.

Yeah, it's never as simple as "good guys" and "bad guys"...but it comes closer to being that simple in WWII than it does in most wars. There were horrible deeds committed on both sides of the conflict, but most of the horrible deeds committed on the Allied side were committed defensively - in theory, anyway. I don't agree with the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, for example, but the purpose of doing so was neither to take over Japan nor to kill all those ethnically inferior Japanese, but rather very specifically to end the war. Roll your eyes a bit at your teacher, but save your indignation for a war in which the so-called "bad guys" were a little less egregiously and deliberately bad. Hitler and his cronies probably did believe, on some level at least, that exterminating Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and the mentally ill was a "good" thing to do. Most sane people, however, would disagree, and it takes a rather insane degree of moral relativism to insist that no one should label mass genocides as evil.

Oh, as for your pride in your German background, you should really understand that saying that the Fourth Reich was evil is very different than saying that Germans are evil, and that pride should be derived from an honest evaluation of merits and faults, not blind patriotism. One can love one's country without insisting that one's country's history is without stain.

No, you are not 'over reacting'. You are barely reacting at all. The teacher is wrong.. probably doesn't know she is wrong. There are a lot of dumbass teachers. Many shouldn't be teachers at all. But the school system is so desperate they don't have many choices.. not that what she was saying would go against school policy though.. It probably doesn't.

Should we stop calling all these Terrorist Orginizations 'Bad Guys'? Just cause someone thinks they are right doesn't mean they are...


well, looking at it like that you could say that we are wrong and they are right because "someone thinks we are right"

we = people against terrorists...

My bad, let me reword that:

Just because someone else, as in non-Americans, think they are right doesn't mean they are.

Better? ;)

The german leadership were bad guys.

The average germans who had to follow them or be shot weren't.

It's the same today, where willing al qaeda members are bad guys but average, normal muslims are not.

Make sure you tell your teacher what you think about the entire good guys and bad guys thing. Also, make sure you don't give the teacher the impression that you feel that the tables should be turned. Casualties figures for the war are as high as 72 million dead, on both sides. 60 years later, you'll still find people who are very adamant in their beliefs that opposing (and sometimes even allied) armies caused their community the most harm.

Adnuo;12622782']Make sure you tell your teacher what you think about the entire good guys and bad guys thing. Also, make sure you don't give the teacher the impression that you feel that the tables should be turned. Casualties figures for the war are as high as 72 million dead, on both sides. 60 years later, you'll still find people who are very adamant in their beliefs that opposing (and sometimes even allied) armies caused their community the most harm.

You give the teacher too much credit. If he/she's saying this now.. do you actually think she'll change her mind? Oh Wait! Maybe she will.. she's been indoctrined.. brain washed.. she can be reprogrammed. It might just be her opinion.. hard to change an opinion.. even though its usually formed by the same things as doctrine.

Ignore the 'set in stone', think for yourself. Take other peoples opinions into consideration, take all things into consideration. Don't sell yourself short. Which ever side you end up on.. as long as you got there yourself.. well.. its better than being somewhere, where someone else got you.

I don't think you're overreacting, but you might be looking too much into it.

Sure, perspective is everything, but how many kids from any high school end up in a job where their perception of WWII is important?

As well, I took SS11 in British Columbia and it's more the Canadian perspective than anything. If your classmates(the ones who will live with a high school education, nothing wrong with that btw) remember anything from SS11, it'll likely be Canada punching above it's weight, or the holocaust, but as far as the Germans being "bad", most people see it that way anyhow.

I didn't really want to get whether the Germans as a whole were the "bad guys", but it's almost mandatory so here goes. The majority of Germans never voted Nazi, scores of them went along with it for their own safety, or their family's, or because while not a fan of Nazi racial policy, thought they would make Germany a better place.

But, in a dictatorship, there comes a time when one crosses the line from simply following orders to collaborating. Where it is? Beats me. But there's an event out there somewhere where the average German had to have stood up for what was right, even if it meant execution. It's not just in Germany, but in any dictatorship.

If you learn one thing from High School, or Post-Secondary(I've done both, the first one was better), it should be to tolerate others views. I'm not saying you're being intolerant here, in fact, you're taking a good approach. But it'll help you more to understand why it is that your teacher, or anyone thinks the way they do, instead of a counterargument. If you fall into the trap of just assuming everyone else is wrong, then all the knowledge you have becomes useless.

*snip*
I didn't really want to get whether the Germans as a whole were the "bad guys", but it's almost mandatory so here goes. The majority of Germans never voted Nazi, scores of them went along with it for their own safety, or their family's, or because while not a fan of Nazi racial policy, thought they would make Germany a better place.

