NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, the poll is for your opinion but I want some arguements. I have never gotten the other side of this topic, what makes someone actually believe Marijuana is a god forsaken drug that distroys lifes and kills people.

My stance:

Theres not point to it being illegal, the worse it can do is make people unproductive, but fuck alcohol is doing that already. I know it wont ever be legal (And I know other people probably have made something on this already) but I will fight for it until the day I die smoking. It was made illegal because of some political madman who wanted national recognition so he made it seem much worse...much, much, much worse then it really is. I can argue this all day but I want to see other peoples stances and just know what an anti-marijuana person thinks and why they think that way.

I completely agree.

I thought it was made illegal because the paper companies lobbied to have it so, because hemp makes better paper. It worked because it was during the prohibition era.

No source, that's just what I remember from somewhere, probably here. I'd wiki it if I wasn't so lazy.

EDIT: And why isn't this poll public?

No, but the paper companies' efforts did indeed aid the tax that effectively shut down the hemp industry and drove weed sales and production under ground. Congress at that time did not believe that it had the constitutional authority for an actual prohibition. The prohibition can largely be traced to a racist frenzy concerning Mexicans and blacks as threats to the purity of white women and Anglo culture.

No, the paper companies' efforts resulted in a tax that effectively shut down the hemp industry. The actual prohibition can be traced to a racist frenzy concerning Mexicans and blacks.

Well, I was close. I knew that part about the Mexican's too. Before the prohibition effort, wasn't it not known as Marijuana at all, it was just invented to create that connection between 'the dirty Mexicans' and pot?

I think a drug as relatively harmless as marijuana needs no control. Besides, the manufacturing abilities of hemp are just too efficient to keep it a banned product.

The sad part about that was that the declaration of Independance and the consitution were both written on Hemp paper, but still, hemp is not illegal entirly (I dont know about it being made as paper now as much as trees but I know hemp makes up alot of things). Either way, Marijuana itself was made illegal by a DEA (or the equivilant of that back then )agent who was running for the leadership of the agency and went after marijuana because of the mexican immigrants who came up and produced it in the states, came in illegally that is. He thought that by making it illegal and supporting that with the immigration problems he would be elected in, and so he lobbied for it and won (Short version but its what i've read)

There was also Dupont inventing nylon as a competitive product to hemp. Nowadays, it's mostly illegal because too many people make too much money from it being so. A lot of resistance to legalization can be traced to that.

well to be fair:

1) any drug used for non-medicinal purposes you take whether it be chocolate or marijuana is bad for you

2) marijuana is addictive in an emotional addiction sense

3) once you legalize a drug you can never ban it hence why we still have alcohol

all in all I think it should be legal but lets take it slowly, I don't want to discover that marijuana has some horrible undiscovered side affect when its too late to ban it

I think that marijuana is the devils perversion of Gods garden, and a foul poison that lucifer uses to corrupt the teens rebelling against Gods grace and tempt them into a lifetime of moral laxity and deprivation. I belive the civilised nations of Gods creation realised this and knew it to be their duty to stop this evil flowing in the blood of all humanity.

Wow! Wouldn't you know it.. religious condemnation, whether you believe in it or not, is addictive. like BIBLICAL HEROIN. My real stance is that I don't care, either way. it should totally be legalised for the individual to make the choice.

I don't really care if marijuana is legalized or not. I mean face it this world is pretty much screwed up and so is America. I doubt that legalizing marijuana would send us all to hell.

Its a fact. Marijuana is nothing like cocaine or heroin. So my position is that it cant do any more harm nor will anything better.

I think that marijuana is the devils perversion of Gods garden, and a foul poison that lucifer uses to corrupt the teens rebelling against Gods grace and tempt them into a lifetime of moral laxity and deprivation. I belive the civilised nations of Gods creation realised this and knew it to be their duty to stop this evil flowing in the blood of all humanity.

Wow! Wouldn't you know it.. religious condemnation, whether you believe in it or not, is addictive. like BIBLICAL HEROIN.

OK, Mr. Religious...wow..just wow...

actually i think cocaine and heroin should be legalized too.

OK, Mr. Religious...wow..just wow...

May one day you see the truth within my own post, though it remains hidden to you for now. :)

EDIT: Also, that's Miss.

May one day you see the truth within my own post, though it remains hidden to you for now. :)

No, I saw it when I quoted, but still I just ignored it for the others who didn't highlight you post lol.

actually i think cocaine and heroin should be legalized too.

And thats the problem, they believe that Marijuana leads to those kind of drugs. I've been smoking quite a long time and I have yet to jump on the cocain heroin bandwagon.

well to be fair:

1) any drug used for non-medicinal purposes you take whether it be chocolate or marijuana is bad for you

2) marijuana is addictive in an emotional addiction sense
I understand your apprehension, but let's not forget the notions of personal freedom and self-responsibility. I know you've probably taken this into account already, but I just wanted to emphasize those points.

all in all I think it should be legal but lets take it slowly, I don't want to discover that marijuana has some horrible undiscovered side affect when its too late to ban it

Marijuana, at the current time, has not been shown to have health risks even close to those of the drugs that are currently legal, such as tobacco products and alcohol. Both of the latter may, and often do, cause death, and can lead to many deadly illnesses. Marijuana, on the other hand, does neither. In fact, a study actually has shown that chemicals in marijuana may help fight cancer tumor growth.

Anyway, that's just a rough sketch of my two cents on the issue. I've got to run, so I'll expand upon this later.

well the thing is, cocaine specifically, is not a real threat to society, other than through the crime and disorder it causes because it is expensive yet addictive, increasing crime not only in the aspects of smuggling the drugs here but also by the means of fighting/stealing for it.

yet there's one reason why its expensive:

its illegal

cocaine is actually produced in massive quantities, moreso than american demand warrants (like about the same level as bananas.) Yet the supply is severely restricted by the "war on drugs" and such, so the price is sustained.

this in turn allows for large scale criminals, organized crime, and namely the cartel to profit off of its exchange in the United States.

However, if legal, the price of cocaine will plummet, crippling the stranglehold of the cartel in south america, in turn not only helping americans (who would still obtain the drug anyway) who now do not face a life of crime and can now help society, but also the nations of south america who can now prosper with an uncorrupted government.

*sprinkles magic economics dust*:gundge:

I think that cannabis, like any other drug should be treated by society as a health issue instead of a criminal problem.

If we knew 10,000 years ago what alcohol did, it would and should be illegal.

If we knew 500 years ago what tobacco did it would and should be illegal.

We can't make them illegal because they have become so much a part of the culture of the world. They will continue to kill people and be a drain on everyone in the world.

Why would we want to make another drain on the world? When I drive down the road at least one in ten have been drinking. When I drive down the road at least one in 20 are more interested in smoking than driving. Why would I want to drive down the road with a substantial number high? There are plenty of high drivers now, why would I want it to be culturally acceptable?

When I pay medical insurance, I'm paying for the mistakes of 10,000 and 500 years ago. When I pay tax to support people who have lost a parent, I am partially paying for the mistakes of 10,000 and 500 years ago. Why would I want to pay taxes for more losses?

I thought it was made illegal because the paper companies lobbied to have it so, because hemp makes better paper. It worked because it was during the prohibition era.

No source, that's just what I remember from somewhere, probably here. I'd wiki it if I wasn't so lazy.

EDIT: And why isn't this poll public?

The hemp used for twine and other fibrous products doesn't have the drug. The problem is it can't be distinguished by sight. If we had thousands of acres it would be impossible to regulate farmers from having an acre of the drug in the field.

Actually, growing up in Nebraska, we had thousands of acres of marijuana, the drug quality wasn't great, but you could harvest hundreds of pounds in a few minutes.

If we knew 10,000 years ago what alcohol did, it would and should be illegal.

Why?

If we knew 10,000 years ago what alcohol did, it would and should be illegal.

If we knew 500 years ago what tobacco did it would and should be illegal.

We can't make them illegal because they have become so much a part of the culture of the world. They will continue to kill people and be a drain on everyone in the world.

Why would we want to make another drain on the world? When I drive down the road at least one in ten have been drinking. When I drive down the road at least one in 20 are more interested in smoking than driving. Why would I want to drive down the road with a substantial number high? There are plenty of high drivers now, why would I want it to be culturally acceptable?

When I pay medical insurance, I'm paying for the mistakes of 10,000 and 500 years ago. When I pay tax to support people who have lost a parent, I am partially paying for the mistakes of 10,000 and 500 years ago. Why would I want to pay taxes for more losses?

woaw woaw woaw now. What are you Mormon or something. You should get high and chill out. Plus, if you have a good health record, medical insurance is cheaper for you.

If we knew 10,000 years ago what alcohol did, it would and should be illegal.

Really? A l'il bit of alcohol is both fun, relaxing, a joy to taste, sometimes enlightening, sometimes an inspiration and yes, when abused it can be a danger but then so can everything.

If we knew 500 years ago what tobacco did it would and should be illegal.

Agreed, but then smoking (cigarettes) is none of the above.

We can't make them illegal because they have become so much a part of the culture of the world.

It's difficult but not 'can't'.

I'm all for the legalization of marijuana, and indeed all drugs.

Especially psychedelic drugs. I mean, yes, they cause psychosis and other pychological issues in a small percentage of people, but they are physically safe and can be real amazing...even enlightening.

I think that marijuana is the devils perversion of Gods garden, and a foul poison that lucifer uses to corrupt the teens rebelling against Gods grace and tempt them into a lifetime of moral laxity and deprivation. I belive the civilised nations of Gods creation realised this and knew it to be their duty to stop this evil flowing in the blood of all humanity.

Wow! Wouldn't you know it.. religious condemnation, whether you believe in it or not, is addictive. like BIBLICAL HEROIN. My real stance is that I don't care, either way. it should totally be legalised for the individual to make the choice.

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. By reviewing your nation I came to the conclusion that you are a sarcastic libertarian, but I can't be sure. Whatever it was you meant to say, the way you said it smaked of Reefer Madness.

woaw woaw woaw now. What are you Mormon or something. You should get high and chill out. Plus, if you have a good health record, medical insurance is cheaper for you.

