NationStates Jolt Archive

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

Evolve into homo sapiens.

Read Roots, the bit when he's on the ship.. I just cant believe they could really do that to people.

it's a tossup between slavery and the holocausts for me. slavery was more long term so i reckon that takes the poisnoned biscuit.

dictate whats right and wrong

slave ships are right up there.

but i doubt it was the worst thing ever. in 10,000 years of human history there are too many horrors to remember.

dictate whats right and wrong

dude if you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong....thats kinda scary, are you a robot?

Paris Hilton

dude if you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong....thats kinda scary, are you a robot?

tell me what makes something wrong?

dictate whats right and wrong

chips with ketchup. that is an abomination. chippy sauce is the only way to truth.

dictate whats right and wrong

dude if you cannot tell the difference between right and wrong....thats kinda scary, are you a robot?

YOU are right and wrong. think about it eh.

tell me what makes something wrong?

causing unnecessary human suffering, mass murder and genocide, torture, mass kidnapping or forced migration

stuff along those lines

I think I would go with the Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.
"400 years"? "Western nations"? I hate to break it to you, but the trade in human slaves is (A) still going on, and (B) a hell of a lot older than that.

The worst thing, however, has to be the development of Socratic Dualism and the way that it inflicted itself on Christianity. It is bad enough to kill or torture someone, but to convince generation after generation of people to kill and torture themselves in pursuit of some asinine "spiritual purity", that is simply unforgivable.

COMMUNISM

-has caused more deaths and more poverty than anything else in human history.

I don't know if you can simply point to one thing.

Germ warfare
Genocide
Religious wars
Child sex trade
Profiting of the misery of others.
Destruction of indigenous cultures from genocide, religion, or forced conversion.
Barney
Reality TV
...

causing unnecessary human suffering, mass murder and genocide, torture, mass kidnapping or forced migration

no there wrong in your eyes

Convince themselves variously named magicians in the sky want them to kill other humans that believe in a differently named magician in the sky.

Failing that, think themselves superior for no tangible reason.

COMMUNISM

-has caused more deaths and more poverty than anything else in human history.

no thats capitalism

no there wrong in your eyes

WAIT, Wait, wait Pause the thread...sir, are you implying to me that those things are NOT bad

no thats capitalism

no I think it's two sides foolishy fighting over their ideology and killing thousands in the process

COMMUNISM

-has caused more deaths and more poverty than anything else in human history.

Communists were the cause of the colonization of Africa, Asia, the middle east?.....

European colonialism and nationalism.

"400 years"? "Western nations"? I hate to break it to you, but the trade in human slaves is (A) still going on, and (B) a hell of a lot older than that.

The worst thing, however, has to be the development of Socratic Dualism and the way that it inflicted itself on Christianity. It is bad enough to kill or torture someone, but to convince generation after generation of people to kill and torture themselves in pursuit of some asinine "spiritual purity", that is simply unforgivable.

you are right...

but I was talking of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade

I guess I should have been more specific

Communists were the cause of the colonization of Africa, Asia, the middle east?.....

Yes, yes they were. And no, i am not going to give any more information on that.

WAIT, Wait, wait Pause the thread...sir, are you implying to me that those things are NOT bad

there horrifying and also unnatural not "bad", "wrong" or "evil" such words are only fit for bedtime stories

Yes, yes they were. And no, i am not going to give any more information on that.

I fail to see how Karl Marx's 19th Century Communist Manifesto was responsible for 15th century Colonialism and imperialism...

there horrifying and also unnatural not "bad", "wrong" or "evil" such words are only fit for bedtime stories

did you really have to get into this whole thing on a small technicality

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

the worst thing man has done is we have a habit of finding something new to beat the current worst thing they did.

Yes, yes they were. And no, i am not going to give any more information on that.

:eek:

Are you suggesting the communists are a front for the Illuminati? But wait aren't the Illuminati capitalists? Wait *head explodes*

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

the worst thing man has done is we have a habit of finding something new to beat the current worst thing they did.

did you really have to get into this whole thing on a small technicality

yes, right and wrong is responsible for a hell of allot of crimes just look at the 'God hates fags' crowd

yes, right and wrong is responsible for a hell of allot of crimes just look at the 'God hates fags' crowd

okay I concede you win that argument

So, what do you think is the most horrible thing one group of people has done to another group of people?

Is Jolt running really slow for anyone else right now?

It is for me...or at least was like 10 minutes ago, it's a bit better now

Read Roots, the bit when he's on the ship.. I just cant believe they could really do that to people.yeah.. IMO.. -that 400 year bit- is the Worst thing Humanity has ever done.

Communists were the cause of the colonization of Africa, Asia, the middle east?.....

No, communists impoverished China and Russia, starved millions of people to death, and sent several generations of potential leaders and scientists to political prison camps.

Africa actually had an economy before it became independent. I'm not condoning slavery or apartheid, but there is no denying that Europeans set up vital industries and trade that fell apart when Africa kicked them out. Lets not also forget that Africans are more responsible for slavery than Europeans. They captured and sold their own people! When France and Britain outlawed slavery, it pissed off alot of African kings bacause slavery was their biggest industry. Slavery is a horrible thing but communism has effected millions more. Did you ever see that movie Dr. Zivalgo?

No, communists impoverished China and Russia, starved millions of people to death, and sent several generations of potential leaders and scientists to political prison camps.

Africa actually had an economy before it became independent. I'm not condoning slavery or apartheid, but there is no denying that Europeans set up vital industries and trade that fell apart when Africa kicked them out. Lets not also forget that Africans are more responsible for slavery than Europeans. They captured and sold their own people! When France and Britain outlawed slavery, it pissed off alot of African kings bacause slavery was their biggest industry. Slavery is a horrible thing but communism has effected millions more. Did you ever see that movie Dr. Zivalgo?

i think it's Zhivago? right?

No, communists impoverished China and Russia, starved millions of people to death, and sent several generations of potential leaders and scientists to political prison camps.

Africa actually had an economy before it became independent. I'm not condoning slavery or apartheid, but there is no denying that Europeans set up vital industries and trade that fell apart when Africa kicked them out. Lets not also forget that Africans are more responsible for slavery than Europeans. They captured and sold their own people! When France and Britain outlawed slavery, it pissed off alot of African kings bacause slavery was their biggest industry. Slavery is a horrible thing but communism has effected millions more. Did you ever see that movie Dr. Zivalgo?

just because slavery benfitted the rulling tribes/whatever doesn't mean it was a good thing.

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

I believe it would be more proper to be more specific and say Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade...as the Slave trade has been in existence for thousands of years, and in some parts of the world does indeed continue.

The last century had plenty of wonderful examples of humanity sucking.

Obviously the Holocaust and the varied purges, famines and mass murders of the Communist states, a pair of World Wars and countless terrible things in the Third World.

I think we've reached the point where the numbers don't actually matter, and that these events have just transcended awful so much that they're all probably equally awful.

