NationStates Jolt Archive

Earlier today, I was thinking about whether the Jews are a nation (today is Israeli Independence Day btw), and I came to a realization.

Jews are a nation. We always have been.

Contrary to common belief (a belief I have erroneously espoused in the past), Jews did not 'become' a nation/ethnic group through low conversion rates due to persecution. We already were a nation. At no point in history have the Jews had a high rate of conversion like Christianity or Islam.

When we invaded Canaan, we displaced/exterminated (yes, exterminated - read the Book of Joshua for details) the locals, rather than converting them by force (whether that is justified is not the subject of debate here - start another thread for that). The Jewish religion was not particularly attractive to outsiders, and those who did convert were encouraged to assimilate into the Jewish nation. During the Diaspora, Jews of course had even fewer converts, due to persecution. And today, the long conversion process scares away many converts.

I therefore submit that the Jews are a nation and an ethnic group in their own right. Furthermore, we are an ancient ethnic group, with a history extending back over 3000 years. And we have our own state - Israel (though others may live there if they choose, just as non-Japanese may live in Japan, or non-Britons may live in Britain).

Discuss.

Are the Jews a nation? Nope. Israel is a nation. But not all Jews are Israeli citizens. So no.

Earlier today, I was thinking about whether the Jews are a nation (today is Israeli Independence Day btw), and I came to a realization.

Jews are a nation. We always have been.

Contrary to common belief (a belief I have erroneously espoused in the past), Jews did not 'become' a nation/ethnic group through low conversion rates due to persecution. We already were a nation. At no point in history have the Jews had a high rate of conversion like Christianity or Islam.

When we invaded Canaan, we displaced/exterminated (yes, exterminated - read the Book of Joshua for details) the locals, rather than converting them by force (whether that is justified is not the subject of debate here - start another thread for that). The Jewish religion was not particularly attractive to outsiders, and those who did convert were encouraged to assimilate into the Jewish nation. During the Diaspora, Jews of course had even fewer converts, due to persecution. And today, the long conversion process scares away many converts.

I therefore submit that the Jews are a nation and an ethnic group in their own right. Furthermore, we are an ancient ethnic group, with a history extending back over 3000 years. And we have our own state - Israel (though others may live there if they choose, just as non-Japanese may live in Japan, or non-Britons may live in Britain).

Discuss.

So essentially you are saying what the Nazis and what the anti-Semites throughout history have always said: Jews are aliens and misfits who should feel no natural loyalty or brotherhood with their Gentile neighbors, and they must always owe their allegiance to alien, foreign influences (the State of Israel, for example).

The idea of the ethnic nation state went out long ago, the need to unite for economic, political and military reasons is just too great. In every ethnic minority in the world had their own nation, we would have like thousands of tiny nations. Israel is pretty much the only bulwark these days against finally doing away with this outdated concept of nationhood.

*snip*The folks led by Joshua into Canaan were egyptianized Asiatics/Hebrews (=Israelites), not Jews. And non-Israelites did not distinguish between the Israelites and other Hebrews. So where do you see nationhood there? And modern Israel has nothing to do with ancient Israel.

Define your terms.

Do consider, in this context, nation to mean

a) a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
b) the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America.
c) a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
d) an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

Israel is both (a) and (b). The Jewish ethnic group was historically (d), but is becoming less so as the predominance of the Hebrew language is fading among Jews. I know plenty of Jews who only know a few basic pleasantries in Hebrew.

When the last Jewish King was defeated the Jews ceased to be a nation (which IMHO is a political term). They were an ethnic group already in that time and continued until now. There is a more-or-less Jewish nation now (aren't there people in the Knesset who want to implement Sharia law?) and there is a Jewish ethnic group but they are not the same. If I moved there to marry my fiance, I would be a non-Jew even though I could gain citizenship of Israel. Also there are Jewish communities at n+x places worldwide, not only in Israel.

The idea of the ethnic nation state went out long ago, the need to unite for economic, political and military reasons is just too great. In every ethnic minority in the world had their own nation, we would have like thousands of tiny nations. Israel is pretty much the only bulwark these days against finally doing away with this outdated concept of nationhood.

It's really not. Take a random country, like... Portugal. Who lives there? By an overwhelming majority, the Portuguese. What is its official language? Portuguese, as spoken by the aforementioned overwhelming majority. Why are there non-Portuguese living there? Immigration, family ties, they have summer houses. Whatever.

What this adds up to is that Portugal is the very model of a modern nation-state. Right next to it is a similar fellow, named Spain, who in turn hangs out with a nation-state called France. France has a bit of a history with a pair of rather more recent nation states, Germany and Italy.

And the "Jews" are a nation, a historically persecuted one and thus particularly in need of a state. I prefer to think of them as "Hebrews". You can have a non-Jew Hebrew. I believe there a few on this forum. The reverse is true as well. But there is an ethnic nation-state for them, called Israel. It was given to them by the UN, who received it from Britain, who pinched it from the Ottomans who had conquered that area from the Egyptians who had long ruled the Arabs who had driven out the Byzantines....

Like most nation-states, it's best sticking to the present. What's done is done.

Also, you say "small nations" like it's a bad thing. Go and take a vote among every Lapp in Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Russia. They want a Lappland? At least one of the above is ready to give them some land? Sure. Thing is, they don't. They're mostly happy being citizens of the Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, and Russian nation-states.

The same can't be said of the Hebrews/Jews. Believe it or not, they weren't so keen on Germany, the USSR, and assorted former sattelite states.

And can you show me some of that necessity? Some of that wonderful harmony? Like Iraq, where Shias and Sunnis have put aside their differances with one another and the Kurds to create a democratic state marching forward into a bright future due to their rich oil reserves? Or maybe Yugoslavia, where all Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and Bosnians were free to co-operate in their misery, oppression, and civil war? Or perhaps that glorious bastion of freedom, progress, and liberty, the USSR?

