NationStates Jolt Archive

My sister calls me this evening, and my first thought is that there was some bad news about her husband's cancer treatment (there is, but that was the second part of the call). She'd had to go to traffic court--she was hazy on the details, but it involved 6 points, a potential $150 fine, and a school zone. Her husband has friends with connections, but they couldn't help her with this one.

But apparently someone told the judge about her situation, because when she stands up before him, he mentions her troubles, as he put it. My sister is a little surprised by this, but she lives in a small town in Georgia (a suburb of Savannah) and we grew up in small towns, so having everyone know your business is part of life (and part of the reason I'll never live in a small town again if I can help it). The judge offers her an out on her ticket, but here's the catch:

She has to go to church five times instead.

No explanation on why the number five is magical for this offense, and no particular requirement as to the church she has to attend (though I think she ought to find a mosque, or better, a Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster if one is available)--she just has to bring back some indication of which church she attended.

Her words to me after saying this--and she was chuckling at the time--were "what country am I living in again?" Now something about my sister--she's gone through much the same situation as I have with the Jehovah's Witnesses, although she still has a relationship with our parents because she found a loophole that I refuse to exploit, but I'd hardly say she's a believer beyond some vague, "there's something out there" sort of way. In other words, she's not an atheist like I am, but she's also not much on the faith front.

But she's taking this with her usual aplomb. Her attitude is pretty much "sure I'll pop into a church if it saves me 150 bucks and a high insurance rate." And I can't say as I blame her. My response was--to her surprise, I think--that I would do the same, only once I'd gotten the ticket cleared, I'd go to the press with it and make a stink. Of course, that would mean I'd be fucked by every cop for a hundred miles, which is why I would never live in a small town again.

Take the poll.

at least she didnt have to give him a blow job

if she pays attention, she can do all 5 services in one weekend. it doesnt have to be all one denomination does it?

[snbip] it's up to her.

go to church, and bring back evidence of going to that church (what consitutes as evidence... the program?) and all she loses is 5 sundays.

then again, without knowing what the details of the judge's orders are, most churches have mid week bible study... so she could do all 5 visits within two weeks.

This could be the Judge trying to show alot of leniency towards her. So why complain? Does she think she'll be 'brainwashed' within 5 visits?

Then again, it's a choice, so she can probably opt to pay the fine.

at least she didnt have to give him a blow job

if she pays attention, she can do all 5 services in one weekend. it doesnt have to be all one denomination does it?

She didn't say, though frankly, I'd have found the blowjob offer a little less offensive. At least then the judge is looking for something out of it for himself as opposed to dumping religion on her.

She didn't say, though frankly, I'd have found the blowjob offer a little less offensive. At least then the judge is looking for something out of it for himself as opposed to dumping religion on her.
:confused: so you would rather suffer sexual harrasement than go to church?

it's up to her.

go to church, and bring back evidence of going to that church (what consitutes as evidence... the program?) and all she loses is 5 sundays.

then again, without knowing what the details of the judge's orders are, most churches have mid week bible study... so she could do all 5 visits within two weeks.

This could be the Judge trying to show alot of leniency towards her. So why complain? Does she think she'll be 'brainwashed' within 5 visits?

Then again, it's a choice, so she can probably opt to pay the fine.

She's not complaining--she's going to do the church thing, as I would, though as I said above, I'd try to find a way to fuck with the judge in the process, and fuck him over afterward, because this is a crappy choice. It's a form of extortion--pay the fine or go to church five times. The church thing shouldn't be an option. If I were in that situation, I'd certainly be up for some sort of community service, even picking up garbage on the side of the road in lieu of a fine, but the church thing seems a bit crappy, not to mention useless in certain cases.

:confused: so you would rather suffer sexual harrasement than go to church?
It's not a choice of what I'd rather--it's what I'd find less offensive. I'd rather be lewdly propositioned than be proselytized.