I think I would go with the Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations


And Eastern...and Southern...and Northern..

I believe it would be more proper to be more specific and say Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade...as the Slave trade has been in existence for thousands of years, and in some parts of the world does indeed continue.

In Soviet Russia, slave trades you!

what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

the conversion to agriculture

Genocide. Genocide in general has to be the worst thing humanity has ever done. If you want specifics, well, we have a lot:
Razing of Carthage
Razing of Thebes
Holocaust
Genocide against the Kurds by Hussein
Genocide against the Kosovars by Milosevic's administration
The list goes ON


Now, you may not consider Carthage and Thebes to be genocide, but keep in mind the numbers of world population we're talking about. And the Romans did raze it to the ground, kill every last man, woman, and child, and salt the earth where it once was.

...

Anyway...what is the worst one?

The mass extinction event. And we're not done yet :(
EDIT: I concede the thread to Free Soviets, for seeing the obvious two minutes before me.
Not as sweeping, but correct. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12607855&postcount=42)What humanity has done to itself is it's problem, eh mate?

big macs

Britney Spears

Existing in the first place...If it wasn't for the way we choke the planet of its resources...poisoning it with our gases and killing each other...im sure the earth would thrive without us

slave ships are right up there.

but i doubt it was the worst thing ever. in 10,000 years of human history there are too many horrors to remember.

Correct. The Roman Jewish massacre killed far more Jews then the holocaust did. Also, Stalin alone killed more people then the Roman massacre and holocaust put together. And slavery was certainly terrible too, but it came more from ignorance then evil, as people were stupid enough to considered Negroes animals. As for evil, I'd would say the attrocities in Africa go far beyond mere killing.

Evolve into homo sapiens.

Existing in the first place

so humanity is inherently evil? really?

-enslavement
-mass rape
-cell phone ring tones.

And slavery was certainly terrible too, but it came more from ignorance then evil, as people were stupid enough to considered Negroes animals.

what the fuck?

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

That....I was AT that damned thing. Mohawk College...IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE SHOES! OH GOD THE SHOES! :eek:

i agree with the guy who said something to the effect of dictating what is right and wrong. Or really not the act of it itself, but the development of the concept that right and wrong can be universally dictated. I mean genocide and slavery and war is all bad, but it is all justified by those who do it, at least to themselves. They really justify that sort of thing because they think that what's right and what isn't can be written down and handed to everyone..

so humanity is inherently evil? really?

No, but we didn't do much good. I guess we are moreso inherently neutral, with a penchant for self promotion.

so humanity is inherently evil? really?

not particularly...I just think we are unaware of the consequences of our actions...the human race likes to bury its head in the sand and pretend everything will work out fine in the end :headbang:

the conversion to agriculture

*bows*

A better question would be what is the worst thing humaity will do. No matter how bad what was doen in the past, someone will eventually get around to exceeding the atrocity. In answer to an above post: Yes, humanity is inherently evil.

No, communists impoverished China and Russia, starved millions of people to death, and sent several generations of potential leaders and scientists to political prison camps.

Africa actually had an economy before it became independent. I'm not condoning slavery or apartheid, but there is no denying that Europeans set up vital industries and trade that fell apart when Africa kicked them out. Lets not also forget that Africans are more responsible for slavery than Europeans. They captured and sold their own people! When France and Britain outlawed slavery, it pissed off alot of African kings bacause slavery was their biggest industry. Slavery is a horrible thing but communism has effected millions more. Did you ever see that movie Dr. Zivalgo?

Lest we forget, that although you could blame it on Marx, it was Britain who exported Communism to China to ruin the economy (combined with exporting opium illegally.)

In Soviet Russia, slave trades you!

And that "joke" is old even in soviet russia.

Religion.

Or the fluffernutter. Either one.

no thats capitalism

Yeah, right... Without Communism Stalin would never have come to power... Now give me your best shots against Capitalism.

Existing in the first place...If it wasn't for the way we choke the planet of its resources...poisoning it with our gases and killing each other...im sure the earth would thrive without us

I meant worst thing people have done to other to people...

what the fuck?

Clarify.

Yeah, right... Without Communism Stalin would never have come to power... Now give me your best shots against Capitalism.

the horrors of the industrial revolution, homelessness, the fact that the same year scientists calculated we could feed the world Ethiopia went hungry etc etc

That....I was AT that damned thing. Mohawk College...IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE SHOES! OH GOD THE SHOES! :eek:

Was it any good?....I really wanted to go but...well....I forgot the permission form, It was signed and everything...and I slept in on the day we were going

the horrors of the industrial revolution, homelessness, the fact that the same year scientists calculated we could feed the world Ethiopia went hungry etc etc

Sorry, if this is your best shot you lose to Joe. He killed an aful lot of people. Your qualm agaist capitalism is child labour and things, not genocide. Your worst claim is that capitalism is responsoble for world hunger. Well, if that is true it's through inaction, not action such as Stalin. Oh, and precisely what is Communsim doing to stop world hunger? Zip, though they promote it greatly.

Africa actually had an economy before it became independent.

It also had one before the Europeans came.

Well, if that is true it's through inaction, not action such as Stalin.

Clarify the distinction.

It also had one before the Europeans came.

Ya, like trading slaves and food for women. Don't get me wrong, the Bushmen were better people then the Europeans as far as morals go, but the whole of Africa didn't really have an "Economy".

He killed an aful lot of people. Your qualm agaist capitalism is child labour and things, not genocide. Your worst claim is that capitalism is responsoble for world hunger. Well, if that is true it's through inaction, not action such as Stalin. Oh, and precisely what is Communsim doing to stop world hunger? Zip, though they promote it greatly.

capitalism has killed many more people and still is

and world hunger has nothing to do with inaction, if it where profitable to ship all the food that is just left to go bad in storehouses we wouldn't have hunger

Ya, like trading slaves and food for women.

:rolleyes:

not particularly...I just think we are unaware of the consequences of our actions...the human race likes to bury its head in the sand and pretend everything will work out fine in the end :headbang:

Oh certainly, but if we had not existed we could not appreciate the benifit of not existing and the world would be nothing more than just another planet. Which is to say- Human nature is human nature, and all things eventually change. I think it arrogant to presume humanity is strong enough to wipe out the planet. We might be able to do it temporarily...

Ya, like trading slaves and food for women. Don't get me wrong, the Bushmen were better people then the Europeans as far as morals go, but the whole of Africa didn't really have an "Economy".

yeah there was no such thing as The Sahelian kingdoms, Nubian Kingdoms, kingdom of Aksum, Munhumutapa Empire, Kingdom of Kongo etc etc

how ignorant.

capitalism has killed many more people and still is

and world hunger has nothing to do with inaction, if it where profitable to ship all the food that is just left to go bad in storehouses we wouldn't have hunger

It's not really capitalism that causes the problem though, is it? It's those ridiculous farm subsidies like the CAP which stops the third world from developing its own food production infrastructure.