Oh... wait a second...

Define your terms.

Do consider, in this context, nation to mean

a) a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
b) the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America.
c) a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
d) an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

Israel is both (a) and (b). The Jewish ethnic group was historically (d), but is becoming less so as the predominance of the Hebrew language is fading among Jews. I know plenty of Jews who only know a few basic pleasantries in Hebrew.
Were Jews an ethic group prior to 70 CE ? What made them distinguishable from other Semites living in the area then besides the religion?

Right next to it is a similar fellow, named Spain, who in turn hangs out with a nation-state called France. France has a bit of a history with a pair of rather more recent nation states, Germany and Italy.

Hmmm, Not sure about Portugal but Spain has several ethnic groups (or why did the ETA want independence?), Italy has 'Südtirol' where a German-speaking minority lives as well as a French minority. Germany has the Frisians and the Sorbes. Very uniform, su?

When we invaded Canaan

there was no such invasion

there was no such invasion

But the imaginary invasion is actually an important aspect of Jewish nationhood.

It was one of the elements in the national mythology that provided the foundation for the whole thing in the first place.

Were Jews an ethic group prior to 70 CE ? What made them distinguishable from other Semites living in the area then besides the religion?The last 2000 years doesn't count as history?

But the imaginary invasion is actually an important aspect of Jewish nationhood.

It was one of the elements in the national mythology that provided the foundation for the whole thing in the first place.

true - everybody needs a founding myth. though i wish they'd worked a little more on that whole tribes of israel thing. me, i think i'd rather have my mythical tribal founding be based on which canoe my ancestors arrived on rather than linking back to one of the not-so-good brothers born to, essentially, the patriarch's mistress.

Hmmm, Not sure about Portugal but Spain has several ethnic groups (or why did the ETA want independence?), Italy has 'Südtirol' where a German-speaking minority lives as well as a French minority. Germany has the Frisians and the Sorbes. Very uniform, su?

See my comment on the Lapps. The Südtirolers don't want to be Germans, else they would go there, or petition the Italian government to cede the area. I suppose Spain was a rather poor example, but I don't see a Languedoc seperatist movement, or Frisians marching for self-determination.

Earlier today, I was thinking about whether the Jews are a nation (today is Israeli Independence Day btw), and I came to a realization.

Jews are a nation. We always have been.

Contrary to common belief (a belief I have erroneously espoused in the past), Jews did not 'become' a nation/ethnic group through low conversion rates due to persecution. We already were a nation. At no point in history have the Jews had a high rate of conversion like Christianity or Islam.

When we invaded Canaan, we displaced/exterminated (yes, exterminated - read the Book of Joshua for details) the locals, rather than converting them by force (whether that is justified is not the subject of debate here - start another thread for that). The Jewish religion was not particularly attractive to outsiders, and those who did convert were encouraged to assimilate into the Jewish nation. During the Diaspora, Jews of course had even fewer converts, due to persecution. And today, the long conversion process scares away many converts.

I therefore submit that the Jews are a nation and an ethnic group in their own right. Furthermore, we are an ancient ethnic group, with a history extending back over 3000 years. And we have our own state - Israel (though others may live there if they choose, just as non-Japanese may live in Japan, or non-Britons may live in Britain).

Discuss.

There are two Israels. There is Israel the state and Israel the nation. Israel the nation is all the Jews. Israel the state is a mediteranean state.

The last 2000 years doesn't count as history?Oh, did they change their ethnicity?

I knew this guy who was Jewish. He hated me though...But this other Jewish guy was cool.

Oh, and as far as on topic...Sure, why not?

Hmmm, Not sure about Portugal but Spain has several ethnic groups (or why did the ETA want independence?), Italy has 'Südtirol' where a German-speaking minority lives as well as a French minority. Germany has the Frisians and the Sorbes. Very uniform, su?We have Frisians, too:(

It would depend on your definition of 'nation' and 'Jew', I guess.

Define your terms.

Do consider, in this context, nation to mean

a) a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
b) the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America.
c) a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
d) an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

Israel is both (a) and (b). The Jewish ethnic group was historically (d), but is becoming less so as the predominance of the Hebrew language is fading among Jews. I know plenty of Jews who only know a few basic pleasantries in Hebrew.

I would agree with our perpetually sandy friend here. But I also think the Quebecois are a nation, Gypsies are a nation, Mapuche indians are a nation, as well as many other groups that have a common culture, history, language, etc., regardless of whether or not they have a state.

See my comment on the Lapps. The Südtirolers don't want to be Germans, else they would go there, or petition the Italian government to cede the area. I suppose Spain was a rather poor example, but I don't see a Languedoc seperatist movement, or Frisians marching for self-determination.

No the Südtirolers probably don't want to be Germans, however 37% of them wish to reunite with Austria. And up until the 1980s there was an insurgency ala the IRA attacking mostly Italian infrastructure in the area. In the end due to the strong resistance to becoming Italians, Süd-Tirol is now semi-autonomous with enough self-decision power that it is not truely part of Italy anymore except geographically. According to the 2001 census more than two-thirds of the population is German-speaking (69%).

I would say that the Jews are a nation. Insofar as a nation means they have a shared history.

The Brits, Germans, Russians, history is all the same, they went through the same struggles together and came out alive (at least so far) same with the Jews.

There is also biological evidence to show Jews are a nation, for example the "Cohen Chromosome" which is a gene unique to Cohanim of the Jewish faith. Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron)

No the Südtirolers probably don't want to be Germans, however 37% of them wish to reunite with Austria. And up until the 1980s there was an insurgency ala the IRA attacking mostly Italian infrastructure in the area. In the end due to the strong resistance to becoming Italians, Süd-Tirol is now semi-autonomous with enough self-decision power that it is not truely part of Italy anymore except geographically. According to the 2001 census more than two-thirds of the population is German-speaking (69%).

