NationStates Jolt Archive

Some allegedly ancient camel bones were found in Arizona, however I think it might actually be one of the Army's old camels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Camel_Corps) from some failed experiment to use thenm here. People so quickly make it seem like America had every animal Africa has now.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070428/ap_on_sc/prehistoric_camel)

PHOENIX - Workers digging at the future site of a Wal-Mart store in suburban Mesa have unearthed the bones of a prehistoric camel that's estimated to be about 10,000 years old.

Arizona State University geology museum curator Brad Archer hurried out to the site Friday when he got the news that the owner of a nursery was carefully excavating bones found at the bottom of a hole being dug for a new ornamental citrus tree.

"There's no question that this is a camel; these creatures walked the land here until about 8,000 years ago, when the same event that wiped out a great deal of mammal life took place," Archer told The Arizona Republic.

Wal-Mart officials and Greenfield Citrus Nursery owner John Babiarz have already agreed that the bones will go directly on display at ASU.

Archer said some of them may be placed on display very soon, but most will take several months "to get sorted out and stabilized."

"In my 15 years at ASU doing this work I can think of six or seven times when finds this important have been made," Archer said. "This is the first camel. Others have been horses, once a mammoth on Happy Valley Road. This sort of thing is extremely rare."

Did you even read your own fucking article? Unless the USCC existed 10,000 years ago, you are totally wrong.

Your stupidity astounds me.

you dont think they can tell the difference between an ancient camel and a modern one?

Some allegedly ancient camel bones were found in Arizona, however I think it might actually be one of the Army's old camels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Camel_Corps) from some failed experiment to use thenm here. People so quickly make it seem like America had every animal Africa has now.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070428/ap_on_sc/prehistoric_camel)

But the ancient Americas did have native camels (llamas are a close relative) as well as native horses. They, and a great many other species, went extinct shortly after the arrival of humans.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/northamerica/linked/hunters.html

http://www.discoverseaz.com/History/PaleoInd.html

"During the 100,000 years of the most recent Ice Age, while much of the Earth's water was locked up in the ice caps, the level of the oceans at times dropped by as much as 300 feet. At these times the Bering Strait became dry land, and animals migrated across a wide territory known as Beringia. Species that had evolved in the Old World were able to migrate east; these included mammoths, bison and early humans. Horses and camels, which had developed on the American continent, migrated west to Asia and survived there even after they became extinct in the Americas."

People so quickly make it seem like America had every animal Africa has now.

not every. but it did have close relatives of most of the megafauna.

What does a geology museum curator know about ancient camels?

But the ancient Americas did have native camels (llamas are a close relative) as well as native horses. They, and a great many other species, went extinct shortly after the arrival of humans.

in fact, there has recently been a push to start using the time before those extinctions as a reference for ecological restoration in north america.
american naturalist article on it from last fall (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/biology/teaching/biol3008/population%20ecology%20and%20conservation/donlanetalamnat06.pdf)

I'm pretty sure they can tell the difference between normal bones and fossilized bones.

in fact, there has recently been a push to start using the time before those extinctions as a reference for ecological restoration in north america.
american naturalist article on it from last fall (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/biology/teaching/biol3008/population%20ecology%20and%20conservation/donlanetalamnat06.pdf)

That Giant Wildlife Park thing is retarded, dangerous, illegal, and immoral in my opinion. Many poor Africans would lose their main source of income that actually gets to them and not a corrupt government.

I'm pretty sure they can tell the difference between normal bones and fossilized bones.

They weren't fossilized and I doubt anyone even thought of this. It's an obscure fact I found in some obscure fact book.

They weren't fossilized and I doubt anyone even thought of this. It's an obscure fact I found in some obscure fact book.

How do you know?

They weren't fossilized and I doubt anyone even thought of this. It's an obscure fact I found in some obscure fact book.
So bones last forever?
And you are saying you can, without seeing them, tell whether bones belong to the modern dromedary as opposed to an ancient extinct camel and can do so better than a museum curator?