It's not a choice of what I'd rather--it's what I'd find less offensive. I'd rather be lewdly propositioned than be proselytized.
Ah, ok.

it's up to her.

go to church, and bring back evidence of going to that church (what consitutes as evidence... the program?) and all she loses is 5 sundays.

then again, without knowing what the details of the judge's orders are, most churches have mid week bible study... so she could do all 5 visits within two weeks.

This could be the Judge trying to show alot of leniency towards her. So why complain? Does she think she'll be 'brainwashed' within 5 visits?

Then again, it's a choice, so she can probably opt to pay the fine.

you gotta think outside of the box, junii

on saturday she can go to a synagogue and a seventh day adventist service. on sunday she can go to a lutheran and anglican service. then catch a catholic mass on either saturday or sunday evening.

all done.

if she pays attention, she can do all 5 services in one weekend. it doesnt have to be all one denomination does it?
You can do them all in a weekend with just a Catholic church. Really easily if it's an important holy day weekend.
1, probably 2 on Saturday night, at least 2 on Sunday. Then sneak into the end of a Baptist mass after the later Catholic Mass on Sunday. There you go, 5 in two days.

Take the poll.

No way. This cannot possibly be legal or wise. Our system of government is supposed to be separated from religion--and that INCLUDES the judicial system!--and as such "church attendence" should not be a way out of a bloody fucking ticket. We don't have a national religion nor do we require our citizens to believe in a religion, so what the FUCK does this idiot judge think he's doing by offering something like this?

No way. I'd go to the press instantly about this and let it be known to all how foolish and stupid this is. 150 dollars, while a hell of a lot to me right now, is worth far less than my dignity as an atheist.

It's not a choice of what I'd rather--it's what I'd find less offensive. I'd rather be lewdly propositioned than be proselytized.

id rather have the stupid church thing. if i was offered a deal that invovled sex, i would have to take it to the authorities. with the church thing, i can take the deal if i want to avoid the points/fine thing or turn it down and go to the newspapers. or just forget it.

demands for blowjobs you cant just forget.

You can do them all in a weekend with just a Catholic church. Really easily if it's an important holy day weekend.
1, probably 2 on Saturday night, at least 2 on Sunday. Then sneak into the end of a Baptist mass after the later Catholic Mass on Sunday. There you go, 5 in two days.

i dont think you can survive 5 masses on one weekend. its just not possible.

i dont think you can survive 5 masses on one weekend. its just not possible.

That's what sleep is for.

That's what sleep is for.

good point

She's not complaining--she's going to do the church thing, as I would, though as I said above, I'd try to find a way to fuck with the judge in the process, and fuck him over afterward, because this is a crappy choice. It's a form of extortion--pay the fine or go to church five times. The church thing shouldn't be an option. If I were in that situation, I'd certainly be up for some sort of community service, even picking up garbage on the side of the road in lieu of a fine, but the church thing seems a bit crappy, not to mention useless in certain cases.Then think of it as Community Service. Yes, the judge can stipulate what that service is. picking up trash, cleaning out toilets, Visiting the elderly, Tutoring, whatever. so in this Judges case, your sister was sentenced to 5 visits to church.

you can see it as proselytized, but I see it as the Judge giving her help in a way that most of the community won't object to. Think about it in this way. With her husband's Cancer, Community Service, while tedious, is time away from her husband who would need her.
A fine, is money taken away from bills and staples.
Most churches, when they learn of her plight, may take up a collection to help pay her bills, regardless if she's a true believer.

Cancer is a hard thing to live through even when its for those living with one who is suffering from cancer.

What the Judge could be doing is offering her a source of Financial as well as Emotional and Mental assistance without publicising her plight or forcing her to ask for help.

Instead of seeing the sentence as a silly and stupid thing for the Judge to do, try looking at it as to her situation and what the judge could do to help without making it look like favortism, or that "someone pulled strings."

you gotta think outside of the box, junii

on saturday she can go to a synagogue and a seventh day adventist service. on sunday she can go to a lutheran and anglican service. then catch a catholic mass on either saturday or sunday evening.

all done.

considering that most masses and services last what... 3 hours... average...

that's torture.

my way spreads it out and still allow alot of time for her to be with her hubby.