Not Mormon. Even have a drink now and then. But the cost in lives and economic loss is tremendous. That loss not only effects the user but those that pay for the loss of that life and economics.

Why would we want to add another layer of loss? Past mistakes should teach us to make better decisions as new threats to life and prosperity are found. Five hundred years from now, there shouldn't be someone saying "Look how stupid they were to make something like that legal, they should have seen the potential for loss of life, health and economics." Just as we say the same thing about tobacco.

Not Mormon. Even have a drink now and then. But the cost in lives and economic loss is tremendous. That loss not only effects the user but those that pay for the loss of that life and economics.

Why should I be shackled for another man's weakness?

It's difficult but not 'can't'.

We tried to change the culture of alcohol use with disastrous results. We are attempting to change the culture of tobacco use. The results are encouraging in the advanced societies, but use is increasing in most of the world. The odds of the removal of either is atomically small. Nothing is impossible.

It's much easier to never make something a part of the accepted culture than to remove it after.

Why should I be shackled for another man's weakness?

Why should I pay taxes for the results? Why should I have to work harder to make up for the economic loss of the results?

We tried to change the culture of alcohol use with disastrous results. We are attempting to change the culture of tobacco use. The results are encouraging in the advanced societies, but use is increasing in most of the world. The odds of the removal of either is atomically small. Nothing is impossible.

It's much easier to never make something a part of the accepted culture than to remove it after.

The movement against smoking is, as you say, encouraging in developed countries but then I can see NO advantage to cigarettes AT ALL. If nothing else, being as addictive as it is, it takes away the freedom to live a healthy life to a certain degree.

Yet alcohol can be both enjoyed as well as beneficial if taken in moderation. I accept that some people go overboard but people can go overboard on anything. We can justify alcohol, hence, why should I be shackled for another's weakness?

I'd argue the same for marijuana.

Why should I pay taxes for the results? Why should I have to work harder to make up for the economic loss of the results?

No man is an island, if you want to run life as you see fit, work even harder, buy an island, set up your government and then ban alcohol.

We tried to change the culture of alcohol use with disastrous results. We are attempting to change the culture of tobacco use. The results are encouraging in the advanced societies, but use is increasing in most of the world. The odds of the removal of either is atomically small. Nothing is impossible.

It's much easier to never make something a part of the accepted culture than to remove it after.Your examples show that public awareness campaigns and limitations placed on the capitalists who seek to profit from addictive substances (as with the anti-tobacco campaigns) can do some good while all-out prohibition (as with alcohol) does nothing but exacerbate the problem.

Pot is already a 'part of the accepted culture.' It's prohibition is helping nothing. Pot is not nearly as harmful as either alcohol or tobacco. It does not even warrant the sorts of measures that are being taken regarding tobacco. The arguments in favor of banning alcohol and tobacco (feeble as they are in the first place) completely fall apart when applied to pot.

Why should I pay taxes for the results? Why should I have to work harder to make up for the economic loss of the results?Why do I have to pay taxes to support a failing imperialist oil war? Because the IRS has the US Army backing it up and the US Army has more tanks then we do.:p

The movement against smoking is, as you say, encouraging in developed countries but then I can see NO advantage to cigarettes AT ALL. If nothing else, being as addictive as it is, it takes away the freedom to live a healthy life to a certain degree.

Yet alcohol can be both enjoyed as well as be beneficial if taken in moderation. I accept that some people go overboard but people can go overboard on anything. We can justify alcohol, hence, why should I be shackled for another's weakness?

I'd argue the same for marijuana.

Cigarettes give you a buzz, especially when you get started. I used to moderately smoke. Never became addicted. Alcohol gives you a buzz. Still have a drink from time to time. Would be glad to live without both if it saved the lives and losses had they never become a part of the culture. Marijuana gives a buzz. Some live with moderation some don't. But it would be totally illogical to add another layer to the loss of life and prosperity. For what logical reason would we want to say, "We accept this new Buzz, so you may use it openly even if that means you will be on the road with me while Buzzed." ?? The acceptance of two mistakes doesn't logically justify the acceptance of a third.

Why do I have to pay taxes to support a failing imperialist oil war? Because the IRS has the US Army backing it up and the US Army has more tanks then we do.:p

I have not a clue as to why I should pay taxes for the stupidity of our leader when he lied to take our army into Iraq. But one mistake doesn't justify another. We pay taxes for a lot of mistakes. Why should we volunteer to pay for another?

I have to disagree with those who argue about the increased costs involved with the legalizing of substances such as marijuana. Getting saddled with extra costs is no justification to limit personal freedom. While healthy, responsible citizens may have to partially foot the bill for those who choose to live their lives dangerously or deliberately allow themselves harm, these latter individuals nevertheless still have the natural right, as it has been established by the principles of democracy, to live as they please. Who are we, as a society, to dictate what citizens can and cannot do with their bodies? I'd say the restricting of this right, a fundamental one indeed, is a far more grievous blight on our nation than the costs that come with allowing citizens such freedom. In my opinion, liberty is more important than some extra cash in my wallet.

Let's also not forget that marijuana does not compare to legal substances when it comes to the issue of health-related costs. Major scientific studies have failed to show higher rates of lung cancer in people who smoke marijuana; the largest study ever conducted on this subject concluded that there was no link between the disease and the drug (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729_pf.html). Quite contrarily, marijuana may prevent tumor growth. (http://www.webmd.com/content/article/122/114805.htm) Further, marijuana has been shown not to cause COPD (http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/gca?SEARCHID=1127855512481_8334&AUTHOR1=Tashkin%252C%2BD&FULLTEXT=Marijuana&JOURNALCODE=&FIRSTINDEX=0&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&gca=155%2F1%2F141&sendit=Get+All+Checked+Abstract%28s%29), or emphysema, for that matter, due to the way that it is inhaled. Finally, unlike alcohol, there is no such thing as "marijuana poisoning." So, I ask those who worry about its health effects -- how can the legalization of tobacco and alcohol be justified, but marijuana, a relatively soft drug in comparison to the aforementioned two, be banned?

I think that marijuana is the devils perversion of Gods garden, and a foul poison that lucifer uses to corrupt the teens rebelling against Gods grace and tempt them into a lifetime of moral laxity and deprivation. I belive the civilised nations of Gods creation realised this and knew it to be their duty to stop this evil flowing in the blood of all humanity.

Wow! Wouldn't you know it.. religious condemnation, whether you believe in it or not, is addictive. like BIBLICAL HEROIN. My real stance is that I don't care, either way. it should totally be legalised for the individual to make the choice.

http://www.offyatree.com.au/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/CardDevilsHarvest.jpg.w300h420.jpg
ummm...interesting...

Cigarettes give you a buzz, especially when you get started. I used to moderately smoke. Never became addicted. Alcohol gives you a buzz. Still have a drink from time to time. Would be glad to live without both if it saved the lives and losses had they never become a part of the culture. Marijuana gives a buzz. Some live with moderation some don't. But it would be totally illogical to add another layer to the loss of life and prosperity. For what logical reason would we want to say, "We accept this new Buzz, so you may use it openly even if that means you will be on the road with me while Buzzed." ?? The acceptance of two mistakes doesn't logically justify the acceptance of a third.

On some level I see your point and I suppose I can't state what is the difference between the cigarette/marijuana/alcohol buzz in strict scientific terms - I suppose all alter your brain waves to some extent, or release endorphins or whatever.

Yet the buzz of nicotine is not beneficial in any way, nor is it in anyway enjoyable and it disappears due to the regularity of smoking.

The only reason to smoke cigarettes is to fulfil the body's craving for nicotine - there's plenty of reasons for having a joint or a drink, especially among friends.

EDIT: For the sake of being safe, no joints as they are overtly harmful to the lungs, a nice cookie then.

I have to disagree with you here.

You then go on to completely agree with me :confused:

You then go on to completely agree with me :confused:

My bad. I misread your post; I mistook you for Good Lifes. I'll change my OP.

. We pay taxes for a lot of mistakes. Why should we volunteer to pay for another?

Like the completely ineffective, tyrannical and ungodly expensive 'war on drugs?'

Pot is already a 'part of the accepted culture.' It's prohibition is helping nothing. Pot is not nearly as harmful as either alcohol or tobacco. It does not even warrant the sorts of measures that are being taken regarding tobacco. The arguments in favor of banning alcohol and tobacco (feeble as they are in the first place) completely fall apart when applied to pot.

If pot was a part of the accepted culture we would not be having this discussion.

I grew up in the '60s when pot was a drug of choice. I know how it inhibits the ability to function in a technical society. I don't want a pothead on the road with me. I don't want a pothead operating equipment that has any possibility of coming in contact with other humans. I don't want to have to deal with a pothead when I buy a burger or anything else. Regardless of any arguments you may think are true, a person who is high doesn't function anymore than a person is drunk. That loss of function is both dangerous and a hassle for anyone that has contact.

The medical "safety" of marijuana is about at the same level as tobacco. The lungs (and the rest of the body for that matter) are not designed for smoke of any kind.

If pot was a part of the accepted culture we would not be having this discussion.If it wasn't, more then 10% of the poll would support prohibition. If it wasn't, we'd not be seeing a massive move towards decriminalization. If it wasn't, then so many people would be not be smoking it. Hell, it's probably more socially accepted in my town then Christ worship is by everyone but the pigs.

The medical "safety" of marijuana is about at the same level as tobacco. The lungs (and the rest of the body for that matter)
Not according to doctors, scientists and medical studies. But then you know better.
That loss of function is both dangerous and a hassle for anyone that has contact.

I don't think that its a good idea to operate heavy machinery on pot. Not a good idea to do it while you're having oral sex either. We should ban oral sex. It also depends on the pothead. There are some heads who I've never seen sober, and yet they are probably at least as effective in their professional and academic lives as you are.
But I really would like to see the statistics that show that pot is responsible for all of these traffic accidents and such anyway.

snipsie daisy

that's a pretty bad drawing of the devil. I mean is that supposed to be a lesser demon or something? Maybe LUCIFERS ERRAND BOY or somesuch. Lets put it simply, as gaunt as that beast is, I find it impossible to fear for my soul in its presence, because it probably couldn't even overpower me. However, with its GIANT BUG EYES, I would say it has indeed been consuming some chemical harvest. Fricking lame supervillain, the devil, anyway. No laser eyes, robotic appendages, pumpkin bombs.... It just tempts you to have fun. That's not exactly EVIL ON AN EPIC SCOPE.