People so quickly make it seem like America had every animal Africa has now.
Yeah, well there are these things called fossils which show us what creatures lived where when, and there are these places called tar pits where creatures' bodies get stuck and we find them centuries later.

That Giant Wildlife Park thing is retarded, dangerous, illegal, and immoral in my opinion. Many poor Africans would lose their main source of income that actually gets to them and not a corrupt government.

except the animals in question are all being driven to extinction in africa anyways, and the much better way to help africans is to immediately abolish subsidies to rich assholes that own all the farmland in the global north. which also would quickly open up land for ecological restoration...

and there are these places called tar pits where creatures' bodies get stuck and we find them centuries later.

i love la brea, that place is awesome

But the ancient Americas did have native camels (llamas are a close relative) as well as native horses. They, and a great many other species, went extinct shortly after the arrival of humans.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/northamerica/linked/hunters.html

http://www.discoverseaz.com/History/PaleoInd.html

"During the 100,000 years of the most recent Ice Age, while much of the Earth's water was locked up in the ice caps, the level of the oceans at times dropped by as much as 300 feet. At these times the Bering Strait became dry land, and animals migrated across a wide territory known as Beringia. Species that had evolved in the Old World were able to migrate east; these included mammoths, bison and early humans. Horses and camels, which had developed on the American continent, migrated west to Asia and survived there even after they became extinct in the Americas."

There might have been llamas, but they really don't look incredibly similar. I think the OP probably has it right.

There might have been llamas, but they really don't look incredibly similar. I think the OP probably has it right.

http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/flora/camel.html
http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/art/page14e.jpg

http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/flora/camel.html
http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/art/page14e.jpg

Right. Doesn't look like a llama, does it?

well it doesn't say how deep the thing was found but i reckon they can make a pretty good guess at the approximate age of the thing from what strata it was found it before cabon dating is used. thus, if the professional investigator says it is probably at least 8000 years old then he is no doubt correct. unless the US army made a habit of giving their camels full burials.

besides, as has already been said, the americas did used to have camels, so your last comment makes no sense.

There might have been llamas, but they really don't look incredibly similar. I think the OP probably has it right.

jst cuz they don't look exactly the same doesn't mean they aren't genetically similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelid

and for comparison:
http://perl.linuxmovies.org/pix/camel.707x555.jpg
http://animals.timduru.org/dirlist/lama/Photo156-Llama-Head_closeup.jpg

Sorry guys, it just seems a helluva lot more likely that this was an imported camel that for some reason was given a burial. Might it have not have been diseased? I just am not buying a hitherto-unknown variety of indigenous American camel. A northern-adapted llama I'd be willing to buy, but not a camel. And even though they are related animals, camels fundamentally just do not look like llamas.

Sorry guys, it just seems a helluva lot more likely that this was an imported camel that for some reason was given a burial. Might it have not have been diseased? I just am not buying a hitherto-unknown variety of indigenous American camel. A northern-adapted llama I'd be willing to buy, but not a camel. And even though they are related animals, camels fundamentally just do not look like llamas.
considering camelids originated in the americas i don't think it's at all unlikely really.

Sorry guys, it just seems a helluva lot more likely that this was an imported camel that for some reason was given a burial. Might it have not have been diseased? I just am not buying a hitherto-unknown variety of indigenous American camel. A northern-adapted llama I'd be willing to buy, but not a camel. And even though they are related animals, camels fundamentally just do not look like llamas.

Eh, I'm sure if it was only buried 6 ft underground they wouldn't be saying the thing is 10,000 years old.

And think 10,000 years ago Llamas were a pretty common sight in the Southwest, and they weren't drastically different from the ones found further south. So whatever this, it probably existed parallel with Llamas.

Right. Doesn't look like a llama, does it?

Exactly. That's because it's not a llama. It is a North American camel. Did you not read the link?

"The western camel had a very similar build to the living bactrian (two-humped) camel, but was slightly taller (standing seven feet at the shoulder) and may have lacked humps."

"Camels originated in North America about 45 million years ago. At about 2-3 million years ago, they migrated to Eurasia and Africa, moving in the opposite direction from the many other animals that migrated to North America."

