NationStates Jolt Archive

The disproportionate number of racial minorities in prison is abhorrent.
We must implement a means of levying this injustice.
Therefore, I propose that the criminal justice system implement a system of quotas.
In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.


EDIT:
To all latecomers/people too lazy to read the whole thread -
This was my opening move into an affirmative action debate.
The idea was that it is absurd to enforce racial quotas, positive or negative.
In the midgame, I learned that government-enforced racial quotas are illegal.
Universities are not allowed to have quotas, but they are allowed to take race into consideration, which I disagree with.

The disproportionate number of racial minorities in prison is abhorrent.
We must implement a means of levying this injustice.
Therefore, I propose that the criminal justice system implement a system of quotas.
In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.

Tell me that was sarcasm. Please tell me it was.

Ah.

But lets presume a minority group member would perform a crime which would usually lead to a life sentence. Let's say, he raped and then murdered someone or something in that fashion. But they can't let him into prison because... there are already to many members of that same minority group in prison?
Is that what it is, or do I really really need a nap?

I totally agree. It's time for whitey to get what's been comming to him for the past 500 years.

Tell me that was sarcasm. Please tell me it was.

Why would you think that?
*tells you*
See affirmative action.

Ah.

But lets presume a minority group member would perform a crime which would usually lead to a life sentence. Let's say, he raped and then murdered someone or something in that fashion. But they can't let him into prison because... there are already to many members of that same minority group in prison?
Is that what it is, or do I really really need a nap?

They could just go around looking for some white guy doing something illegal (if you know what I mean).

The disproportionate number of racial minorities in prison is abhorrent.
We must implement a means of levying this injustice.
Therefore, I propose that the criminal justice system implement a system of quotas.
In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.

I agree with you, in the sense that I think you're making the argument against positive discrimination, which I think is a bad idea.

They could just go around looking for some white guy doing something illegal (if you know what I mean).

You've just made a very well hidden, but very very true point...

/me has maked a poll.

Reverse discrimination isn't going to change who commits the crimes to begin with.

Yes, the government should intervene to ensure racial equality.

Racial equality, of course, does not at all constitute setting up racial quotas for prisoners.


See affirmative action.

See ridiculous straw man.

So just because whiteys are the only race who can behave civilized in better proportions they should be slapped on the wrists for behaving good. /sarcasm


Also don't be ridicolous, I assume you are speaking of the US? If so it is only the African American community that has a gross percentage in prison for their population percentage. Asian and Latin Americans should also now get harsher sentences, or just Caucasians?

Also how do you propose to deal with people of mixed race?

Why would you think that?
*tells you*
See affirmative action.

This message is brought to you by the League of People Who Are Clueless About Affirmative Action.

How is this different for setting other quotas to bypass merit (positive or negative)?

How is this different for setting other quotas to bypass merit (positive or negative)?

Please provide an example of a law that sets up quotas to bypass merit.

Be specific. Not just some general idea you have, but what exact statute.

Until you can do this you are simply burning strawmen.

Good luck.

If so it is only the African American community that has a gross percentage in prison for their population percentage.

Um, Hispanics are disproportionately imprisoned too.

Please provide an example of a law that sets up quotas to bypass merit.

Be specific. Not just some general idea you have, but what exact statute.

Until you can do this you are simply burning strawmen.

Good luck.

When you post things it makes me want to rent Bette Midler to sing you a song about heroes and wings and wind. But then I come to the conclusion that this would make anybody upset and question why they bother to live in a world where a lunatic like me would do such a thing. So, I do the respectful thing and keep my hands busy with the devil's work and nod my head in approval.

According to the FBI uniform crime statistics a large majority of the crime is committed by blacks and latinos. What you are saying is that we should ignore this and instead focus on jailing more white people at all costs, just because it 'feels' good to you; well justice does not work that way. People who commit crime are the people who should be in jail, the fact that minorities commit those crime more often speaks more to the subculture of those minority groups. Perhaps their subculture needs to change?