Still, I have high hopes that this bio-fuel nonsense will go a long way towards solving the food problem.

Clarify the distinction.

If a shooter goes to shoot somebody and a guy stands by and watchs when he could FOR certain stop it, I'm not going to like the guy at all. However, I'd still hate the shooter more. Once again however, any inaction capitalism is guilty of, Communism is just as guilty.

Sorry, if this is your best shot you lose to Joe. He killed an aful lot of people. Your qualm agaist capitalism is child labour and things, not genocide. Your worst claim is that capitalism is responsoble for world hunger. Well, if that is true it's through inaction, not action such as Stalin. Oh, and precisely what is Communsim doing to stop world hunger? Zip, though they promote it greatly.

Capitalism isn't "responsible" for as many deaths as Communism but It's hands aren't exactly clean either....

In Bolivia a corporation privated ALL water in a city, even rain water...residents earned an average of $70 a month of which $20 went to "buying" rain and river water to drink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_protests_of_2000

capitalism has killed many more people and still is

and world hunger has nothing to do with inaction, if it where profitable to ship all the food that is just left to go bad in storehouses we wouldn't have hunger

It is STILL inaction, SELFISH inaction, but STILL INACTION.

Barney


Remember when he was caught smoking weed?

yeah there was no such thing as The Sahelian kingdoms, Nubian Kingdoms, kingdom of Aksum, Munhumutapa Empire, Kingdom of Kongo etc etc

how ignorant.

Okay, I was VERY ignorantly stereotyping, but you do it all the time? Rather then recognize the good things of America, you almost inevitably recognize the bad things. Anyway that said, all these Kingdoms likely had slavery as terrible as our, so please give them their fair share critizism. Egypt, the greatist of all African Empires (in my opinion) relied off slavery considerably.

It's not really capitalism that causes the problem though, is it? It's those ridiculous farm subsidies like the CAP which stops the third world from developing its own food production infrastructure.

not really Africa in particular is plagued by the odd strategy of having an industrial revolution before an agricultural one (as a whole the world poorest continent is a net importer of food!)

Still, I have high hopes that this bio-fuel nonsense will go a long way towards solving the food problem.

just hope the market doesn't get cornered

It's not really capitalism that causes the problem though, is it?

Double standard.

"Communism" in and of itself did not cause Stalin or Mao either.

If a shooter goes to shoot somebody and a guy stands by and watchs when he could FOR certain stop it, I'm not going to like the guy at all.

I know what "inaction" means.

It seems to me that you're presupposing a capitalist distribution of wealth, and failing to take into account how capitalist property relations are necessarily the consequence of action.

yeah there was no such thing as The Sahelian kingdoms, Nubian Kingdoms, kingdom of Aksum, Munhumutapa Empire, Kingdom of Kongo etc etc

how ignorant.

Carthage?

Double standard.

"Communism" in and of itself did not cause Stalin or Mao either.



I know what "inaction" means.

It seems to me that you're presupposing a capitalist distribution of wealth, and failing to take into account how capitalist property relations are necessarily the consequence of action.

Alright your point. Capitalism caused AWFUL things, however I still cannot compare the extent its damage to that of Communsim.

Alright your point. Capitalism caused AFUL things, however I still cannot compare the extent its damage to that of Communsim.

Stalinism and Maoism massively raised life expectancies in the Soviet Union and China.

They did so at a pace substantially greater than that of many other non-communist countries.

It is STILL inaction, SELFISH inaction, but STILL INACTION.

yeah I suppose its alright when its just a homeless guy freezing to death

Okay, I was VERY ignorantly stereotyping, but you do it all the time? Rather then recognize the good things of America, you almost inevitably recognize the bad things. Anyway that said, all these Kingdoms likely had slavery as terrible as our, so please give them their fair share critizism. Egypt, the greatist of all African Empires (in my opinion) relied off slavery considerably.

1) this has nothing to do with America the idea that your the only nation that does nothing is just silly

2) actually Africa was more or less in the feudal ages when Europe started exploiting it so no slavery was rare though serfs are no improvement

3) no Egypt didn't rely on slavery to some massive extent, the pyramids where not built by slaves

Carthage?

Razed to the ground in pre-modern times.

I can't see how communism can even be compared to capitalist imperialism, something that has caused much more death and suffering and has been around for much longer.

Not only that, but without capitalism, people like Mao and possibly Stalin would never have become what they were.

any action for custard counts as a win against the pooey bruise that is labour.

Stalinism and Maoism massively raised life expectancies in the Soviet Union and China.

They did so at a pace substantially greater than that of many other non-communist countries.

Well, there is a simple aswer to that. When a large portion of the population dies the genes carry quickly, thus increasing life span. Anyway if you are trying to say longer life expectancies makes-up for mass murder of tens of millions (which I am truly hoping you are not) then you are as insane as Hitler (well then again he DID raise the economy).

I can't see how communism can even be compared to capitalist imperialism, something that has caused much more death and suffering and has been around for much longer.

Not only that, but without capitalism, people like Mao and possibly Stalin would never have become what they were.

lulz n00b

Carthage?

I tried to list all the sub-Saharan's civilizations as thats where people generally have the idea that it was populated by bushmen in mud huts

Alright your point. Capitalism caused AFUL things, however I still cannot compare the extent its damage to that of Communsim.

capitalism in one way or another has been around for centuries as for communism maybe if your lucky the French revolution

all in all I think capitalism is responsible for more suffering and death than anything I can think of

Not only that, but without capitalism, people like Mao and possibly Stalin would never have become what they were.

Yeah, well without people no-one could die. That's a terrible argument, Communsim is the parent of these Psychos.

Yeah, well without people no-one could die. That's a terrible argument, Communsim is the parent of these Psychos.

but capitalism is the parent of communism

Well, there is a simple aswer to that. When a large portion of the population dies the genes carry quickly, thus increasing life span

...zomg I can live forever!!!!11 *goes about killing people*

When a large portion of the population dies the genes carry quickly, thus increasing life span.

The selective pressure of tens of millions of people dying in a population of hundreds of millions isn't great enough to come anywhere close to having that effect.

Life expectancy was raised in China and the Soviet Union through health care, food distribution, and economic development.

Anyway if you are trying to say longer life expectancies makes-up for mass murder of tens of millions (which I am truly hoping you are not) then you are as insane as Hitler (well then again he DID raise the economy).

Let's not forget what "longer life expectancies" mean. They mean saved lives - millions and millions of them, in a population as large as that of China and the Soviet Union.

Obviously it doesn't "excuse" anything... but it calls to question whether or not Stalinism and Maoism are really the "worst" things humanity has ever done.

Me, I cast my vote for class society, and the systems of exclusive property and statism that tend to accompany it, at least in its more sophisticated and brutal forms.

Razed to the ground in pre-modern times.

Razed to the ground:
after...