I merely stated that camels were related to llamas. Not that llamas were all that existed in the Americas. Science has already shown that camels did indeed exist in North American in pre-historic times and went extinct shortly after the arrival of man.

Right. Doesn't look like a llama, does it?

no, it looks like an american camel. mainly because it is one.

They weren't fossilized and I doubt anyone even thought of this. It's an obscure fact I found in some obscure fact book.

It's not all that obscure. Most kids learn it in grade school. There was even a Disney movie about it. It was called "Hoomps" I think.

Edit. It's called "Hawmps!" http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1800075045/info

Let me be the first to say that this discovery obviously contradicts the so-called theory of Evolution, and proves that us true Christians were right all along about how life was created. If the camel bones were not fossilized, then camels could not have existed in the fictional 'Mesozoic Era', but instead came about after God willed the Earth into existence from nothing six thousand years ago.

I'm confident that further examination will prove the entire 'science' of paleontology to be a farce and bring more people closer to Christ.

Let me be the first to say that this discovery obviously contradicts the so-called theory of Evolution, and proves that us true Christians were right all along about how life was created. If the camel bones were not fossilized, then camels could not have existed in the fictional 'Mesozoic Era', but instead came about after God willed the Earth into existence from nothing six thousand years ago.

I'm confident that further examination will prove the entire 'science' of paleontology to be a farce and bring more people closer to Christ.

I hope to God that was a joke. Otherwise, it makes me wonder why people insist on NOT using the faculties God gave them in the first place.

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1980/2/80.02.07.x.html#c <-- Map III mentions native camels. So much for them not existing on North America.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/northamerica/linked/hunters.html

Let me be the first to say that this discovery obviously contradicts the so-called theory of Evolution, and proves that us true Christians were right all along about how life was created. If the camel bones were not fossilized, then camels could not have existed in the fictional 'Mesozoic Era', but instead came about after God willed the Earth into existence from nothing six thousand years ago.

I'm confident that further examination will prove the entire 'science' of paleontology to be a farce and bring more people closer to Christ.

Praise the Lord! You are preaching the Gospel Truth brotha! Hayman!

Praise the Lord! You are preaching the Gospel Truth brotha! Hayman!

So quote me the chapter and verse in any of the Gospels where it says "ancient camels did not exist in North America."

in fact, there has recently been a push to start using the time before those extinctions as a reference for ecological restoration in north america.
american naturalist article on it from last fall (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/biology/teaching/biol3008/population%20ecology%20and%20conservation/donlanetalamnat06.pdf)

I remember hearing about that on NPR last year. I'm not a big fan of the idea. We have more than enough trouble with deer on our farm (destructive bastards), I can't imagine having to deal with elephants. However, I wouldn't be opposed to reintroducing some predator species to control the exploding deer populations.

So quote me the chapter and verse in any of the Gospels where it says "ancient camels did not exist in North America."

In the book of Sarcastic, chapter 23, verse 21, right after the fact that God hates fags, and that universe revolves around earth

I remember hearing about that on NPR last year. I'm not a big fan of the idea. We have more than enough trouble with deer on our farm (destructive bastards), I can't imagine having to deal with elephants. However, I wouldn't be opposed to reintroducing some predator species to control the exploding deer populations.

Like for instance...human hunters? :p

In the book of Sarcastic, chapter 23, verse 21, right after the fact that God hates fags, and that universe revolves around earth

In other words, it's in the Apocrypha? :D

Like for instance...human hunters? :p

We have a guy who helps out on the farm in exchange or exclusive hunting privileges on our property. However, the state only allows him to shoot 4 a month. We have almost 1000 deer. Most of the does have twins now days (lots of food for them on a farm). They breed faster than we can get rid of them. Some wolves or a few jaguars could be very helpful.

I remember hearing about that on NPR last year. I'm not a big fan of the idea. We have more than enough trouble with deer on our farm (destructive bastards), I can't imagine having to deal with elephants. However, I wouldn't be opposed to reintroducing some predator species to control the exploding deer populations.