Instead of seeing the sentence as a silly and stupid thing for the Judge to do, try looking at it as to her situation and what the judge could do to help without making it look like favortism, or that "someone pulled strings."
Bullshit. It's forced church attendence, or in other words forced religious worship, and that is just downright cruel and unusual punishment, JuNii. Whatever "benefits" she might get from it are irrelevant. It's not something that should have been offered.

Besides, she broke the law, and as such should pay the debt to society incurred by breaking this law. That's $150 dollars, please.

considering that most masses and services last what... 3 hours... average...

that's torture.

my way spreads it out and still allow alot of time for her to be with her hubby.

no mass lasts longer than an hour. its in the priest union contract.

if she chooses the right protestant denominations, its similar. the jewish and 7th day adventist things... i have no idea.

no mass lasts longer than an hour. its in the priest union contract.

if she chooses the right protestant denominations, its similar. the jewish and 7th day adventist things... i have no idea.

Holy shit. Are you serious? Priests have a union?

That blows my poor little mind.

Bullshit. It's forced church attendence, or in other words forced religious worship, and that is just downright cruel and unusual punishment, JuNii. Whatever "benefits" she might get from it are irrelevant. It's not something that should have been offered.

Besides, she broke the law, and as such should pay the debt to society incurred by breaking this law. That's $150 dollars, please.

it's not forced, she has a choice. pay the fine or attend 5 services of any "unspecified" church.

same as if it was Pay the fine or do 200 hours of community service at the Long Term Care Hospital.

as well as those benefits you scoff at? we've had people who gathered enough donations through various churches to not only pay the hospital bills, but morgages, utilities and groceries untill the person didn't need assistance. they had people volunteering to babysit while the parents are at the hospitals, maintaining the home, even assisting in furneral arraingements when the person takes a turn for the worse.

yeah, I guess that kind of freedom from financial worries and other "benefits" is irrelevant to you.

it's not forced, she has a choice. pay the fine or attend 5 services of any "unspecified" church.

same as if it was Pay the fine or do 200 hours of community service at the Long Term Care Hospital.

as well as those benefits you scoff at? we've had people who gathered enough donations through various churches to not only pay the hospital bills, but morgages, utilities and groceries untill the person didn't need assistance. they had people volunteering to babysit while the parents are at the hospitals, maintaining the home, even assisting in furneral arraingements when the person takes a turn for the worse.

yeah, I guess that kind of freedom from financial worries and other "benefits" is irrelevant to you.
Be realistic Junii. You really think a local church is going to take up a special collection for a nonbeliever who is showing up simply because a judge gave her that as an option? There's magical thinking and then there's being ridiculous.

Be realistic Junii. You really think a local church is going to take up a special collection for a nonbeliever who is showing up simply because a judge gave her that as an option? There's magical thinking and then there's being ridiculous.

yes. It's happens here in Hawaii. our church recently had a call for bone marrow doners for a friend of one of the congregation.

those are acts that are NOT televised by the media, nor are they pasted on news groups. those are acts that are quietly done.

For all everyone's snipping about Religion, Churches are also wellsprings of assistance.

Holy shit. Are you serious? Priests have a union?

That blows my poor little mind.

would YOU do that job without an excellent contract?

Then think of it as Community Service. Yes, the judge can stipulate what that service is. picking up trash, cleaning out toilets, Visiting the elderly, Tutoring, whatever. so in this Judges case, your sister was sentenced to 5 visits to church.

Yeah, but the judge doesn't get to decide arbitrarily what does, and does not constitute community service.

he can't make her give oral sex to the court room and call it community service. He can't make her handle toxic waste.