But, in a dictatorship, there comes a time when one crosses the line from simply following orders to collaborating. Where it is? Beats me. But there's an event out there somewhere where the average German had to have stood up for what was right, even if it meant execution. It's not just in Germany, but in any dictatorship.*snip*

Naill Ferguson describes it quite well in his book The Third Reich.

The premise is to imagine a bridge (read country) being rebuilt while allowing traffic (read society) to continue to use it. The bridge is therefore rebuilt girder by girder, which means the traffic doesn't notice until, one fine day, it's a completely new bridge.

It's hard to pin blame on the German people themselves, yet it doesn't mean that, during WW2, the Germans weren't, quite literally, the baddies.

Moral relativism annoyed me. If what the Nazi's did wasn't evil, than no moral decision ever made has any weight at all, and we may all as well do whatever we damn well please.

Furthermore, you really have to learn that there is a difference between what people say about the Nazis, and what they say about the German people. Unless you or your family were goose-stepping in Hitler's armies, your teacher is not referring to you as the "bad guys."

Perhaps I'm incorrect, but I always thought that history shouldn't be taught with any sort of moral judgment, however appropriate it might be. A good history teacher is supposed to teach historical facts. Historical interpretations are left to the students. Maybe it's too heavy for just a high school history class, but calling the Axis "bad guys" and the Allies "good guys" is a flawed, oversimplified approach. The Allies needn't be perceived as having the high moral ground merely because the other side didn't. Things were done by the Allies that could be interpreted as "bad", such as the bombing of Dresden and Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I'm not saying they were "bad" or not, but the fact that the morality of them is widely disputed is indisputed).

"Its not so much the fact that she calls them the bad guys, it just that he other students in my class will have this as the understanding of the war for the rest of there lives."

Ummm, everyone has their own point of view of course, but please! Did Hitler and his cronies exterminate millions of people? Yes!

There is no way that this is not really, REALLY bad.


bh

ps: Sadly, "we" are now adding our names to the list of "bad guys" over in Iraq with all the damage that we are doing currently

Whether the German People saw themselves as 'Good Guys' is irrelevant, as the winners (Americans, British, Russian, etc.) saw them as 'Bad Guys' then thats what they'll be labled.

The Nazis will forever be known as 'Bad Guys' for what they did to over six million Jews, and the German people too shall share this guilt...

Should we stop calling all these Terrorist Orginizations 'Bad Guys'? Just cause someone thinks they are right doesn't mean they are...
German people =/= Nazis.

His teacher by refering to Germany as the 'bad guys' reinforces this stereotype that all Germans were Nazis.
Much like what you're doing here.

By simplifying events and people down to b/w caricatures, you're failing to understand the reasons why those events happened and why those people acted the way they did. Thus you run the risk of repeating history.

By refering to the Nazis and Japanese as 'bad guys', it makes it easier to think of what they did as something we, being 'the good guys', would never do and so we can dismiss it as an 'evil' action from an 'evil' people.

Also, refering to the Allies as 'good guys' gives the impression that our side never did anything wrong and were always noble in their actions. Or perhaps you think the Dresden firebombing, for example, was a noble action. Or what some Soviets did to the local populace as they rampaged through Germany.

Final note: you should read up on History. Saying the Nazis were the most evil peoples around at the time just shows your ignorance. What they did during WWII pales in comparison to what the Japanese army did during that period.

But, in a dictatorship, there comes a time when one crosses the line from simply following orders to collaborating. Where it is? Beats me. But there's an event out there somewhere where the average German had to have stood up for what was right, even if it meant execution. It's not just in Germany, but in any dictatorship.

If you learn one thing from High School, or Post-Secondary(I've done both, the first one was better), it should be to tolerate others views. I'm not saying you're being intolerant here, in fact, you're taking a good approach. But it'll help you more to understand why it is that your teacher, or anyone thinks the way they do, instead of a counterargument. If you fall into the trap of just assuming everyone else is wrong, then all the knowledge you have becomes useless.
See Schindler's List.

Also, while tolerating other's views is generally a good and nobel thing, some things should not be tolerated. Perhaps considered with an open mind and judged, but after judged to be bad, we shouldn't tolerate them. The view that genocide is okay is intolerable to me. Similarly, I find bigotry intolerable. If someone wants to be a bigot, they need to take it out of my presence.

Perhaps I'm incorrect, but I always thought that history shouldn't be taught with any sort of moral judgment, however appropriate it might be. A good history teacher is supposed to teach historical facts. Historical interpretations are left to the students. Maybe it's too heavy for just a high school history class, but calling the Axis "bad guys" and the Allies "good guys" is a flawed, oversimplified approach. The Allies needn't be perceived as having the high moral ground merely because the other side didn't. Things were done by the Allies that could be interpreted as "bad", such as the bombing of Dresden and Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I'm not saying they were "bad" or not, but the fact that the morality of them is widely disputed is indisputed).