Ah, but 63% don't. So the 37% can go and live in Austria. But I've just realized that the debate is irrelevant. Their are ethnic minorities in Isreal, too. Palestinians and Druze and Bedouin. Thus, "Isreal is the only nation-state" is invalid regardless of wrangling about whether a nation-state has to be absolutely 100% of that nation (it doesn't, not under my brand of nationalism).

So essentially you are saying what the Nazis and what the anti-Semites throughout history have always said: Jews are aliens and misfits who should feel no natural loyalty or brotherhood with their Gentile neighbors, and they must always owe their allegiance to alien, foreign influences (the State of Israel, for example).Just like a Russian living in America?:rolleyes:
Come on now you know better than that. Why do you interpret an assertion that being Jewish is like being a German or a Russian as a confirmation of the blood libel straight from the horses mouth? You may have problems that you need addressed.

I am a Jew- as well as an atheist and an anti-Zionist.

(it doesn't, not under my brand of nationalism).Well there's at least one brand of nationalism...

Well there's at least one brand of nationalism...

..and regardless of what brand it is, its always best to take it with a pinch of salt....

Are muslims a nation? no. Are Atheists a nation? no. Are Hindus a nation? no. So the same can be said about Jews.

Oh, did they change their ethnicity?They may well have done. Ethnicity is not a constant factor. Ethinicities change, appear and disappear over time. Indeed a person can change their ethinicity if they so desire. All they need do is declare it. For instance, I could declare myself to be a black chinese jew and my government (the UK) would accept that. Ethnicity is a relatively new word and it means jack shit, the only reason we use it because it isn't a loaded term like race or nationality or whatever.

It would depend on your definition of 'nation' and 'Jew', I guess.



I would agree with our perpetually sandy friend here. But I also think the Quebecois are a nation, Gypsies are a nation, Mapuche indians are a nation, as well as many other groups that have a common culture, history, language, etc., regardless of whether or not they have a state.hehehe, perpetually sandy friend. I like that.

I'd agree with what you also said, but I think that the Gypsies/Roma are several nations, not just one.

Also, you say "small nations" like it's a bad thing. Go and take a vote among every Lapp in Sweden, Finland, Norway, and Russia.

"Lapp" is an offensive term. The name generally preferred by the Sami people is, well, "Sami". Kindly update yourself.

Are muslims a nation? no. Are Atheists a nation? no. Are Hindus a nation? no. So the same can be said about Jews.You sir are just plain ignorant. I am an atheist Jew. There is a secular Jewish culture- like there is secular Arab culture. Depending on the context, 'Jew' could mean an adherent of the religion called Judaism or a member of the Jewish ethnic group. There is no such thing as an atheist Christian or Muslim. Or an atheist Hindu. Now an Indian atheist on the other hand...

Being a Jew and an adherent of Judaism isn't necessarily the same thing.

I'm not sure what the definition of "nation" is. The Jews are NOT a nation-state. They have a nation-state, as do the French, Germans, and Russians.

You sir are just plain ignorant. I am an atheist Jew. There is a secular Jewish culture- like there is secular Arab culture. Depending on the context, 'Jew' could mean an adherent of the religion called Judaism or a member of the Jewish ethnic group. There is no such thing as an atheist Christian or Muslim. Or an atheist Hindu. Now an Indian atheist on the other hand...

Being a Jew and an adherent of Judaism isn't necessarily the same thing.

still, a race and a nation are not the same thing.

still, a race and a nation are not the same thing.I didn't say anything about race actually. Race is a social construct. In the social American context I am simply white. The Jews are a nationality or ethnic group, which is different from race.



Nationality:
5. "a nation or people: the nationalities of the Americas."

People:
4. "the entire body of persons who constitute a community, tribe, nation, or other group by virtue of a common culture, history, religion, or the like: the people of Australia; the Jewish people."

Nation:
4. "an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages."

Ethnic:
1. "pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like."

The Jews as a people share a language, a culture and a religious and historical tradition. The are actually mentioned in the definition of "a people." Nationality is defined as a people. "Nation" is defined by ethnicity which is the same as belonging to a "people." Thus the Jews constitute a nationality, a people, an ethnic group or a nation.

how, you have some strange thoughts.

A nation cannot be a religion. A religion is a way of life and/or a belief.

A nation is a sovereign state. Recognised by the UN as an independantly governing area of the planet.

A Nation can be religious i.e Britain is a Christian nation.

But Britian is not the nation of christians if you see what I mean.

Vatican city is the only example of what I could link to your arguement, and they're not jews.

A nation cannot be a religion. A religion is a way of life and/or a belief.
*Sigh* more ignorance. I am an atheist Jew. An ethnic Jew and an adherent of Judaism are not necceserily the same thing. Please read beyond the opening post if you wish to further clear up your misconceptions.

A nation is a sovereign state. Recognised by the UN as an independantly governing area of the planet.No. A nation is a group to which someone belongs through birth. Hence the word. However, this is a pretty outdated concept and should not be used any more.

*Sigh* more ignorance. I am an atheist Jew. An ethnic Jew and an adherent of Judaism are not necceserily the same thing. Please read beyond the opening post if you wish to further clear up your misconceptions.What exactly is an ethnic Jew? What constitutes Jewish ethnicity?

What exactly is an ethnic Jew? What constitutes Jewish ethnicity?Someone who is culturally Jewish or was raised culturally Jewish but does not necessarily practice, or was raised in a family that practiced Judaism.

At one point, they were a nation more or less, but they have since assimilated in so many different cultures, we aren't really a nation anymore.

Earlier today, I was thinking about whether the Jews are a nation (today is Israeli Independence Day btw), and I came to a realization.