Moreover community service is assigned so that an individual works off the debt by doing charitable work. What charitable work is done by going to church?

I have very big questions as to whether this is legal.

if she chooses the right protestant denominations, its similar. the jewish and 7th day adventist things... i have no idea.

Jewish services on a Saturday last average 3 hours (at least religious ones).
Of course almost nobody comes for the whole time, most come an hour to an hour and a half late. (at least where I go)

Although I don't know the synagogues and their levels of belief in the area.

Reform: varies. 2 services one done Friday night and one done Saturday morning. Both about an hour and a half.

Conservative: WIDE range. Anywhere from an hour and a half to 3 hours.

Orthodox: All 3 hours unless they go ripshod through the service which can be finished (with bunches of mumbling) in 1 hour. That's how it's done in Israel.

yes. It's happens here in Hawaii. our church recently had a call for bone marrow doners for a friend of one of the congregation.

Let's see what part of this sentence is important, shall we?

Yeah, but the judge doesn't get to decide arbitrarily what does, and does not constitute community service.

he can't make her give oral sex to the court room and call it community service. He can't make her handle toxic waste.

Moreover community service is assigned so that an individual works off the debt by doing charitable work. What charitable work is done by going to church?

I have very big questions as to whether this is legal.

of course its not legal

but in small town america, they arent necessarily sticklers.

Let's see what part of this sentence is important, shall we?
Oh, Geuss what... it answers Nazz's question about Churches doing collections for Non Believers/Members.

also, the Church does not confer Mind reading nor Clairvoiyance. thus how else would they know about anyone's plight unless someone says something.

but you would rather nitpick. so go right ahead.

the one important thing to remember tho, is this. The Choice is not mine to make, it’s not yours, nor is it The Nazz… it’s his Sister and I just hope that no matter what choice she makes, others will respect it.

Sure Nazz can convince her to turn in the Judge and start the Media circus. but Nazz doesn't have to live with the results. She does.

I had a longer post but the crash ate it. The gist of it was...it's not that simple.

only if someone doesn't want it simple.

Yeah, I also had a Long reply... but "Meh." too wordy... :p

of course its not legal

but in small town america, they arent necessarily sticklers.

I had a longer post but the crash ate it. The gist of it was...it's not that simple.

it's not forced, she has a choice. pay the fine or attend 5 services of any "unspecified" church.
Incorrect. It is forced, because it's either pay $150 dollars or attend a church. If you're that strained that $150 dollars is too much for you to afford, then it is extortion, which makes the judge a criminal.

as well as those benefits you scoff at? we've had people who gathered enough donations through various churches to not only pay the hospital bills, but morgages, utilities and groceries untill the person didn't need assistance. they had people volunteering to babysit while the parents are at the hospitals, maintaining the home, even assisting in furneral arraingements when the person takes a turn for the worse.
I'm fully aware of that. According to my father, his parents had those exact kind of benefits from their local church shortly before they died. I never knew personally because I never met them.

yeah, I guess that kind of freedom from financial worries and other "benefits" is irrelevant to you.
At the moment, it is, because I have no such worries.

Look, I'm not unsympathetic to her plight. Obviously she's in a lot of stress due to her husband's illness, and Nazz knows I'm not a heartless person. I just don't see what right a judge has to even offer church service as a way of paying for a ticket when our system of government specifically states religion has no part in the affairs of the government!

As Nazz said, be realistic. A church is not going to start up those benefits for a nonbeliever who is only attending because it was court ordered.

Oh, Geuss what... it answers Nazz's question about Churches doing collections for Non Believers/Members.

also, the Church does not confer Mind reading nor Clairvoiyance. thus how else would they know about anyone's plight unless someone says something.


You think I am the one nitpicking? You compared a church giving money to a sibling of an established member and somehow you use this substantiate a claim that a church is just going to hand over money to a complete and total stranger who they have never met and has no connections to their church what so ever?

Nazz is right, there's wishful thinking, and then there's just lunacy.