1. consistently and constantly shaming the Roman senate.
2. Producing one of the most brilliant strategists who ever lived who danced in Roman territory for years on end.
3. Smashing multiple Roman assaults on their territory.
4. Possibly being the reason that Rome decided they actually needed a Navy.

but capitalism is the parent of communism

Exactly. My argument was perfectly valid: without capitalism screwing up China and Russia, there would be no communist revolutions.

EDIT: Perhaps I should respond to this a bit more thoroughly.

"Yeah, well without people no-one could die. That's a terrible argument, Communsim is the parent of these Psychos."

There's a difference between existing (not something you can alter, except via death) and government policies. Your analogy is much worse than my argument.

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

I think the Holocaust was very bad, but what's worse than the Holocaust itself is that some people (mostly Jew-hating anti-Semites) deny that it ever happened and call it Jewish propaganda or something. It is NOT propaganda; Adolf (or Adolph, however you want to spell his name; I have seen it both ways) Hitler really DID kill, torture, violate the human rights of, gas, cremate alive, and God alone knows what else to 6 million Jews or more.

there horrifying and also unnatural not "bad", "wrong" or "evil" such words are only fit for bedtime stories

Congratulations, you win the intellectual masturbation award.

Really, there's no differance between "horrific and also unnatural" and wrong except your misplaced hatred of morality, the only thing keeping a great many people from behavior normally associated with sociopathy.

In fact, I would venture to say that all the terrible things mentioned were quite natural. You only find them horrifying because you consider them "bad," "wrong," and yes, even "evil." Your revulsion to atrocities not occurring to your tribe or family is quite unnatural and only exists because of outside influences on your perceptions of right and wrong.

Unless of course, you posses some sort of enlightenment in which empathy flows from nature, but I doubt that.

Faking the moon landing. And cell phones.

First of all, for you capitalist and communists, constantly arguing over Stalin and Mao and starvation and greed: It's not because of capitalism that people are allowed to be greedy and cause mass starvation, and it's not because of Communism that Stalin and Mao were permitted to perpetrate their respective atrocities. What led to these circumstances was the evil inside all of us; it's as possible for us to become saints as it is to become Nazis, as possible for us to become Peace Corps activists as White Supremacists.

It is the duty of all people to insure that the evil inside every person does not even have the possibility of reigning upon the Earth, and to teach their inheritors to stop it from happening in the future. That's what allows people to be treated as property, that's what allows people to kill others because they are "different", that's what allows Stalin and Mao and starvation the Virginia Tech shootings.

At least that's the way I heard it from someone. Sorry if it was too preachy.

yeah I suppose its alright when its just a homeless guy freezing to death



1) this has nothing to do with America the idea that your the only nation that does nothing is just silly

2) actually Africa was more or less in the feudal ages when Europe started exploiting it so no slavery was rare though serfs are no improvement

3) no Egypt didn't rely on slavery to some massive extent, the pyramids where not built by slaves

Answer to your top question: who said homless people dying was alright?

1):This has a lot to do with America, arguably the most capitalist nation on Earth. America does do a lot. Look at how mcuh foreign aid they contribute a year?

2): Feudal? Excuse me, Greece had slaves in the classical age. Slaves did NOT, I repeat did NOT start with the industrial revoulution, but with the dawn of prisinors.

3): You sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Egypt kept P.O.W.s for slaves just like Greece, only treating them MUCH worse.

Create NSG :D

Evolve into homo sapiens.Nah, we shouldn't have left the oceans in the first place.

The worst we've done though? I don't know. I think evolving and socially reinforcing adherance to authority and tribe mentality, are the worst things we've done and continue to do. Without them, things like slave trade and the industrialised eradication of 'them' would never have happened.

Obviously it doesn't "excuse" anything... but it calls to question whether or not Stalinism and Maoism are really the "worst" things humanity has ever done.

I never said they were, I simply said they did worse things than Capitalism. Mao and Stalin didn't give a Bush's Speech about their people. If the life expectantcy increased, I fail to see how they had anything to do with it. Oh, sure they did indirectly, but certainly not directly. I can "feel in the force" that you don't feel nearly as much hatred for these people as you do for Bush.

...zomg I can live forever!!!!11 *goes about killing people*

You sir, are not educated. First-off I meant that the OFFSPRING get benifited by it, and that takes a bit. It has happened with humans before, the biggest time going back 10'000 years.

but capitalism is the parent of communism

How so? Communism is the OPPOSITE of Capitalism. Life is the OPPOSITE of death. Are you going to blame life for death, for surely without life there would be no death.

I tried to list all the sub-Saharan's civilizations as thats where people generally have the idea that it was populated by bushmen in mud huts



capitalism in one way or another has been around for centuries as for communism maybe if your lucky the French revolution

all in all I think capitalism is responsible for more suffering and death than anything I can think of

Good sir, I know it wasn't all populated by Bushmen, but the Bushmen are the ones I'd care to have anything to do with.

Communism apperently had to make up for lost time.

How so?

Mao and Stalin didn't give a Bush's Speech about their people.

Perhaps not, but many of the people involved in their regimes did.

If the life expectantcy increased, I fail to see how they had anything to do with it.

Um, we were not debating the crimes of Mao and Stalin.

We were debating the crimes of Stalinism/Maoism... the political and economic systems, not the particular figures who led them.

I can "feel in the force" that you don't feel nearly as much hatred for these people as you do for Bush.

And you probably hate Osama Bin Laden more than, say, Genghis Khan. So?

Of course, above all I hate states and class systems. Which nicely encompasses all of them.

I don't think that there is a true "good" and a true "evil". EVERY action has good actions (pros) and evil actions (cons). Even something as innocent as taking a walk in the grass; you've crushed living things under your feet, or maybe scared away the food for a predator. Existing itself is an action. But, to polarize anything is a major con. Although, I realize that ethier end can greatly overshadow the other. Take the holocaust, yes, many have died, but the scientest dicovered the link between cold and hypothermia, and the link between smoke and lung cancer. The ends definitly doesn't justifiy the means, but it does exist.
What's a real shame is no one mentioned the american indians once here.

What is the worst thing humanity has ever done?

Pretty much everything that has happened to indigenous American tribes since 1492 still gets my vote.

Pretty much everything that has happened to indigenous American tribes since 1492 still gets my vote.

Leif Erickson wasn't to kind to them either.

Perhaps not, but many of the people involved in their regimes did.

So? those people would have anyway, probably even more if the Commies didn't run things.



Um, we were not debating the crimes of Mao and Stalin.

We were debating the crimes of Stalinism/Maoism... the political and economic systems, not the particular figures who led them.

The leaders of the system are a product of it, just as Bush, you might say, is a product of Capitalism. However, if you don't agree with this theory, sure in theory Capitalism stinks, and Communsms rocks, put in practise things are MUCH different. For instance I DARE you to compare the poverty of the U.S. to that of China and Russia at ANY time.



And you probably hate Osama Bin Laden more than, say, Genghis Khan. So?