Happy Birthday Israel. Today you are a wonderful 59 years old. :)

Jews are a nation. We always have been.

Yes you always have been.

Contrary to common belief (a belief I have erroneously espoused in the past), Jews did not 'become' a nation/ethnic group through low conversion rates due to persecution. We already were a nation. At no point in history have the Jews had a high rate of conversion like Christianity or Islam.

Very truthful statement :)

When we invaded Canaan, we displaced/exterminated (yes, exterminated - read the Book of Joshua for details) the locals, rather than converting them by force (whether that is justified is not the subject of debate here - start another thread for that). The Jewish religion was not particularly attractive to outsiders, and those who did convert were encouraged to assimilate into the Jewish nation. During the Diaspora, Jews of course had even fewer converts, due to persecution. And today, the long conversion process scares away many converts.

Indeed.

I therefore submit that the Jews are a nation and an ethnic group in their own right. Furthermore, we are an ancient ethnic group, with a history extending back over 3000 years. And we have our own state - Israel (though others may live there if they choose, just as non-Japanese may live in Japan, or non-Britons may live in Britain).

Discuss.

There is nothing to discuss. You stated everything elegantly :)

At no point in history have the Jews had a high rate of conversion like Christianity or Islam.That is actually not the case. During periods of extreme persecution and acceptance of converted Jews into gentile society, the conversion rate has been quite high. Not to mention the great numbers of Jews who have come to renounce all superstitions.

Someone who is culturally Jewish or was raised culturally Jewish but does not necessarily practice, or was raised in a family that practiced Judaism.What does culturally Jewish mean? And again: what is Jewish ethnicity and when did it came into existence? With the beginning of the diaspora? With the Mishnah or Talmud? With the Masoretes?

What does culturally Jewish mean? And again: what is Jewish ethnicity and when did it came into existence? With the beginning of the diaspora? With the Mishnah or Talmud? With the Masoretes?What does 'culturally Italian' mean? When did Italian ethnicity come into existence?

"Lapp" is an offensive term. The name generally preferred by the Sami people is, well, "Sami". Kindly update yourself.

Possibly not 100% correct, this is true. But so are all sorts of things. As a Scot, I get called English all the time. That doesn't mean I'm being slurred, it's just ignorance and habit, which is all my unthinkable use of the word "Lapp" is. The Sami (thank you very much) word for the northernmost province of Finland is "Lappi". So please ask some of the people themselves before claiming I'm insulting them.

Well there's at least one brand of nationalism...

Please, people, I am about 95% percent sure you don't know what I'm talking about. When I say "I am a nationalist" I mean "I am a believer in the concept of the nation-state." "My brand" refers to the beliefs I hold inlcuding that every nation need have a state if it doesn't want one and that no-one should be legally obliged to live in their nation-state.

What does 'culturally Italian' mean? When did Italian ethnicity come into existence?So in fact, you have no answer. Although you just claimed that there are ethnic Jews who do not follow Judaism. Now I ask you what an ethnic Jew is but you start evasive maneuvers.

So in fact, you have no answer. Although you just claimed that there are ethnic Jews who do not follow Judaism. Now I ask you what an ethnic Jew is but you start evasive maneuvers.Here's one aspect of Jewish culture: we often answer questions with questions:p
I am trying to standardize terms. By answering my question about Italian culture, or any other culture that you consider legitimate, you will let me know what your definition of culture is. I'm sure that you'd accuse Socrates of using evasive tactics too:rolleyes:
Now stop beating around the bush and define your terms: what constitutes Italian culture?

Here's one aspect of Jewish culture: we often answer questions with questions:p
I am trying to standardize terms. By answering my question about Italian culture, or any other culture that you consider legitimate, you will let me know what your definition of culture is. I'm sure that you'd accuse Socrates of using evasive tactics too:rolleyes:
Now stop beating around the bush and define your terms: what constitutes Italian culture?What constitutes Jewish culture? You started about Jewish culture as opposed to Jewish religion, so tell me what you have. What is an ethnic Jew?

It's an interesting question. like people have said, depends on you terms.

Jewish people could plausably be designated as a nation based on shared language and culture. Much of that culture stems from religious practices, but have branched out.

As a result of some of the cultural and political aspects of the ancient Jewish people, relativiely low intermixing resulted in some semi-isolated genetic populations. However, these genetic populations are only "jewish" in the context of the population surrounding them - they aren't more similar than expected to other Jewish communities (which themselves may be isolated form their surroundings). So for example, polish jews may be somewhat genetically isolated from other poles, and ethiopian jews may be somewhat genetically isolated from other ethiopians, but polish and ethiopian jews don't have a higher frequency of shared genes than expected.

So, whether or not Jewish poeple come from an original ethnic "nation", and are still the gentic descendents of that group is hard to know: what is easier to say is that the cultural and religious heritage (or memes) have been transmitted fairly consistently into discrete chunks - and though this trasmision isn't necessarily biological, it is exclusive enough to have created many distinct Jewish groups, that still share language, traditions, laws, and so on.

With the advent of Israel, many of these groups have come together and an interesting Israeli culture, based on the various shared and distinct aspects of jewish culture has emerged. The majority of Jews worldwide identify with Israel as a centre for the Jewish people now, htough some don't. So I think Jews are a nation on a few different levels.

What constitutes Jewish culture? You started about Jewish culture as opposed to Jewish religion, so tell me what you have. What is an ethnic Jew?
Ok, so you don't have a working definition of culture. That's fine, I'll give you one to accept or reject. This one is from the American Heritage dictionary.


1. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.

2. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.


Is this acceptable?

Ok, so you don't have a working definition of culture. That's fine, I'll give you one to accept or reject. This one is from the American Heritage dictionary.


1. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.

2. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.


Is this acceptable?1. is OK. In 2. the "culture of poverty" is what?
And that's all that make up ethnicity? What is an ethnic Jew now? Or a cultural Jew. As opposed to a religious Jew?