Those predators would eat through the deer and start into domestic herds before too long. Megafauna predators eat more than your average predator, you know.

On a more general note, that whole plan to reintroduce megafauna is 10,000 years too late. It'd be like Jurassic Park in the middle of the U.S., a completely different environment to support those species.

Those predators would eat through the deer and start into domestic herds before too long. Megafauna predators eat more than your average predator, you know.

On a more general note, that whole plan to reintroduce megafauna is 10,000 years too late. It'd be like Jurassic Park in the middle of the U.S., a completely different environment to support those species.

No, no megafauna. Just a few wolves or mid sized wild cats. Like what was here only 200 years ago.

I agree. The climate is very different now. And changing.

Those predators would eat through the deer and start into domestic herds before too long. Megafauna predators eat more than your average predator, you know.

On a more general note, that whole plan to reintroduce megafauna is 10,000 years too late. It'd be like Jurassic Park in the middle of the U.S., a completely different environment to support those species.

Would they eat our lawyers like in JP? If so, i am up for that! :D

No, no megafauna. Just a few wolves or mid sized wild cats. Like what was here only 200 years ago.

I agree. The climate is very different now. And changing.

Ah, that's a bit more sensible then.

Yeah, the modern predator population could do with a boost.

Would they eat our lawyers like in JP? If so, i am up for that! :D

I'm sure a saber-tooth wouldn't turn down a lone lawyer or two, but an entire legal team might be too intimidating to hunt.:p

We have a guy who helps out on the farm in exchange or exclusive hunting privileges on our property. However, the state only allows him to shoot 4 a month. We have almost 1000 deer. Most of the does have twins now days (lots of food for them on a farm). They breed faster than we can get rid of them. Some wolves or a few jaguars could be very helpful.

I see your from Missouri. A few years ago we had a mountain lion on our farm. But every "hunter" wanted the ego trip of killing it. Haven't seen it for a couple years so I suppose someone got their macho filled.

I see your from Missouri. A few years ago we had a mountain lion on our farm. But every "hunter" wanted the ego trip of killing it. Haven't seen it for a couple years so I suppose someone got their macho filled.

Not really from MO. I recently moved in with my partner who lives here.

There in lies the problem. If they would just leave the predators alone, there wouldn't be a deer problem. Too many "hunters" let their hormones call the shots.

I hope to God that was a joke. Otherwise, it makes me wonder why people insist on NOT using the faculties God gave them in the first place.

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1980/2/80.02.07.x.html#c <-- Map III mentions native camels. So much for them not existing on North America.

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/northamerica/linked/hunters.html

All lies, perpetuated by the atheistic liberal elite. You can tell because both of those websites have '.edu' extensions.

All lies, perpetuated by the atheistic liberal elite. You can tell because both of those websites have '.edu' extensions.

Indeed, I wish we had .bible websites so that 90% of the debates on these boards could be solved quickly and easily.

I remember hearing about that on NPR last year. I'm not a big fan of the idea. We have more than enough trouble with deer on our farm (destructive bastards), I can't imagine having to deal with elephants. However, I wouldn't be opposed to reintroducing some predator species to control the exploding deer populations.

well, the idea is to restore areas of the interior where the population is crashing anyway, and fence those in.

On a more general note, that whole plan to reintroduce megafauna is 10,000 years too late. It'd be like Jurassic Park in the middle of the U.S., a completely different environment to support those species.

there hasn't been that much evolution since then, and the environment is essentially just waiting for the keystone megafauna to return. i mean, just look at what happened when horses came back after being absent for all that time. and the pronghorn are still built to outrun cheetahs. nothing has changed all that much.

Some allegedly ancient camel bones were found in Arizona, however I think it might actually be one of the Army's old camels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Camel_Corps) from some failed experiment to use thenm here. People so quickly make it seem like America had every animal Africa has now.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070428/ap_on_sc/prehistoric_camel)

Camels originated in the Americas. Learn some history......

"Camels originated in North America when the land masses were still joined"
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/X6528E/X6528E01.htm