I don't want to have to deal with a pothead when I buy a burger I don't want to deal with you either. Maybe you should stay home:p

The medical "safety" of marijuana is about at the same level as tobacco.

That's just flat-out untrue, and unsupported by even the most twisted form of anti-drug government propaganda. Please see my post above.

If pot was a part of the accepted culture we would not be having this discussion.

I grew up in the '60s when pot was a drug of choice. I know how it inhibits the ability to function in a technical society. I don't want a pothead on the road with me. I don't want a pothead operating equipment that has any possibility of coming in contact with other humans. I don't want to have to deal with a pothead when I buy a burger or anything else. Regardless of any arguments you may think are true, a person who is high doesn't function anymore than a person is drunk. That loss of function is both dangerous and a hassle for anyone that has contact.

The medical "safety" of marijuana is about at the same level as tobacco. The lungs (and the rest of the body for that matter) are not designed for smoke of any kind.


Okay, but being high and driving or performing other taks during which other people are at risk will be illegal, most likely, as they are with alcohol. Anyone who is likely to do that in the first place is likely to do it whether pot is legal or illegal.

As to the safety, nicotine contains many more known carcinogens than Marijuana, IIRC, I'll try and find some links in addition to those posted above.

EDIT: Actually, I found that tobacco smoke and marijuana smoke are about the same aside from psychoactive ingredients, but I also found that THC may help prevent cancer and that there is no link between smoking cannabis and lung cancer. I guess I will concede the point. However, what you really have to look at is the amount smoked. Most people who smoke cigarettes smoke about a pack a day ormore, whereas marijuana users might smoke a couple joints in a day.

Further, there are plenty of ways to ingest THC which reduce or eliminate the risks associated with smoking, including vaporisors, eating, and making and using hashish or hash oil [which (I think) is not technically hashish at all].


EDIT 2: Here (http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_info3.shtml) is a link to a comparison of marijuana and tobacco smoke.

If it wasn't, more then 10% of the poll would support prohibition. If it wasn't, we'd not we seeing a massive move towards decriminalization.

Not according to doctors, scientists and medical studies. But then you know better.

I don't think that its a good idea to operate heavy machinery on pot. Not a good idea to do it while you're having oral sex either. We should ban oral sex.
But I really would like to see the statistics that show that pot is responsible for all of these traffic accidents and such anyway.

This is a poll basically of teenie boppers that only think at the "me" level. Take the poll of those that have been around the corner a few times.

Where is this movement to legalization? I hear the news several times each day and only hear about trouble keeping medical uses legal. Haven't heard one story on total legalization.

Are you telling me that when something becomes socially acceptable it won't be used in public? The safety factor of pot is that it is illegal. That forces most users to restrict public use. Make it legal and it will be used in the same ways as alcohol. About 10 percent of drivers have been drinking. Do you want another 10 percent high? Don't know how many drivers are getting a blow job. I've driven after drinking, never driven while getting a blow job, but know a few who claim to.

Where is this movement to legalization? I hear the news several times each day and only hear about trouble keeping medical uses legal. Haven't heard one story on total legalization.

http://www.norml.org/

http://www.norml.org/

Oh Yea, NORML is a totally unbiased source.

Oh Yea, NORML is a totally unbiased source.

You asked where the legalization movement was, I linked you to the legalization movement. It's not a source, it's what you were asking for.

This is a poll basically of teenie boppers that only think at the "me" level. Take the poll of those that have been around the corner a few times.

Where is this movement to legalization? I hear the news several times each day and only hear about trouble keeping medical uses legal. Haven't heard one story on total legalization.

Are you telling me that when something becomes socially acceptable it won't be used in public? The safety factor of pot is that it is illegal. That forces most users to restrict public use. Make it legal and it will be used in the same ways as alcohol. About 10 percent of drivers have been drinking. Do you want another 10 percent high? Don't know how many drivers are getting a blow job. I've driven after drinking, never driven while getting a blow job, but know a few who claim to.

You seem to be very concerned about the prospect of drivers being high on marijuana if the substance is legalized. To throw my two cents in, driving while high is far less dangerous than driving while drunk. While the senses are impaired to an extent, one is in much greater control of one's actions while driving high than while driving drunk. I have known many people who have driven high, and can tell you that they have never encountered a problem due to impairment while driving. Does this justify marijuana-impaired driving? No. But it does point out that the percentage of high drivers on the road are a lot less dangerous than their fellow drivers who are drunk.

You asked where the legalization movement was, I linked you to the legalization movement. It's not a source, it's what you were asking for.

NORML hasn't accomplished anything in 40 years. I wouldn't hold my breath.

There was also Dupont inventing nylon as a competitive product to hemp. Nowadays, it's mostly illegal because too many people make too much money from it being so. A lot of resistance to legalization can be traced to that

Very true. Lawyers and law enforcement officials have a vested interest in keeping marijuana illegal...not to mention the alcohol and tobacco industries.

I know how it inhibits the ability to function in a technical society.

You'd be surprised...

I don't want a pothead on the road with me.

Too late...they're already all over the place.

I don't want a pothead operating equipment that has any possibility of coming in contact with other humans.

Again...too late.

I don't want to have to deal with a pothead when I buy a burger or anything else.

Wow...again, already all over the place, and far too late for you or anyone else to do anything about it.

Regardless of any arguments you may think are true, a person who is high doesn't function anymore than a person is drunk.

Bullshit.

That loss of function is both dangerous and a hassle for anyone that has contact.

If you left the house for any reason today, I'd bet you came into contact with at least a half-dozen people who were high at that time...and you probably didn't even notice.

...you say you grew up in the 60's. It sounds like that's where most of your arguments grew up too.

God damnit, I accidentally voted it should be illegal because your poll is worded so stupidly.

This is a poll basically of teenie boppers that only think at the "me" level. The ad hominem route will get you nowhere, my son. Lashing out at those who disagree with you isn't a very effective way of proving your point. It is a good way of shutting yourself off to other people's reasonable arguments though.

Where is this movement to legalization? I said decriminalization. Take a look at Holland. Take a look at Canada. Take a look at England. Take a look at the direction in which many US states' possession laws have been going in recent years. As some pompous ass once said: it doesn't take a weatherman to tell you which way the wind is blowing. Even American politicians can only be so stupid for so long.
Are you telling me that when something becomes socially acceptable it won't be used in public? It's constantly used in public. There's a guy smoking some in front of the house next to me right now. No one seems to mind and he most certainly isn't bothering me. It is socially acceptable. It is also illegal. The state is not society.



...
Do you want another 10 percent high? That claim has no actual substance behind it. I'm still waiting on those statistics. What percentage of drivers drive high now? What is their accident rate when compared to drunk driving? How much of the stoned sample is also drunk? How many stoned drivers who get into accidents are also drunk at the time?

NORML hasn't accomplished anything in 40 years. I wouldn't hold my breath.

In Santa Cruz (http://www.ci.santa-cruz.ca.us/council/MK/mk.html) and San (http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/462/san_francisco_passes_lowest_priority_marijuana_initiative) Francisco (http://www.sfgov.org/site/bdsupvrs_page.asp?id=57982) (and these are just the ones I know about because I've lived in each city) ordanances were passed that made marijuana a low enforcement priority-police don't ticket small amounts and prosecutors won't prosecute anything but egregious amounts.

Where's the goal post going to be now?

Seriously... I grew up with a family that smoked it, though they've always been against me starting, obviously - and I am, personally. But despite the fact I dislike the stuff for myself, I can't deny that I barely noticed a difference between them high or not like I could when they were drunk or sober. In fact, they were a hell of a lot less predictable and a lot more erratic when drunk. I've seen one of my parents worse than that too, one time, and it sure as hell wasn't marijuana. Personal practical experience has shown me that to others, that stuff is harmless, especially compared to alcohol. Not to mention I grew up in a school where I have no hesitation in saying I was in the vast minority of my year who decided not to actually try it. I didn't like most people in my year, but they certainly had no trouble getting excellent grades despite being high a LOT. (the problem I had was the peer pressure which is a totally different issue.)

There's no defensible argument in my opinion to its illegality when there are far more dangerous (to yourself and others) and less useful (think of all the trees worth of paper you can make out of that field, and it doesn't take centuries to regrow) drugs out there which remain perfectly acceptable.

If you left the house for any reason today, I'd bet you came into contact with at least a half-dozen people who were high at that time...and you probably didn't even notice.


Unfortunately, I spot high people all of the time. (tweekers also) Unfortunately, I have to fire them when they slip by. That costs me money and in the long run, my customers money, and me money when I have to buy from others that have had the misfortune to have one slip by also. The output of high people is dismal. And it totally flabbergasts them when they get fired. They are totally convinced (as you are) that they actually function in society.

Unfortunately, I spot high people all of the time. (tweekers also) Unfortunately, I have to fire them when they slip by. That costs me money and in the long run, my customers money, and me money when I have to buy from others that have had the misfortune to have one slip by also. The output of high people is dismal. And it totally flabbergasts them when they get fired. They are totally convinced (as you are) that they actually function in society.

You have every right to (fire them) as you would if they were drunk.

Has little bearing on the legalization.

To the point about 'growing up in the 60's', which is a tired phrase, the use of pot was really isolated to the the few, the vast majority of the USA/Britain or anywhere (aside from countries that routinely smoke such as parts of India) had never seen, let alone tried, pot.

Nowadays, you'd be hard-pressed, in Britain at least, to find any kid under 30, regardless whether rural or urban, who had not tried - I'll add statistics soon (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/drugs0500.pdf).

Conservative rural America may mean less %, but vastly more people smoke pot now than they did in the 60's.

CAVEAT: I grew up in the late 70's/early 80's (0-10yrs old) but my parents were well in with the 60's crowd, many of whom are still friends and some of whom continue to smoke pot now.

