NationStates Jolt Archive

This isn't a slam on public school in general, but rather some musings on patriotism and the American education system.

Here in the USA, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school and what it means, and in elementary school we are basically forced to say it i nthe mornings. I'm not sure that it happens in kindergarten and first grade (since my first two years of schooling took place in the UK), but I have heard that it starts very early. After that, we learn about our nation's history-- about Columbus, Thanksgiving, the Revolution, etc. By fifth grade we know the "basics"-- that Columbus discovered the Americas while trying to find a new route to Asia, that the first Thanksgiving was when the settlers and Native Americans gave thanks that they hadn't all died by that point, that we Americans threw off the rule of the British tyrants in 1776, and the big picture about the Civil War, and the two World Wars. Oh yeah, we've also learned the national anthem, and the states.

Or have we truly learned our own history and government, rather than blind patriotism?

When I first started school the year I came back to the USA in 1998, I recall people saying "America is the land of the free" and "America is the greatest country on Earth" and "Here in America you have more rights and more things than you would anywhere else in the world." I do not remember a lot about the UK (I was only 4-6 at the time) but I do remember that I was a happy kid, had plenty of friends, was much more "normal" than I am now (after living in the USA for nearly 10 years). To be honest, the only difference I saw from the US and the UK (at age six) was that the weather was nicer, and the accents were different. Oh, and I couldn't write cursive in the US like I had learned to in the UK. I had to print in both years of second grade, since a kid is not supposed to know how to write in cursive before third grade.

But in the UK, I don't recall learning about the entire history of the UK, of all the holidays and why we celebrate them, or any pledge of allegiance to anything when I was over there. I did learn "Britishness"-- but that was because I was in the UK, not because my teachers over there weren't bent on turning out little British patriots. So why is all this patriotism and history and everything taught so early- and so much- in American schools? Did the patriotism just refuse to die down after the Revolution?

Since I have moved back here to the US, I have heard many people say "I want to join the military" or "I want to be President" so "I could do something for my country". It's amazing how few people know all 50 US states and their capitals, but still think that America has the best education in the world.

Does America truly educate its people, or is it just teaching patriotism?


NOTE: I am not saying anything about the UK's education system, but the comparisons between the US and UK schools were about patriotism rather than education. Also, the stuff about hte UK schools are done to the best of my memory. I was about 5 years old at the time, and it was about a decade ago, so my memory could be EXTREMELY fuzzy or things have changed in the UK since 1997. If anything is innaccurate, please tell me politely and don't flame.

Well? Am I at least somewhat right, or am I spouting BS?

I don't know about the other stuff, and you didnt really stay on topic but, In history classes, isn't it normal to start with local history in the early grades and slowly move outward geographically?

You're somewhat right. I learned "My Country, 'Tis of Thee" and the pledge in kindergarten. I've really always wondered what the pledge really means. It just seems a little bit like a lot of empty words.

Yes and no, really.

We're don't give any pledge of alliegence, but alot of people don't know much about British history, either, which is a shame.

I don't know about the other stuff, and you didnt really stay on topic but, In history classes, isn't it normal to start with local history in the early grades and slowly move outward geographically?
I didn't learn anything about "local" (or if you mean state) history until 4th grade.

Yes and no, really.

We're don't give any pledge of alliegence, but alot of people don't know much about British history, either, which is a shame.

I'm not against people learning about their own nation's history, I'm just against the underlying themes of patriotism.

I don't know about the other stuff, and you didnt really stay on topic but, In history classes, isn't it normal to start with local history in the early grades and slowly move outward geographically?

Seems that way. I learnt the history of my township long before we went on to national history. Even shook hands with McGreevey back when he was mayor of my township on a class trip in 3rd grade.

For the love of God, I'll take patriotism over having to take notes on the amendments again!

That can't be right. I've always heard that the US public school system hates freedom and burns Jesus in effigy.

This isn't a slam on public school in general, but rather some musings on patriotism and the American education system.