You've just made a very well hidden, but very very true point...
He was rather sneaky in how he made his point. :D

Please provide an example of a law that sets up quotas to bypass merit.

Be specific. Not just some general idea you have, but what exact statute.

Until you can do this you are simply burning strawmen.

Good luck.

Sorry, I was wrong about the "government sponsored" bit.
My attempted implication was that factoring race into university acceptance and scholarships is as equally absurd as the OP.

My attempted implication was that factoring race into university acceptance and scholarships is as equally absurd as the OP.

Universities do not use quotas either.

Hahahaha, sarcasm is so funny.

Not.

According to the FBI uniform crime statistics a large majority of the crime is committed by blacks and latinos.

false

In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.

or we could have, you know, more equal enforcement and prosecution...

Universities do not use quotas either.

Upon further research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California_Regents_v._Bakke), I see that this is correct.
But it still allows race to be factored in.
I think that the process should be colorblind.

This message is brought to you by the League of People Who Are Clueless About Affirmative Action.

Is race considered in quotas where merit is similar or the same between minority and white applicant?

EDIT: Seeing the posted case, isn't a system that applies race as a "plus factor" in handing out sentences analogous to the current precedent? Why shouldn't a minority recieve a lesser sentence for a crime on sole account of his race?

Um, Hispanics are disproportionately imprisoned too.

including for hispanic immigrants, who are disproportionate in the other direction entirely.

I think that the process should be colorblind.

Mindless colorblindness only protects racists - it obscures and fails to counteract the consequences of present and past racial discrimination.

Mindless colorblindness only protects racists - it obscures and fails to counteract the consequences of present and past racial discrimination.

Counteracting racism with racism is not something I can possibly agree with.

Counteracting racism with racism is not something I can possibly agree with.

Affirmative action is not racist.

Affirmative action is not racist.

Well, then I must have a flawed definition of AA.
How do you define it?

Well, then I must have a flawed definition of AA.
How do you define it?

"Affirmative action refers to concrete steps that are taken both to increase the representation of underrepresented and arguably underprivileged minorities and to redress the effects of past discrimination."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

The idea of this policy is that making sure to put discriminated minorities in positions of prestige and authority will eliminate discrimination both because it will counteract the prejudice of those who give out jobs, admit to universities, etc. and because it will demonstrate that members of those groups can accomplish great things if given the opportunity.
Am I missing something?
Placing someone into a position due to their race is discrimination.

"Affirmative action refers to concrete steps that are taken both to increase the representation of underrepresented and arguably underprivileged minorities and to redress the effects of past discrimination."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action

I don't think I've seen any programs to redress the effects of past discrimination against the Irish.

Any step taken to alter the state of things by using racial criteria is racism.

Any kind of income-based affirmative action I am totally ok with.

Placing someone into a position due to their race is discrimination.

Yes, it is. So it is any choice.

But it is not racist discrimination - which is what most people have in mind when they use the term.

Yes, it is. So it is any choice.

But it is not racist discrimination - which is what most people have in mind when they use the term.

It is discrimination based on race, is it not?
Well-intentioned racism is still racism.

I don't think I've seen any programs to redress the effects of past discrimination against the Irish.

What (present) effects?

Demonstrate them to me, and I will support affirmative action for Irish Americans.

Any step taken to alter the state of things by using racial criteria is racism.

Nonsense.

1. Members of groups presently suffering the effects of pervasive past and present racism should be the beneficiaries of affirmative action to counter those effects.
2. Blacks, Hispanics, and other groups are presently suffering the effects of pervasive past and present racism.
3. Therefore, Blacks, Hispanics, and other groups should be the beneficiaries of affirmative action to counter those effects.

Where's the racism?

Any kind of income-based affirmative action I am totally ok with.

Ah... but isn't that "classist"?

It is discrimination based on race, is it not?

"Based on race" only superficially.

The argument is not "Blacks are better. Therefore, Blacks should receive benefits."

The argument is "Blacks are suffering the effects of past and present discrimination, despite the fact that they are equal to everyone else. Therefore, the effects of discrimination should be countered to ensure genuine equality for all."