You think I am the one nitpicking? You compared a church giving money to a sibling of an established member and somehow you use this substantiate a claim that a church is just going to hand over money to a complete and total stranger who they have never met and has no connections to their church what so ever?

Nazz is right, there's wishful thinking, and then there's just lunacy.

who said sibling? the fact that you are reading different words... only supports the lunacy part... but not on me.

I wish I had that option for my speeding tickets.

One time they made me go to this eight hour class about 'how to drive'. God, it was awful. We got to see the 'speed kills' movie.

Really though, that movie only applies to people with cheap and/or american cars.

I'd take church anytime.

Wait, your background in the criminal legal system is what again?

please state where in the laws does anything have to be complicated?

only if someone doesn't want it simple.

Wait, your background in the criminal legal system is what again?

who said sibling? the fact that you are reading different words... only supports the lunacy part... but not on me.

alright, fine. Friend. My error invalidates my point...how, exactly?

The friend was still connected through the community via the person in the congregation.

He wasn't some random dude that showed up one day and went "money, please".

please state where in the laws does anything have to be complicated?

what...the hell....are you....talking about.

I said the legal analysis as to whether this is in fact legal is a bit more complicated than some might think.

As Nazz said, be realistic. A church is not going to start up those benefits for a nonbeliever who is only attending because it was court ordered.ah, so Realistic is all churches are shallow havens of Greed and perversion. they would never assist anyone who has no connection or ties to their church. Nevermind that she's still a memeber of her community.

And anything else is wishful thinking and lunacy.

Then consider me a Lunatic. because I won't live in your Reality.

considering that most masses and services last what... 3 hours... average...

that's torture.

my way spreads it out and still allow alot of time for her to be with her hubby.

What churches were you going to? Father Hall made sure we were out of there in an hour or less. Of course, he knew the congregation would rise and revolt if took more than that.

what...the hell....are you....talking about.

I said the legal analysis as to whether this is in fact legal is a bit more complicated than some might think.
and I just said you can either make it complicated by going into the fine details or keep it simple by not going into the fine details.

that's all I meant.

no, realistic is recognizing that the people who hold the church purse strings are not going to hand out money to whomever shows up asking for it.

and who holds the purse strings?

ah, so Realistic is all churches are shallow havens of Greed and perversion.

no, realistic is recognizing that the people who hold the church purse strings are not going to hand out money to whomever shows up asking for it.

I won't live in your Reality.

I um...I can believe that.

I would go to an elitist anglican church and wear shirts with offensive slogans on them. Or nothing at all.

Alternatively i would go to a scientologist group if i could find one. Just to see what those crazy kids are about.. And to propose theories of my own, maybe it would be adopted into the religion.. something about the centre of the universe being a giant pink teapot. :gundge:

ah, so Realistic is all churches are shallow havens of Greed and perversion. they would never assist anyone who has no connection or ties to their church. Nevermind that she's still a memeber of her community.

And anything else is wishful thinking and lunacy.

Then consider me a Lunatic. because I won't live in your Reality.

...JuNii, what's up with the random capitalization, lately?

Anyway, a church will only help those with ties to it, usually, as the people would usually only concern themselves with those they know well. It's been my experience, especially as an atheist. Besides, one can live in a community and never be a part of it. I've lived here for over a year but I don't know a single person anywhere near me, and I really don't care to either.

I also find it interesting you ignored my points about the justice system and the real reason I am upset by this. Why do you keep ignoring that?

In fact, you don't sound like yourself at all. Are you sure you're okay?

As Nazz said, be realistic. A church is not going to start up those benefits for a nonbeliever who is only attending because it was court ordered.

All depends on the church in question.

Some will turn a person away, especially if the attendance is mandated. Others will look at this as an opportunity given by God to save a soul and gratefully donate money to bring this new person further into the church community by demonstrating Christian charity. My old church took that approach with new families in town, though they had a large enough congregation to afford it.

