NationStates Jolt Archive

High school senior Allen Lee sat down with his creative writing class on Monday and penned an essay that so disturbed his teacher, school administrators and police that he was charged with disorderly conduct.

"I understand what happened recently at Virginia Tech," said the teen's father, Albert Lee, referring to last week's massacre of 32 students by gunman Seung-Hui Cho. "I understand the situation."

But he added: "I don't see how somebody can get charged by writing in their homework. The teacher asked them to express themselves, and he followed instructions."

Allen Lee, an 18-year-old straight-A student at Cary-Grove High School, was arrested Tuesday near his home and charged with disorderly conduct for an essay police described as violently disturbing but not directed toward any specific person or location.

The youth's father said his son was not suspended or expelled but was forced to attend classes elsewhere for now.

Today, Cary-Grove students rallied behind the arrested teen by organizing a petition drive to let him back in their school. They posted on walls quotes from the English teacher in which she had encouraged students to express their emotions through writing.

"I'm not going to lie. I signed the petition," said senior James Gitzinger. "But I can understand where the administration is coming from. I think I would react the same way if I was a teacher."

Cary Police Chief Ron Delelio said the charge was appropriate even though the essay was not published or posted for public viewing.

Disorderly conduct, which carries a penalty of 30 days in jail and a $1,500 fine, is filed for pranks such as pulling a fire alarm or dialing 911. But it can also apply when someone's writings can disturb an individual, Delelio said.

"The teacher was alarmed and disturbed by the content," he said.

But a civil rights advocate said the teacher's reaction to an essay shouldn't make it a crime.

"One of the elements is that some sort of disorder or disruption is created," said Ed Yohnka, a spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois. "When something is done in private—when a paper is handed in to a teacher—there isn't a disruption."

The "key outcomes" this month for the Creative English class was for students to identify and utilize poetic conventions to communicate ideas and emotions. With that in mind, teachers reminded students that if they read something that posed a threat to self or others, the school could take action, said High School District 155 Supt. Jill Hawk.

The English teacher read the essay and reported it to a supervisor and the principal. A round-table discussion with district officials conveyed, with lively debate, and they decided to report it to the police.

"Our staff is very familiar with adolescent behavior. We're very well versed with types of creativity put into writing. We know the standards of adolescent behavior that are acceptable and that there is a range," Hawk said.

"There can certainly be writing that conveys concern for us even though it does not name names location or date," he said.

The charge against Lee comes as schools across the country wrestle with how to react in the wake of the shootings at the Virginia Tech campus at Blacksburg, Va.

Bomb threats at high schools in Schaumburg and Country Club Hills have caused evacuations, and extra police were on duty at a Palos Hills high school this week because of a threatening note found in the bathroom of a McDonald's restaurant a half-mile away.

Experts say the charge against Lee is troubling because it was over an essay that even police say contained no direct threats against anyone at the school. However, Virginia Tech's actions toward Cho came under heavy scrutiny after the killings because of the "disturbing" plays and essays teachers say he had written for classes.

Simmie Baer, an attorney with the Children and Family Justice Center at Northwestern University, called the Cary incident an example of zero-tolerance policies gone awry. Children, she said, are not as sophisticated as adults and often show emotion through writing or pictures, which is what teachers should want because it is a safe outlet.

Once again, teachers are too obsessed with maintaining the illusion kids are safe to do the rational thing. Come on, it's a violent piece of writing. Plenty of books are.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070425essay,1,696682.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Once again, teachers are too obsessed with maintaining the illusion kids are safe to do the rational thing. Come on, it's a violent piece of writing. Plenty of books are.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070425essay,1,696682.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Yeah, but he looks just like the Virginia Tech shooter

I'd like to see a young Stephen King, Wes Craven, or Anne Rice is today's schools...

What is the problem? Students rights are trampled all the time.

US schools involve the police far too often. I remember how shocked I was when I first found out that (at least some) US schools and universities have their own dedicated police officers who are armed with tazers.

And as usual the UK appears to be following suit... with some kid being told his hop-skotch board constituted graffiti :rolleyes:

Though considering we don't know just how violent and disturbing the piece of writing is, then the school teacher could well be justified in contacting someone in authority... though someone belonging to the medical profession might have been more appropriate.

That is utterly disgusting. I don't really think there's anything else to say. Oh, other than the fact I'd like to read the essay in question.

And many people wonder why I so despise many of societies aspects. When I was 15 years old someone in my class wrote a story about killing students in his class... it earned an A+ and was read aloud to all of the teacher's students to show them an example of good creative writing. It named names, had dates, and even a time in which the student finally decided to go through with his actions, it was written in the first person from the shooters point of view, and the author was the shooter, his victims real people he knew.
It earned an A+ was entered in a district wide competition and PUBLISHED in the shool newspaper and also in the schools yearly book of great creative writings entitled "Written In Ink" I am not making any of this shit up.
The school I went to was in a highly conservative rural neighborhood in BFE Pennsylvania...
Some people just need to get their god damned heads out of thier mother fucking asses and see the whole fucking picture!

Well if writing something that disturbs someone is considered disorderly conduct, what about disturbing speech? Can We perhaps petition to have the Bush Administration as a whole charged with it?

And yet another NSG thread gets contaminated with a drive-by anti-Bush post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Well done. :rolleyes:

Well if writing something that disturbs someone is considered disorderly conduct, what about disturbing speech? Can We perhaps petition to have the Bush Administration as a whole charged with it?