The first argument is racist. I fail to see how the second even comes close.

"Based on race" only superficially.

The argument is not "Blacks are better. Therefore, Blacks should receive benefits."

The argument is "Blacks are suffering the effects of past and present discrimination, despite the fact that they are equal to everyone else. Therefore, the effects of discrimination should be countered to ensure genuine equality for all."

The first argument is racist. I fail to see how the second even comes close.
Why not counteract individual cases of racism instead of throwing a blanket of differential treatment on an entire race?

Counteracting racism with racism is not something I can possibly agree with.

even pretending like you were using a sensible definition of racism here, what do you propose instead?

Seeing the posted case, isn't a system that applies race as a "plus factor" in handing out sentences analogous to the current precedent? Why shouldn't a minority recieve a lesser sentence for a crime on sole account of his race?

actually, they do deserve lesser sentences and it is sorta based on minority status (well, in addition to my standard line about abolishing the prison system). but specifically, we need to do so to bring them down to parity with average white sentences for the same or similar crimes.

What (present) effects?

Demonstrate them to me, and I will support affirmative action for Irish Americans.
The Irish have a widespread reputation as drunkards. Despite the "No Irish need apply" signs no longer existing, I'm fairly certain that the majority of the wealthy and powerful are still WASPs.

That really wasn't my point though. The Irish were also discriminated against, yet have received no reparations, and no programs to promote their success. Let us assume that there is no long-term effect from that. Why do we need to create programs to give aid to another ethnic group that also experienced discrimination? - and lets not pretend that blacks are the only people ever to be enslaved. Slavery has been around for a LONG time, and in a lot of places. A lot of the ancient economies only worked because of slaves.


1. Members of groups presently suffering the effects of pervasive past and present racism should be the beneficiaries of affirmative action to counter those effects.
2. Blacks, Hispanics, and other groups are presently suffering the effects of pervasive past and present racism.
3. Therefore, Blacks, Hispanics, and other groups should be the beneficiaries of affirmative action to counter those effects.

1. People presently suffering the effects of pervasive past and present racism should be the beneficiaries of affirmative action to counter those effects.
Sure, people currently suffering the effects of past and present racism should receive some help. Not everyone in those groups are. I went to school with some black kids whose families were better off than mine. Poverty is a better indicator of need than race.


Ah... but isn't that "classist"?

Yes, but that doesn't bother me. The wealth and education of a person's family is directly tied to their long-term success. Race isn't.

It does discriminate... against white people. I think the person best suited for the job should get it, be them white,black,Irish,Muslim, extra terrestrial.

If you are not the best choice then thats too bad...

Despite the "No Irish need apply" signs no longer existing
...
The Irish were also discriminated against

nina never really existed in any significant way anyways. irish immigrants to usia quickly dominated the workforce and then local politics. a single generation out, they had major players in national politics. if anything, they actively excluded african americans from employment.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_social_history/v036/36.2jensen.html

It does discriminate... against white people. I think the person best suited for the job should get it, be them white,black,Irish,Muslim, extra terrestrial.

If you are not the best choice then thats too bad...

and when you have several candidates who meet the requirements for whatever position - how should you decide between them?

actually, they do deserve lesser sentences and it is sorta based on minority status (well, in addition to my standard line about abolishing the prison system). but specifically, we need to do so to bring them down to parity with average white sentences for the same or similar crimes.

I do agree that the bias against minorities in the judicial system is appalling and needs to be rectified, but I do not see how stipulating lesser sentences on sole account of race could be just (less unjust) or practical.

and when you have several candidates who meet the requirements for whatever position - how should you decide between them?
Well, thats really quite simple.
white,black,Irish,Muslim, extra terrestrial
The Black guy would probably steal from you and be on crack all day, something you don't want employed in your workforce, the Irish would probably be unreliable as he would be drunk all day, the Muslim would may pose as a possible bio-hazard to the innocent infidels he works with, the extra terrestrial wont be able to speak 'Merican, and thus not be as reliable, though one could say the same for anyone with dark skin from South of the Border, but the Alien would probably be green too, and well, who likes those greenies, so that leaves us with Whitey, who will probably contribute well, work with a smile, speak your language, and not smell like used auto-rags.