I am a Jew- as well as an atheist and an anti-Zionist.

You sir are just plain ignorant. I am an atheist Jew. There is a secular Jewish culture- like there is secular Arab culture. Depending on the context, 'Jew' could mean an adherent of the religion called Judaism or a member of the Jewish ethnic group. There is no such thing as an atheist Christian or Muslim. Or an atheist Hindu. Now an Indian atheist on the other hand...

Being a Jew and an adherent of Judaism isn't necessarily the same thing.

If you were brought up in a non-jewish culture then I'd call you a semite but since you were brought up in a jewish culture then I'd agree with you, just like I am an atheist from a north-western european christian culture.

Some examples of my Jewish culture. Mind you, as a former Soviet citizen and an American, I'm quite assimilated. My own "Jewish identity" is far more teneous than that of many of my friends. It does not figure as prominently in my own conception of myself as it once did.
1. Holidays (Chanukah gelt!:D )
2. ways of thinking (hard to describe, but is best exemplified by the works of folks like Isaac Bashevis Singer, Woody Allen, Baruch Spinoza etc)
2. certain humanistic ethics and values that are derived from Jewish thought
3. food (latkes, knish, bagal, etc)
4. slight Yiddish vocabulary
5. knowledge of and vague connection to Jewish history
6. my prized collection of neuroses

I was brought up in a non-religious Jewish household by the way. If you want to call non-religious Jews 'Semites', go ahead. We've been called worse things.:rolleyes:

Israel isn't technically a jewish state, is it?

There needs to be someplace like, Jewland. That could be a nation. Or it could be a theme park, I'm not sure which is better yet.

Some examples of my Jewish culture. Mind you, as a former Soviet citizen and an American, I'm quite assimilated. My own "Jewish identity" is far more teneous than that of many of my friends.

[QUOTE=Free Outer Eugenia;12592746]1. Holidays (Chanukah gelt!:D )

In Soviet Russia gelt Chanukah YOU!

2. ways of thinking (hard to describe, but is best exemplified by the works of folks like Isaac Bashevis Singer, Woody Allen, Baruch Spinoza etc)

In Soviet Russia Woody Allen laughs at YOU!

2. certain humanistic ethics and values that are derived from Jewish thought

In Soviet Russia jewish thought is derived from YOU!

3. food (latkes, knish, bagal, etc)

In Soviet Russia latkes eats YOU!

4. slight Yiddish vocabulary

In Soviet Russia Yiddish Vocabulary slights YOU!

5. knowledge of and vague connection to Jewish history

In Soviet Russia Vague knowlege is not connected to YOU!

6. my prized collection of neuroses

In Soviet Russia Neuroses collects YOU!

EDIT: Sorry about all the lame 'soviet russia' jokes.

I was brought up in a non-religious Jewish household by the way. If you want to call non-religious Jews 'Semites', go ahead. We've been called worse things.:rolleyes:

Well I generally use semite as an ethnic classification (like polish semite). Don't worry, I am not going to try to go purge you from society (though I am part ww2 era german, hmmmm....).

Some examples of my Jewish culture. Mind you, as a former Soviet citizen and an American, I'm quite assimilated. My own "Jewish identity" is far more teneous than that of many of my friends. It does not figure as prominently in my own conception of myself as it once did.
1. Holidays (Chanukah gelt!:D )
2. ways of thinking (hard to describe, but is best exemplified by the works of folks like Isaac Bashevis Singer, Woody Allen, Baruch Spinoza etc)
2. certain humanistic ethics and values that are derived from Jewish thought
3. food (latkes, knish, bagal, etc)
4. slight Yiddish vocabulary
5. knowledge of and vague connection to Jewish history
6. my prized collection of neuroses

I was brought up in a non-religious Jewish household by the way. If you want to call non-religious Jews 'Semites', go ahead. We've been called worse things.:rolleyes:And which of these points are not rooted in Judaism? And are Jews Semites?

Jews are not a nation. Jews are not an ethnicity either. Saying so is as silly as saying that people born on mondays form a religion or ethnicity.

Jews are not a nation. Jews are not an ethnicity either. Saying so is as silly as saying that people born on mondays form a religion or ethnicity.

So arabs are not nations either. The Franks are not a nation either (BYE BYE FRANCE) Oh let us not talk about the kurds, turks, and other ethnicities either.

I am a nation of one.

Possibly not 100% correct, this is true. But so are all sorts of things. As a Scot, I get called English all the time. That doesn't mean I'm being slurred, it's just ignorance and habit, which is all my unthinkable use of the word "Lapp" is. The Sami (thank you very much) word for the northernmost province of Finland is "Lappi". So please ask some of the people themselves before claiming I'm insulting them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Etymologies

Their name for the Finnish province is irrelevant for their name of their own Sami land, which is Sápmi. Call a Sami a "lapp" and he will fuck you up, kid, especially if he knows that you know how offensive it is.

I am a nation of one.

you are not a nation.

you are not a nation.

Yes I am! Oh wait ... you're right ... I'm more of a city-state.

Damn ... foiled again!

Are the Jews a nation? Nope. Israel is a nation. But not all Jews are Israeli citizens. So no.
Yeah, I'm of Jewish descent, but I think the OP's idea is just dumb.

That's like... eh. Catholic being a nation.

'Hello, welcome to Catholicia. Population blah-blah woof-woof million...'

Yeah, I'm of Jewish descent, but I think the OP's idea is just dumb.

That's like... eh. Catholic being a nation.

'Hello, welcome to Catholicia. Population blah-blah woof-woof million...'If being Jewish is not being a member of a nation, then what is "of Jewish descent supposed to mean" ? Is this something along the lines of being of Catholic descent? What does it mean to be descended from someone with certain ideas? Do those ideas come along?
(And there are around 1.2 billion Catholics around right now, at least on paper.)