I didn't know writing something can be a crime. I thought we had something called a Constitution and another thing called the Bill of Rights.

I didn't know writing something can be a crime. I thought we had something called a Constitution and another thing called the Bill of Rights.

In case you didn't notice, it does not apply to people under 18.

That is utterly disgusting. I don't really think there's anything else to say. Oh, other than the fact I'd like to read the essay in question.

Seconded on all counts.

Also, I hate the chicago tribune for wanting me to sign in.

And yet another NSG thread gets contaminated with a drive-by anti-Bush post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Well done. :rolleyes:

Is it drive-by if I stay?

Besides, I am disturbed by much of what the Bush administration says. The article says that writing something disturbing and not making it public is cause for a disorderly conduct charge. So anyone saying something disturbing publically should carry even more weight. Just as an earilier poster was talking about horror writers. Shouldn't they all be in jail and paying fines also?

BTW child, If someone slaps you on the back when you roll your eyes they can stay like that forever!

You know what disturbs me? Midgets.

even the sexy ones? :fluffle:

Well if writing something that disturbs someone is considered disorderly conduct, what about disturbing speech? Can We perhaps petition to have the Bush Administration as a whole charged with it?

You know what disturbs me? Midgets.

The "key outcomes" this month for the Creative English class was for students to identify and utilize poetic conventions to communicate ideas and emotions. With that in mind, teachers reminded students that if they read something that posed a threat to self or others, the school could take action, said High School District 155 Supt. Jill Hawk.

ok, arrested is too far, but psyche evaluation to start.

after all, if the students were warned and he still did it... then he did it with full knowledge of what will happen.

of course, they didn't say what he wrote so it's all speculation anyway.

He is 18 and seeing as how this is creative writing and he was a straight A student and not a loner etc, I do not think there was anything to fear here. I understand from the admin's side but really, unless there were other signs of duress, they should have let it slide.

:sniper: ok i am going to shut up while i take my foot out of my mouth

In case you didn't notice, it does not apply to people under 18.

Allen Lee, an 18-year-old straight-A student at Cary-Grove High School, was arrested Tuesday near his home and charged with disorderly conduct for an essay police described as violently disturbing but not directed toward any specific person or location.

He is 18 and seeing as how this is creative writing and he was a straight A student and not a loner etc, I do not think there was anything to fear here. I understand from the admin's side but really, unless there were other signs of duress, they should have let it slide.

Great, now school admins are going to expel anyone that even remotely fits the profile of the VT killer without any intermediate investigation until people get tired of this bullshit and become desensitized and force it to go back to the way it was. At no point in time will anyone think to investigate things before reacting or not reacting.

was arrested Tuesday near his home and charged with disorderly conduct for an essay police described as violently disturbing but not directed toward any specific person or location.
[...]
Cary Police Chief Ron Delelio said the charge was appropriate even though the essay was not published or posted for public viewing.

Disorderly conduct, which carries a penalty of 30 days in jail and a $1,500 fine, is filed for pranks such as pulling a fire alarm or dialing 911. But it can also apply when someone's writings can disturb an individual, Delelio said.

My phonecall would be to the ACLU. They would be falling over themselves to get involved in this. Kid is arrested for writing a nondescript essay that is supposedly disturbing to some 26 year old teacher with a liberal arts degree (all assumptions deduced from job, reaction, and comparable knowledge) and charged with disorderly conduct, which he can supposedly be charged with for writing a paper? I'd have their asses for false arrest.

What is the problem? Students rights are trampled all the time.maybe men should have all their adult rights by 15 or 16..

what do you all think?
all genders included.. of course

Yeah, but he looks just like the Virginia Tech shooter funny eyes?yellow?crazy?good student?

US schools involve the police far too often. I remember how shocked I was when I first found out that (at least some) US schools and universities have their own dedicated police officers who are armed with tazers.

I'm Canadian and my university has a campus police. On the other hand, that could be because the University is huge. I don't know if they are armed or not. The probably just enforce parking.

And yet another NSG thread gets contaminated with a drive-by anti-Bush post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Well done. :rolleyes:Nothing to do with it? George jr's been threatening to gun down thousands of people. Again. Its a cry for help:p

Great, now school admins are going to expel anyone that even remotely fits the profile of the VT killer without any intermediate investigation until people get tired of this bullshit and become desensitized and force it to go back to the way it was. At no point in time will anyone think to investigate things before reacting or not reacting.

That would be half the engineering departments at most of the universities in the US - antisocial, dweeb, skinny, pasty looking Asian guys with dark crewcut hair and glasses...

In case you didn't notice, it does not apply to people under 18.

Wrong. It does.

Um...I don't really understand the controversy surrounding this story. What particularly stands out in my mind is the fact that the student in question actually made a direct reference to school-related violence in his essay:
A second disorderly count accuses Lee of alarming first-year teacher Nora Capron by writing that "as a teacher, don't be surprised on [sic] inspiring the first CG shooting,'' an apparent reference to Cary-Grove High.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/360827,CST-NWS-essay27.article

Even if the Virginia Tech massacre hadn't just occurred, with that little aforementioned tidbit above, the school had every right to be concerned about the safety of their pupils and their staff. Of course I believe that teachers should have an open mind when it comes to Creative Writing courses, but when a student makes a comment about school-related violence, he or she has crossed the line. I say that authorities were well within their ethical boundaries to arrest the student.