So...yeah...it's really a no-brainer if you ask me.

As for the initial thought,quotas will not solve anything and will eventually make members of the "white" race feel discriminated against;however,I do belive that the legal American justice system and furthermore the entire system upon which US laws and basically everything is founded upon needs to be fixed because even though it is not intentionally racist or biased it is true that it was made for the "white" man and did not take into account too many other races.Frankly as a proud Mexican American,I see AA as a racist entity simply because it to is unintentionally racist or biased towards "black" people and "latinos/hispanics".We can't keep expecting everyone to say I'm sorry and for the system to make us all equal,we must act and make this a reality by admitting to ourselves that we too are racist or biased based on our own experiences and beliefs.:cool:

We can't keep expecting everyone to say I'm sorry and for the system to make us all equal,we must act and make this a reality by admitting to ourselves that we too are racist or biased based on our own experiences and beliefs.

so how, as a mexican american, does admitting that you might also be racist make equality a reality? how does that put a stop to the actual racist disparities that exist because of the racist policies of the past and the racist prejudices held by decision makers in the present?

The Irish were also discriminated against, yet have received no reparations, and no programs to promote their success. Let us assume that there is no long-term effect from that. Why do we need to create programs to give aid to another ethnic group that also experienced discrimination?

Because discrimination against Blacks has been more deep-seated, has had worse effects, and continues to have real and substantive consequences today.

Not all racism is of the same degree, or has the same effect.

Not everyone in those groups are.

No, but this is in the nature of public policy. There are always exceptions, and it is impossible to anticipate them all.

I went to school with some black kids whose families were better off than mine.

So?

Racism could have had a substantive negative effect on them without them being economically worse off than your family... there are other factors that go into economic class.

Poverty is a better indicator of need than race.

Let's say this is true.

What difference does it make? Affirmative action is not about satisfying "need" (though perhaps it in part falls under a broad category of programs aiming at such an objective)... it is about countering the effects of racism.

In order to justify it, we need not prove that race matters more than class... merely that race matters.

The wealth and education of a person's family is directly tied to their long-term success. Race isn't.

That is simply nonsense.

Why not counteract individual cases of racism

Because the elements are myriad and systemic, and cannot be so easily isolated.

Racism could have had a substantive negative effect on them without them being economically worse off than your family... there are other factors that go into economic class.


Please explain.

I'm not going to argue with your other points. I think at this point, it's just a matter of opinion. Do we need to give aid to a 'group' that's disadvantaged, or to 'people' that are disadvantaged. We've both stated our opinions.

The disproportionate number of racial minorities in prison is abhorrent.
We must implement a means of levying this injustice.
Therefore, I propose that the criminal justice system implement a system of quotas.
In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.How about just sending all the racist pigs to jail instead of giving them slaps on the wrist and pats on the back?

so how, as a mexican american, does admitting that you might also be racist make equality a reality? how does that put a stop to the actual racist disparities that exist because of the racist policies of the past and the racist prejudices held by decision makers in the present?

Bc A lot of ppl simply belive that ONLY white ppl are racist when we are all in fact racist once we admit this,we can admit that we should look and our own opinions and look to correct racist behavior with ourselves first,and then once we fix this problem we will see that ppl arent as racist as we make them out to be and are in fact more ignorant.It makez us look better as a ppl if we admit our problems rather than try to hide them as others have blaming it all on the white ppl

Please explain.

Race is not the only factor that determines a person's wealth.

Perhaps the person is talented, or knows how to play the system, or gets lucky, or works hard.

The point is that they are disadvantaged comparable to a white person with all these other factors controlled for.

I'm not going to argue with your other points. I think at this point, it's just a matter of opinion.

"Opinions" do not hover in a vacuum.

They have arguments behind them. Or at least they should.

Do we need to give aid to a 'group' that's disadvantaged, or to 'people' that are disadvantaged.