Here in the USA, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school and what it means, and in elementary school we are basically forced to say it i nthe mornings. I'm not sure that it happens in kindergarten and first grade (since my first two years of schooling took place in the UK), but I have heard that it starts very early. After that, we learn about our nation's history-- about Columbus, Thanksgiving, the Revolution, etc. By fifth grade we know the "basics"-- that Columbus discovered the Americas while trying to find a new route to Asia, that the first Thanksgiving was when the settlers and Native Americans gave thanks that they hadn't all died by that point, that we Americans threw off the rule of the British tyrants in 1776, and the big picture about the Civil War, and the two World Wars. Oh yeah, we've also learned the national anthem, and the states.

Or have we truly learned our own history and government, rather than blind patriotism?

When I first started school the year I came back to the USA in 1998, I recall people saying "America is the land of the free" and "America is the greatest country on Earth" and "Here in America you have more rights and more things than you would anywhere else in the world." I do not remember a lot about the UK (I was only 4-6 at the time) but I do remember that I was a happy kid, had plenty of friends, was much more "normal" than I am now (after living in the USA for nearly 10 years). To be honest, the only difference I saw from the US and the UK (at age six) was that the weather was nicer, and the accents were different. Oh, and I couldn't write cursive in the US like I had learned to in the UK. I had to print in both years of second grade, since a kid is not supposed to know how to write in cursive before third grade.

But in the UK, I don't recall learning about the entire history of the UK, of all the holidays and why we celebrate them, or any pledge of allegiance to anything when I was over there. I did learn "Britishness"-- but that was because I was in the UK, not because my teachers over there weren't bent on turning out little British patriots. So why is all this patriotism and history and everything taught so early- and so much- in American schools? Did the patriotism just refuse to die down after the Revolution?

Since I have moved back here to the US, I have heard many people say "I want to join the military" or "I want to be President" so "I could do something for my country". It's amazing how few people know all 50 US states and their capitals, but still think that America has the best education in the world.

Does America truly educate its people, or is it just teaching patriotism?


NOTE: I am not saying anything about the UK's education system, but the comparisons between the US and UK schools were about patriotism rather than education. Also, the stuff about hte UK schools are done to the best of my memory. I was about 5 years old at the time, and it was about a decade ago, so my memory could be EXTREMELY fuzzy or things have changed in the UK since 1997. If anything is innaccurate, please tell me politely and don't flame.

Well? Am I at least somewhat right, or am I spouting BS?

The UK has fewer national holidays than the US. Remembrance Day is well-known and many people know many others.

As for the History, we have too much to efficiently summarise (though they do their best). (British History requirements were not placed on immigration tests on the grounds "There is a lot of it").

America as a created state rather than an evolved one has a different attitude to itself. It was created (supposedly) to follow a specific set of ideals which define "America". Britain was cobbled together over the centuries due to conquest. British-ness is less easily definable than USA-ness. And due to this there is also a greater Nationalist Myth about the USA that holds in the minds of people. Because of this myth and the greater definity of what the US is about people hold stronger to it as something to be proud of and hold on to.

In the UK we're less certain and less confident (there's the lurking knowledge that we sort of screwed over a large proportion of the World when we were "great"; so there's a lingering uncomfortableness with equating that with British-ness) so less of a fuss is made of it.

Hey, Pancake, thanks for giving me somewhere to post this. Over the weekend, I worked on a JP Sousa tribute (http://www.ohmrsousa.com/) and was bawling my eyes out. The patriotic music I learned as a kid still moves me, deeply. As an adult, I've become more cynical, so the song I listened to after the show, Steppenwolf's Monster (http://www.steppenwolf.com/lyr/mnnster.html), has a different, but I think still relevant, take on our Mother Country. I think we learn patriotism in school, but I think we learn to think for ourselves, too. Could be an amazing combination, if we ever get it all together.

Wrong. We are not forced to do the pledge. You have the right to keep sitting down and not say it.

Also, what's wrong with simply learning our own history? Do you prefer that we learn another country's history instead?