Um...I don't really understand the controversy surrounding this story. What particularly stands out in my mind is the fact that the student in question actually made a direct reference to school-related violence in his essay:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/360827,CST-NWS-essay27.article

Even if the Virginia Tech massacre hadn't just occurred, with that little aforementioned tidbit above, the school had every right to be concerned about the safety of their pupils and their staff. Of course I believe that teachers should have an open mind when it comes to Creative Writing courses, but when a student makes a comment about school-related violence, he or she has crossed the line. I say that authorities were well within their ethical boundaries to arrest the student.

Just as a note, in stuff like this, there is normally an investigation before arrests are made. In short, the student is not to be arrested unless it can be demonstrated that said student poses a threat.

Land of Freedom strikes again.

Just as a note, in stuff like this, there is normally an investigation before arrests are made. In short, the student is not to be arrested unless it can be demonstrated that said student poses a threat.

I would call the quoted passage as enough proof that the student was a threat. Many potential killers have clean records, have never harmed anyone before, and can indeed even have friends and appear normal. The very fact that he wrote such a thing is a warning sign and not something to be taken lightly, even if in all other areas of his life the kid seemed harmless.

I would call the quoted passage as enough proof that the student was a threat. Many potential killers have clean records, have never harmed anyone before, and can indeed even have friends and appear normal. The very fact that he wrote such a thing is a warning sign and not something to be taken lightly, even if in all other areas of his life the kid seemed harmless.

That's not even remotely close to what is needed. An actual statement, such as "I am going to kill such and such" would be enough, and even then there would have to be an investigation to determine if it was an actual threat, and not an off-color joke. Saying he had a dream in which he shot people? That isn't even enough to warrant having an investigation.

I would call the quoted passage as enough proof that the student was a threat. Many potential killers have clean records, have never harmed anyone before, and can indeed even have friends and appear normal. The very fact that he wrote such a thing is a warning sign and not something to be taken lightly, even if in all other areas of his life the kid seemed harmless.
Unless the whole thing is released, they are overreacting. There was no investigation period, it was straight kick out of school and get arrested. Despite what you and school admins think, there is a very obvious and achievable middle ground. From what they released, the teacher's assignment flat out said "write whatever comes to your mind, don't censor yourself" and then he wrote something patently absurd and was arrested for it.

I would call the quoted passage as enough proof that the student was a threat.
You mean the quoted minimalist excerpt from an unknown paragraph.

Land of Freedom strikes again.

Oh, come on. The UK has security cameras everywhere and debates laws on whether or not muslim woman should be allowed to wear their burkhas. You can hardly take the high moral ground here.

That's not even remotely close to what is needed. An actual statement, such as "I am going to kill such and such" would be enough...
Again, I redirect you:
...don't be surprised on [sic] inspiring the first CG shooting...
If that's not to tantamount to threatening violence, then I don't know what is.
...and even then there would have to be an investigation to determine if it was an actual threat, and not an off-color joke. Saying he had a dream in which he shot people? That isn't even enough to warrant having an investigation.
Except, he said more than just that he shot people in a dream.
You mean the quoted minimalist excerpt from an unknown paragraph.
Oh, please. Even if he had written that he was joking immediately before or after that sentence, that doesn't excuse writing such a thing, and that's no cause for anyone to breathe a sigh of relief. "Oh, he was just joking! I guess I'll just disregard the fact that he just casually referenced a plan to commit violence and just hope that he actually was kidding." That one sentence was threatening -- anything written around it cannot change that.

Essay (http://media1.suntimes.com/nixoncds/image/full_essay_v2.pdf_20070427_16_09_06_40.imageContent)
It's not even readable. Maybe someone can read it for me and tell me what it says?

Again, I redirect you:

If that's not to tantamount to threatening violence, then I don't know what is.

Except, he said more than just that he shot people in a dream.

Oh, please. Even if he had written that he was joking immediately before or after that sentence, that doesn't excuse writing such a thing, and that's no cause for anyone to breathe a sigh of relief. "Oh, he was just joking! I guess I'll just disregard the fact that he just casually referenced a plan to commit violence and just hope that he actually was kidding." That one sentence was threatening -- anything written around it cannot change that.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EG16VXCWL._SS500_.jpg

I demand this man be sent to prison!

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EG16VXCWL._SS500_.jpg

I demand this man be sent to prison!

Yeah, because Stephen King wrote that story in a high school Creative Writing class, and in it, specifically addressed his teacher in reference to her causing an act of school violence to occur.

Great comparison. You really nailed that one.

You know what disturbs me? Midgets.

No wonder you don't like me. (is 5 feet tall)

Oh, come on. The UK has security cameras everywhere and debates laws on whether or not muslim woman should be allowed to wear their burkhas. You can hardly take the high moral ground here.

I agree that the UK is pretty sucky at the moment, and people here take the coward's attitude to law enforcement, but it does seem that we're not quite as bad for overreacting and wanting to censor anyone who deviates from the norm.

Besides, we don't try to parade ourselves as some kind of paragon of freedom.

I agree that the UK is pretty sucky at the moment, and people here take the coward's attitude to law enforcement, but it does seem that we're not quite as bad for overreacting and wanting to censor anyone who deviates from the norm.

Besides, we don't try to parade ourselves as some kind of paragon of freedom.

