NationStates Jolt Archive

A showman at the 1st May concert in Rome blamed the Pope and the Catholic Church for denying religious funerals to a paralysed person who choose to stop his life-supporting treatment last year (italian Piergiorgio Welby, his case has stirred a huge debate about euthanasia and right to death). The Church - said the showman - had nothing to object with religious funerals for former dictator Pinochet, responsible of many murders (in the orders of tens of thousands).
The showman added: this is consequent with catholic theology, because Christ had two thieves, not two paralytics, crucifixed near him.

THE OUTRAGE!

"L' Osservatore Romano" (the daily newspaper of the Vatican State) said that "attacking the Pope is a form of terrorism" (sic!). Also a choir of right-wing and centre politics attacking the mishap showman. It looks like Pope Natzinger is on the lines of Mr.Bush: "who is not with me, is a terrorist".

Now, since in Italy there are laws against terrorism, false accusations (slandering) and libelling, I do hope, for the sake of the credibility of this State, that "L' Osservatore Romano" (published in Italy) will be prosecuted for slandering and libelling. I fear, however, that this won't happen because of political pressure. Scheiße.

Side note, this happens 60 years after our Constitution stated that:
(from art.3) "All citizens have equal social dignity and are equal before the law..."
(from art.7) "The State and the Catholic Church are, each within its own order, independent and sovereign."
(from art.19) "All have the right to profess freely their own religious faith in whatever form..."
(from art.20) "The ecclesiastical nature and the purpose of religion or worship of an association may not be a cause for special limitations in law..."
(from art.21) "All have the right to express freely their own thought..."

Gah, religion. Driving you crazy 365 days per year.

And the "daily newspaper of Vatican State" needs to pull their head out of their ass, desperately.

Edit: Out of curiosity (aka my knowledge about Italy rapidly approaches zero) where does the rest of the country stand on this? Is the outrage only confined to the Vatican and the staunchest of Catholics? Or is Italy still catholic enough to get outraged here?

Gah, religion. Driving you crazy 365 days per year.

And the "daily newspaper of Vatican State" needs to pull their head out of their ass, desperately.

Edit: Out of curiosity (aka my knowledge about Italy rapidly approaches zero) where does the rest of the country stand on this? Is the outrage only confined to the Vatican and the staunchest of Catholics? Or is Italy still catholic enough to get outraged here?

The outrage is confined to some (quite influential) sectors of the Vatican, some of the CEI (Italian Episcopal Conference) and some politicians (even in the centre-left coalition, namely Mrs.Binetti of the DL-Margherita centre-wing party) who are desperately trying to catch support from the hard-core catholics; anyway, most italian catholics have taken the whole affair as generally laughable, and as a proof that the Church is meddling into italian politics too much.
Italy is very catholic... as a façade, usually. Many people claim to be catholic just because they think the "have" to be catholic. Also many catholics maintain a healthy open-mindedness and critical sense when it comes to political issues

BTW, every four years, religions drives me crazy 366 days a year.;)

http://opendoors.no-ip.org/usr/kookus/oppressed.gif

You're the paranoid one.

http://opendoors.no-ip.org/usr/kookus/oppressed.gif

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/100de9.gif

Gah, religion. Driving you crazy 365 days per year.

The same can be said of the secular world. How many outrages have been documented in officially non-religious states? We shouldn't be too quick to so broadly generalize.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/100de9.gif
I've never seen that before.:eek:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/100de9.gif

I don't get it.

I don't get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pac-Man

A showman at the 1st May concert in Rome blamed the Pope and the Catholic Church for denying religious funerals to a paralysed person who choose to stop his life-supporting treatment last year (italian Piergiorgio Welby, his case has stirred a huge debate about euthanasia and right to death). The Church - said the showman - had nothing to object with religious funerals for former dictator Pinochet, responsible of many murders (in the orders of tens of thousands).
The showman added: this is consequent with catholic theology, because Christ had two thieves, not two paralytics, crucifixed near him.

THE OUTRAGE!

"L' Osservatore Romano" (the daily newspaper of the Vatican State) said that "attacking the Pope is a form of terrorism" (sic!). Also a choir of right-wing and centre politics attacking the mishap showman. It looks like Pope Natzinger is on the lines of Mr.Bush: "who is not with me, is a terrorist".

Now, since in Italy there are laws against terrorism, false accusations (slandering) and libelling, I do hope, for the sake of the credibility of this State, that "L' Osservatore Romano" (published in Italy) will be prosecuted for slandering and libelling. I fear, however, that this won't happen because of political pressure. Scheiße.

Side note, this happens 60 years after our Constitution stated that:
(from art.3) "All citizens have equal social dignity and are equal before the law..."
(from art.7) "The State and the Catholic Church are, each within its own order, independent and sovereign."
(from art.19) "All have the right to profess freely their own religious faith in whatever form..."
(from art.20) "The ecclesiastical nature and the purpose of religion or worship of an association may not be a cause for special limitations in law..."
(from art.21) "All have the right to express freely their own thought..."

So, let me see if I understand ... The Catholic Church refused consecrated burial to a man who, in their eyes, committed suicide by stopping his life support? And people are surprised? I'm not even Catholic and I understand that the Church considers suicide a mortal sin.

So, let me see if I understand ... The Catholic Church refused consecrated burial to a man who, in their eyes, committed suicide by stopping his life support? And people are surprised? I'm not even Catholic and I understand that the Church considers suicide a mortal sin.