Unfortunately, I spot high people all of the time. (tweekers also) Unfortunately, I have to fire them when they slip by. That costs me money and in the long run, my customers money, and me money when I have to buy from others that have had the misfortune to have one slip by also. The output of high people is dismal. And it totally flabbergasts them when they get fired. They are totally convinced (as you are) that they actually function in society.

Once again, I don't think anyone is arguing that cannabis use should be allowed unchecked in the workplace. That is ridiculous. However, I do think that I can do some jobs involving menial, repetitive tasks wth little or no mental involvment equally well stoned or sober.

Once again, I don't think anyone is arguing that cannabis use should be allowed unchecked in the workplace. That is ridiculous. However, I do think that I can do some jobs involving menial, repetitive tasks wth little or no mental involvment equally well stoned or sober.

I run a vegetable farm. Not exactly rocket science to pick asparagus.

I run a vegetable farm. Not exactly rocket science to pick asparagus.

And your employees are adversely affected by smoking? Okay. Sounds like something I think I could do as well high as I could sober (in fact, sounds like something I'd do better really, really blazed, as I tend to work faster [physically, not mentally] while really stoned), but I'm willing to accept that some people would be worse at it high. Even if it didn't, however, I can understand your concern over people being high on the job and you are well within your rights to fire any employee for being high.

Once again, my point is that people shouldn't work while high. I'm not saying I would or should do it high, just that I think I could, if necessary.

Unfortunately, I spot high people all of the time.

I'd be willing to bet that for every one you "spot", you miss another three.

Unfortunately, I have to fire them when they slip by.

"Have to"?

That costs me money and in the long run, my customers money, and me money when I have to buy from others that have had the misfortune to have one slip by also.

Hell...that's as good of an argument for decriminalization as any. If it's costing so much money to deal with employee turnover due to marijuana use, maybe it's not worth the effort.

The output of high people is dismal.

Says you...your own experiences are hardly representative of marijuana users as a whole.

And it totally flabbergasts them when they get fired. They are totally convinced (as you are) that they actually function in society.

Some potheads are lazy fuckers.

Most function just fine...some even work harder and better than non-users.

I am convinced that marijuana users function in society because I know numerous smokers...and none of them has ever been fired from a job for poor performance.

Most marijuana users take their jobs very seriously, simply because it can be so difficult to locate a decent job that doesn't have restrictive drug policies that prevent them from attaining or retaining a position.

These people fail to understand why their own work is devalued to such a degree simply because of what they choose to do with their own lives while not on the job.


Again...I think you may want to update your arguments.

(the problem I had was the peer pressure which is a totally different issue.)


Always submit to peer pressure. Even Homer Simpson knew this. :D He also did pot in one episode. Answer to the question: No, it shouldn't be legalized.

Yeah, it's not like if marijauna were legalized, there wouldn't be the same sort of constraints on mind-altering drugs in existence now.

We'd have 'high-driving' laws to go hand in hand with our drunk driving ones, and employers would still be sovreign in choosing their employees.

I do think we would see an initial surge in users and amount of usage in the first year or two. But the novelty would wear off, and it would go back to how it is now, only minus the petty drug busts.

Oh, and if they did legalize, what age? America has such horrible age limits as it is....

I hope they'd be wise enough to make it 18 like smoking and not opt for 21. Because then we'd just have the same sorts of problems we do know with "underage drinking"

I think the sale and marketing of the processed stuff should stay illegal, and it should be as much of an offense to do things while stoned as while drunk, but I don't see much fault with growing a certain amount of your own and with prescription use.

*Raises hand* I think pot can destroy lives.

I've known someone who has wasted their entire life being on the bottom of the barrel, never really suceeding in anything in life... Because he was too apathic from smoking pot.

I've watched a close relative, go from an aspiring student, to a lazy bum, from too much pot, because "It's all cool" why bother trying, (Of course now he's a lazy insane psychopathic bum but that's the Cocaine and meth)

Actually, at least here in Italy, there are very few deaths linked to excess of consumption of marijuana, while there is an large death count for excess of consumption:
1.Alcohol (including drunk driving, cyrrhosis and liver cancer)
2.Tobacco (mostly lung cancer)
3.Synthetic drugs like exstasy and crack (including driving on drugs)
4.Heroine (including HIV infection via promiscuous use of syringues)
5.Cocaine (including driving on drugs)

Since a joint of strong marijuana has about the same psychotropical effect of two glasses of grappa (45% vol), and the State holds the monopoly on two light drugs (alcohol and tobacco), I don't see why another light drug, like marijuana, should be banned.

*Raises hand* I think pot can destroy lives.

I've known someone who has wasted their entire life being on the bottom of the barrel, never really suceeding in anything in life... Because he was too apathic from smoking pot.

I've watched a close relative, go from an aspiring student, to a lazy bum, from too much pot, because "It's all cool" why bother trying, (Of course now he's a lazy insane psychopathic bum but that's the Cocaine and meth)

A good point. I too have a friend who has largely wasted his brain on pot. He's still a good friend, but I feel sad about how much less he is now than he used to be.

There is no doubt that excessive use of hemp is harmful. And personally, I don't doubt that there are medical risks involved, even if we aren't 100% certain about all of them.

Likewise, the "harder" drugs clearly have psychological and physical side effects ranging from mild paranoia and increased blood pressure to (in some cases) instant death.

HOWEVER.

The military, economic, personal and social costs of the war on drugs make the worst effects of the drugs themselves look like small change. We jail people for tiny amounts, strip them of half their civil rights, and then wonder why they embark on lives of crime. Others turn to petty crime to feed habits they can't afford - but the only reason the drug they crave is so expensive is the illegality of it.
For organized crime, things haven't been better since the Prohibition days. They siphon off million of dollars a day from the legitimate economy, and a lot of that money winds up in the hands of terrorists and rogue states that hate our guts. And our big-foot policies make us enemies in the countries that should be helping us with the problem.

Legalization is the lesser of two evils. But decidedly the lesser.

*Raises hand* I think pot can destroy lives.

I've known someone who has wasted their entire life being on the bottom of the barrel, never really suceeding in anything in life... Because he was too apathic from smoking pot.

I've watched a close relative, go from an aspiring student, to a lazy bum, from too much pot, because "It's all cool" why bother trying, (Of course now he's a lazy insane psychopathic bum but that's the Cocaine and meth)
I think that's just as much an argument for legalisation as much as it is against. Clearly, prohibition isn't working if people still have accesses to cannabis. Before I turned 18, it was easier for me to get cannabis than alcohol, if I wanted to, and occasionally did, despite billions of pounds and man hours being pumped into cutting supply - money that could be better spent on the things that really do matter and might do what they are intended to - rehabilitation and 'real' crime. I don't see the point of fighting a losing and pointless battle when money, time and effort can be put to more productive use.

Legalising cannabis (and other drugs) won't be a panacea for all our social ills, but it would go a log way into breaking the power of gangs, terrorists and other types that currently profit from the drug industry, and have huge amounts of power on our streets, and from a statist point of view, provide a source of revenue for effective rehab programmes instead of pointless punishments.

People can go too far on anything, cannabis included - but that's not a reason for its illegality, which makes treatment and control only more difficult.

well to be fair:

1) any drug used for non-medicinal purposes you take whether it be chocolate or marijuana is bad for you

2) marijuana is addictive in an emotional addiction sense

3) once you legalize a drug you can never ban it hence why we still have alcohol

all in all I think it should be legal but lets take it slowly, I don't want to discover that marijuana has some horrible undiscovered side affect when its too late to ban it

Heh any substance if used over much is bad for you. Very much including medical drugs, and medical drug can be used soley for it's side effects.

If we define a drug as a subtance that when put into our bodies elicits a change, then everything is a drug including chocolate, which can also be said to be emotionaly adictive.

Why make any substance that we choose to use, or misuse illeagal? What guidelines makes alchol legeal while MJ illegeal?

Heh any substance if used over much is bad for you. Very much including medical drugs, and medical drug can be used soley for it's side effects.

If we define a drug as a subtance that when put into our bodies elicits a change, then everything is a drug including chocolate, which can also be said to be emotionaly adictive.

Why make any substance that we choose to use, or misuse illeagal? What guidelines makes alchol legeal while MJ illegeal?

Vitamins have pretty serious side affects when you take too much. Why aren't we banning vitamin tablets?

Vitamins have pretty serious side affects when you take too much. Why aren't we banning vitamin tablets?

Excessive vitamin C can cause abortions...

Yes, it should be legal. There is no practical reason for banning it.

Unfortunately, I spot high people all of the time. (tweekers also) Unfortunately, I have to fire them when they slip by. That costs me money and in the long run, my customers money, and me money when I have to buy from others that have had the misfortune to have one slip by also. The output of high people is dismal. And it totally flabbergasts them when they get fired. They are totally convinced (as you are) that they actually function in society.

its their responsibility to use the drug, well, responsibly. same goes with people who drink beer or wine... show up to work drunk and you can expect to be fired. no big surprise there.


my personal thinking on the issue, as a heavy pot smoker for over 2 years, is that its a drug much like alcohol. it can be used recreationally and responsibly. the fact that many don't isn't particularly the drug's fault, but that of the cultrue around weed. and part of that is a criminal culture.

i think it should be legalised but regulated just the same way alcohol is (only licenced shops can sell, age restrictions, etc)

I would actually rather see marijuana legal than tobacco. At least the lung cancer rates would probably go down...

*Raises hand* I think pot can destroy lives.

I've known someone who has wasted their entire life being on the bottom of the barrel, never really suceeding in anything in life... Because he was too apathic from smoking pot.

I've watched a close relative, go from an aspiring student, to a lazy bum, from too much pot, because "It's all cool" why bother trying, (Of course now he's a lazy insane psychopathic bum but that's the Cocaine and meth)

So if I know people who have lived creative productive lives (like, say, Carl Sagan) who also smoke pot then I can say everyone should do it? Or is anecdotal evidence about "some guy I know" not really a way to assess a drug and society?

I'm going to go with the latter...

I would actually rather see marijuana legal than tobacco. At least the lung cancer rates would probably go down...
Could be more right than you realise:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6474053.stm

When my sister got pregnant one of the papers that she was reading said not to do drugs. It listed the drugs, and marijuana wasn't on there. I thought it was funny... and mj should be legalized considering that so many people do it anyways.