Give me a break. The fact that this instance where a student was arrested for, in my mind, justifiable reasons is being met with trepidation shows that Americans balk at the idea of censorship. Meanwhile, Europe is chock full of laws banning Mein Kampf, and proposals and laws like this one (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4075442.stm). None of those things would occur in the US. Get off your high horse.

Oh, please. Even if he had written that he was joking immediately before or after that sentence, that doesn't excuse writing such a thing, and that's no cause for anyone to breathe a sigh of relief. "Oh, he was just joking! I guess I'll just disregard the fact that he just casually referenced a plan to commit violence and just hope that he actually was kidding." That one sentence was threatening -- anything written around it cannot change that.
You have no idea what he wrote.

Yeah, because Stephen King wrote that story in a high school Creative Writing class, and in it, specifically addressed his teacher in reference to her causing an act of school violence to occur.
Except he did write horror stories while in school.

Give me a break. The fact that this instance where a student was arrested for, in my mind, justifiable reasons is being met with trepidation shows that Americans balk at the idea of censorship. Meanwhile, Europe is chock full of laws banning Mein Kampf, and proposals and laws like this one (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4075442.stm). None of those things would occur in the US. Get off your high horse.

Europe isn't a country, genius. Besides, whether or not the UK sucks doesn't change the fact that America is delusional about how great it is.

Get off your high horse.

:rolleyes:
Agreeing that England has free speech issues of its own but pointing out that the US is no paragon of freedom isn't a 'high horse.' Actually the fact that it takes something like WWII and the Nazi holocaust to get a single book banned in Europe and a massacre of 32 may well bring about the persecution of an entire realm of speech in the US is arguably indicative that it is you who would be well advised to 'dismount.':rolleyes:

I read a very disturbing play in high school. It contained a lot of violence, teen sex, murder, and suicide. Romeo and Juliet, by William Shakespeare

From what little I could read of the essay, it does present a case that could be misconstrued as threatening violence, especially as he questions the teacher's capabilities as an educator and such before going on to saying that she could inspire a shooter. He does not expressly state he would be the shooter, however. The violent imagery noted within the text -- stabbing, necrophilia, etc. -- would be red flags in the present hysterical environment, and on the whole the essay is a rambling, stream of consciousness diatribe against people ("A person is smart, but people are dumb selfish animals"), which might also cause worry.

That written, the police behaved heavy-handedly by arresting him rather than simply talking with him. Likewise, the school should have discussed this with the student and the student's parents instead of just contacting the police. Steps have to be followed, but both the police and the school leaped over a few in this instance.

I read a very disturbing play in high school. It contained a lot of violence, teen sex, murder, and suicide. Romeo and Juliet, by William Shakespeare
Let's not forget every other Shakespeare play as well.

From what little I could read of the essay, it does present a case that could be misconstrued as threatening violence, especially as he questions the teacher's capabilities as an educator and such before going on to saying that she could inspire a shooter. He does not expressly state he would be the shooter, however. The violent imagery noted within the text -- stabbing, necrophilia, etc. -- would be red flags in the present hysterical environment, and on the whole the essay is a rambling, stream of consciousness diatribe against people ("A person is smart, but people are dumb selfish animals"), which might also cause worry.

That written, the police behaved heavy-handedly by arresting him rather than simply talking with him. Likewise, the school should have discussed this with the student and the student's parents instead of just contacting the police. Steps have to be followed, but both the police and the school leaped over a few in this instance.

Once again, we don't know what it said.

I think it is worth lookng at the assignment he was given. He was specifically told to not self-censor, to just write stream of consciousness type stuff, that if it was coherent, that he probably didn't "loosen up enough". The whole point of the essay assignment was to get the students to write whatever came to their minds no matter what it was, to bypass the self-censorship that tells them what they can and can't write. With all that mention of censorship, it is no surprising that the first thing that comes to mind is the sort of stuff that would be self-censored by a student who was not really willing to "loosen up" completely.

If this assignment was given in the immediate aftermath of the Virginia Tech shootings, that's another reason why such a topic would come to a student's mind.

This assignment, if it were carried out as instructed, was almost guaranteed to generate an incoherent rambling essay that would sound like the work of a crazy person. The repeated references to censorship almost guarantee that something of interest to censors would come to mind and then be written into the essay by a student diligent enough to follow the instructions precisely.

The lesson to be learned from this is that if you are ever given an assignment like this, you should refuse to do it. Sure, practice this sort of stream of consciousness writing in private. Write anything. If it's offensive and you don't like what you wrote, burn the paper. But don't do something like that in a school class and hand it in, even if they tell you to. You can either openly refuse or you can just write some nonsense and tell them that's what came to mind.

Legally it seems kind of grey. Clearly the student doesn't have unlimited free speech in a set essay, and can't for instance threaten or abuse the teacher marking it. But he might have done that in a subtle way (A student) and we just won't know unless we can read the text.

There should be some consideration of privacy here. In this and similar cases, I find it very concerning that school work is treated as though it's a handbill the student has deliberately spread around, when in fact it's a process of practice, a really quite personal step in their own education. If they make a mistake, you mark them down and explain what they did wrong ... not call the ffs cops!

I think it is worth lookng at the assignment he was given. He was specifically told to not self-censor, to just write stream of consciousness type stuff, that if it was coherent, that he probably didn't "loosen up enough". The whole point of the essay assignment was to get the students to write whatever came to their minds no matter what it was, to bypass the self-censorship that tells them what they can and can't write. With all that mention of censorship, it is no surprising that the first thing that comes to mind is the sort of stuff that would be self-censored by a student who was not really willing to "loosen up" completely.