If being Jewish is not being a member of a nation, then what is "of Jewish descent supposed to mean" ? Is this something along the lines of being of Catholic descent? What does it mean to be descended from someone with certain ideas? Do those ideas come along?
(And there are around 1.2 billion Catholics around right now, at least on paper.)
I tend to think of it more as a race... defined by being short and having a big nose.

I tend to think of it more as a race... defined by being short and having a big nose.being short and having a big nose makes no race.
however, isn't your race idea not closer to "nation" than it is to "religion" ? considering your previous post: does Catholicism constitute a race?

I am a nation of one.

hey so am i! :)

i think they're an ethnicity not so much a nation

i think they're an ethnicity not so much a nationthen what is an ethnic Jew?

dont you guys be talking bad about my nation (or would be if i live there but im still jewish)!!!!:mad: :(

then what is an ethnic Jew?
Middle Eastern or Eastern European usually... usually shorter than average, usually bigger noses than average, usually darker skin than average.

At least that's what I think.

Middle Eastern or Eastern European usually... usually shorter than average, usually bigger noses than average, usually darker skin than average.

At least that's what I think.So ethnicity is defined by phenotype? Then others of the same phenotype are also Jews?

then what is an ethnic Jew?

the people who are of jewish descent, practice Judaism, and celebrate Jewish culture and customs.

being short and having a big nose makes no race.
however, isn't your race idea not closer to "nation" than it is to "religion" ? considering your previous post: does Catholicism constitute a race?
I DONT have a big nose!!!!:p yet i "Happen" to be short:D

Middle Eastern or Eastern European usually... usually shorter than average, usually bigger noses than average, usually darker skin than average.

At least that's what I think.

But I'm a 6'4, 200 pound Irish guy who's pale as a baboon's ass ...

Does that make me less Jewish? Mom's gonna be upset ...

the people who are of jewish descent, practice Judaism, and celebrate Jewish culture and customs.So a Jew is a follower of Judaism who is also descended from followers of Judaism?

the people who are of jewish descent, practice Judaism, and celebrate Jewish culture and customs.

yes that very true but if your jewish but if you are jewish by blood and you dont do the cultures than your more of somthing else than jewish:)

yes that very true but if your jewish but if you are jewish by blood and you dont do the cultures than your more of somthing else than jewish:)So basically a Jew is defined by religion?

So basically a Jew is defined by religion?

Eww.

Guess I'll have to tell the Goldmans up the road that their atheism means they're no longer Jewish.

Gonna be a sad, sad sukkot.

Eww.

Guess I'll have to tell the Goldmans up the road that their atheism means they're no longer Jewish.

Gonna be a sad, sad sukkot.Why is that sad? Does it make them worth less somehow?

Why is that sad? Does it make them worth less somehow?

They're gonna be so upset to find out that "Jew" is defined by religion.

Follow the conversation. :p

Eww.

Guess I'll have to tell the Goldmans up the road that their atheism means they're no longer Jewish.

Gonna be a sad, sad sukkot.
Having a German derived last name does not make one Jewish, nor does cooking shitty food or having curley red hair......The idea of a Jew, is a follower of the religion, a bond with God that ensues that you are part of his people....if you deny God and the religion, you are NOT Jewish...as that IS the reason for "Jew/Jewish/Judaism/Jude/" to EXIST.

They're gonna be so upset to find out that "Jew" is defined by religion.

Follow the conversation. :pWell, if the don't follow Judaism, what culture and customs remain that make them Jewish? (following Cookesland's and Thee state of Israel's descriptions of Jewishness)

Having a German derived last name does not make one Jewish, nor does cooking shitty food or having curley red hair......The idea of a Jew, is a follower of the religion, a bond with God that ensues that you are part of his people....if you deny God and the religion, you are NOT Jewish...as that IS the reason for "Jew/Jewish/Judaism/Jude/" to EXIST.So indeed a Jew is defined by religion?

Well, if the don't follow Judaism, what culture and customs remain that make them Jewish? (following Cookesland's and Thee state of Israel's descriptions of Jewishness)

They make great perogis.

To me, perogis define Jew.

Are the Jews a nation? Nope. Israel is a nation. But not all Jews are Israeli citizens. So no.

what this person said

So indeed a Jew is defined by religion?

Only to American Reform Jews.

They make great perogis.

To me, perogis define Jew.And that's the universally applicable definition?

So indeed a Jew is defined by religion?
Well, I am Jewish, and I will tell you so, however, without a doubt Keruvalia (a former Jew) will tell you the opposite, and as for other sources, I know Jews who share my point of view and Jews who share his....

In my opinion, there IS a right answer, and that is mine. However, there is no 1 answer that you will receive.

And that's the universally applicable definition?

No such thing as a universally applicable definition of Jewish.

Basically, decide for yourself.

Generally, though, if someone says they're Jewish, they are.

Well, I am Jewish, and I will tell you so, however, without a doubt Keruvalia (a former Jew) will tell you the opposite, and as for other sources, I know Jews who share my point of view and Jews who share his....

In my opinion, there IS a right answer, and that is mine. However, there is no 1 answer that you will receive.So Jews don't know themselves who is a Jew?

No such thing as a universally applicable definition of Jewish.

Basically, decide for yourself.

Generally, though, if someone says they're Jewish, they are.So does "Jew" or "Jewish" really mean anything at all. It all sounds pretty vague.

Well, I am Jewish, and I will tell you so, however, without a doubt Keruvalia (a former Jew) will tell you the opposite, and as for other sources, I know Jews who share my point of view and Jews who share his....

*chuckle* ...

"former" Jew ...

I can no more be a "former" Jew than I can be "former" Irish.

However, you did just prove the point I made in my last post, so all is well.