Noble in concept but impossible in reality. There are interpretations made simply by deciding what to teach. And these decisions are necessary because there simply isn't enough time to teach all of history. History is always taught with a slant. In some ways, I think it might be better that the teacher acknowledge the one-sidedness by saying things like "good guys" and 'bad guys" (tho no doubt this teacher is not this clever, and is simplifying it cuz that is how she understands it) than giving the incorrect impression that the information being presented is balanced.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. Altho students should know that EVERYTHING has bias, teachers should strive to elliminate it, as much as they reasonably can.

No, not all Germans were Nazis. Still, a good percentage were.

The point being that the Nazi's & Imperial Japan were the 'Bad Guys'. Period. End of Discussion.

Personally, I don't care what the Allies did, they did all those things during wartime. They did things to end the war the Nazi's & Japanese started.

The Soviets only did to the Nazi's what the Nazi's did to them: rape their country. Kharma. But the Soviets were a nescessary evil...

I doubt anything the Japanese did during WW2 compares to what the Nazis did to the Jews...

You're teacher refers to the Allies as the 'Good Guys' & the Axis as the 'Bad Guys' because the Nazi's & Imperial Japan were the bad guys. The Nazis were especially bad, the most evil group on the face of the earth at the time.

you haven't heard what Japan did have you

Hmmmm...No...Not sure I care either ;)

Both the Nazis & the Japanese were evil, thats why the Allies won

And in the end thats all that matters: The Allies Won

Because the Allies Won, they decided who got labled 'The Good Guys' & 'The Bad Guys'.

It's a toughie,

The Japanese did not design complete infrastructure, from railroads to camps to gas chambers, for the sole purpose of exterminating an entire race.

2007 is the 70th anniversary of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre) however, without going into comfort women, medical experimentation and etc, which Germany can be accused of as well.

Both Germany and Japan saw themselves as a superior race and acted accordingly - but only Germany took pains to specifically wipe out another race.

*Using "Japan/Germany" as it's the simplest to write, not to tar entire nations.

**Actually, comfort women I can't pin on Germany, sure there was rape but in war, there always is - I just have some images in my mind of comfort women photos from Korea (I think from the Rape of Nanking book) that simply....well words don't really describe

It's a toughie,

The Japanese did not design complete infrastructure, from railroads to camps to gas chambers, for the sole purpose of exterminating an entire race.

2007 is the 70th anniversary of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre) however, without going into comfort women, medical experimentation and etc, which Germany can be accused of as well.

Both Germany and Japan saw themselves as a superior race and acted accordingly - but only Germany took pains to specifically wipe out another race.

*Using "Japan/Germany" as it's the simplest to write, not to tar entire nations.
Japanese did use POWs to build a Railway and as bayonet practice

There is an old saying that 'The Winners write the history books' and it's true. *nod*

So the Japanese won then?

If you believe the germans were the real evil, the US was the good guys... ah well...

Just some thought on this:

why a french general said this is not a peace but 30 year of cease fire after the WWI was over? Because he knew the loser side is being forced to do things which simply kills them. Then came the economy crisis, and these countries started with a serious disadvantage. The US,UK forced these countries into war you like it or not, their demands from these country let the radicals get to power (hitler for example). Japan, that island lacked the resources a modern state needed. When America cut the oil supply, everyone knew there will be war. So okay the war gets on, the Soviets and germans attacks Polland. THen germany pwns Europe and turns on the soviets, suddenly the soviets are the best friend of the allies although they still massacred thousands of polish soldier and civilian. Anyone cares? No, no because the big bad evil is Germany. So America silently supports the UK and the USSR with raw and military resources, although not taking part directly in the war. Why? because America did not want to take part in this war. America needed a disaster. And yes with Pearl harbor, America got what he needed. The whole country went to war. But what did America? He let the soviets invade and capture almost the whole Europe, throwing these countries into slavery for 50 years. Then they drop 2 Nuclear bomb on civilian and industry targets, to stop their SOLDIERS from dying. How many american was punished for killing thousands of civilians? None. Meanwhile i agree those who take part in the holocaust have to be punished, i dont understand why the soviets or even the US is an exception from this. So who is the good or bad guy here? Noone. There are winners and losers.

once again, i am not defending the nazis, nor hitler. I am just stating nor America nor the Soviets were any better. America was just as rasicts as the germans, the only difference was they killed the black people economically instead of bullets and gas. In 1942 the US president had to make a law (in the fear of revolt) to let the black people work in the better paying jobs. What are we talking about here? America fought against a racist nation meanwhile America itself was rasict? Interesting. America fought to save Europe meanwhile agreed on the soviets who will control which part of Europe? So America and the Soviets just took what the germans wanted. Great, lets celebrate half of Europe was under communist dictatorship instead of a nazi one for 50 years.