Where do you get that? And even if I did (which I don't) Ghengis allowed people to rise on the merits of their efforts, and on top of that he he was a soldier, not a coward like Osama. However, they both disguest me equally, Ghengis for the amount of damage he did (plus the fact that he was played by John Wayne :eeek:), and Osama for how he did it.

Of course, above all I hate states and class systems. Which nicely encompasses all of them.

Of course like you I hate them, and in THEORY Commmunism solves that problem, but in practise worsens it. I will assume that you'd prefer to live in America (the Capitalist center) over Russia (the Communist centre). And once again how much money do the Communists give to end world hunger? What about America? Sure they could do more, but they do a lot more then the Commies.

reproduce...

on a more serious note, i think the Holocaust takes the cake. the slave trade was horrible don't get me wrong, but they didn't throw slaves into the furnance on a daily basis. as pitiful as the conditions were for the slaves, that kind of death is not one a single person deserves.

How so? Communism is the OPPOSITE of Capitalism. Life is the OPPOSITE of death. Are you going to blame life for death, for surely without life there would be no death.

Technically, that's true. If there was no life, there would be no death. Equally, if there was no capitalism, communism as we know it would not have any basis to arise from.

Nah, we shouldn't have left the oceans in the first place.

The worst we've done though? I don't know. I think evolving and socially reinforcing adherance to authority and tribe mentality, are the worst things we've done and continue to do. Without them, things like slave trade and the industrialised eradication of 'them' would never have happened.

I feel this sudden urge to post a Douglas Adams quote here:

...And so the problem remained; lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches.

Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and no one should ever have left the oceans.

[/thread]

not really Africa in particular is plagued by the odd strategy of having an industrial revolution before an agricultural one (as a whole the world poorest continent is a net importer of food!)

Err... you've got that a bit mixed up. The Sudan and Sahel were one of the original areas the Agricultural Revolution took off. The Industrial Revolution, for the most part, passed Africa by, and is still doing so. One of the reasons Africa is so screwed up today is the post-colonial period attempts at a Communist Revolution in a largely pre-industrial society.

So? those people would have anyway, probably even more if the Commies didn't run things.

Um, I'm talking about "Commies."

The leaders of the system are a product of it

You utterly missed the point.

They may be. But they are not ALL THERE IS to the system.

For instance I DARE you to compare the poverty of the U.S. to that of China and Russia at ANY time.

Exactly.

Think about the implications of that last bit - "at ANY time."

Where do you get that?

Because most people do... Genghis Khan is dead and gone, and has been for centuries.

Osama Bin Laden, on the other hand, has caused direct harm to people alive today.

on top of that he he was a soldier, not a coward like Osama.

How is Bin Laden a coward?

Whatever else you may say of him, taking on the world's greatest military power is not the act of a cowardly man.

Of course like you I hate them,

You support their continued existence, which means you don't, really.

Perhaps you dislike certain aspects of them, but overall, you would prefer their continued presence to their abolition.

I will assume that you'd prefer to live in America (the Capitalist center) over Russia (the Communist centre).

Correlation is not causation, and Russia was never communist... it retained both the class system and the state.

And once again how much money do the Communists give to end world hunger?

This question, of course, is rhetorical. I'm going to answer it anyway.

Even in the perversions of communism, there was real and substantive effort at ending hunger. China and Cuba accomplished a very great deal in this regard.

Then there have been the efforts of Communist parties in, say, Kerala, India, where even more progress has been made.

The United States, on the other hand, has murderously opposed plenty of leftist governments actively seeking to end hunger, and supported plenty of regimes whose economic policies have been responsible for it.

The extinction of countless other species for no reason other than our own amusement and/or monetary gain.

Communism is definitely up there, unbelievable human misery on death on its account.

Slavery, as a historical institution, across cultures, is perhaps the worst.

Nazism isn't as bad as communism, but was still responsible for a lot of misery and death.

At least that's the way I heard it from someone. Sorry if it was too preachy.
Preachy, but accurate.

In any system implemented among men, there will be evil, especially when that system is devoted to ideologies; when people allow an idea to trump human dignity and life, the idea soon becomes a convenient excuse.

Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Jackson, Rockefeller, Ford, Pol Pot, Napoleon, Che, Mugabe, Pinochet... Whatever you may think of these men's ideologies, the common trend through all of them is that once they discovered their ideas could be enforced through violence or the threat of violence, they became addicted to it as a means to retain and amass their own power.

The worst thing humanity has ever done is inherent in our nature. In order to reap the substantial benefits of Society, we must and always do inevitably surrender power to others, and those others in all but a few circumstances are corrupted by the very abilities that allow them to lead, unbridled ambition and a desire for power. No matter what pretensions we make to democracy or equality, there will always be those that dominate others either officially or unofficially, and there will always be those that are all to willing to submit to undeserved authority, from the Amerindian tribesman laying down his life in a war for his Chief to the modern American voting for a politician.

Evil is inherent in leadership, and from this, all the worst human atrocities stem.

Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Jackson, Rockefeller, Ford, Pol Pot, Napoleon, Che, Mugabe, Pinochet... Whatever you may think of these men's ideologies, the common trend through all of them is that once they discovered their ideas could be enforced through violence or the threat of violence, they became addicted to it as a means to retain and amass their own power.



You should add Bush's name to this list.

electing George Bush as Prez.. stupid move

The Romans.

They used slaves from all over the worlds for hundreds of years. They also committed genocides that make the Holocaust look small time. During 1 Anti-jewish genocide, the killed 1 million Jews in THREE MONTHS!!



Another one is the Catholic Church. They have been rrsponsible for many genocides and they were also great slave traders for hundreds of years. the Catholic's tourtured people to force them to become Catholic.

i would have to say the formalizing and defacto worshiping of hierarchy, without which, few if any of the rest of its horrors and inequities could otherwise ever have been committed.

of course we would still need some degree of social organization to provide the infrastructure which makes possible the comfort zones we have come to imagine life not to be possible without. but such organization need not extend beyond the creation and maintainence of those physical infrastructures themselves, nor otherwise intrude into our daily lives. and if people were faced with this tradeoff more honestly and directly, perhapse many more would choose, were they given the choice, or able to feel that they had it, to opt out of quite as much comfort zone and the infrastructure that supports it, as they currently take for granted.

this would probably mean more of us being undernourished and fewer of us being overly so, and as a quite likely resault, a good many fewer of us all togather as well, but in case no ones noticed lately, it's not exactly like there's any real shortage of humans either.

=^^=
.../\...

also, while i do and must aggree, that leadership is a polite euphamism for bullying, i don't buy the pretense that it is inheierent in our nature to defacto worship the concept of formalized hierarchy.

i believe we've had other choices in the past, and continue to have them now. the priorities we actualy live by, are, what actualy creates (statisticly collectively) the incentives that motivate everyone, those in power included, even what, at very base, creates a market for the very structure and structuring of that power.

=^^=
.../\...

chips with ketchup. that is an abomination. chippy sauce is the only way to truth.

Have chips with either vinegar or mushy peas... mmmmm, yummy.