If this assignment was given in the immediate aftermath of the Virginia Tech shootings, that's another reason why such a topic would come to a student's mind.

This assignment, if it were carried out as instructed, was almost guaranteed to generate an incoherent rambling essay that would sound like the work of a crazy person. The repeated references to censorship almost guarantee that something of interest to censors would come to mind and then be written into the essay by a student diligent enough to follow the instructions precisely.

The lesson to be learned from this is that if you are ever given an assignment like this, you should refuse to do it. Sure, practice this sort of stream of consciousness writing in private. Write anything. If it's offensive and you don't like what you wrote, burn the paper. But don't do something like that in a school class and hand it in, even if they tell you to. You can either openly refuse or you can just write some nonsense and tell them that's what came to mind.

If you tell a creative writing class not to self-censor then toss them in the hold when they write a single piece the dumbass with a BLA is disturbed by, you might as well just tell them you are baiting them for the police. It's like a pedophile trap.

one thing people are forgetting is that the assignment isn't "creative writing" but "Free Writing."

Free writing is to write whatever comes to mind when it comes to mind.

Technically isn't creative writing but free association since you're not creating anything. just letting the thoughts flow from mind to paper.

So comparing it to Stephen King really isn't correct.

And, as I said earlier, neither is arrest.

*snip*

This assignment, if it were carried out as instructed, was almost guaranteed to generate an incoherent rambling essay that would sound like the work of a crazy person. The repeated references to censorship almost guarantee that something of interest to censors would come to mind and then be written into the essay by a student diligent enough to follow the instructions precisely.

*snip*
Yeah, it's like "let a thousand flowers bloom" isn't it?

You double-posted, btw. Usually people delete the second copy. :)

what I deciphered so far. still working on it, so...

Essay:
Blood sex and booze. Super drugs drugs are fun. Stab, stab, stab, stab stab s t a b poke. "So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two p90's and started shooting everyone, then had sex with the dead bodies, well not really, but it would be funny if I did." Umm yeah, what to write about... I'm leaving to join the Marines and I really don't give a fuck about my...

gotta run now, but still working on deciphering the essay... I wonder if any of the teachers here have a better chance....

Europe isn't a country, genius. Besides, whether or not the UK sucks doesn't change the fact that America is delusional about how great it is.

Or that you're so obsessed about it that you can't pass up the chance to slam 300 million people as if they are all one hive-mind?

Puh-leease.


I can completely understand why the school was concerned -- why there was a meeting, and why the police were called, although I would have hoped that the parents, student and a school psychologist would have been involved before calling the police.

It was the police who determined that an arrest could be made and that a crime was committed. In other words, they were asked if this was, in their professional opinion, something to be concerned about; obviously, it was.

Given that the complaints in the Columbine shooting and the VA Tech shootings were, "These kids wrote disturbing fantasies about murdering people and no one ever did anything about it," the reason why this happened should be readily apparent. No school wants the negative publicity, public firings, and lawsuits that would follow if it WEREN'T rigorously followed up and this turned out to be a tragedy in the making.

The teacher should also have planned the assignment better, and the student should have taken the school at its word when presented with the statement that anything written that could be considered a danger to oneself or others would have consequences.

You have no idea what he wrote.
Yeah, I do. The sentence where he referenced an attack on the school was released to the public. I've already covered this, but you still seem to think that we need to read his entire paper to understand this reference. We don't. That sentence in and of itself is a problem; as I've already said, nothing he wrote in addition to it can change that.
Except he did write horror stories while in school.
Wow.
Europe isn't a country, genius. Besides, whether or not the UK sucks doesn't change the fact that America is delusional about how great it is.
No shit, Sherlock. I referred to Europe in that post due to the fact that Europeans in general seem to have a superiority complex when it comes to their allowance of freedom in comparison to the "evil tyranny" of the United States. America's "delusional" tendencies have nothing to do with the argument that the US is some evil, Nazi-esque, censoring regime. We're not. In fact, when it comes to free speech, we're a hell of lot better than Europe. You can justifiably attack the US on a lot of things, but when you do so incorrectly, I'm gonna call you out on it.
Agreeing that England has free speech issues of its own but pointing out that the US is no paragon of freedom isn't a 'high horse.'
No, but what he actually said is.
..but it does seem that we're not quite as bad for overreacting and wanting to censor anyone who deviates from the norm.
His initial comment was typical anti-US, European elitism, and after being called out on his hypocrisy, he had to admit that the UK has its own problems. However, he tried to make it out like the US is still somehow worse when it comes to censorship -- it's not.

Actually the fact that it takes something like WWII and the Nazi holocaust to get a single book banned in Europe and a massacre of 32 may well bring about the persecution of an entire realm of speech in the US is arguably indicative that it is you who would be well advised to 'dismount.'
Yeah, because every horror author in the country is being locked away in a camp right now. :rolleyes: This one instance, where a student blatantly made a reference to school-related violence, one that could easily be seen as a threat, does not constitute the "persecution of an entire realm of speech in the US." That's just moronic.

As for the actual topic of this thread: if the student had just written a graphic story, then arrest would not have been warranted. However, that was not the whole story, as I've mentioned plenty of times, yet many mindless, ACLU-loving drones seem to be completely unable to comprehend my point in this regard.

Yeah, I do. The sentence where he referenced an attack on the school was released to the public.
A sentence out of what? A couple pages? A couple paragraphs? A sentence is nothing. If I wrote "and there was a cat there too.." would you be able to deduce what my paper was about?

as I've already said, nothing he wrote in addition to it can change that.
Then you admit to being a close-minded bigot. The VT killer had a notable history of this kind of thing, this kid was arrested over a single writing that "disturbed" some loser teacher with a BLA, and you are convicting him over a single sentence. You are worse than the teacher, the school, and the police and that is pretty god damn bad.

Kids like that need therapy, not a criminal record. Sheesh.

A sentence out of what? A couple pages? A couple paragraphs? A sentence is nothing. If I wrote "and there was a cat there too.." would you be able to deduce what my paper was about?
My qualms with the sentence in question have nothing to do with the topic of the paper. It doesn't matter if he wrote a paper about the beauty of nature -- that one sentence was a threat. Frankly, your analogy sucks.


Then you admit to being a close-minded bigot. The VT killer had a notable history of this kind of thing, this kid was arrested over a single writing that "disturbed" some loser teacher with a BLA, and you are convicting him over a single sentence. You are worse than the teacher, the school, and the police and that is pretty god damn bad.
Yeah, I'm a "close-minded bigot." I'm not exactly sure what I'm bigotted towards... Perhaps slack-jawed idiots who write threatening messages in their homework assignments and then expect nothing to happen? Well, you got me there.

My qualms with the sentence in question have nothing to do with the topic of the paper. It doesn't matter if he wrote a paper about the beauty of nature -- that one sentence was a threat. Frankly, your analogy sucks.
It wasn't so much an analogy as a point. You can't derive intent from a part of a sentence. It wasn't even a whole damn sentence.


Yeah, I'm a "close-minded bigot." I'm not exactly sure what I'm bigotted towards... Perhaps slack-jawed idiots who write threatening messages in their homework assignments and then expect nothing to happen? Well, you got me there.
Slack-jawed idiots? Yeah, bigot. A straight-A student following the guidelines of the assignment is obviously a slack-jawed idiot, as opposed to the person who is deducing intent from part of a sentence from a section of a writing of unknown length or topic.

It wasn't so much an analogy as a point. You can't derive intent from a part of a sentence. It wasn't even a whole damn sentence.
Intent? Who said anything about intent? Sure, he could have been joking. Why don't we just use that logic for all future threats on our schools? Yeah! We'd be oh-sooo PC and Constitutional!!!


Slack-jawed idiots? Yeah, bigot. A straight-A student following the guidelines of the assignment is obviously a slack-jawed idiot, as opposed to the person who is deducing intent from part of a sentence from a section of a writing of unknown length or topic.
Um...first of all, let me just point one thing out:
A person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
So, apparently I'm discriminating against...crappy writers? Seriously, man, I know bigot is a beloved liberal word and everything, but you've gotta find a new one in cases like this. Perhaps "fascist" or "Nazi" would do nicer.

that one sentence was a threat.
How the living fuck is "I had a dream that I shot people" a threat? Seriously, that's not even close to a threat. There's this thing called a dictionary. Go get one and look up threat, because that is about as much a threat as a brick is a fucking marine fish. Not at all.

Intent? Who said anything about intent? Sure, he could have been joking. Why don't we just use that logic for all future threats on our schools? Yeah! We'd be oh-sooo PC and Constitutional!!!
Oh yes, let's prosecute people for thought crimes. There is no mention of a history and thus they are tossing him into jail for writing one single thing. When people get fucking arrested, it is no longer an issue of "freedom of speech in schools." Let's have cops roving around arresting anyone who says any single thing that sounds "disturbing" to them.


So, apparently I'm discriminating against...crappy writers? Seriously, man, I know bigot is a beloved liberal word and everything, but you've gotta find a new one in cases like this. Perhaps "fascist" or "Nazi" would do nicer.
Looks like you are bigoted against liberals because who besides conservative bigots pulls that out of their asses as an insult?

How the living fuck is "I had a dream that I shot people" a threat? Seriously, that's not even close to a threat. There's this thing called a dictionary. Go get one and look up threat, because that is about as much a threat as a brick is a fucking marine fish. Not at all.
You are an unbelievable moron. Try thoroughly reading the thread before you go and make yourself look like such a useless piece of crap.
Oh yes, let's prosecute people for thought crimes. There is no mention of a history and thus they are tossing him into jail for writing one single thing. When people get fucking arrested, it is no longer an issue of "freedom of speech in schools." Let's have cops roving around arresting anyone who says any single thing that sounds "disturbing" to them.
Thought crimes? How in the hell was what he wrote a "thought crime?" This kid didn't write political dissent, he didn't write an unfavorable critique of his school -- he made a reference to school-related violence. There's a gigantic difference. I suppose you're now going to argue that screaming "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater is protected speech; any opposition to this unalienable right is mandating the existence of "thought crime." Seriously, did you buy the "Idiot's Guide to Orwell" and not understand a word of it or something?

You are an unbelievable moron. Try thoroughly reading the thread before you go and make yourself look like such a useless piece of crap.
If you carry on like that, your mind will be the only thing of yours we can read.
Try and cool off a bit, huh?