I think that's just as much an argument for legalisation as much as it is against. Clearly, prohibition isn't working if people still have accesses to cannabis.
Apparently since making murder illegal doesn't stop murder, we should get rid of it.

Legalising cannabis (and other drugs) won't be a panacea for all our social ills, but it would go a log way into breaking the power of gangs, terrorists and other types that currently profit from the drug industry, and have huge amounts of power on our streets, and from a statist point of view, provide a source of revenue for effective rehab programmes instead of pointless punishments. Uh do you think suddenly a million legit companies will just pop up for the sole purpose of selling pot? The first 'businesses' will be the gangs, execpt now they'll be a legal company.


People can go too far on anything, cannabis included - but that's not a reason for its illegality, which makes treatment and control only more difficult. Case one isn't a 'too far' he's not a heavy user, but year after year takes it's toll.

So if I know people who have lived creative productive lives (like, say, Carl Sagan) who also smoke pot then I can say everyone should do it? Or is anecdotal evidence about "some guy I know" not really a way to assess a drug and society?
I'm going to go with the latter... Whatever, accuse me of making stuff up. Nice job attacking me instead of trying to come up with a good excuse.

Sure it helps you 'create' but that's only in some people. Majority it makes them apathatic and lazy, and there are enough apathatic and lazy people in this country.

PS: No where have I said about Marijuana being illegal, I'd rather have cigarrates banned more than pot.

Excessive vitamin C can cause abortions...

Don't tell the pro-lifers, they'll be bombing orange groves next! :eek:

Apparently since making murder illegal doesn't stop murder, we should get rid of it.

No one commits murder just because it's illegal. You have to be a violent depraved or otherwise disturbed individual in order to bring yourself to homicide.

However, plenty of people - kids especially - do smoke pot because it's illegal and thus taboo - knowing that it doesn't make them violent, depraved, disturbed.

Thus the comparison isn't apt - not least because you're comparing smoking a plant substance with KILLING PEOPLE.

Uh do you think suddenly a million legit companies will just pop up for the sole purpose of selling pot?

A million? Nah. However, there are indeed 25 million business in the US, and no doubt some of them will take advantage of legalized pot.

The first 'businesses' will be the gangs, execpt now they'll be a legal company.

You have an amusing concept of what it takes to form a legal company, let alone a successful one. Yeah, maybe a gang will form a company. Or maybe, you know, gangs are more concerned with turf wars and selling heroin and prostitution than pot. And maybe a real business will be more successful at... real business... than your hypothetical gang-turned-legit-company.

PS: No where have I said about Marijuana being illegal, I'd rather have cigarrates banned more than pot.

I believe in liberty.

I think the sale and marketing of the processed stuff should stay illegal, and it should be as much of an offense to do things while stoned as while drunk, but I don't see much fault with growing a certain amount of your own and with prescription use.

Just a quick question--by "the processed stuff" do you mean marijuana that has been processed for consumption (dried and cured, etc.), or the manufacture of hashish or hash oil (which, while more potent, are also less harmful), or something else entirely?

Also, what about selling to people with a perscription? I mean, not everyone has the time, money, or energy to set up a grow. It can be quite expensive to get a good setup (and therefore high quality marijuana).

Just a quick question--by "the processed stuff" do you mean marijuana that has been processed for consumption (dried and cured, etc.), or the manufacture of hashish or hash oil (which, while more potent, are also less harmful), or something else entirely?

Also, what about selling to people with a perscription? I mean, not everyone has the time, money, or energy to set up a grow. It can be quite expensive to get a good setup (and therefore high quality marijuana).

I have always thought it a good idea, and perhaps a steping stone to makeing it leagel to make it illegal to see it, but leagel to grow it.

Uh do you think suddenly a million legit companies will just pop up for the sole purpose of selling pot? The first 'businesses' will be the gangs, execpt now they'll be a legal company.
Yeah...like all those gangsters running the cannibus clubs in California...oh wait-this isn't a cartoon and people aren't actually getting much of their weed from gangs. In over ten years of smoking and being around smokers I've never met a gangster or bought from one and have pretty much always known who grew the plants.

This piece of hysteria has already proved untrue.

Whatever, accuse me of making stuff up. Nice job attacking me instead of trying to come up with a good excuse.

Sure it helps you 'create' but that's only in some people. Majority it makes them apathatic and lazy, and there are enough apathatic and lazy people in this country.

PS: No where have I said about Marijuana being illegal, I'd rather have cigarrates banned more than pot.
I didn't accuse you of making things up, nor did I attack you. I attacked your arguement, learn the difference.

You provided anecdotal evidence. You 'know a guy' whose life has been ruined. This is hardly a scientific study-even knowing two guys does not establish a trend. You cannot establish a 'majority' by the two guys you know, especially when one of your examples is also on meth. I can tell you all about the several people I know who are productive members of society who are also pot smokers, but the 'guys I know' are not an argument.

Apparently since making murder illegal doesn't stop murder, we should get rid of it.
Except that the negative consequences of using marijuana are no where near the negative consequences of people murdering one another. In fact, the negative consequences of pot are no where near those of alcohol or tobacco. As I've already posted in this thread, the worst marijuana has been proven to do to a person is make them lazy and unable to focus. I'd say that lazyness and ADD are somewhat less of a threat to our society than murder.

Uh do you think suddenly a million legit companies will just pop up for the sole purpose of selling pot? The first 'businesses' will be the gangs, execpt now they'll be a legal company.
Legitimate companies already sell tobacco and alcohol products. Why not marijuana? From a business standpoint, selling marijuana is a potential wellspring of profit. In fact, in California, dealers are already selling pot in a very business-like manner (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13390669/the_great_california_weed_rush)(under the guise of it being for medicinal purposes, of course). Do you honestly believe that gangs have the business credibility, the resources, and the PR to become the major suppliers of marijuana if it is legalized? Come now, big corporations would never stand for that.

Sure it helps you 'create' but that's only in some people. Majority it makes them apathatic and lazy, and there are enough apathatic and lazy people in this country.
Hasty generalization. Also, even if you had the statistics to back up your little statement, I'd like to point out that the possible societal damage from people being lazy and apathetic does not outweigh the interest of allowing personal freedom (a.k.a. "liberty").

PS: No where have I said about Marijuana being illegal, I'd rather have cigarrates banned more than pot.
I'd rather have it so that people are allowed to make their choices about what they wish to do with their own bodies. Wow...now I'm sounding like I'm defending abortion rights here. That makes me wonder: is it possible to be pro-choice and yet anti-legalization? Aren't the arguments for access to abortion and the legalization of marijuana essentially the same? Just a thought.

As I've already posted in this thread, the worst marijuana has been proven to do to a person is make them lazy and unable to focus. I'd say that lazyness and ADD are somewhat less of a threat to our society than murder.

Not quite true, MJ, can bring on mental health issue for those with a genetic predispostion, and will most likey bring on the same for those who start smokeing before the age of 21 or so(basicaly before the brain has stopped maturing), or long term smokers(20-30 years).

Then having said that, we know that smoking tabocco kills the majority of people who do it, and tabbaco and alchol related deaths are many, so I can see absolutly no reason for MJ being illeagel. I would love to see the logical thought behind it all.

Not quite true, MJ, can bring on mental health issue for those with a genetic predispostion, and will most likey bring on the same for those who start smokeing before the age of 21 or so(basicaly before the brain has stopped maturing), or long term smokers(20-30 years).
I've read about marijuana influencing the mental breakdowns of people with predispositions to doing so, but I have never read that those who start using it before fully maturing are likely to have the same negative mental consequences. Do you have a link?

I've read about marijuana influencing the mental breakdowns of people with predispositions to doing so, but I have never read that those who start using it before fully maturing are likely to have the same negative mental consequences. Do you have a link?

Sorry I havn't but I'm sure that if you google it, you'll find plenty to read. Heh I guess on both sides, ya know for and agianst. Please take the time to do this, it is it is essential that if we decide to take recreational drugs, then we must learn about what effect both good and ill they will have on our bodies, I mean that is responsible drug taking yeah?

I've read about marijuana influencing the mental breakdowns of people with predispositions to doing so, but I have never read that those who start using it before fully maturing are likely to have the same negative mental consequences. Do you have a link?

Well, after a quick look, I haven't found any links to support that, but here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4606475.stm) is an interesting article about a study that claims marijuana might help people with some mental disorders.

I might try and find a link to the study itself, but this essay I am putting off doing is kinda looming in my mind...

well to be fair:

3) once you legalize a drug you can never ban it hence why we still have alcohol

Alchohol went from legal to illegal, and back to legal again. People can become more or less prudish over time.

Alchohol went from legal to illegal, and back to legal again. People can become more or less prudish over time.

Quoted for I like your name.

And remember, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise.

For a start, the "War on Drugs" costs $69 Billion a year. Admittedly not all of that is spent on persecuting pot smokers, but still, it's a lot of money.

http://leap.cc/About/about.php

For anyone who can't be arsed to click on that link, LEAP stands for Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. Basically a load of ex-cops / DEA agents who are vehemently opposed to the war on drugs. You just know that the law is fucking silly when even cops don't like enforcing it!

Surely the economic benefits of NOT spending $69 Billion a year more than outweigh the potential costs of drug rehab programs, proper education about the use and effects of drugs (rather than anti-drug paranoid propaganda) and any potential rise in healthcare costs.

A few points about Marijuana specifically though:

1. It's not physically addictive. It might be emotionally addictive, but this is entirely subjective and depends on the user. But unlike opiods, there are no debilitating physical withdrawal symptoms - I speak from experience here.

2. It can ease the pain, sleeplessness and nausea that result from trying to kick an opiod habit (heroin, morphine etc). That alone makes it a drug worth having in the legally prescribable pharmacopoiea.

3. Any harm that it does do is as a result of smoking it. Inhaling any sort of smoke is damaging to the lungs - there is no argument against that. But what anti-marijuana crusaders conveniently fail to take into account is that it doesn't have to be smoked. You can make it into tea, make an alcoholic extraction which you can add to just about anything, or use it as a herb in cooking. In my opinion, the effects derived from this method of use are far more pleasant than the immediate high that results from smoking it.