Faux News.

Everybody Loves Raymond.

Technically, that's true. If there was no life, there would be no death. Equally, if there was no capitalism, communism as we know it would not have any basis to arise from.

There for your argument is that Hitler isn't to blame for his actions, instead you would choose to blame people for coming into existence. Pardon me but I think that's a dumb way to reason.

Um, I'm talking about "Commies."

Surely you aren't going to say I'm not politically correct. :rolleyes:


You utterly missed the point.

They may be. But they are not ALL THERE IS to the system.

We aren't talking about the best of the system, we are obviously debating the worst (see thread title).

Exactly.

Think about the implications of that last bit - "at ANY time."

I guess you didn't hear about the revolution. The Czars pfft, it's Communist now.

Because most people do... Genghis Khan is dead and gone, and has been for centuries.

Osama Bin Laden, on the other hand, has caused direct harm to people alive today.

Granted.

How is Bin Laden a coward?

Whatever else you may say of him, taking on the world's greatest military power is not the act of a cowardly man.

Look HE isn't taking on the U.S, his leader (who acually has a sense of dignity) is. He just murders 1500 people and scurried for cover leaving his men to defend his. His men aren't cowards, but HE is. Ghengis acually FOUGHT with his enemy.


You support their continued existence, which means you don't, really.

Perhaps you dislike certain aspects of them, but overall, you would prefer their continued presence to their abolition.

Sir, apperently you have the misconception that all Conservatives are Bush. I'm not a Republican, I hate Bush, and I sure-as-hell don't support these people.


Correlation is not causation, and Russia was never communist... it retained both the class system and the state.

Excuse me, once again you missed your history lesson on the revolution.

This question, of course, is rhetorical. I'm going to answer it anyway.

Even in the perversions of communism, there was real and substantive effort at ending hunger. China and Cuba accomplished a very great deal in this regard.

Then there have been the efforts of Communist parties in, say, Kerala, India, where even more progress has been made.

The United States, on the other hand, has murderously opposed plenty of leftist governments actively seeking to end hunger, and supported plenty of regimes whose economic policies have been responsible for it.

Hog Shottis! Whilest I believe certain Communists out there care about world hunger, the nations you stated simply DO NOT. China suffers famines in it's own country on a regular basis and you're telling me that it's helping the rest of the world? It can't even help itself! And CUBA?!?! Castro locks-up anybody who gets AIDS to rot away their life and you're telling me he gives a ply? :p

Once again I state that Communism has a very noble intention, and Capitalism has a very selfish one, but Communism, in my opinion ruined 1/3 of the world, wheres Capitalism just heavily damaged it.

Surely you aren't going to say I'm not politically correct.

That wasn't my point at all.

I suggest you re-read the exchange.

We aren't talking about the best of the system, we are obviously debating the worst (see thread title).

No, we are debating the worst thing.

Things involve both good and bad. In order to judge them, as a whole, as either good or bad, we must take into account all elements.

I guess you didn't hear about the revolution. The Czars pfft, it's Communist now.

Um, I guess you haven't heard about the collapse of the Soviet Union either. :rolleyes:

You are aware that economic development is a historical process... one that is dependent on the degree of past progress?

In 1917, the United States was in a far better economic position than Russia... and then the Soviets had to deal with the Civil War and the Nazi invasion, while the US, if anything, benefited from global war more than it was harmed.

He just murders 1500 people and scurried for cover leaving his men to defend his.

True, he is not stupid.

But courage is not the same thing as stupidity.

Sir, apperently you have the misconception that all Conservatives are Bush. I'm not a Republican, I hate Bush, and I sure-as-hell don't support these people.

Bush has nothing to do with anything.

I referred to class systems and the state.

Excuse me, once again you missed your history lesson on the revolution.

The revolution that neither removed the state nor the class system, as communism must.

Have you been paying attention... at all?

China suffers famines in it's own country on a regular basis

DID suffer, and not on a regular basis.

And I'm referring to long-term progress, not short-term disruptions.

and you're telling me that it's helping the rest of the world?

Who said anything about "the rest of the world"?

We were talking about tackling world hunger... and whether the millions of hungry people are in your own country or in someone else's, it is the same struggle.

And CUBA?!?! Castro locks-up anybody who gets AIDS to rot away their life and you're telling me he gives a ply?

Red herring.

And, no, he doesn't.

The worst thing that humanity ever did:

















THEY PROCREATED!

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

You really are tragically ignorant aren't you?

Genghis Khan killed many more than the holocaust, simply to cow other states into submission. The ancient civilisations enslaved millions, for millenia, and in conditions far worse than those of the "nasty western slave trade!!!!!!!!!!!", and yet neither are even given consideration in your vain attempts to be modern and compassionate.

Grow up, get an education beyond that given to you by the media and state, and come back later. Good day.

You really are tragically ignorant aren't you?

Genghis Khan killed many more than the holocaust, simply to cow other states into submission. The ancient civilisations enslaved millions, for millenia, and in conditions far worse than those of the "nasty western slave trade!!!!!!!!!!!", and yet neither are even given consideration in your vain attempts to be modern and compassionate.

Grow up, get an education beyond that given to you by the media and state, and come back later. Good day.

Hmm? Touched a sore spot? So which state are you from again?

Hmm? Touched a sore spot? So which state are you from again?

O - O - O's my favorite letter! It comes right before


BURN!

Hmm? Touched a sore spot? So which state are you from again?

For some reason, it didn't surprise me that Chris's nomination for the worst acts of humanity were Asians.

Hmm? Touched a sore spot? So which state are you from again?

England. In any case, the OP both did, and, in the context I imagine you refer to, did not. Whilst I remain cautious of passing any moral judgement upon history, nominally being a historian, I do share the revulsion for the human tragedy entailed by the holocaust, and the slave trade.

However, the OP is simply one amongst a vexing legion of pseudo-intellectual moral commentators who seem to have no appreciation of history beyond that preached by the modern media. Whilst the likes of the holocaust resonate more due to their being more contemporary, it is ignorant to pass over the fact that genocide, exploitation, slavery and the like are endemic to human history, and, proportionally, neither the holocaust nor the slave trade are as great as some contend. A great proportion of Aztecs, Mayans and Olmecs suffered under a Spanish yoke, just as Africans laboured under a Anglo-French yoke.

Sorry, but morons like the OP really do get me on my hobby horse.

For some reason, it didn't surprise me that Chris's nomination for the worst acts of humanity were Asians.

I didn't cite them as being any worse than those perpetrated by Europeans, Africans, Amercans or any others. I merely cited them as evidence of the continuity of "human rights abuses" (god I want to punch whoever first used that term) throughout history.

Genghis Khan killed many more than the holocaust, simply to cow other states into submission.
Well, yeah but that was in war. If you are going to count Hitler's war first-off let's tack-on 20,000,000 Russians, then add the Holocaust, add the rest of the casualties...