Having endured the American public school system (in the suburbs of a major US midwestern city) for about 18 years (2 years kindegarten and 1st through tenth grade), I can remember a lot of US histroy and the whole saying the pledge of allegiance deal, but honestly the most knee-jerk patriotism I discovered was in my final two years of high school (in an East Coast prep school). Frankly, most of the people in the public school I knew really didn't care about the state of the country.

The only thing you MUST do during the pledge, if you choose not to say it, is to be quiet for the, what, twenty seconds?, it takes to get through it.

Wrong. We are not forced to do the pledge. You have the right to keep sitting down and not say it.

Also, what's wrong with simply learning our own history? Do you prefer that we learn another country's history instead?

basically forced to were the exact words.

Encouraged to would be a good synonym.

Encouraged, to the point where not doing it might get you a few stares depending on where you are :o

This isn't a slam on public school in general, but rather some musings on patriotism and the American education system.

Here in the USA, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school and what it means, and in elementary school we are basically forced to say it i nthe mornings. I'm not sure that it happens in kindergarten and first grade (since my first two years of schooling took place in the UK), but I have heard that it starts very early. After that, we learn about our nation's history-- about Columbus, Thanksgiving, the Revolution, etc. By fifth grade we know the "basics"-- that Columbus discovered the Americas while trying to find a new route to Asia, that the first Thanksgiving was when the settlers and Native Americans gave thanks that they hadn't all died by that point, that we Americans threw off the rule of the British tyrants in 1776, and the big picture about the Civil War, and the two World Wars. Oh yeah, we've also learned the national anthem, and the states.

Or have we truly learned our own history and government, rather than blind patriotism?

When I first started school the year I came back to the USA in 1998, I recall people saying "America is the land of the free" and "America is the greatest country on Earth" and "Here in America you have more rights and more things than you would anywhere else in the world." I do not remember a lot about the UK (I was only 4-6 at the time) but I do remember that I was a happy kid, had plenty of friends, was much more "normal" than I am now (after living in the USA for nearly 10 years). To be honest, the only difference I saw from the US and the UK (at age six) was that the weather was nicer, and the accents were different. Oh, and I couldn't write cursive in the US like I had learned to in the UK. I had to print in both years of second grade, since a kid is not supposed to know how to write in cursive before third grade.

But in the UK, I don't recall learning about the entire history of the UK, of all the holidays and why we celebrate them, or any pledge of allegiance to anything when I was over there. I did learn "Britishness"-- but that was because I was in the UK, not because my teachers over there weren't bent on turning out little British patriots. So why is all this patriotism and history and everything taught so early- and so much- in American schools? Did the patriotism just refuse to die down after the Revolution?

Since I have moved back here to the US, I have heard many people say "I want to join the military" or "I want to be President" so "I could do something for my country". It's amazing how few people know all 50 US states and their capitals, but still think that America has the best education in the world.

Does America truly educate its people, or is it just teaching patriotism?


NOTE: I am not saying anything about the UK's education system, but the comparisons between the US and UK schools were about patriotism rather than education. Also, the stuff about hte UK schools are done to the best of my memory. I was about 5 years old at the time, and it was about a decade ago, so my memory could be EXTREMELY fuzzy or things have changed in the UK since 1997. If anything is innaccurate, please tell me politely and don't flame.

Well? Am I at least somewhat right, or am I spouting BS?

Ummm...wow.
My kids learned the Pledge( I advocate Nationalism so meh)
Learned Local history
State History
National History
World History(Currently the subject of study is Africa, they covered the Middle East first because of it being forward in the news...but usually Africa comes first)
My eldest daughter has taken the glorious Civics class...I am very happy this has been brought back.
There in fifth grade she was taught her Miranda Rights and what it means to invoke them(she was also given a card that she can turn over to police officers so she doesnt have to speak at all--it states she is invoking her rights, gives her name and address and how to contact her parents) She learned about the Bill of Rights, and the Civil Rights Movement, the voting process, why exercising your vote is important, and some study of the consitution...I would be angry if these things were not covered...

Your school sounds ...fecked.

I am almost through with my public education, and i can say that you're absolutely right.