What churches were you going to? Father Hall made sure we were out of there in an hour or less. Of course, he knew the congregation would rise and revolt if took more than that.

I've been to some where you had fun singing and dancing... yes dancing. and after the service, you wouldn't believe how much time went by.

It really depends on the church and the congregation.

and who holds the purse strings?

um...the treasurer. Who is usually hired and empowered by whatever entity manages the church.

Anyway, a church will only help those with ties to it, usually, as the people would usually only concern themselves with those they know well.
Go to a Catholic church, you pretty much become a priest out of an insane altruistic want to be helpful as opposed to wanting to be on stage and confer your beliefs to a whole bunch of saps. Generally.

Go to a Catholic church, you pretty much become a priest out of an insane altruistic want to be helpful as opposed to wanting to be on stage and confer your beliefs to a whole bunch of saps. Generally.

Really? Interesting...I did not know this.

But I'm about as likely to go to a Catholic church as a Wraith Hiveship suddenly appearing in Earth orbit full of Wraith ready to feed on us all, so I won't have a chance to find out for myself.

...JuNii, what's up with the random capitalization, lately?Cold fingers. our computer room tends to be on the freezing side. so sometimes my pinky taps the shift key. I try to catch most of em... but...

Anyway, a church will only help those with ties to it, usually, as the people would usually only concern themselves with those they know well. It's been my experience, especially as an atheist. Besides, one can live in a community and never be a part of it. I've lived here for over a year but I don't know a single person anywhere near me, and I really don't care to either.

I also find it interesting you ignored my points about the justice system and the real reason I am upset by this. Why do you keep ignoring that?

In fact, you don't sound like yourself at all. Are you sure you're okay?because 1) I'm not arguing the Justice system. 2) the choice really is up to Nazz's Sister. He already said she was taking the Church option. I just hope (yes, and pray) that some good will occur. and I don't mean her finding Religion, but her finding some assistance with her Husband's situation.

As for living among a community and not being apart of it. Yes, that has happened. Now is it the community shunning that person or that person shutting out the community? Nazz's Sister could attend church, but if she makes no attempt to make friends (attends and leaves) then I expect very little to be done. but if she makes one friend, even if she never goes back to Church ever again, then she just made a way into one aspect of the community. if she keeps that friend, then... well, we'll have to see.

um...the treasurer. Who is usually hired and empowered by whatever entity manages the church.
wrong. The ones who holds the purse strings are the congregation. the money thithed to the church, yes, that would be the treasurer, but that isn't what is given in cases like this. it's what is given by the Congregation for the expressed purpose of whatever it is that person is giving for in that Case. at that point, the treasurer only accounts for it, but can't control it.

Really? Interesting...I did not know this.

But I'm about as likely to go to a Catholic church as a Wraith Hiveship suddenly appearing in Earth orbit full of Wraith ready to feed on us all, so I won't have a chance to find out for myself.

it's not just Catholics. My hometown church is like that. so's the one I go to now.

and I am not Catholic. ;)

Cold fingers. our computer room tends to be on the freezing side. so sometimes my pinky taps the shift key. I try to catch most of em... but...

Ah. That I understand all too well.

because 1) I'm not arguing the Justice system. 2) the choice really is up to Nazz's Sister. He already said she was taking the Church option. I just hope (yes, and pray) that some good will occur. and I don't mean her finding Religion, but her finding some assistance with her Husband's situation.

Fair enough. I hope she gets some good out of this too, personally.

As for living among a community and not being apart of it. Yes, that has happened. Now is it the community shunning that person or that person shutting out the community? Nazz's Sister could attend church, but if she makes no attempt to make friends (attends and leaves) then I expect very little to be done. but if she makes one friend, even if she never goes back to Church ever again, then she just made a way into one aspect of the community. if she keeps that friend, then... well, we'll have to see.
Again, a good point.