As for what else you were saying, yeah slavery was awful and STILL is, but it's NOT the worse thing humanity has ever done. There are attrocities beyond description going on constantly if Africa, but yet the Liberals won't mention that (they wanna stay PC). Intead they say "Capitalism". Oh dear me! They say Communsim is fiiine. Perhaps they are thinking of Socialism. Communism says "not matter how much you work, we are taking away what you earned and giving to those who do jack." Capitalism ins't pretty, but the idea that it compares with the Holocaust, or something of the like is a Liberal mis-conception. For some reason they blame world-hunger on it, which is absurd. And once again, if any salve-trade is the worst, it's the African, but since it enslaves both whites and blacks it get's the Politiacally-Correct stamp-of-approval.

Well, yeah but that was in war. If you are going to count Hitler's war first-off let's tack-on 20,000,000 Russians, then add the Holocaust, add the rest of the casualties...

Lets discuss Russia then. How many died under Stalin? :)

In any case, the comparison is flawed. The scale of deaths of WW2 is the result primarily of the technologies and demographic forces employed, and hence to simply compare stale statistics when discussing different periods of history is futile.

Well, yeah but that was in war. If you are going to count Hitler's war first-off let's tack-on 20,000,000 Russians, then add the Holocaust, add the rest of the casualties...

As for what else you were saying, yeah slavery was awful and STILL is, but it's NOT the worse thing humanity has ever done. There are attrocities beyond description going on constantly if Africa, but yet the Liberals won't mention that (they wanna stay PC). Intead they say "Capitalism". Oh dear me! They say Communsim is fiiine. Perhaps they are thinking of Socialism. Communism says "not matter how much you work, we are taking away what you earned and giving to those who do jack." Capitalism ins't pretty, but the idea that it compares with the Halocaust, or something of the like is a Liberal mis-conception. For some reason they blame world-hunger on it, which is absurd. And once again, if any salve-trade is the worst, it's the African, but since it enslaves both whites and blacks it get's the Politiacally-Correct stamp-of-approval.

Thank you for that last part. That's all I want; a little reason and consideration, not just politically correct post-colonial sensationalism.

England. In any case, the OP both did, and, in the context I imagine you refer to, did not. Whilst I remain cautious of passing any moral judgement upon history, nominally being a historian, I do share the revulsion for the human tragedy entailed by the holocaust, and the slave trade.

However, the OP is simply one amongst a vexing legion of pseudo-intellectual moral commentators who seem to have no appreciation of history beyond that preached by the modern media. Whilst the likes of the holocaust resonate more due to their being more contemporary, it is ignorant to pass over the fact that genocide, exploitation, slavery and the like are endemic to human history, and, proportionally, neither the holocaust nor the slave trade are as great as some contend. A great proportion of Aztecs, Mayans and Olmecs suffered under a Spanish yoke, just as Africans laboured under a Anglo-French yoke.

Sorry, but morons like the OP really do get me on my hobby horse.

For some reason I thought you were in the US. Sorry about that.

Still, you made many assumptions about the OP.

What's wrong with him being offended?

Rather then calling him names why not further his knowledge by pointing out sources etc?

I read more he wanted to share something he didn't know.......

I'd just like to point out, to those saying communism is responsible for so much suffering, that saying communism is directly responsible for the acts of Stalin and such, is like saying that Jesus was directly responsible for the Crusades. Yes, those things/people were part of the cause, but do they bear responsibility? To use a random example, are you responsible if you throw out a piece of trash that some bum finds in a dumpster, sharpens, and uses to slit someone's throat?

You really are tragically ignorant aren't you?

Genghis Khan killed many more than the holocaust, simply to cow other states into submission. The ancient civilisations enslaved millions, for millenia, and in conditions far worse than those of the "nasty western slave trade!!!!!!!!!!!", and yet neither are even given consideration in your vain attempts to be modern and compassionate.

Grow up, get an education beyond that given to you by the media and state, and come back later. Good day.

whoa...calm down, man

you could have just said

"you are wrong, IMO Ghenghis Khan killed a ton of more people than the Holocaust or the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade"

you are entitled to your opinion, but you sir are a jackass

Burma Railroad, bloody Japanese.

whoa...calm down, man

you could have just said

"you are wrong, IMO Ghenghis Khan killed a ton of more people than the Holocaust or the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade"

you are entitled to your opinion, but you sir are a jackass

In his opinion Genghis Kahn killed more people? How many people Genghis and Hitler killed are historical facts. It's not subject to opinions.

you are entitled to your opinion, but you sir are a jackass

He may be a jackass but historically speaking, he's dead on. The Mongol Empire claimed as many as 60,000,000 lives in a couple decades. The shear loss of life, knowledge, and cultural progress because of what one man started is incalculable and vastly worse then anything the modern world has shown us. Taking into consideration that the Mongols destroyed the Abbasid Caliphate, sacked Baghdad (including a Library on par with Alexandria), virtually annihilated the Hashshashins, and killing over 1,000,000 in the process of ONE BATTLE ALONE, leaving perhaps the greatest city in the world a smoldering, stinking heap and setting back an entire region by centuries... I'd say they deserve a little more then a milquetoast afterthought to Hitler and Slavery.

And we'll not even MENTION China and it's mind-boggling capacity for killing themselves in staggering numbers. :eek:

He may be a jackass but historically speaking, he's dead on. The Mongol Empire claimed as many as 60,000,000 lives in a couple decades. The shear loss of life, knowledge, and cultural progress because of what one man started is incalculable and vastly worse then anything the modern world has shown us. Taking into consideration that the Mongols destroyed the Abbasid Caliphate, sacked Baghdad (including a Library on par with Alexandria), virtually annihilated the Hashshashins, and killing over 1,000,000 in the process of ONE BATTLE ALONE, leaving perhaps the greatest city in the world a smoldering, stinking heap and setting back an entire region by centuries... I'd say they deserve a little more then a milquetoast afterthought to Hitler and Slavery.

And we'll not even MENTION China and it's mind-boggling capacity for killing themselves in staggering numbers. :eek:

I'm not saying he's wrong and that I am right, maybe the Mongols were worse... I'm saying he doesn't have to be a jerk and resort to petty name-calling to further his point

There for your argument is that Hitler isn't to blame for his actions, instead you would choose to blame people for coming into existence. Pardon me but I think that's a dumb way to reason.

If there were no people, there wouldn't be a Hitler now would there? Like it or not, he still counts as a 'person'. Besides, blame games usually ignore the whole story. Sure, Hitler was a loony, but he didn't just wake up one day and go "Kill all the non-Aryans!"

You'd be surprised at how much external stuff is needed to create the end product.

I'd just like to point out, to those saying communism is responsible for so much suffering, that saying communism is directly responsible for the acts of Stalin and such, is like saying that Jesus was directly responsible for the Crusades. Yes, those things/people were part of the cause, but do they bear responsibility? To use a random example, are you responsible if you throw out a piece of trash that some bum finds in a dumpster, sharpens, and uses to slit someone's throat?

Well Russia was a stupid place to try to bring about a communist utopia; It was in a country that traditionally had it's leaders as either all powerful czars or puppets held up by an equally iron fisted aristocracy. It had very low shortages of industial equipment and little home based intellectuals, making its technology second rate.

It was also seperated from asia by siberia, so it didn't have a massive amount of trading there, it had no warm water ports and all of the countries that bordered it then hated russia for making them part of it for a long time. So no trading or inflow of trained people from europe.

Well Russia was a stupid place to try to bring about a communist utopia; It was in a country that traditionally had it's leaders as either all powerful czars or puppets held up by an equally iron fisted aristocracy. It had very low shortages of industial equipment and little home based intellectuals, making its technology second rate.

It was also seperated from asia by siberia, so it didn't have a massive amount of trading there, it had no warm water ports and all of the countries that bordered it then hated russia for making them part of it for a long time. So no trading or inflow of trained people from europe.

That may all be true, but you didn't really answer my post. It seems to have been quoted solely for decorative purposes.

EDIT: To clarify my earlier post, when I said things/people I meant such indirect factors as communism/Jesus, which don't include Stalin and the like, whom I obviously regard as directly responsible for their own actions.

my vote gos to everything the russian government has ever done since the rise of the czars

EDIT: To clarify my earlier post, when I said things/people I meant such indirect factors as communism/Jesus, which don't include Stalin and the like, whom I obviously regard as directly responsible for their own actions.

I was just stating a reason why Stalin managed to not only erode protection against total control by an individual but why everyone went along with it and brought along a new class of oppressors. It would have been a lot harder in a more prosperous country. Then you get countries with a high degree of nationalism along with a widely viewed slumped economy by their citizens, along with short term successes.

Yep, they were directly responsible. Yet they were also affected by the environment around them.

To me it's between betraying your allys and family and slavery

I was watching the movie Amistad and the slavery scenes just really...ugh...made me so angry, sad and depressed at the same time...and the other day my class went on this trip to a Holocaust symposium (I forgot my permission slip D'OH)....but all that got me thinking what is the worst tragedy or atrocity ever commited by people, on people?

I think I would go with the the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

Anyway...what is the worst one?

Extinction of species and maybe Homo-neanderthalis (sp?)
millions of years of slowly evolving life destroyed.

No matter how shit one groups of people have treated another, most peoples legacies still live on genetically.

Life expectancy was raised in China and the Soviet Union through health care, food distribution, and economic development.

Let's not forget what "longer life expectancies" mean. They mean saved lives - millions and millions of them, in a population as large as that of China and the Soviet Union.

Obviously it doesn't "excuse" anything... but it calls to question whether or not Stalinism and Maoism are really the "worst" things humanity has ever done.

Me, I cast my vote for class society, and the systems of exclusive property and statism that tend to accompany it, at least in its more sophisticated and brutal forms.

Thank you for putting it so well.

I like the state though...

To all those claiming that capitalism "causes" world hunger etc: Do you really think that no one starved to death prior to capitalism? It's not a coincidence that Britain has not experienced famine since the 1590s, but did so quite frequently before.

My vote goes to World War I, because, besides being pretty horrible in itself, it can also be indirectly blamed for quite a number of the horrors that followed (rise of communism, holocaust...)

crucufuxion as a form of punishment??

all the other horrible torturous deaths of that age? maybe i dunno...

my vote gos to everything the russian government has ever done since the rise of the czars

let me guess your american...

Life expectancy was raised in China and the Soviet Union through health care, food distribution, and economic development.

Let's not forget what "longer life expectancies" mean. They mean saved lives - millions and millions of them, in a population as large as that of China and the Soviet Union.

Obviously it doesn't "excuse" anything... but it calls to question whether or not Stalinism and Maoism are really the "worst" things humanity has ever done.


Every single peice of data I have about the soviet union and Mao have been in direct conflict with that. I have seen some data suggesting that life expectency was risen under Mao in history class, but that data was shown to be made up by Maos government.

Landing the rules of engagement on united states troops, oh look we are in a war and we can't fight cus we don't want to hurt them...oh hey look some stupid person is trying to kill me in this war.

let me guess your american...

Can I ask, do you think Lenin was a good leader?

Can I ask, do you think Lenin was a good leader?I don't, but if you think the monsters you've mentioned can ever compare to the devastation wrought by mercantilist economic hegemony, you're living in a dream world.
We - you and I - are the modern czars. Like Saint Petersburg, our way of live is build on the bleached bones of the masses of people born to less fortunate circumstances than ourselves, and we maintain that lifestyle by adding corpses to the pile.

But hey, fuck it. Blood for the blood god. Skulls for the throne of Khorne.

I think I would go with the the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade just because it lasted about 400 years and it was commited by all western nations, not just one.

South America and Africa had horrific slavery practices down before there was even a "west". All we did was commercialize it.

I don't, but if you think the monsters you've mentioned

I havn't mentioned anyone


can ever compare to the devastation wrought by mercantilist economic hegemony, you're living in a dream world.
We - you and I - are the modern czars. Like Saint Petersburg, our way of live is build on the bleached bones of the masses of people born to less fortunate circumstances than ourselves, and we maintain that lifestyle by adding corpses to the pile.

But hey, fuck it. Blood for the blood god. Skulls for the throne of Khorne.

What exactly are you saying?

The worst thing humanity has done is create mullets.

Eurovision.

I'd say holding back knowledge from all but an elite few could probably be traced back as being the worst thing humanity has ever done.

I havn't mentioned anyone The way you joined Thewayoftheclosedfist's train of thought, led me to assume you were the same poster. My fault, I wasn't paying attention - and I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.What exactly are you saying?What I'm saying is that the way of life of us, the privileged 20% of the peoples of Earth, live off the backs of the not-so-lucky 80%. Poverty, a direct consequence of our global mercantilist hegemony, kills more people, starts more wars, and is the primary motivation for more inhuman (and frequently lethal) legislation, than anything else in the history of our species. It's beyond comparison to any other single travesty we've ever engaged in. Hell, Stalin looks like a lovely old grandmother by comparison.

My little warhammer reference was just to inject a little black humour. Mostly because our disregard for our peers indeed does border on actual malice.

Every single peice of data I have about the soviet union and Mao have been in direct conflict with that.

"Supporters of Mao credit him with advancing the social and economic development of Chinese society. They point out that before 1949, for instance, the illiteracy rate in Mainland China was 80 percent, and life expectancy was a meager 35 years. At his death, illiteracy had declined to less than seven percent, and average life expectancy had increased to more than 70 years (alternative statistics also quote improvements, though not nearly as dramatic)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao#Legacy

Communism

"Humanity" has done nothing.

Individuals have done plenty of things. Most of those things, good or bad, were done by individuals who were not me.

"Humanity" has done nothing.

Individuals have done plenty of things. Most of those things, good or bad, were done by individuals who were not me.

What about mine? I thought mine was pretty good and not on individualistic terms.