I live in one of the most patriotic, reactionary places in the country. I have no reverence for anything remotely related to this government and even view exclusive loyalty to this nation's people as selfish. Good thing I'm also ugly or people might take me seriously enough to actually attempt to cause me grief for my political beliefs.

Wrong. We are not forced to do the pledge. You have the right to keep sitting down and not say it.

Also, what's wrong with simply learning our own history? Do you prefer that we learn another country's history instead?

I was exaggerating a little on the whole "basically forced to say the Pledge" part... but at the elementary school I went to, some kids actually got sent to the office for not saying the pledge. Happened in middle school, too.

I don't have a problem with learning US history-- my OP might have sounded like it, and I wasn't trying to say that. But I have noticed some undertones of patriotism while learnign US history, and even some while learning about other countries. Basically, here's what you learn from grades 4-11:

4th grade: North Carolina geography.
5th grade: US geography.
6th grade: Europe and South America, plus the US and Canada.
7th Grade: the rest of the world.
8th grade: North Carolina/USA history.
9th grade: World history.
10: Civics and economics
11th grade: US history.

Prior to 4th it is mainly US history, and in 12th you have to take a social studies elective. This tells me something.

basically forced to were the exact words.

Encouraged to would be a good synonym.

Encouraged, to the point where not doing it might get you a few stares depending on where you are :o

Oh, the calamity. Teacher, he's looking at me.

You're forgetting that schools reflect the cultural values of the communities that they are in. The US puts a high value on the notion of patriotism due to our history, relative young age (I know 1776 seems like a long time ago, but 2 weeks ago I was walking in a building that was well over 1,000 years old and is not the oldest structure in Japan. Kinda dwarfs all US history), and the very real point that the US national culture is something rather new. Given the high immigration rate, a lot of schools were formed on the notion that a US citizen is taught how to be one rather than pick it up through just being American.

Yeah, from what I have seen, the US does teach patriotism more than other developed countries, but we haven't had our fingers burned on it yet and it serves the purposes of making citizens for now.

Oh, the calamity. Teacher, he's looking at me.
What else is new? :D

1st-4th Grades: Can't remember.
5th-South America
6th-History of the Westward expansion
7th-State History
8th-U.S. History
*Entering Catholic Prep School*
9th-History of the Old Testament
10th-(2 classes) History of the New Testament and World History
11th-(2 classes) U.S. History and History of Europe 0A.D.-Present
12th-Civics, Contemporary World Problems

Meh. I don't really feel that patriotism was forced on me. Rather, I chose it because all of the worst teachers were apathetic unpatriotic assholes.

1-4: Thanksgiving, township history, etc.
5: Can't remember
6: Ancient History
7: Geography
8: American History, 1776-end of Civil War
9: Ancient History
10: American History I, 1776-end of Civil War
11: American History II, end of Civil War-present
12: Current World Events (elective)

Now: "Making of the Modern World" Literary and artistic history in Europe (feh, WORLD my ass) from 1400s-1900s

Here in Poland, or at least in Warsaw, we are far to civilised for any nationalist nonsense.

Oh, the calamity. Teacher, he's looking at me.

What else is new? :D

My point exactly. :D

Here in Poland, or at least in Warsaw, we are far to civilised for any nationalist nonsense.

That's because of the number of times you've been taken over by someone else :p

Wrong. We are not forced to do the pledge. You have the right to keep sitting down and not say it.

Also, what's wrong with simply learning our own history? Do you prefer that we learn another country's history instead?

I was threatened with being referred to an administrator when I didn't say the pledge...

I was threatened with being referred to and administrator when I didn't say the pledge...

I've seen two kids sent to the office for not saying it-- once in elementary school, once in middle school.

I said it just so I wouldn't get in trouble for beign unpatriotic.

That's because of the number of times you've been taken over by someone else :p

Hey. we're not the only country that's been invaded countless times you know. Besides, we're still here.

we don't have a Pledge in shcool it only for those becaming a Australian

Hey. we're not the only country that's been invaded countless times you know. Besides, we're still here.

Yes, but you're the only country whose cavalry led a charge against panzers.

And yes, you're still here. For now. Muahahahahaha.