As for my case, it's me shutting out the community because I want nothing to do with it. My experiences with these rural mountain communities in the past has tought me we have little to nothing in common and I truly just don't care to interact with them.

it's not just Catholics. My hometown church is like that. so's the one I go to now.

and I am not Catholic. ;)
Uh huh. Churches I've been to in the past have not been so kind, however, so you'll forgive me for judging based on my own experiences.

As for my case, it's me shutting out the community because I want nothing to do with it. My experiences with these rural mountain communities in the past has tought me we have little to nothing in common and I truly just don't care to interact with them.Nothing wrong with that. it's your choice after all. but I hope you're not rude or mean to anyone who tries to "warm up" to you.

Uh huh. Churches I've been to in the past have not been so kind, however, so you'll forgive me for judging based on my own experiences.no problem. as was said earlier. it depends on the church.

Cold fingers. our computer room tends to be on the freezing side. so sometimes my pinky taps the shift key. I try to catch most of em... but...

because 1) I'm not arguing the Justice system.

Then think of it as Community Service. Yes, the judge can stipulate what that service is. picking up trash, cleaning out toilets, Visiting the elderly, Tutoring, whatever. so in this Judges case, your sister was sentenced to 5 visits to church.


O RLY?

O RLY?

Yep.

I am not arguing the Legalities of what the Judge ordered. I just said the Judge could order those things.

small difference, but still a difference.

That's really warped.

That's really warped.

but true, I never argued whether sending her to church was legal or not. In fact, I said she could argue against it if she wanted to. come to think of it, I might have said it was illegal, but most wouldn't fight it.

but I also said the Judge could order it with the least percentage of someone arguing against it. ("most likely" is the phrase I used, I believe.)

I know I did question what form the Evidence had to take. that would be interesting to find out...

Really? Interesting...I did not know this.

But I'm about as likely to go to a Catholic church as a Wraith Hiveship suddenly appearing in Earth orbit full of Wraith ready to feed on us all, so I won't have a chance to find out for myself.

Oh, I don't know--I've been to a number of Catholic masses in the past, and even stood in a Catholic wedding. I got the feeling the entire congregation thought I was a lech because I kept staring at the bridesmaids--I was just looking for cues to know when to stand and when to kneel, etc. But the ritual is interesting. I wouldn't be a Catholic on a bet, but the mass is cool to watch.

It's a no brainer. Go to church five times. Afterward you can't be charged with the traffic violation again because of double jeopardy, right? So when you're done with church sue the judge for violating your constitutional rights and see if you can make a few bucks off the deal. Maybe the ACLU can even be called in to lend a hand with the lawsuit.

I already go to church every Sunday, so it would be no big deal for me.

Be realistic Junii. You really think a local church is going to take up a special collection for a nonbeliever who is showing up simply because a judge gave her that as an option? There's magical thinking and then there's being ridiculous.

Oh.. I most certainly think they might. If for no other reason than to get them to come back, or make themselves look good. But it all depends on the people at that church. I've been to churches who were extra nice to the visitor .. then others who treated them like they had the plague...all depends. I respect neither though.

They shouldn't kiss anyones ass to make them want to come back.. and if they treat the visitor rudely, well that's not the place you want to be anyway.

i dont think you can survive 5 masses on one weekend. its just not possible.

Believe it or not, there is a Drive-in Church at Daytona beach, FL. I am going to drop by this sunday, just for the heck of it. And if I can't stand it, I can always drive away...:D

Take the church option. Also, I reccomend a Catholic church for two reasons.
1. No one will bug her about how she needs to convert, be born again, give her life to Christ, ect.
2. The priests have that service down to a fine science. In and out in an hour or less.*




*money back guarantee.

It's stupid, yeah, but what I think we're seeing here is an example of the judge not even thinking about the matter of church-state separation.

What it seems is the judge wants to do a nice thing, but not let her off scot-free. Well, the judge probably thought "Hmmm...what's a good thing...what's a good thing.... I know! Have her go to church! Church is a good thing!"