Well... the showman at the concert was just making a point by stating that a paralytic choosing to stop his own life support is a mortal sinner unrepentant, while a mass murderer like Pinochet isn't. The outrage of the Church looks like what we in Italy call a "straw tail".

Well... the showman at the concert was just making a point by stating that a paralytic choosing to stop his own life support is a mortal sinner unrepentant, while a mass murderer like Pinochet isn't. The outrage of the Church looks like what we in Italy call a "straw tail".

Well, if you understand catholic doctrine this is exactly how it is... The reason a person who has committed suicide is considered unrepentent is because he can't repent for something after he's dead! And the fact that he was paralyzed has nothing to do with anything. Also, who knows, maybe pinochet did repent in his last days noone knows for sure I guess (though I'd say its unlikely).

Well now, you all know you can't slander the antichrist.

Also many catholics maintain a healthy open-mindedness and critical sense when it comes to political issues

I'm catholic, but that kind of catholic. And the arguing one. I use birth control, I believe in sex before marriage, and I eat meat during the Holy Season, of the both kinds. And I yell at priests about that. However, jesuit priests seem to be the right kind of priests to yell at, they're good at discussing and concede points. And no, I don't do anything the pope tells me to do.

And well, I love to put names on Benedicto XVI, "Panzer Pope", "Ratzinger Z"...

Spanish catholics are sooo similar to italians ones...

Well, if you understand catholic doctrine this is exactly how it is... The reason a person who has committed suicide is considered unrepentent is because he can't repent for something after he's dead! And the fact that he was paralyzed has nothing to do with anything. Also, who knows, maybe pinochet did repent in his last days noone knows for sure I guess (though I'd say its unlikely).

Yes, I know, the showman knew, everyone knows. But it's still ironic and somewhat paradoxal, isn't it?

Anyway, the main issue is the "aaggh! he criticises! he's a terrorist!" answer to a basically harmless joke.

I'm catholic, but that kind of catholic. And the arguing one. I use birth control, I believe in sex before marriage, and I eat meat during the Holy Season, of the both kinds. And I yell at priests about that. However, jesuit priests seem to be the right kind of priests to yell at, they're good at discussing and concede points. And no, I don't do anything the pope tells me to do.

My girlfriend is catholic, and she's also a communist.:D A "cattocomunista" as we usually say. And she doesn't like this Pope at all - nor did she like JP2 very much, she liked Paul VI and poor JP1 more.

Anyway, jesuites rock. They're real geniuses... here in Milan we had Carlo Maria Martini as archbishop, he's a jesuite and one of the most cultured man around.


And well, I love to put names on Benedicto XVI, "Panzer Pope", "Ratzinger Z"...Spanish catholics are sooo similar to italians ones...

I usually call him "Natzinger" or, here on NS, "His HolineSS" (too bad I can't render the "SS" with the right font). "Ratzinger Z" and "The Great Ratzinga" are big favourites here, too.

My girlfriend is catholic, and she's also a communist.:D A "cattocomunista" as we usually say. And she doesn't like this Pope at all - nor did she like JP2 very much, she liked Paul VI and poor JP1 more.

Anyway, jesuites rock. They're real geniuses... here in Milan we had Carlo Maria Martini as archbishop, he's a jesuite and one of the most cultured man around.

I usually call him "Natzinger" or, here on NS, "His HolineSS" (too bad I can't render the "SS" with the right font). "Ratzinger Z" and "The Great Ratzinga" are big favourites here, too.

"Cattocomunista"!, one of my teachers at the university, who was a italian jesuit, called me that all the time, that is why I am familiar with the term. (No, I'm not a communist, but I'm mostly a liberal, and I am the over fighting type of girl that enters bitchmode at debating).

And yeah, I think one of the reasons why I am still a catholic is because of the jesuits. Without them, perhaps I would quitted the faith long time ago and go agnostic or atheist. Have you heard about the "Thelogy of Liberation"?

"Papanzer" :D

But I loved JPII, he was kinda sweet. I had the opportunityto meet him once, and had a beautiful smile, and a soft tone of voice. Ratzinger looks like a devil mastermind, or a wormtongue.

We here never call the Pope names because we don't know him much. We just hear his name every time we hear Mass...

Have you heard about the "Thelogy of Liberation"?
Yeah. A lot. I think it was one of the best expressions of catholicism EVER.


"Papanzer" :D

Wait till when he'll get Schumi to drive the Papamobile! :D


But I loved JPII, he was kinda sweet. I had the opportunityto meet him once, and had a beautiful smile, and a soft tone of voice.
Yes, I guess he was a great man as a person; but I didn't like his theological and political positions, they were somewhat backwards in respect with those of John XXIII and Paul VI.

Yeah. A lot. I think it was one of the best expressions of catholicism EVER.

Yep, yep, and it is the strongest posture amongst catholics here in South America.


Wait till when he'll get Schumi to drive the Papamobile! :D

Is that going to happen?

Yes, I guess he was a great man as a person; but I didn't like his theological and political positions, they were somewhat backwards in respect with those of John XXIII and Paul VI.

Yeah, I felt in the same way. I excused him saying that he was an old man, and that a traditional organization like the catholic church couldn't withstand too many changes too fast, but at least he did something to improve the image of the church, if at least for a bit. I was hoping for a fierce reformist after he died, not this anachronic mofo.