NationStates Jolt Archive

Near-death experiences:

Transcendental journeys to another dimension of reality, which provide evidence of the afterlife theory?

Sensory hallucinations resulting from the conditions in the brain during periods of critical physiological strain?

You decide!

Here's an FAQ from a site that describes itself as "Near-Death Central."

http://www.near-death.com/faq.html

I have no idea what you are talking about, so here is a pancake with a bunny on it's head.

Here's an FAQ from a site that describes itself as "Near-Death Central."

http://www.near-death.com/faq.html

Did you read the part on that site where a woman, blind from birth, had a NDE and saw her body when she was doing the floating on the ceiling thing. She claims to have experienced sight. Weird. Can people who have never used their eyes hallucinate sight?

Cool.

Hallucinations as far as I know. I mainly think of it as a way for the body and mind to make death a bit more pleasant. Some people I know who almost drowned(Inhaled half their lungs full of water, pretty much) and were minutes away from death described it as if everything suddenly went calm and warm and they just go drowsy. But I guess that sort of experience would certainly fall under hallucinations.

Did you read the part on that site where a woman, blind from birth, had a NDE and saw her body when she was doing the floating on the ceiling thing. She claims to have experienced sight. Weird. Can people who have never used their eyes hallucinate sight?

Cool.

If it was her eyes which was faulty, I'm sure the brain in itself is capable of producing images based on what she knows from touch. Still facinating though... must be a wierd experience for sure.

I have no idea what you are talking about, so here is a pancake with a bunny on it's head.
That's why I helpfully included an FAQ about near-death experiences!

The More You Know!(tm)

The More You Know!(tm)

....The more you realise how little you know?

;)

Can people who have never used their eyes hallucinate sight?

Sort of.

Our sense of sight requires a bunch of different elements. The eyes, of course, but also a variety of brain regions.

A person can be blind because of physical problems with the eyes themselves. In this case, the brain regions responsible for sight may still be present and potentially functioning...they just aren't receiving any input, so you don't "see" anything.

A person can also be blind even if their eyes are physically fine. If you knock out the regions of the brain that process visual information, then it won't matter what your eyes are doing...you still won't be able to "see" anything at all, because the input has nowhere to go!

(Related: there's a really fascinating phenomenon called "blindsight" in people who are blind due to visual cortex damage. Here's a link to a quick article about it. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1101_051101_blindsight.html)

So, for example, a person who is blind due to physical problems with the eye could still experience visual perceptions if specific areas of the brain received stimulation.

Did you read the part on that site where a woman, blind from birth, had a NDE and saw her body when she was doing the floating on the ceiling thing. She claims to have experienced sight. Weird. Can people who have never used their eyes hallucinate sight?

Cool.

i got that (floating on the cieling, looking down on myself) thing when they stuck me full of morphine in the hospital after a car crash a few years back. i was unconious (apparently) but i remember the things they did and some of the things that were said before floating through the hospital on the way to a ward.

i wasn't remotely near death though. so i should guess that since the experience is repeatable without a NDE, the "soul leaving your body" idea is bunk.


however, the blind thing is quite extraordinary :)

Can people who have never used their eyes hallucinate sight?

Cool.

LSD ftw :D

i got that (floating on the cieling, looking down on myself) thing when they stuck me full of morphine in the hospital after a car crash a few years back. i was unconious (apparently) but i remember the things they did and some of the things that were said before floating through the hospital on the way to a ward.
I read about something kind of cool along these lines:

Fighter pilots are routinely put in those centrifuge chair dealies to test their physical response to extreme Gs. Apparently, one of the people who runs the centrifuge machine noticed that when pilots passed out from the extreme G forces (which basically push blood out of the brain and thus lead to unconsciousness) they would almost always report experiencing something akin to "near-death experiences." Really vivid hallucinations, the sensation of leaving one's body, etc.

I thought that was neat.

I'm surprised, though, that nobody has come forward as a believer in near-death experiences. I thought we had at least a few people around the forums who firmly believe in souls and life after death.

all most been in a car crash never saw a thing, just shock after my friend pulled his car over to side of the road

Sensory hallucinations resulting from the conditions in the brain during periods of critical physiological strain

That one.

I'm surprised, though, that nobody has come forward as a believer in near-death experiences. I thought we had at least a few people around the forums who firmly believe in souls and life after death.

This is a predominately athiest forum. NDE's don't fit well with atheism.

I'm not sure. I think the majority of people who report them are full of it. It doesn't mean I don't believe it.