(Makes note that when he does make his bid for world domination, he'll take over Poland and head west. Thus excluding the possibility of a land war in Asia)

Yes, but you're the only country whose cavalry led a charge against panzers.

And yes, you're still here. For now. Muahahahahaha.

(Makes note that when he does make his bid for world domination, he'll take over Poland and head west. Thus excluding the possibility of a land war in Asia)

But those were old times. I am already putting toghether plans for extracting revenge on the Germans.

But those were old times. I am already putting toghether plans for extracting revenge on the Germans.

With what, perogies? :D

With what, perogies? :D

Hell, I'll send a box of Mrs. T's.

Show them Germans what's up.

The single thing I remember most of anything said during a patriotic discussion in class was when I was in third grade.

One kid brought up a little girl who had been blown to pieces in Afghanistan by an American bomb.

The single thing I remember most of anything said during a patriotic discussion in class was when I was in third grade.

One kid brought up a little girl who had been blown to pieces in Afghanistan by an American bomb.

And what was the response?

The pledge is BS and I happily haven't said it once since 7th grade, disillusioned by 9/11 and Bush. I don't know about indoctrinating rubbish, but the American public education system needs to be completely redone and federalized.

My elementary school couldn't be bothered to indoctrinate anyone, and my middle/high school was too full of smart kids for that to really work. Although my old AP Econ teacher did not hide her contempt for any type of European economic system, most of my teachers taught us to not take anything at face value (which meant a classroom full of kids writing down and furiously memorizing "do not take anything at face value" in order to ace the test), including our government and history.

It happens in Canada, too. I also lived in England (from when I was 3-9 years old) I don't think I ever had to stand for the national anthem for school, but if I did it was only a few times. But when I moved to Canada until about grade 8 I had to sing it everyday. Personally, I think that that was/is pointless. Especailly because kids got in trouble for shifting around and I mean seriously, why? At that age you don't understand nationalism/patriotism so what is the point? If you don't know why you are supposed to "feel proud of" then why would they try to make you feel that way?
It's not that you will absolutly be forced into something but at that age you can have an opinion on it and not be able to express it and be penilized for it.
It's all just pointless.

GIGANTIC OP OF PANCAKINESS

No, you're right. Very much so.

Our private schools are awesome. Our public schools are crap.

Our private schools are awesome.

Well... the bar isn't too high for them, so how could they not be (for debate purposes, religious and social ideologies and indoctrination, etc. of BOTH systems can be left aside)

Well... the bar isn't too high for them, so how could they not be (for debate purposes, religious and social ideologies and indoctrination, etc. of BOTH systems can be left aside)

Well, we have some really good schools, like Harvard or Yale.

basically forced to were the exact words.

Encouraged to would be a good synonym.

Encouraged, to the point where not doing it might get you a few stares depending on where you are :o


The horror!

Here, if you won't say this, I will say it for you:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Kustice for all.

I find the indoctrination of the pledge repulsive, and am glad there is nothing quite like it in Britain (singing the anthem occasionally doesn't come close). Concerning history the topics I remember from primary school were ancient greeks, egyptians, the tudors, elisabethians. Secondary school focused more on the industrial revolution and the two world wars, but always with a british focus I suppose.

but the American public education system needs to be completely redone and federalized.

Right, because the Federal government is fully capable of finding its own ass with a map and a flashlight.

I don't know about indoctrinating rubbish, but the American public education system needs to be completely redone and federalized.

Its precisely because the schools are not fedealized that some of us actually learned anything there.

See, the best education I received was at a private school, which was less than a mile away from some of the worst schools in America. The school I went to spent $10K less per studet per annum than the public schools did. The unofficial promise of going to my school was you would get into college no matter what. The unofficial promise of the public schools was that you'd get shivved no matter what.

I don't remember much about my first year geography, but if I recall correctly we started history with earth history, then going into human pre-history, and then basically following the timeline of European civilisation, from its roots in Mesopotamia through the several ancient empires to the Middle Ages. We only started on our national history in the second half of the second year...
Then again, that's probably a very European attitude reflected in this curriculum.