Yeah, it's silly...it would be better if the judged assigned her to do five hours of volunteer work, or something, but I can see his line of thought.

In summation: The judge is a nitwit, but a nitwit with his heart in the right place.

Well, I can see where people are up in arms, because it hardly seems like a legal option.

HOWEVER...as Junnii said, many churches will take up collections, friends of the congregation or not. My pastor has a "discretionary fund" and has had people knock on his door, because the parsonage is right next to the church...people know a minister lives there...asking for help. He always gives it, whether he knows the person or not. I had been to the church 4 times, when my daughter got critically ill. She was 2 months old, and spent 12 days in ICU. The minister came and sat with me every day for several hours, and they took up a collection to help pay for me to eat at the hospital 2 meals a day. They didn't know me from Adam, and I (at the time) was just going because he said I had to go a few times before he would perform a baptism on my daughter. I hadn't planned on really going after she had been baptised. Some congregations DO go out of their way to help people.

Tell your sister to look for a UCC church...they tend to have short and sweet services, they are extremely accepting of all types, they aren't going to try and convert, because they aren't "Born-Again". OR a Universalist Unitarian, which is a melding of all religions, including properties of some of the Pagan religions. Either one of those would be good for a non religious person.

but true, I never argued whether sending her to church was legal or not. In fact, I said she could argue against it if she wanted to. come to think of it, I might have said it was illegal, but most wouldn't fight it.

but I also said the Judge could order it with the least percentage of someone arguing against it. ("most likely" is the phrase I used, I believe.)

I know I did question what form the Evidence had to take. that would be interesting to find out...

Oh, I was meaning the OP itself, not your post, specifically. :)

Take the church option. Also, I reccomend a Catholic church for two reasons.
1. No one will bug her about how she needs to convert, be born again, give her life to Christ, ect.
2. The priests have that service down to a fine science. In and out in an hour or less.*




*money back guarantee.actually, my old church (Baptist) wasn't one that pressured anyone to "convert" neither is the Protestant one I go to now.

Oh, I was meaning the OP itself, not your post, specifically. :)oh... sorry. :cool:

So how many times would you have to go to mass if you killed someone?

Nothing wrong with that. it's your choice after all. but I hope you're not rude or mean to anyone who tries to "warm up" to you.

Nope...but then I stay in my house most of the time so no one ever gets the chance.

Oh, I don't know--I've been to a number of Catholic masses in the past, and even stood in a Catholic wedding. I got the feeling the entire congregation thought I was a lech because I kept staring at the bridesmaids--I was just looking for cues to know when to stand and when to kneel, etc. But the ritual is interesting. I wouldn't be a Catholic on a bet, but the mass is cool to watch.
You mean you're not a lech? :p

Seriously though, I know what you mean...the odd rituals these Catholics practice to worship their sky fairies are interesting, especially from an academic viewpoint.

Believe it or not, there is a Drive-in Church at Daytona beach, FL. I am going to drop by this sunday, just for the heck of it. And if I can't stand it, I can always drive away...:D

A drive-through church...what's next? Drive-through lemonade stands? Drive-through grocery stores? Drive-through pharmacies?

A drive-through church...what's next? Drive-through lemonade stands? Drive-through grocery stores? Drive-through pharmacies?drive through Weddings... Drive through Eye Doctors (hey some of them drivers sure seem like they need em.), Drive through Divorce court... :p

So how many times would you have to go to mass if you killed someone?

geeez

every day for the rest of your life...

10,000 years in purgatory...

and a couple convents of nuns praying for you every day

just might do it.

(different kind of judge for felonies than for traffic violations. the big-time judges dont get that kind of discretion)

She should go to Fred Phelps church wearing a 'Jesus is gay' t-shirt.

You mean you're not a lech? :p

Of course I'm a lech, but I can play a harmless fellow when I need to, unless, apparently, I'm standing/sitting/kneeling in a Catholic wedding. ;)