This kid didn't write political dissent, he didn't write an unfavorable critique of his school
Didn't he? How do you know? You are making assertion based on a fraction of a single sentence?

-- he made a reference to school-related violence.
So? Maybe the directions should have read "don't self-censor unless you are writing something that we don't like."

There's a gigantic difference. I suppose you're now going to argue that screaming "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater is protected speech;
No, but writing what you want in a creative writing class where you are directed to "not self-censor" doesn't strike me as inciting panic in a crowd.

Seriously, did you buy the "Idiot's Guide to Orwell" and not understand a word of it or something?
Who needs the Idiot's Guide to Orwell when we have some one making up the rules from the Cliff's Notes?

So, apparently I'm discriminating against...crappy writers? Seriously, man, I know bigot is a beloved liberal word and everything, but you've gotta find a new one in cases like this. Perhaps "fascist" or "Nazi" would do nicer.

Well, fascist IS somewhat more accurate then bigot, since you are advocating the abridgment of freedom of speech.

You are an unbelievable moron. Try thoroughly reading the thread before you go and make yourself look like such a useless piece of crap.Everybody in this thread, but especially Read My Mind, needs to knock off the personal attacks. Just because you leave off the profanity doesn't mean it isn't personal.


If you carry on like that, your mind will be the only thing of yours we can read.
Try and cool off a bit, huh?
Good advice. Follow it, folks. Now.

I had a dream that I was shot once. Maybe it was that kid:eek:

The complete text from the daily Herald

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=306827

Blood sex and Booze. Drugs Drugs Drugs are fun. Stab, Stab, Stab, S…t…a…b…, poke. "So I had this dream last night where I went into a building, pulled out two P90s and started shooting everyone…, then had sex with the dead bodies. Well, not really, but it would be funny if I did." Umm, yeah, what to wright about…… I'm leaving to join the Marines and I really don't give a [expletive] about my academics, so why does the only class that's complete [expletive], happen to be the only required class…enough said. The model citizen would stay around to vote in new board member to change the 4 years of English policy, but no one really stays around to vote for that kind of local crap, so whoever gets there name on the Ballet with a pretty face gets to do what the [expletive] ever they want with local ordinance. A person is smart, but people are dumb selfish animals. We can't make rules for ourselves so we vote others to do it for us, but we can't even do that right, I meen seriously, Bush for President? And our other option was John Kerry who claimed to parktake in Vietnam Special Forces missions that haven't been declassified…. [expletive]. So Power Flower Super Mario. Pudge, hook, rot, dismember "Fresh Meat." Most new/young teachers are laid back, and cooperative with students as feedback and input into the curriculum and atmosphere. My current English teacher is a control freak intent on setting a gap between herself and her students like a 63 year old white male fortune 500 company CEO, and a illegal immigrant. If CG was a private catholic school, I could understand, but wtf is her problem. And baking brownies and rice crispies does not make up for it, way to try and justify yourself as a good teacher while underhandidly looking for complements on your cooking. No quarrel on you qualifications as a writer, but as a teacher, don't be surprised on inspiring the first cg shooting.


Nothing that should demand arrest from any government thjat considers itself just nor any people that consider themselves free. I want someone should find a teacher that has never heard of Swift, and try to present "A modest proposal" as their own work. I'd love to see that.

I will say though: What an obnoxious little brat.

I will say though: What an obnoxious little brat.

Yes, but that's not a crime.

Yes, but that's not a crime.

As my post will tell, I agree entirely. Not only was the police (and charging) completely without merit, but he doesnt even seem to need counseling to me either. I think all the people who think mass social-conditioning programs like "zero tolerance" work, are delusional. Human nature isnt something that can be molded like putty.

Disorderly conduct, which carries a penalty of 30 days in jail and a $1,500 fine, is filed for pranks such as pulling a fire alarm or dialing 911. But it can also apply when someone's writings can disturb an individual, Delelio said.

You know, I was thinking I would spend an hour on here posting before I went to bed, but this has depressed me enough. Night all.

As my post will tell, I agree entirely. Not only was the police (and charging) completely without merit, but he doesnt even seem to need counseling to me either. I think all the people who think mass social-conditioning programs like "zero tolerance" work, are delusional. Human nature isnt something that can be molded like putty.

"Zero tolerance" is an excuse not to think. Did you hear about the kid who got out of school suspension for getting beaten up?

Or my personal favorite, schools who give kids out of school suspensions for truancy. :rolleyes:

Ugh. What part of Congress shall make no law regarding establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of; or abriding the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition their government for redress of grievances do these people not understand?

Ugh. What part of Congress shall make no law regarding establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of; or abriding the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition their government for redress of grievances do these people not understand?

It's bad form to make a blank post.

:p

"Zero tolerance" is an excuse not to think. Did you hear about the kid who got out of school suspension for getting beaten up?

Well put! And I have heard many such stories. Didnt someone in this very thread suggest that the mere carrying of a pocket knife should be grounds for suspension or counseling? I mean not only 20 years ago, a pocketknife was as common a pocket item as a wallet.

I myself own 2 pocketknives, two multi-tools and several various replica and real weaponry. I hope we have not yet reached the point where a kid saying they collect weapons involves a trip to the counseler.

Or my personal favorite, schools who give kids out of school suspensions for truancy. :rolleyes:

Yeah, dont think I've ever heard anyone able to justify that.