I'm really not sure. I don't think this is something that could ever be explained by science.

I read that some hospitals put messages above the lights or in other places so only someone looking down would see them. So far, no dice.

I'm surprised, though, that nobody has come forward as a believer in near-death experiences. I thought we had at least a few people around the forums who firmly believe in souls and life after death.
I believe in an afterlife and souls and such, and don't believe in near death experiences, I think it's some sort of brain trick, in fact my husband almost drowned when he was about 14 and he saw the white light and all, and he even thinks it was his brain gone wonky.

I don't believe in ghosts either.

Just because I believe in some things doesn't mean I believe in all things.

I believe in an afterlife and souls and such, and don't believe in near death experiences, I think it's some sort of brain trick, in fact my husband almost drowned when he was about 14 and he saw the white light and all, and he even thinks it was his brain gone wonky.

I don't believe in ghosts either.

Just because I believe in some things doesn't mean I believe in all things.
That's fair, but I'm curious: if you believe that there is life after death, why don't you believe people have near-death experiences like the ones that are often described?

That's fair, but I'm curious: if you believe that there is life after death, why don't you believe people have near-death experiences like the ones that are often described?

it's because of what I believe about God, and heaven and hell and stuff, and the fact that they have been able to re-create the experiences by various methods.

That's fair, but I'm curious: if you believe that there is life after death, why don't you believe people have near-death experiences like the ones that are often described?

I think for many people it is that it tries to blend two realities.

Which is to say, even if we have a soul, and that soul enters heaven upon our death, the idea of a soul actually physically LEAVING the body and physically ascending UPWARDS through the room, which can be seen around you, is just a bit too silly.

it's because of what I believe about God, and heaven and hell and stuff, and the fact that they have been able to re-create the experiences by various methods.
Fair enough. Was just wondering.

I think for many people it is that it tries to blend two realities.

Which is to say, even if we have a soul, and that soul enters heaven upon our death, the idea of a soul actually physically LEAVING the body and physically ascending UPWARDS through the room, which can be seen around you, is just a bit too silly.
Well, one could argue that human consciousness and perceptions have limits, and our minds try to put things in terms that we can understand.

Also, one would assume that the moment of one's death would be particularly disorienting and confusing. You've spent your whole conscious life experiencing the world through physical perception, but all of a sudden you're leaving your body behind and perceiving the world through some other means. It would be reasonable to guess that maybe your mind would still be trying to put things in terms of physical reality, since you wouldn't have made the adjustment to "spirit form" or whatever.

Well, one could argue that human consciousness and perceptions have limits, and our minds try to put things in terms that we can understand.

Also, one would assume that the moment of one's death would be particularly disorienting and confusing. You've spent your whole conscious life experiencing the world through physical perception, but all of a sudden you're leaving your body behind and perceiving the world through some other means. It would be reasonable to guess that maybe your mind would still be trying to put things in terms of physical reality, since you wouldn't have made the adjustment to "spirit form" or whatever.

I'm surprised at you. You're a scientist.

Why don't you devise an experiment on say, 1000 people, and have them brought to "near-death" by a whiff of hydrogen sulfide, and then try and measure the NDE - don't rely on the observations of the subjects, who may be hallucinating.

Yes, measure away.

I'm surprised, though, that nobody has come forward as a believer in near-death experiences. I thought we had at least a few people around the forums who firmly believe in souls and life after death.

Belief in souls and life after death does not necessitate that one believes the experiences people describe as "near-death experiences" are truly a glimpse of the afterlife. They might be, they might not be. They could be random firings in the brain that represent what a person thinks will happen when they die. (NDEs are, after all, near-death, not actual death)

Personally, while I won't dismiss things out of hand, I tend to be skeptical about things I have not (or cannot fairly easily) experience. Much like people who claim to have seen ghosts, I think that many people who describe NDEs definitely had an experience that they perceived as a glimpse into the afterlife. But until I see ghosts or have such an experience, I will continue to be skeptical of the actual cause for both.

Well, one could argue that human consciousness and perceptions have limits, and our minds try to put things in terms that we can understand.

Also, one would assume that the moment of one's death would be particularly disorienting and confusing. You've spent your whole conscious life experiencing the world through physical perception, but all of a sudden you're leaving your body behind and perceiving the world through some other means. It would be reasonable to guess that maybe your mind would still be trying to put things in terms of physical reality, since you wouldn't have made the adjustment to "spirit form" or whatever.