4. The medical uses of marijuana are many (and more are being discovered all the time). It is effective at relieving the pain and inflammation of arthritis. It helps relieve the syptoms of Multiple Sclerosis. It is useful for people who suffer from insomnia (I know this from personal experience also). It is also one of the most powerful anti-emetic (nausea suppressing) drugs known - just about the only thing that relieves the severe persistent nausea caused by chemotherapy. This allows cancer patients to eat and even gain weight - vital if they are to last the course of chemo treatment to save their lives.

5. It does not provoke people into behaving in a violent manner. In fact, it usually has precisely the opposite effect. The additional side-effect is that it stimulates the appetite very effectively, so I suppose it could add to the obesity statistics!

Most marijuana users take their jobs very seriously, simply because it can be so difficult to locate a decent job that doesn't have restrictive drug policies that prevent them from attaining or retaining a position.

These people fail to understand why their own work is devalued to such a degree simply because of what they choose to do with their own lives while not on the job.


Again...I think you may want to update your arguments.

Gee, I wonder why companies in the business of making money would take such action? There has to be a profit motive for them to take this action someplace. If potheads are such great worker there has to be another reason. What could it be?

In fact, the negative consequences of pot are no where near those of alcohol or tobacco.
Just because we made a mistake twice doesn't justify a third mistake. Especially when talking of levels of bad.


As I've already posted in this thread, the worst marijuana has been proven to do to a person is make them lazy and unable to focus. I'd say that lazyness and ADD are somewhat less of a threat to our society than murder.
And someone on this thread told me there was not negative economic impact.


Hasty generalization. Also, even if you had the statistics to back up your little statement, I'd like to point out that the possible societal damage from people being lazy and apathetic does not outweigh the interest of allowing personal freedom (a.k.a. "liberty"). Liberty ends where endangerment of the public begins.


I'd rather have it so that people are allowed to make their choices about what they wish to do with their own bodies. Wow...now I'm sounding like I'm defending abortion rights here. That makes me wonder: is it possible to be pro-choice and yet anti-legalization? Aren't the arguments for access to abortion and the legalization of marijuana essentially the same? Just a thought.
Don't remember hearing of a person getting an abortion endangering the public. It tends to be a personal action, not one that makes the person mentally incompetent while exposed to the public.

Well, the poll is for your opinion but I want some arguements. I have never gotten the other side of this topic, what makes someone actually believe Marijuana is a god forsaken drug that distroys lifes and kills people.

My stance:

Theres not point to it being illegal, the worse it can do is make people unproductive, but fuck alcohol is doing that already. I know it wont ever be legal (And I know other people probably have made something on this already) but I will fight for it until the day I die smoking. It was made illegal because of some political madman who wanted national recognition so he made it seem much worse...much, much, much worse then it really is. I can argue this all day but I want to see other peoples stances and just know what an anti-marijuana person thinks and why they think that way.

I agree so long as you don't smoke within proximity of the public, as they should not be forced to breathe your smoke.

I'd treat them same as I'd treat cigarettes: Free to do in private property (houses and bars, etc. which proclaim to be accepting of smokers visibly outside)

When my sister got pregnant one of the papers that she was reading said not to do drugs. It listed the drugs, and marijuana wasn't on there. I thought it was funny... and mj should be legalized considering that so many people do it anyways.

That's like saying "so many people drink drive, let's get rid of the alcohol limit for driving." or "so many people burgle houses, let legalise it!"

It's against the law, and that should be the way it is.

And as for lower lung cancer rates...at the price of?

It can exacerbate schizophrenia, (Link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBW-44130C3-5&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F01%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=450d0d9767016b53c61a89b45f615647)), plus a possible link between cannibis and it causing schizophrenia.

Oh, not forgetting the paranoia. And the increased risk of low school performance and leaving early (Link (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1360-0443.2000.951116213.x)).

And it stinks. Cigarettes are bad enough, but walking around with cannabis smoke in one's face? It'd be better for me never to leave the house.

I agree so long as you don't smoke within proximity of the public, as they should not be forced to breathe your smoke.

I'd treat them same as I'd treat cigarettes: Free to do in private property (houses and bars, etc. which proclaim to be accepting of smokers visibly outside)

Thats what i;ve been looking for, thats all i've wanted. Marijuana should be treated like cigarettes as they are as harmful what with the cancer but less harmful because of the lack of extra chemicals inside.

What needs to be done is a buisiness needs to produce Marijuana like it was a cigarette in itself and sell them in packs, get an age limitation on it and everything should be good. Theres not reason it is still illegal cause all the government is doing is placing harmless people into the jail society. Im sorry but I would rather go into politics under a clean slate rather then with a minor infraction for smoking a plant, if im going to be corrupt it better be because I accepted a bribe or killed a man.

That's like saying "so many people drink drive, let's get rid of the alcohol limit for driving." or "so many people burgle houses, let legalise it!"

It's against the law, and that should be the way it is.

And *that* is rather like saying, "Being Jewish is against the law, and that should be the way it is."

Law =/= morality.


It can exacerbate schizophrenia, (Link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBW-44130C3-5&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F01%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=450d0d9767016b53c61a89b45f615647)), plus a possible link between cannibis and it causing schizophrenia.

*Anything* can exacerbate schizophrenia. If you're a schizophrenic you shouldn't be smoking weed... or watching TV for that matter. Doesn't mean we need to criminalize anything that exacerbates schizophrenia.

As for causing schizophrenia... bunk.


And it stinks. Cigarettes are bad enough, but walking around with cannabis smoke in one's face? It'd be better for me never to leave the house.

You're absolutely right, and should probably never leave the house.

Honestly, there are people in this world who have to worry about stepping on a landmine. Here you are whining because of an icky smell. Grow a pair!

And it stinks. Cigarettes are bad enough, but walking around with cannabis smoke in one's face? It'd be better for me never to leave the house.

Not going to address your actual arguements--too lazy. However, I will say that I don't understand how people don't like the smell of bud. I love it, in the bag and when its being smoked. I really like the taste of it's smoke though, especially with some chronic fruity shit. Actually, I can understand hating the smell, if all you've smelled is bammer....or maybe it is just an acquired taste.

Just because we made a mistake twice doesn't justify a third mistake. Especially when talking of levels of bad.
It wouldn't be a "mistake" -- it would be allowing people the personal freedom to decide what they wish to do.
And someone on this thread told me there was not negative economic impact.
Wow.

Liberty ends where endangerment of the public begins.
In that vain, I suppose we should ban driving altogether. The very act of driving a motor vehicle itself, even sober, is the largest endangerment to the public out of all of the activities that peope partake in. Also, we should ban the profession of being a chef; people get food poisoning all the time, and may even die from it. With your logic, we should basically make laws banning every profession and practice currently legal in our society. It's ridiculous to make something illegal for everyone purely due to the actions of a few idiots.


Don't remember hearing of a person getting an abortion endangering the public. It tends to be a personal action, not one that makes the person mentally incompetent while exposed to the public.

And yet, both movements emphasize personal liberty over government tyranny...and as I've already mentioned, your "public endangerment" argument is paper thin.

Gee, I wonder why companies in the business of making money would take such action? There has to be a profit motive for them to take this action someplace. If potheads are such great worker there has to be another reason. What could it be?

The main reason is that, if an accident occurs on the job, and an employee with THC in his/her system is hurt or hurts someone else, there are numerous legal issues regarding current workplace safety laws in regards to liability and medical leave. (ie: $$$)

...that the person may not have smoked in weeks is, in the eyes of the law, inconsequential.

The main reason is that, if an accident occurs on the job, and an employee with THC in his/her system is hurt or hurts someone else, there are numerous legal issues regarding current workplace safety laws in regards to liability and medical leave. (ie: $$$)

...that the person may not have smoked in weeks is, in the eyes of the law, inconsequential.

And this would change with legalization?

A lot of the arguments against legalization rely on 'if-then' hypotheticals that exist in a bubble where Amsterdam doesn't exist.

It is legal in Amsterdam. If your 'if-then' doesn't exist there you're going to have to establish why you think your 'here' (taking into account that NSG has a whole lot of 'heres') is somehow less capable of dealing with legalization than Amsterdam.

I have no problems at all with hemp, the part of the plant that is not smoked. You can get all sorts of things from hemp, starting at ropes and clothes and going all the way along to hair care products. (Alterna is a hair care brand that uses hemp extract).

I have no problems with pot for medical use, from glaucoma to end-stage cancer patients needing a boost in their apetites and some pain relief/distraction and depression reliever.

The problems I have with pot come when people start using it recreationally. I have no logic for this, I have a pretty horrid past experience and am thus biased to a degree that I can't explain my way out of. I've tried a few times, in conversations with others, but it just doesn't work. My first reaction is a horrified 'no!' and then the rest of my brain takes over a few seconds later.

I wish we could make use of the positive side of the plant itself, and maybe even start using THC extract for other positive things, without letting people go around willy-nilly with joints. Of course, if it was legal then it could be quality controlled and produced in factories so maybe those negs would be less of a deal. *sigh* I dunno.

Not going to address your actual arguements--too lazy. However, I will say that I don't understand how people don't like the smell of bud. I love it, in the bag and when its being smoked. I really like the taste of it's smoke though, especially with some chronic fruity shit. Actually, I can understand hating the smell, if all you've smelled is bammer....or maybe it is just an acquired taste.

i like the smell too. the bud a lot, not so much the smoke... but its a lot nicer than tobacco smoke!

my girlfriend even kinda liked the smell (of both bud and smoke) when we went to amsterdam, so its not such an aquired taste perhaps :) (damnit now i can really imagine the smell of some sweet green nugs.... arrrggg!:p)

A lot of the arguments against legalization rely on 'if-then' hypotheticals that exist in a bubble where Amsterdam doesn't exist.

It is legal in Amsterdam. If your 'if-then' doesn't exist there you're going to have to establish why you think your 'here' (taking into account that NSG has a whole lot of 'heres') is somehow less capable of dealing with legalization than Amsterdam.
Well, here in the UK we aren't capable of anything without screwing up, moaning about it in the tabloids, blaming the Human Rights Act, and changing our minds and doing a U-Turn with the whole thing.

http://www.hlj.me.uk/ns/Photo-0067a.jpg

from our recent holiday in the 'dam :)

Zomg, it's PM. sup. Good holiday, then? I haven't said hey to you in a while.

It's Jordaxia. If I recall, I drew your picture (and possess your immortal soul).



....Do you still look like Jesus?

And *that* is rather like saying, "Being Jewish is against the law, and that should be the way it is."

Law =/= morality.

Since when did being Jewish harm anyone? Buglary can destroy lives, drink-driving can end them, that's why they're against the law and being Jewish isn't. It's also why cannabis is against the law.

*Anything* can exacerbate schizophrenia. If you're a schizophrenic you shouldn't be smoking weed... or watching TV for that matter. Doesn't mean we need to criminalize anything that exacerbates schizophrenia.

Yes. Anything at all... :rolleyes:

As for causing schizophrenia... bunk.

Link (http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~streater/cannabis.html). That doesn't claim it is the cause, but if anything, it's a major factor.

You're absolutely right, and should probably never leave the house.

Honestly, there are people in this world who have to worry about stepping on a landmine. Here you are whining because of an icky smell. Grow a pair!

Pah. I'll ignore the insults. Don't waste your time. Use it for something better than telling me to "grow a pair". What if you didn't like the smell of vomit? Should I tell you to "grow a pair"? I wouldn't waste my time.

Not to mention that if the British legalised it, everyone would just go to France because it was cheaper.

http://www.hlj.me.uk/ns/Photo-0067a.jpg

from our recent holiday in the 'dam :)
Must have been a good holiday...

I have no problems with pot for medical use, from glaucoma to end-stage cancer patients needing a boost in their apetites and some pain relief/distraction and depression reliever.

Just hold up, medical use is fine and believing in that is understandable but the problem comes with the disease. In which this could change into a topic about euthanasia, End-Stage cancer only strains the patient and his/her family taking most of the money from them and broking them just because they cant let the cancer patient die. Why euthanasia is not legal I will never know, its obvious when a patient is asking for death it should be given rather then prolonging it and wasting the money of the entire family. its utter bullshit why a person cannot "pull the plug" so to say, on some one who is in so much pain they want to die and really they know there is no way to help them other then let them die. The doctors just want there fucking money, thats all, doctors are suppose to help and heal people and all they care about now is there money (Im getting worked up cause I know an end-stage cancer patient, his family is broke now because the doctors are prolonging the inevitable). Either way, what I mean to say is the use of marijuana in cases as such would only be used as another reason to prolong the life of someone who is on their way to death.

The problems I have with pot come when people start using it recreationally. I have no logic for this, I have a pretty horrid past experience and am thus biased to a degree that I can't explain my way out of. I've tried a few times, in conversations with others, but it just doesn't work. My first reaction is a horrified 'no!' and then the rest of my brain takes over a few seconds later.

This is were the problems arrise, sure medical uses are fine but most people use it recreationally and will not stop until its legal for that kind of use. Your horrid past experiences must be pretty bad, maybe a laced bag though because I can go a whole day of smoking and not feel bad at all, in that case it would be your fault for not knowing your source.

I wish we could make use of the positive side of the plant itself, and maybe even start using THC extract for other positive things, without letting people go around willy-nilly with joints. Of course, if it was legal then it could be quality controlled and produced in factories so maybe those negs would be less of a deal. *sigh* I dunno.

Then people would take the THC and turn that into a drug in itself and we would be talking about the legalization of the THC extract. And no, people dont go around willy-nilly with joints, the more common use is a piece or a blunt (Joints were the 60's and 70's). Also, soon they will eliminate all negative aspects of marijuana with vaporizers. I've heard this once before and so I believe it needs to be said, its not the marijuana that causes the problems its the smoke, with a vaporizer you eliminate the smoke and get the same effect from breathing it.

That's like saying "so many people drink drive, let's get rid of the alcohol limit for driving." or "so many people burgle houses, let legalise it!"

It's against the law, and that should be the way it is.

And as for lower lung cancer rates...at the price of?

It can exacerbate schizophrenia, (Link (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBW-44130C3-5&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F01%2F2001&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=450d0d9767016b53c61a89b45f615647)), plus a possible link between cannibis and it causing schizophrenia.

Oh, not forgetting the paranoia. And the increased risk of low school performance and leaving early (Link (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1360-0443.2000.951116213.x)).

And it stinks. Cigarettes are bad enough, but walking around with cannabis smoke in one's face? It'd be better for me never to leave the house.


Man, I smoke and my school proformence has not gone anywhere from its usual, I make good grades and so I dont see where you get that from.

The paranoia is brought on because of it being illegal, people are afraid of getting caught, and constantly looking around for someone who might catch them. Go to Amsterdam and not a single person is paranoid, (Well maybe some people) because it is legal.

I saw someone say something about your legality statement. So its illegal, and to quote that person, being jewish was made illegal so therefore thats the way it should stay? You are messed up man, a blind follower. Burgling a house and smoking a blunt are not the same thing, first off I smoke and it causes a problem to no one, I don't harm anyone and end up going home to sleep. A burglar goes into a house intending on hurting someone, he steals their stuff and if they come home usually kills the person or runs off braking something in the process. Drunk driving on the other hand, another different thing or at least for me, I can keep some sort of stable metality after im blazed up but other people may not, but i've seen people so messed up that can hardly walk drive home perfectly normal like pro's even get out walk into their house then collapse.

Well theres my rants for tonight.

Since when did being Jewish harm anyone? Buglary can destroy lives, drink-driving can end them, that's why they're against the law and being Jewish isn't.

Being Jewish WAS against the law - the Nuremburg Laws, effectively.

And it is your argument, not mine, that if something is illegal, it is wrong.

Now you're changing the goal posts, so that if it "can destroy lives," it is against the law. But even that's just laughably untrue. Driving a car, completely sober, "can destroy lives," but it's not against the law. Your argument is demonstrably false.

Yes. Anything at all... :rolleyes:

Hey, you're the one using "can exacerbate schizophrenia" as some sort of argument for illegalization, not me. If you're serious about that, then it follows - if you want to be consistent and reasonable - that anything that "can exacerbate schizophrenia" should ALSO be illegal. Otherwise, it smacks - just a tiny bit! - of you grasping at straws in order to justify your own bias.

Link (http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~streater/cannabis.html). That doesn't claim it is the cause, but if anything, it's a major factor.

You're right, it doesn't claim it's the cause, and it doesn't support your argument that marijuana use causes schizophrenia. Furthermore you can't say it's a "major factor" because it doesn't examine the whole body of schizophrenics and conclude that a major factor in their condition was marijuana use - not even a correlation.

Try again.

Pah. I'll ignore the insults. Don't waste your time. Use it for something better than telling me to "grow a pair". What if you didn't like the smell of vomit? Should I tell you to "grow a pair"? I wouldn't waste my time.

I don't like the smell of vomit, but I'm not sitting here arguing for the criminalization of vomiting on the basis of my dislike. Hence, I apparently have something you do not. Perhaps I'm just not so deeply sensitive?

http://www.hlj.me.uk/ns/Photo-0067a.jpg

from our recent holiday in the 'dam :)

Hot Damn. Looks like you had some fun...

And regarding your comment about the smell...yeah, you may be right. I know people who don't smoke who really like the smell of buds, and some that hate it...but I have yet to come across a single person who smokes who doesn't love the smell of some good weed.

This is were the problems arrise, sure medical uses are fine but most people use it recreationally and will not stop until its legal for that kind of use. Your horrid past experiences must be pretty bad, maybe a laced bag though because I can go a whole day of smoking and not feel bad at all, in that case it would be your fault for not knowing your source.

I dunno about a laced bag man, a small fraction of people just have bad reacions to marijuana. No fault of theirs. It isn't for everyone.

Then people would take the THC and turn that into a drug in itself and we would be talking about the legalization of the THC extract. And no, people dont go around willy-nilly with joints, the more common use is a piece or a blunt (Joints were the 60's and 70's). Also, soon they will eliminate all negative aspects of marijuana with vaporizers. I've heard this once before and so I believe it needs to be said, its not the marijuana that causes the problems its the smoke, with a vaporizer you eliminate the smoke and get the same effect from breathing it.

I dunno about your ideas about joints, I mean, I smoke a fiar number of joints...more joints than blunts, although I may be smoking six or seven today...

However, the point is people running around willy-nilly with bud, not specifically a joint...which might happen, unless smoking is outlawed in public. I know a few places have done that, and my town is pushing to ban smoking in parks (a pity, as I love to smoke a joint in the park, and I can't really if even cigarette smoking is banned...). I suppose it is a valid concern, although I don't see any problem with it if these people are just walking around...

And as for vaporisers, I find they give slightly different effects than just smoking, but mostly the problem I have with vaporisers is that they aren't portable, and require an outlet to plug in to...unless of course you use a godsdamned meth pipe status vaporizer.

I dunno about a laced bag man, a small fraction of people just have bad reacions to marijuana. No fault of theirs. It isn't for everyone.



I dunno about your ideas about joints, I mean, I smoke a fiar number of joints...more joints than blunts, although I may be smoking six or seven today...
Dude, you need a better grade of weed.

However, the point is people running around willy-nilly with bud, not specifically a joint...which might happen, unless smoking is outlawed in public. I know a few places have done that, and my town is pushing to ban smoking in parks (a pity, as I love to smoke a joint in the park, and I can't really if even cigarette smoking is banned...). I suppose it is a valid concern, although I don't see any problem with it if these people are just walking around...

And as for vaporisers, I find they give slightly different effects than just smoking, but mostly the problem I have with vaporisers is that they aren't portable, and require an outlet to plug in to...unless of course you use a godsdamned meth pipe status vaporizer.
Smoking weed will never be legal in public anymore than me downing a beer in public is legal. It's silly to assume that weed will have less restriction than the already legal intoxicant. (that we sell at gas stations...brilliant)

My only problem with vaporizers (they do sell portable ones, just not in the US as far as I can tell) is that it takes four times as long and it's harder to tell when you're tapping an empty well. Otherwise, big fan.

Being Jewish WAS against the law - the Nuremburg Laws, effectively.

And it is your argument, not mine, that if something is illegal, it is wrong.

Again, since when did being Jewish harm anyone?

Now you're changing the goal posts, so that if it "can destroy lives," it is against the law. But even that's just laughably untrue. Driving a car, completely sober, "can destroy lives," but it's not against the law. Your argument is demonstrably false.

No. Driving a car dangerously can destroy lives. Driving a car is safe and harms few (idiot pedestrians), providing you follow the regulations and rules of the road. Hence why "Dangerous Driving" is against the law and "Driving" isn't.

Hey, you're the one using "can exacerbate schizophrenia" as some sort of argument for illegalization, not me. If you're serious about that, then it follows - if you want to be consistent and reasonable - that anything that "can exacerbate schizophrenia" should ALSO be illegal. Otherwise, it smacks - just a tiny bit! - of you grasping at straws in order to justify your own bias.

No, I'm using it as one of the reasons it should be illegal, not the reason. You talk as if it's my only argument.

You're right, it doesn't claim it's the cause, and it doesn't support your argument that marijuana use causes schizophrenia. Furthermore you can't say it's a "major factor" because it doesn't examine the whole body of schizophrenics and conclude that a major factor in their condition was marijuana use - not even a correlation.

Try again.

Something from the Swedish Health Authority:

Adverse Health Consequences of Cannabis Use (http://www.fhi.se/upload/PDF/2004/English/r200446adversehealthconsequencescannabis0503.pdf). Take a look at Chapter 3. I think they might have done their research.

I don't like the smell of vomit, but I'm not sitting here arguing for the criminalization of vomiting on the basis of my dislike.

Conceded.

Hence, I apparently have something you do not. Perhaps I'm just not so deeply sensitive?

Again, personal insults. Meh. Again.

Well, the poll is for your opinion but I want some arguements. I have never gotten the other side of this topic, what makes someone actually believe Marijuana is a god forsaken drug that distroys lifes and kills people.

My stance:

Theres not point to it being illegal, the worse it can do is make people unproductive, but fuck alcohol is doing that already. I know it wont ever be legal (And I know other people probably have made something on this already) but I will fight for it until the day I die smoking. It was made illegal because of some political madman who wanted national recognition so he made it seem much worse...much, much, much worse then it really is. I can argue this all day but I want to see other peoples stances and just know what an anti-marijuana person thinks and why they think that way.

Doesn't matter to me. It's illegal, that's all that matters to me right now.

Again, since when did being Jewish harm anyone?

It doesn't, thats the arguement. You say because marijuana is illegal thats the way it should stay but statistics show an almost .001% of drug related deaths are traced back to marijuana, therefore it does not hurt people. Because being jewish was besically against the lay in Germany during 193(Forgetting the last number) to 1945 shoud it have stayed that way, being jewish never hurt anyone but because it was against the law using your logic there should still be death camps and gestapo.


No. Driving a car dangerously can destroy lives. Driving a car is safe and harms few (idiot pedestrians), providing you follow the regulations and rules of the road. Hence why "Dangerous Driving" is against the law and "Driving" isn't.

Not really, I've been in accidents where neither person were at fault. It just happened and there was a very good chance people could have been hurt or even killed. I have a friend that was T-boned because of your so called rules of the road, the rule here is if there aint problems why fix it, we have a four way stop light where people come and go because there is no specified light there, if two people arrive at the same time its up to one person to decide whether to go or not and if it seems one person aint gunna go then decides to go and the other person goes without checking neither are at fault because they had no specified rule on that. People get hit and hurt while safely driving.

Doesn't matter to me. It's illegal, that's all that matters to me right now.

This is where im troubled, just because something is illegal does not make the item or substance bad. Once again when a government makes something illegal they say its for the betterment of their people but when the people realize they do not want the government deciding certain things for them they need to speak up. ESPECIALLY in these times where such a conservative republican runs the government like his own little plaything (For those in the US) and goes to war all willy-nilly (Reference to the "going around smoking joints all willy-nilly." comment.

EDIT: Oh and not only goes to war all willy-nilly but acts so confident about it he looks retarded. Mission Accomplished in what 2005 but people still dieing and fighting continueing through 2007 then vetos all chances at some hope of pulling out boys back. Truly we fucked up (Not flaming, just cursing), we ruined that country. We went in and took, though he was a dictator, a relativly good leader (Excluding his hatred, he ran the country good) then eliminated the Baath party who at the time were the only real politicians in Iraq, then got rid of the army (w00t for thousands of unemployed, weapon weilding, american hating, iraqi's) then got rid of the only person in the military branch that knew what he was doing and replacing him with a dumbfuck. I AM ANTI-BUSH ADMINISTRATION AND RIGHTFULLY SO!!! (Nothing to do with marijuana, though judging by his stance im guessing he's highly against it. This is why I liked Clinton, we all know he smoked I mean if he lied about Hillary he had to lie about not inhaling)

Dude, I am so blazed right now..................................

count it, uhn!!!

Dude, I am so blazed right now..................................

I would be...but I gotta get two OZ's on the 10th so I need to save up, bought a damn scale with my extra cash though so I no longer have to judge how much goes into an 1/8 or so..

Yes, I in certain words, deal, but do not think that thats why I say legalize it. Once its legal I get no income...=-P

Again, since when did being Jewish harm anyone?

Oh, well you see, there were studies that showed that Jews were subhuman, and as such did not adhere nor respect the laws of Germany nor the German people. They "declared war" on Germany, and consistently undermined the German economy.

But that's not the point, is it? It is - again - YOUR case that marijuana is wrong, because it's illegal. NOT that it "harms anyone."

No. Driving a car dangerously can destroy lives. Driving a car is safe and harms few (idiot pedestrians)

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. I have at least one dead friend who could say otherwise, if she wasn't - you know - dead.

Things are not illegal based purely on whether they "harm people." Cigarettes are harmful, but legal. Alcohol is harmful, but legal. Driving a car is harmful, but legal. Watching TV is harmful, but legal. Eating at McDonald's is harmful, but legal. Suntanning is harmful, but legal. Get the point yet?


No, I'm using it as one of the reasons it should be illegal, not the reason. You talk as if it's my only argument.


it isn't valid whether it's just ONE reason, or THE reason. It isn't a valid reason to be illegal, period.

Something from the Swedish Health Authority:

Adverse Health Consequences of Cannabis Use (http://www.fhi.se/upload/PDF/2004/English/r200446adversehealthconsequencescannabis0503.pdf). Take a look at Chapter 3. I think they might have done their research.


Lovely. But, it doesn't relate to your claimed causation of schizophrenia whatsoever. We can all throw out huge studies without making any argument or discussion, but I don't think that's very worthwhile.

Again, personal insults. Meh. Again.

Not at all. Being sensitive is actually rather valued in our society. I don't see why it would be an insult to you for me to point out that I'm a cold, angry bastard.

Dude, you need a better grade of weed.

Actually, it was some quite high quality marijuana, but it was a special occasion, a frend's birthday, and he loves smoking blunts.


Smoking weed will never be legal in public anymore than me downing a beer in public is legal. It's silly to assume that weed will have less restriction than the already legal intoxicant. (that we sell at gas stations...brilliant)

That is a good point...

My only problem with vaporizers (they do sell portable ones, just not in the US as far as I can tell) is that it takes four times as long and it's harder to tell when you're tapping an empty well. Otherwise, big fan.

Yeah, I know that some vaporisers can be plugged into car jacks and such, and I have seen some that you just use any flame to heat, but that is too close to a meth pipe for my liking.

They do take longer, but they conserve a lot more.

I would support the legalization of weed *in trade* for the ban of alcohol.

As a witness of both, it's clear to me that alcohol does horrible damage and, even though I hate drugs, I must admit I can't really name anything marijuana does to harm..

Marijuana screws up your brain..it should be legal, but have a high tax on it and only sold by the goverment...oh and if you do anything obnoxius while taking it not our prob you get shot:sniper: and killed:eek: ...its still your prob.

I would support the legalization of weed *in trade* for the ban of alcohol.

As a witness of both, it's clear to me that alcohol does horrible damage and, even though I hate drugs, I must admit I can't really name anything marijuana does to harm..

That makes sence but with a ban on alcohol you bring another prohibition era, bringing forth more alcohol lords (Like drug lords but in the US...deadlier). Moonshine Runners and an entirly new culture with the old prohibition type. Marijuana on the other hand has never been accounted as a maybe drug lord cash crop, though in Jamaica it is the more common crop compared to any other and you can be killed for fucking with their weed, but in all its not the most common drug related killer.

But like I said, we cannot exchange but enforce harder laws on alcohol and if legalizing marijuana enforce those laws as well. I am in favor of government control over certain aspects of daily life, ciggerettes, alcohol and marijuana shuold be government controled and taxed as these are very commonly used products that would be bought at any price. Maybe not ciggerettes but it would beat smoking individual brand types that only care about their money not their customers.

Marijuana screws up your brain..it should be legal, but have a high tax on it and only sold by the goverment...oh and if you do anything obnoxius while taking it not our prob you get shot:sniper: and killed:eek: ...its still your prob.

That sucks... I don't know if I can control my obnoxiusness but I don't want to die.

That sucks... I don't know if I can control my obnoxiusness but I don't want to die.

don't worry, just strap yourself to a couch then smoke up :D

That makes sence but with a ban on alcohol you bring another prohibition era, bringing forth more alcohol lords (Like drug lords but in the US...deadlier). Moonshine Runners and an entirly new culture with the old prohibition type.
True, Good Point. Higher Taxes and stricter laws on alcohol.

True, Good Point. Higher Taxes and stricter laws on alcohol.

Raising taxes only would control it to a point, once the taxed price reaches or exceeds the black market price, people would be making/selling moonshine and smuggling alcohol to make a profit on the difference in price.

Marijuana needs to be legalized. It's not because hemp's useful, and it's not because fewer people will smoke it if it's legal, the plain and simple is I like to smoke mary jane and I hate feeling like I'm breaking the law when I'm taking a relaxing puff puff.