Yes, but that's not a crime.

but I wonder... anyone know if that state has some law that says the only way to force someone for evaluation is after an arrest/charge?

and thanks Relyc for finding that transcript. ;)


distrubing... yes, but arrest worthy? Not in my opinion.

but the handwriting is a crime... :p

Unless the whole thing is released, they are overreacting. There was no investigation period, it was straight kick out of school and get arrested. Despite what you and school admins think, there is a very obvious and achievable middle ground. From what they released, the teacher's assignment flat out said "write whatever comes to your mind, don't censor yourself" and then he wrote something patently absurd and was arrested for it.

Yeah. It's a bit...iffy. Sucks miserably, too. I mean, if a teacher said to not censor myself, well, I'm a smartass, so I'd end up writing something inflammatory and absurd.

This is probably what this person is doing.

But, of course, it's a good thing he was arrested, and he should be placed in a camp to help him be reprogra...help him recover, and be turned into a zom...that is, a productive member of society. The security of the people is above all others, and all measures are worthle...essential.

Heil.

Well put! And I have heard many such stories. Didnt someone in this very thread suggest that the mere carrying of a pocket knife should be grounds for suspension or counseling? I mean not only 20 years ago, a pocketknife was as common a pocket item as a wallet.

I'm not actually sure I can take credit for that. It might be a quote...but I might've said it too...

What is the problem? Students rights are trampled all the time.

This sort of behavior makes kids feel even more isolated and angry than they did before. It is more likely to create new school shootings than to prevent them.

It's like how all those schools responded to Columbine by banning trenchcoats. As though trenchcoats created all the gunshots.

Well put! And I have heard many such stories. Didnt someone in this very thread suggest that the mere carrying of a pocket knife should be grounds for suspension or counseling? I mean not only 20 years ago, a pocketknife was as common a pocket item as a wallet.

I myself own 2 pocketknives, two multi-tools and several various replica and real weaponry. I hope we have not yet reached the point where a kid saying they collect weapons involves a trip to the counseler.
if the school has Pocket knives as listed as a contraband item, then yes, it is gounds for whatever punishment the school gives.

it doesn't matter what we as individuals think, but what the school rules are. don't like it, then work with the community to change the rules.

But, of course, it's a good thing he was arrested, and he should be placed in a camp to help him be reprogra...help him recover, and be turned into a zom...that is, a productive member of society. The security of the people is above all others, and all measures are worthle...essential.

Heil.
Well he is a prospective marine...

Well he is a prospective marine...

Aren't the Marines the branch of the military that are supposed to inflict extremely large amounts of violence when needed?

Yes, and we expect only the finest, proudest, most-well adjusted members of society will join. Questions?
Well, it worked for the SS.

Aren't the Marines the branch of the military that are supposed to inflict extremely large amounts of violence when needed?

Yes, and we expect only the finest, proudest, most-well adjusted members of society will join. Questions?

I'm Canadian and my university has a campus police. On the other hand, that could be because the University is huge. I don't know if they are armed or not. The probably just enforce parking.My university has around 28,000 students... sure we have security guards, but they're not the police, and you virtually never ever see them around. The most their armed with is a veteran beer belly.

I would call the quoted passage as enough proof that the student was a threat. Many potential killers have clean records, have never harmed anyone before, and can indeed even have friends and appear normal. The very fact that he wrote such a thing is a warning sign and not something to be taken lightly, even if in all other areas of his life the kid seemed harmless.
What a load of tosh. Plenty of murderers have never written an essay in their lives, plenty of non-murderers have written about disturbing images including murder and violence.

Plenty of murders have occured after the murderer was dumped by or broke up with their romantic partner, maybe we should arrest everyone who is dumped by or breaks up with their romantic partner. Seriously, why does a straight A student lose the right to create an essay that includes violent images in a creative writing course as a result of some other student they dont know at some other school they've never been to breaking the law? Absolutely ludicrous. It's hysteria pure and simple, and also rather pathetic.

[snip]"Oh, he was just joking! I guess I'll just disregard the fact that he just casually referenced a plan to commit violence and just hope that he actually was kidding." That one sentence was threatening -- anything written around it cannot change that
Except that no plan to commit violence was referrenced in the sentence at issue.

Intent? Who said anything about intent? Sure, he could have been joking. Why don't we just use that logic for all future threats on our schools?
We're not just talking about a school, we are talking about an arrest and a criminal charge and the issue of intent is often very important in criminal proceedings. When a 5 year old playing cowboys and indians with some other 5 year old points their respective fake weapon at their playmate and says 'I'm going to kill you', most people will reasonably interpret that no threat was intended and therefore no threat was made.

And let's look at the police's response. It's actually illegal to threaten another person with violence, there are laws against it and correlated criminal charges. But the police didnt charge this student in accordance with such laws, they obviously didnt see that a prosecution under those laws would be successful. They were reduced to trying to make an inappropriate charge 'fit' the case and they'd only do that if there was no hope under the laws that deal with threats of violence to others. So it must be the police's oppinion (and they have seen the entire essay, are familiar with the laws at issue and frankly have much more experiance with judging potential instances of threats than you do) that no threat occured. I'm not inclined to take your less authoritive and uninformed word on this over their more fully informed and in this issue much more authoritive opinion.

And this, my friends, is why I hold absolutely no resentment towards my being home-schooled. The American school system is so fucked it's depressing - small wonder kids go insane with this kind of mentality.