I would assume that "nearly dying" is quite stressful, maybe it's something your body does to try to calm you.

I mean there is no way for us to know what the "actually dying" see or hear, or experience, maybe nothing, it's the "near death" group who writes books and blogs, and goes on 2am TV trying to explain it.....maybe they just had some sort of seizure.

That's fair, but I'm curious: if you believe that there is life after death, why don't you believe people have near-death experiences like the ones that are often described?

Maybe, just maybe, because it isn't a necessary component of Christian thought?

I'm surprised at you. You're a scientist.

Why don't you devise an experiment on say, 1000 people, and have them brought to "near-death" by a whiff of hydrogen sulfide, and then try and measure the NDE - don't rely on the observations of the subjects, who may be hallucinating.

Yes, measure away.

Hey, I was just playing the speculation game!

I don't personally believe that individual consciousness continues after brain death.

Maybe, just maybe, because it isn't a necessary component of Christian thought?
Never claimed it was. I don't think I even said anything about the souls or afterlife needing to be Christian.

Belief in souls and life after death does not necessitate that one believes the experiences people describe as "near-death experiences" are truly a glimpse of the afterlife. They might be, they might not be. They could be random firings in the brain that represent what a person thinks will happen when they die. (NDEs are, after all, near-death, not actual death)

Absolutely. I just was thinking that IF you believe that there is a "soul" or a form of human consciousness that lives on after death, it must be a bit harder to discard NDEs. Why not assume that the soul begins to leave the body when physical death is imminent? Why not assume that, for instance, the crazy goings on in the brain during an NDE are actually CAUSED by the fact that the soul is leaving the body?


Personally, while I won't dismiss things out of hand, I tend to be skeptical about things I have not (or cannot fairly easily) experience. Much like people who claim to have seen ghosts, I think that many people who describe NDEs definitely had an experience that they perceived as a glimpse into the afterlife. But until I see ghosts or have such an experience, I will continue to be skeptical of the actual cause for both.
There are degrees of skeptical.

Do you believe in the existence of individuals whom you have never met? Do you believe that the Holy Roman Empire existed, even though you never experienced it?

Would you say that your skepticism about NDEs and ghosts is the same as your skepticism regarding the existence of the Holy Roman Empire, or would you say you are more skeptical of NDEs and ghosts?

Absolutely. I just was thinking that IF you believe that there is a "soul" or a form of human consciousness that lives on after death, it must be a bit harder to discard NDEs. Why not assume that the soul begins to leave the body when physical death is imminent? Why not assume that, for instance, the crazy goings on in the brain during an NDE are actually CAUSED by the fact that the soul is leaving the body?

I tend to shy away from assumptions I can't back up. =) That's my point though. I'm not going to assume anything with this. People who have NDEs might be experiencing a glimpse of life after death - might be starting the process and then being called back, as it were. They might be experiencing hallucinations. It might be that nothing of the sort happens and the memories of having it happen are somehow caused when the heart starts back up and oxygen flow to the brain is restored. There are all sorts of possibilities, and I have little information that I can use to discern between them.

There are degrees of skeptical.

Do you believe in the existence of individuals whom you have never met? Do you believe that the Holy Roman Empire existed, even though you never experienced it?

Would you say that your skepticism about NDEs and ghosts is the same as your skepticism regarding the existence of the Holy Roman Empire, or would you say you are more skeptical of NDEs and ghosts?

More skeptical. I can visit the sites and read the documents that lead us to believe that there was a Holy Roman Empire. I can examine the evidence of a particular person existing, whether I have met them or not. I cannot, on the other hand, personally take on someone else's experience of ghosts or NDEs.

I tend to shy away from assumptions I can't back up. =) That's my point though. I'm not going to assume anything with this. People who have NDEs might be experiencing a glimpse of life after death - might be starting the process and then being called back, as it were. They might be experiencing hallucinations. It might be that nothing of the sort happens and the memories of having it happen are somehow caused when the heart starts back up and oxygen flow to the brain is restored. There are all sorts of possibilities, and I have little information that I can use to discern between them.



More skeptical. I can visit the sites and read the documents that lead us to believe that there was a Holy Roman Empire. I can examine the evidence of a particular person existing, whether I have met them or not. I cannot, on the other hand, personally take on someone else's experience of ghosts or NDEs.
That is all annoyingly rational and reasonable.

As usual. ;)

Once, on a flight, the airplane took a deep dip and I thought the engines gave out and I thought I was going to die for about a second.

Then the pilot announced we were about to land, and I was relieved.