If you are part of a disadvantaged group, you are disadvantaged... at least almost always.

You may not be worse off than everyone else... but that's because there are OTHER disadvantaged groups. Not because you are NOT disadvantaged.

Me, I support action to combat both racial and class inequality. But I understand that neither can be folded into the other.

so how, as a mexican american, does admitting that you might also be racist make equality a reality? how does that put a stop to the actual racist disparities that exist because of the racist policies of the past and the racist prejudices held by decision makers in the present?

It makes us as a whole seem more reasonable and not just paranoid amd ignorant ppl who think that everything is against us and itz not fair.The system isnt fair,itz racist,but if we just say they're racist and admit nothing of ourselves then are we not being racist?.Idk.

The disproportionate number of racial minorities in prison is abhorrent.
We must implement a means of levying this injustice.
Therefore, I propose that the criminal justice system implement a system of quotas.
In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.

MTAE, is that you? You sound so much like him.

The disproportionate number of racial minorities in prison is abhorrent.
We must implement a means of levying this injustice.
Therefore, I propose that the criminal justice system implement a system of quotas.
In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.

What if they did harsher crimes?

Because the elements are myriad and systemic, and cannot be so easily isolated.

So... because it's easier to generalize?

-snip-

See OP edit.

-snip-
Ow...my eyes...

So... because it's easier to generalize?

No... because it's impossible to be specific.

Try it. Propose a course of action.

No... because it's impossible to be specific.

Try it. Propose a course of action.

Apply the spirit of the equal protection clause to universities?

Apply the spirit of the equal protection clause to universities?

Yeah, that's what everyone says they want.

What does it mean? Where's your practical solution?

Damnit, it helps to read the post before you respond to the poll doesn't it?

Generally speaking, I am in favour of affirmative action programs aimed at ameliorating obvious disparities in the workplace, in schooling, etc. The penal system, is a little different. Trying to analyze why there is such disparity in the prison system, can often be addressed by tackling the disparity in the workplace/schooling side of the equation. Punishments based on race is a bad idea, and let's be honest, is half the reason there is such disparity in the prison system to begin with.

We need to impose quotas in everything, including population control. There should be an equal amount of people from each race, otherwise they're underrepresented.

The disproportionate number of racial minorities in prison is abhorrent.
We must implement a means of levying this injustice.
Therefore, I propose that the criminal justice system implement a system of quotas.
In order to maintain a prison population of accurate representative population, minorities will receive lower prison terms, while caucasians will be sentenced more harshly.


EDIT:
To all latecomers/people too lazy to read the whole thread -
This was my opening move into an affirmative action debate.
The idea was that it is absurd to enforce racial quotas, positive or negative.
In the midgame, I learned that government-enforced racial quotas are illegal.
Universities are not allowed to have quotas, but they are allowed to take race into consideration, which I disagree with.

AH! *gasp* communism! I say still go with the option I chose in my prison population issue, I ICLy have every criminal killed and the property given to the vitims, then the bodies are used for being processed into fuel. Its the best way to go and its cheap too.

Yeah, that's what everyone says they want.

What does it mean? Where's your practical solution?

Don't make race a positive or a negative attribute, and eventually, racism will go away.
Not overnight, but this is one of the few aspects of human nature that I am optimistic about.

Don't make race a positive or a negative attribute, and eventually, racism will go away.

Believe it or not, problems do not solve themselves.

Wishing racism away will accomplish nothing.

Believe it or not, problems do not solve themselves.

Wishing racism away will accomplish nothing.

If all memory of racism in the first world were lost, and we started with a blank slate, do you believe it would rise again?

If all memory of racism in the first world were lost, and we started with a blank slate, do you believe it would rise again?

If you radically redistributed wealth, no.

If you radically redistributed wealth, no.

"Hey, there's a larger percentage people that look like me, and they hold a larger percentage of the wealth. Let's conspire to keep it that way."

?

Don't make race a positive or a negative attribute, and eventually, racism will go away.
Not overnight, but this is one of the few aspects of human nature that I am optimistic about.