So Jews don't know themselves who is a Jew?
They may beleive someone to fall outsides the qualifications of "Jewish"...but they will hardly say so. There is no standard answer here. The concept of Jew is extremely flexible...and because it is, has been capitalized on both agains the Jews and by the Jews.

So Jews don't know themselves who is a Jew?

Not really ... unless we know their family.

In general, we just accept that someone saying they're Jewish as enough.

That and perogis.

*chuckle* ...

"former" Jew ...

I can no more be a "former" Jew than I can be "former" Irish.

However, you did just prove the point I made in my last post, so all is well.
I disagree to the first part, but agree to the second...atleast we both sorta agree to something.

So does "Jew" or "Jewish" really mean anything at all. It all sounds pretty vague.
Sure, it means alot. That's the problem...it means too much for a standard "A=B" definition.

So does "Jew" or "Jewish" really mean anything at all. It all sounds pretty vague.

Generally accepted is: If your mother is Jewish, you are Jewish.

or ...

If you convert to Judaism, you are Jewish.

Try reading through jewfaq.org ... very informative.

*chuckle* ...

"former" Jew ...

I can no more be a "former" Jew than I can be "former" Irish.

However, you did just prove the point I made in my last post, so all is well.So being Irish and being Jewish fall into the same category? Then Jewishness is not defined by religion again?

I disagree to the first part, but agree to the second...atleast we both sorta agree to something.

Yeah I know ... we all define ourselves in our own little ways.

So being Irish and being Jewish fall into the same category? Then Jewishness is not defined by religion again?
I repeat:
So does "Jew" or "Jewish" really mean anything at all. It all sounds pretty vague.
Sure, it means alot. That's the problem...it means too much for a standard "A=B" definition.

Go the website Keru gave you and just read up..there is no standard right/wrong 1 solution answer here.

So being Irish and being Jewish fall into the same category? Then Jewishness is not defined by religion again?

No, Jewishness is not defined by religion.

Unless you're a convert.

Believe me ... it's all very confusing. We don't really think about it all that much.

We leave the "who is a Jew and who isn't" debates to the goyim.

They may beleive someone to fall outsides the qualifications of "Jewish"...but they will hardly say so. There is no standard answer here. The concept of Jew is extremely flexible...and because it is, has been capitalized on both agains the Jews and by the Jews.extremely flexible? Ok, so to sum it up: "Jew" is just an arbitrary designation that has in fact no real meaning at all. Anyone call call himself a Jew if he likes to, because Jewishness is insubstantial.
In general, we just accept that someone saying they're Jewish as enough.
That and perogis.Ok, then. I say I'm Jewish. And preparing pierogi will be no problem either.

extremely flexible? Ok, so to sum it up: "Jew" is just an arbitrary designation that has in fact no real meaning at all. Anyone call call himself a Jew if he likes to.

In the Diaspora, yes. Could get you jail time in Israel, though, if you misrepresent yourself as Jewish.

Like I said ... it's best not to worry about it.

As a Jew myself I have to admit that I feel a certain entitlement to Israel. People have to realize that Israel was given to the Jews by G-d, so Jews as a nation... maybe not, but definitely Israel in the sense that it belongs to the Jews as said by G-d, or the Hebrews more accurately. I'm sure unreligious people won't agree, regardless... I think you'll like this quote... it's one of my favorites.


"...If statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky way. properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and had done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

- Mark Twain
("Concerning The Jews," Harper's Magazine, 1899,
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)

As a Jew myself I have to admit that I feel a certain entitlement to Israel. People have to realize that Israel was given to the Jews by G-d, so Jews as a nation... maybe not, but definitely Israel in the sense that it belongs to the Jews as said by G-d, or the Hebrews more accurately. I'm sure unreligious people won't agree, regardless... I think you'll like this quote... it's one of my favorites.


"...If statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky way. properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and had done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"

- Mark Twain
("Concerning The Jews," Harper's Magazine, 1899,
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)

Please cut the G-d crap. :rolleyes:
And that MT quote is just ridiculous.

Please cut the G-d crap. :rolleyes:

Someone not liking someone's religion. How quaint.

And that MT quote is just ridiculous.

So go whine to Twain about it.

Someone not liking someone's religion. How quaint.It's more a contempt for the political agenda behind this alleged religiousness.

So go whine to Twain about it.I will punch him next time I see him.

It's more a contempt for the political agenda behind this alleged religiousness.

Well it is a political forum ....

I will punch him next time I see him.

tee hee!

It's more a contempt for the political agenda behind this alleged religiousness.

I will punch him next time I see him.



if my religiousness was alleged I wouldn't be using G-d. I'd spell it out. It's very significant in the religion. Make sure you shake Hitler's hand after you punch Twain.

if my religiousness was alleged I wouldn't be using G-d. I'd spell it out. It's very significant in the religion. Make sure you shake Hitler's hand after you punch Twain.Writing G-d is always for the readers, never for any god. It's a sign of pride in religion, and an attempt to elevate oneself above others.
And after I shook Hitler's hand I'll say hello to Joshua who shares his apartment.

Writing G-d is always for the readers, never for any god. It's a sign of pride in religion, and an attempt to elevate oneself above others.
And after I shook Hitler's hand I'll say hello to Joshua who shares his apartment.

or perhaps it's because any Hebrew name of G-d is forbidden to erase/destroy hense historical documents that have been found are burried, not destroyed.... and jews are all about destroying idols... why would we attempt to separate ourselves? Jews enjoy talking about being jewish, but I think that's more of a cultural thing. In the english language G-d spelled with the o can mean so many things.

What's wrong with pride in religion? Would you say the same about a sports fan having pride in a team?

Nation

1. a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.
2. the territory or country itself: the nations of Central America.
3. a member tribe of an American Indian confederation.
4. an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages.

-from Dictionary.com

Yes, the Jews can be a nation. So can a lot of other groups of people.
Congratulations.
Good day.

or perhaps it's because any Hebrew name of G-d is forbidden to erase/destroy hense historical documents that have been found are burried, not destroyed.... and jews are all about destroying idols... why would we attempt to separate ourselves? Jews enjoy talking about being jewish, but I think that's more of a cultural thing. In the english languate G-d spelled with the o can mean so many things. G-d is an idol. :rolleyes:
And if you want to make clear which god you are referring to then I suggest you just name the god. Call him Yhvh, El, Yah, Enki, Elohim, or 'the biblical god', or whatever. But replacing letters with dashes is pointless. And making misspellings willfully is also insulting to the one you address.

What's wrong with pride in religion? Would you say the same about a sports fan having pride in a team?I consider all pride a flaw of character.

G-d is an idol. :rolleyes:
And if you want to make clear which god you are referring to then I suggest you just name the god. Call him Yhvh, El, Yah, Enki, Elohim, or 'the biblical god', or whatever. But replacing letters with dashes is pointless. And making misspellings willfully is also insulting to the one you address.

I consider all pride a flaw of character.



I don't write those names either. and the t is above the g. come on, that's so petty.

It seems like you're somewhat educated in the religion, so I'm assuming you know the reasoning for the dash and just chose to continue to debate. My only purpose was educating you.

I'm curious though, when you say all pride, does that include self-respect & dignity?

I still don't get how so many people have seemingly inexhaustible wellsprings of patience for pre-pubescent trolls like UB. He willfully, malignantly ignores everything various people torturously chew up and serve to him on a spoon, and insists on recieving some sort of monolithic truth. Does he want us to wipe up the intellectual dribble off his chin too? It's getting ridiculous already.

UB, we all know you hate religion of any sort almost as much as you hate Jews specifically. Stop scrubbing for ammunition in a thread that you have nothing to contrubute to.

I can no more be a "former" Jew than I can be "former" Irish.

.

Once you're in, theres no getting out.....

G-d is an idol. :rolleyes:
And if you want to make clear which god you are referring to then I suggest you just name the god. Call him Yhvh, El, Yah, Enki, Elohim, or 'the biblical god', or whatever. But replacing letters with dashes is pointless. And making misspellings willfully is also insulting to the one you address.I think the same thing whenever I see a Muslim poster put PBUH after Mohammed's name. It's like saying "Sorry Mo, but I'm lazy and I don't respect you enough to write out 'peace be upon him' in full after your name". Meh.

I still don't get how so many people have seemingly inexhaustible wellsprings of patience for pre-pubescent trolls like UB. He willfully, malignantly ignores everything various people torturously chew up and serve to him on a spoon, and insists on recieving some sort of monolithic truth. Does he want us to wipe up the intellectual dribble off his chin too? It's getting ridiculous already.

UB, we all know you hate religion of any sort almost as much as you hate Jews specifically. Stop scrubbing for ammunition in a thread that you have nothing to contrubute to.So seem to mistake my rational contempt for the abrahamic religions for hate of all religions. But I am not at all emotionally involved with these religions nor their followers. And yes I am in search of a 'monolithic truth', an accurate description of reality, including possible gods. But unfortunately Judaism and all its offshoots have nothing to offer of the kind. All they offer are the weird writings of a few fanatics out of the Persian and Ptolemaic eras of the Middle East, that do not correspond with other sources from that or prior periods. Either the bible was/is lying or the rest of the world, or at least of the Middle East. Now guess what I guess.

I consider all pride a flaw of character.
For someone who hates all the Abrahamic (just to make you happy) religions, you sure act a lot like a religious fundamentalist. If you don't have pride in anything, that's really rather sad...

For someone who hates all the Abrahamic (just to make you happy) religions, you sure act a lot like a religious fundamentalist. If you don't have pride in anything, that's really rather sad...Pride is exaggerated confidence in, upvaluation of, and emotional attachment to things or deeds or thoughts. I neither need nor approve of that.

And I will convert to Judaism at once, as soon as you prove to me beyond any doubt that the biblical god is indeed not Enki/Yah merged with Enlil/El who were worshiped by the rest of the Middle East, and that Israelites and Hebrews pursued the very same religion and theology prior to the "Babylonian Captivity" that Jews pursued afterwards and especially in Hellenistic times. Prove to me that Judaism has been around since the time of the Flood and prior, alongside and opposed to the then existing religion. And you should also prove to me that the biblical god does not regard believers and non-believers differently, and that he condemns Elijah's killing of 450 priests instead of rewarding him.

Jews are a nation. We always have been.


Yes, Jews are a nation, in the strict philological meaning of it. "Nation" from "natio,-onis", linked to the verb "nascor,-eris,natus sum,nasci" (latin) meaning "to be born". Since quite few people convert to Judaism, it is quite safe to assume that Jews are born Jew - although there are example of groups, like the Ethiopian Jews, the Bukharan and Kaifeng Jews from central Asia/China, and blonde Jews (yes, there are) who clearly aren't of purely Semitic descent.

Israel is a country. A country based on religious identity more than on ethnical identity.

Anyway, many Jews have elected to merge with their Diaspora countries, thus becoming a part of other ethnical groups - as example, the italian ethnicity includes the italian jews, since many Jews live in Italy since the fall of Carthage. Jews received edicts of toleration and emancipation by some influential pre-unitarian states, like Milan, Mantua, Ferrara, Tuscany and the Kingdom of Sardinia (Piedmont). Many italians (including catholic italians) have jewish ancestry, even if they don't know.

No.

Since they share a common heritage I would agree that, yes they are indeed a nation unto themselves.

They've more in common than many nations so yes, they are.

They've more in common than many nations...What exactly?

What exactly?

The Funk.