Good or bad? point of view.

Moral relativism annoyed me. If what the Nazi's did wasn't evil, than no moral decision ever made has any weight at all, and we may all as well do whatever we damn well please.

Furthermore, you really have to learn that there is a difference between what people say about the Nazis, and what they say about the German people. Unless you or your family were goose-stepping in Hitler's armies, your teacher is not referring to you as the "bad guys."


My Great Grandfather was in the SS...

He was also shot for not executing prisioners of war.

This idea came into my head as I read the Mod thread about Issue Bias.

First of all I shall explain what I mean. I am in Grade 11 and in Canada. I have Social Studies as a mandatory course. This year we focus of the world wars and the cold war.

The point:My teacher is very nice and all, but she refers to the sides in ww2 tas the 'Good Guys' and the 'Bad Guys'. I know she is just trying to make it easier for the other students to grasp the politics behind it, but war is never black and white. It is a matter of perspective, the Germans in WW2 saw themselves as the 'Good Guys' and the Allies as the 'Bad Guys'. I find it mildly annoying when my teacher does this because I have a strong German background, my Oma and Opa (Grandparents) moved after the war to get away from the communists. When I entered Kindergarten I had only learned VERY basic english but could speak a strong German for someone my age.

Its not so much the fact that she calls them the bad guys, it just that he other students in my class will have this as the understanding of the war for the rest of there lives.

Shes not calling the germants the bad guys, shes calling the Nazis the bad guys.

Shakal your signature is about 14 lines long. Best trim it before the mods just delete it.

The only true evil, in my opinion, where the puritains. They weren't just against everone like the nazis (which I'm not a big fan of), They were against themselves too. (salem witch trials)

Nazis are mean, simple as that.

Also, while tolerating other's views is generally a good and nobel thing, some things should not be tolerated. Perhaps considered with an open mind and judged, but after judged to be bad, we shouldn't tolerate them. The view that genocide is okay is intolerable to me. Similarly, I find bigotry intolerable. If someone wants to be a bigot, they need to take it out of my presence.



Yeah, that's entirely true. It's why in Canada there are laws that define views that are just too radical for society.

As for Schindler's List, it's a good movie, but even more haunting was a video made by the US Army in 1945 where they documented just what condition the prisoners were in and most strikingly, had German civilians tour the camps. Seeing them dressed in their Sunday best and talking happily like they were on their way to the theatre and then seeing them walk out with the wives crying hysterically and their husbands with a thousand yard stare says it all really.

Many, probably most Germans were willing to go along with the holocaust, until they its victims, by which point, it was too late. That's not to say they didn't know what was going on, but rather that it's one thing to be complicit in someone's death when you don't see anything and another when you're right there, looking an emaciated holocaust survivor in the face.

It's worse when they make up excuses like: We we're just following orders. Or, my favorite, it never happened.

Does it matter what language your teacher uses? You know the truth.

Well, I'd never label the Axis as "good guys"... but I wouldn't label any of the other factions. Nevertheless, calling factions that should be avoided at all costs in a history lesson - unless in a personal aside remark.

This makes me think, can any side in a war be called the "good guys"? EVER?

This idea came into my head as I read the Mod thread about Issue Bias.

First of all I shall explain what I mean. I am in Grade 11 and in Canada. I have Social Studies as a mandatory course. This year we focus of the world wars and the cold war.

The point:My teacher is very nice and all, but she refers to the sides in ww2 tas the 'Good Guys' and the 'Bad Guys'. I know she is just trying to make it easier for the other students to grasp the politics behind it, but war is never black and white. It is a matter of perspective, the Germans in WW2 saw themselves as the 'Good Guys' and the Allies as the 'Bad Guys'. I find it mildly annoying when my teacher does this because I have a strong German background, my Oma and Opa (Grandparents) moved after the war to get away from the communists. When I entered Kindergarten I had only learned VERY basic english but could speak a strong German for someone my age.

Its not so much the fact that she calls them the bad guys, it just that he other students in my class will have this as the understanding of the war for the rest of there lives.

Germans were really nice people during the WWII, ask any jewish person or person who lives in Poland, Greece, France, Denmark, Norway, Finland (War of Lapland (almost all of building in Lapland were burned down by Germans)) or former SSR country (soviet socialist republic) or former Jugoslavian country.:rolleyes: