NationStates Jolt Archive

The article here speaks of "multiculturalism", but personally, I think the idea of "culture" should be entirely abandoned. I don't think that just because someone is from a certain part of the world they should be expected to behave in a certain way/have certain views/etc.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2496657.ece

Here are some of the worst consequences of regarding people as "cultures", taken from the article.

She said she would not grant an early divorce because - despite the police documentation of extreme violence and continued threats - there was no "unreasonable hardship" here.

Why? Because the woman, as a Muslim, should have "expected" it, the judge explained. She read out passages from the Koran to show that Muslim husbands have the "right to use corporal punishment". Look at Sura 4, verse 34, she said to Nishal, where the Koran says he can hammer you. That's your culture.

A Lebanese-German who strangled his daughter Ibthahale and then beat her unconscious with a bludgeon because she didn't want to marry the man he had picked out for her was sentenced to mere probation. His "cultural background" was cited by the judge as a mitigating factor.

The article here speaks of "multiculturalism", but personally, I think the idea of "culture" should be entirely abandoned. I don't think that just because someone is from a certain part of the world they should be expected to behave in a certain way/have certain views/etc.

http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/johann_hari/article2496657.ece

Here are some of the worst consequences of regarding people as "cultures", taken from the article.

I read it earlier. There are evidently three or more similar German court incidents where the court cited the immigrant's culture and recognition of that culture as a means of stomping on the rights of women.

Essentially, if you're an immigrant woman from one of those countries, and you came to Germany expecting to be treated as a real person, you're sadly mistaken. The system will actively fuck you in the name of the culture you left behind.

I think you have more of a bone to pick with dipshit judges than with culture.

Without culture, I'd have no cheese. :(

personally, I think the idea of "culture" should be entirely abandoned

how do you intend to live with people then?

how do you intend to live with people then?

They'll have to go. *nod*

I think it's become increasingly difficult to define culture in the modern, globalized world. The traditional realms of culture are being broken and shattered by increased interdependence, communications and ease of travel. Integrative cultures, especially the Anglo-Saxon ones, are no longer the well-defined forms they once were, with not even language being a unifying feature in the US anymore. We need to look at a new definition if we want to understand culture in the modern setting.

I think you have more of a bone to pick with dipshit judges than with culture.

Without culture, I'd have no cheese. :(

But you eat it because you like it surely? Not just because it's "cultural"?

how do you intend to live with people then?

Not understanding this remark, should I assume that it is based on an alternative definition of culture?

But you eat it because you like it surely? Not just because it's "cultural"?

But you need cultures to make cheese. Cheese cannot exist without cultures. *nod*

I think it's become increasingly difficult to define culture in the modern, globalized world. The traditional realms of culture are being broken and shattered by increased interdependence, communications and ease of travel. Integrative cultures, especially the Anglo-Saxon ones, are no longer the well-defined forms they once were, with not even language being a unifying feature in the US anymore. We need to look at a new definition if we want to understand culture in the modern setting.

Seconded. The thing is, our idea of culture is an old one, stemming from a time when contacts between them were limited and there was a clear demarcation between "us" and "them". Now, in our globalized society, things are totally different; these relations are turned upside down and many of our conceptions of culture have been lost.

But you need cultures to make cheese. Cheese cannot exist without cultures. *nod*

Well, there are some types of "cheese food" that don't really require cultures, but they are not true cheeses.

I wouldn't mind a slice of havarti right now, come to think of it...

Why is it that the immigrant who beats his wife to 'keep her in line' in accordance with his culture is let off scot-free, while the native who beats his wife to 'keep her in line' is punished? Don't they both see it as a good (relatively speaking)? Either we can reason that the act is intrinsically wrong and should always be punished, or we should let people do as they will because it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Not understanding this remark, should I assume that it is based on an alternative definition of culture?

no, its using the only coherent meaning of the term. a question - how frequently do you wear a penis gourd?

Why is it that the immigrant who beats his wife to 'keep her in line' in accordance with his culture is let off scot-free, while the native who beats his wife to 'keep her in line' is punished? Don't they both see it as a good (relatively speaking)? Either we can reason that the act is intrinsically wrong and should always be punished, or we should let people do as they will because it is all in the eye of the beholder.

Doesn't that seem to be a bit of a false dilemma? Wouldn't it be possible to enact a system in which certain acts are always morally wrong and others may not be?

The editorial linked to in the OP quotes someone who is factually incorrect on at least one count. Due to this, I would like to see some corroboration of the author's other claims.

It also fails to mention that Christa Datz-Winter was removed from the case and disciplined.

I would like to see some of the news article that the columnist is apparently quoting.

But you need cultures to make cheese. Cheese cannot exist without cultures. *nod*

*Groan*

no, its using the only coherent meaning of the term.
If the meaning of which I spoke was not coherent, all the more reason to get rid of it.

a question - how frequently do you wear a penis gourd?
Zero% of the time, you?

Zero% of the time

why? too formal?

I actually just got into a discussion about culture with one of my friends this morning. She spent a few months in Japan a year ago and was making the point that America doesn't really have a culture and that if we do, it consists of laziness, mediocrity, superficial vanity and/or obesity. I had a hard time mustering even the slightest bit of nationalistic pride to counter her point. Anyone who retains even the slightest trace of their former "culture" is basically un-American.

More to the point of the topic, when you move from one culture to another you tend to take a lot with you. A Japanese immigrant may bring J-rock and Anime; a Muslim may bring misogynist and violence. Not every person is going to bring the same thing - not every Muslim is going to be a bastard (as with the examples from Germany). The bottom line though is that once you get where you're going, your culture is behind you... You WILL be judged according to the culture you joined (well, maybe not in Germany :rolleyes: ) and you will definitely be subject to it's laws.

Beyond that, our idea of "culture" is outdated and more nebulous then ever. For God's sake, it's easier for me to talk to someone living in Australia then it is to talk to the man living down the street! Modern communication (and nothing more so then the Internet) and falling language barriers is making distinctions decay and business is bringing other cultures right into our homes (a few years ago most people didn't know what the hell Anime was). Sure, you're going to get dirt bags along the way, but it's far outweighed by the beneficial contributions we enjoy everyday.

I think it's become increasingly difficult to define culture in the modern, globalized world. The traditional realms of culture are being broken and shattered by increased interdependence, communications and ease of travel. Integrative cultures, especially the Anglo-Saxon ones, are no longer the well-defined forms they once were, with not even language being a unifying feature in the US anymore. We need to look at a new definition if we want to understand culture in the modern setting.

and yet no one in the global north wears penis gourds, not even in summer. seems to me that culture is as easy as ever, but there is an increasingly global set of shared cultural norms and practices. those themselves constitutes a new cultural form, with regional variations on the theme.

and how do you plan to get rid of culture?

That is to say, how do you intend to get rid of all of our books, movies, music, foods, language, clothing, houses, education systems, politics, religion, and just about every other way that humans interact with eachother?

alright...time to bring in the Melting Pot

The editorial linked to in the OP quotes someone who is factually incorrect on at least one count. Due to this, I would like to see some corroboration of the author's other claims.

It also fails to mention that Christa Datz-Winter was removed from the case and disciplined.

I would like to see some of the news article that the columnist is apparently quoting.

It mentions more than one judgment, by more than one judge.

The article here speaks of "multiculturalism", but personally, I think the idea of "culture" should be entirely abandoned.
The writer gets it wrong. The problem is not multiculturalism, but the misuse of the idea of multiculturalism. That is to say, for example in the case of the women where Christa Datz-Winter sat as a judge, she misunderstood the culture of which she based her desicion - as evident by the outrage of muslim leaders at what she wrote.

and how do you plan to get rid of culture?

That is to say, how do you intend to get rid of all of our books, movies, music, foods, language, clothing, houses, education systems, politics, religion, and just about every other way that humans interact with eachother?

Indeed. Culture is not something you "get rid of" without taking extremely drastic actions (like genocide). However, it's something you may try to change.

and how do you plan to get rid of culture?

maybe they just mean everyone else's

Doesn't that seem to be a bit of a false dilemma? Wouldn't it be possible to enact a system in which certain acts are always morally wrong and others may not be?

Where did I say that we should have a system in which ALL acts are morally wrong?