Wasn't that France's official attitude for decades, prior to the riots last year?

That is just ridiculous! How is making unequal punishment promoting equality?!
And it is still racist towards white people! So many people forget that Caucasians are a race as well.

Plus people need to know the difference between racsism and fact. Like for instance if someone says 60% of Muslim males in the UK are unemployed, they would most likely be accused of being a racist when its a fact! In no way do I support racsism, I just hate all this uptight bullshit, its all so reactionary and hinders our society's development. I say the solution isn't getting rid of racsism (as long as it isn't violent/aggressive in anyway) its accepting, not taking a joke to seriously (to a point of course), and for everyone to stop being so uptight about race, because in the end being uptight about it is just fuels racism.

When you post things it makes me want to rent Bette Midler to sing you a song about heroes and wings and wind. But then I come to the conclusion that this would make anybody upset and question why they bother to live in a world where a lunatic like me would do such a thing.You're that bad of a singer?

"Hey, there's a larger percentage people that look like me, and they hold a larger percentage of the wealth. Let's conspire to keep it that way."

It has to do with degrees of exposure and class stereotypes.

And the simple tendency of human minds to justify privilege.

That is just ridiculous! How is making unequal punishment promoting equality?!

the punishments, they already be unequal

Frankly, making punishments for 'white color crime' harsher and lowering the penalties on 'street crime' would do the trick. This fact alone should tell y'all how racist American society is. Think about it for a moment.

Frankly, making punishments for 'white color crime' harsher and lowering the penalties on 'street crime' would do the trick. This fact alone should tell y'all how racist American society is. Think about it for a moment.

No, it shows no such thing. It merely shows that crimes that involve actual violence against person and property are treated more harshly than financial crimes.

No, it shows no such thing. It merely shows that crimes that involve actual violence against person and property

or, you know, drug possession and sale, vandalism, being black after dark, etc.

are treated more harshly than financial crimes.

No, it shows no such thing. It merely shows that crimes that involve actual violence against person and property are treated more harshly than financial crimes.

Um. Explain why "actual violence against property" should be penalized more harshly than financial crimes that may involve several thousand times as much property.

Um. Explain why "actual violence against property" should be penalized more harshly than financial crimes that may involve several thousand times as much property.

because spray paint is a weapon of mass destruction, while robbing thousands of people of decades of pension money is pretty well harmless

To implement a system in which government intervention, be it through quotas or the like, is used to help create a state of racial balance is a fundamentally flawed plan. First off, it is essentially reverse racism. However, it also fails to address the basic reasons why prisons have a higher rate of ethnic minorities serving longer sentences. It is not due to the fact that these groupings are naturally inclined towards crime and criminal activity, but rather because our failing system leads them to commit these acts of desperation. The failings of our pathetic social welfare systems, the increasing divide between rich and poor, and the overall oppressive and racist conditions in our overarching society are all closely reflected by the conditions within our prisons.

No, it shows no such thing. It merely shows that crimes that involve actual violence against person and property are treated more harshly than financial crimes.

:rolleyes: I am talking about the fact that not too many black people are even in a position to pull off a nice corporate heist and that black people are disproportionately imprisoned for the crimes which are associated with the poor. This points to the American convergence of race and class. This is a well documented result of institutionalized racism.

Now for the nonsense that you just posted: corporate crime isn't a crime against property? Ha! Just goes to prove my point. Rich motherfucker steals thousands' of people's pension funds and thats not a crime against 'property?':rolleyes:
Typical. The sort of theft that rich white people are best positioned to commit is treated as a lesser crime- even when it causes more damage than a spree of bank robberies.

It has to do with degrees of exposure and class stereotypes.

And the simple tendency of human minds to justify privilege.

But wouldn't that justification be applied on the scale of the individual in a capitalist society?

And if not, wouldn't the "us and them" be a class distinction?
Why would the correlation between race and wealth be significant in this situation?

If, for example, right-handed people owned a disproportionate amount of wealth, do you think that they would band together to keep the lefties and ambi's down?