My point exactly. :D

But but! I'm so sexy! And I'm a guy! :eek:

Joking aside, I'll admit I laughed a bit inside when I heard it from someone else that someone had supposedly stared at me (I didn't even see it myself). But then, why would I care? I don't have to go there every single day.

The horror!

Here, if you won't say this, I will say it for you:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Kustice for all.

Mmm... Kustice... That's like Custard, right?

And ehm, there really is no need, since I will never say it in my entire life, since and this might be a shock for you!

I'm not American


My beef with it is that you hear it every single day and it really is so very pointless. And mind you, I only spent four days there and I already got sick of it :p

This isn't a slam on public school in general, but rather some musings on patriotism and the American education system.

Here in the USA, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school and what it means, and in elementary school we are basically forced to say it i nthe mornings. I'm not sure that it happens in kindergarten and first grade (since my first two years of schooling took place in the UK), but I have heard that it starts very early. After that, we learn about our nation's history-- about Columbus, Thanksgiving, the Revolution, etc. By fifth grade we know the "basics"-- that Columbus discovered the Americas while trying to find a new route to Asia, that the first Thanksgiving was when the settlers and Native Americans gave thanks that they hadn't all died by that point, that we Americans threw off the rule of the British tyrants in 1776, and the big picture about the Civil War, and the two World Wars. Oh yeah, we've also learned the national anthem, and the states.

Or have we truly learned our own history and government, rather than blind patriotism?

When I first started school the year I came back to the USA in 1998, I recall people saying "America is the land of the free" and "America is the greatest country on Earth" and "Here in America you have more rights and more things than you would anywhere else in the world." I do not remember a lot about the UK (I was only 4-6 at the time) but I do remember that I was a happy kid, had plenty of friends, was much more "normal" than I am now (after living in the USA for nearly 10 years). To be honest, the only difference I saw from the US and the UK (at age six) was that the weather was nicer, and the accents were different. Oh, and I couldn't write cursive in the US like I had learned to in the UK. I had to print in both years of second grade, since a kid is not supposed to know how to write in cursive before third grade.

But in the UK, I don't recall learning about the entire history of the UK, of all the holidays and why we celebrate them, or any pledge of allegiance to anything when I was over there. I did learn "Britishness"-- but that was because I was in the UK, not because my teachers over there weren't bent on turning out little British patriots. So why is all this patriotism and history and everything taught so early- and so much- in American schools? Did the patriotism just refuse to die down after the Revolution?

Since I have moved back here to the US, I have heard many people say "I want to join the military" or "I want to be President" so "I could do something for my country". It's amazing how few people know all 50 US states and their capitals, but still think that America has the best education in the world.

Does America truly educate its people, or is it just teaching patriotism?


NOTE: I am not saying anything about the UK's education system, but the comparisons between the US and UK schools were about patriotism rather than education. Also, the stuff about hte UK schools are done to the best of my memory. I was about 5 years old at the time, and it was about a decade ago, so my memory could be EXTREMELY fuzzy or things have changed in the UK since 1997. If anything is innaccurate, please tell me politely and don't flame.

Well? Am I at least somewhat right, or am I spouting BS?

Well we do have 50 states to learn, and that's a damn lot, then add D.C, Puerto rico etc etc and it gets hard. I have no problem with teaching our children patriotism and being proud of your country but we defenetley should be teaching our children, not just telling them to be patriotic.

In my school, we didn't learn history until the fourth grade. Before that, we would learn about culture. Every year our class would study about four different countries and learn about their people and culture. Some of the countries I remember (This was a very long time ago.) are Japan, Ghana and maybe Australia.

In fourth grade we learned about state history and in fifth grade we studied very basic American history. Sixth grade was ancient world history, although we did have a big unit on the Middle East, Opec, Israel and what in the world was going on over there. We also studied the three main religions of the Middle East.

Seventh grade we studied modern world history and eighth grade we studied the first half of U.S. history, in greater depth.

The first year of high school was the second half of U.S. history. Sophomore year was about government. Eleventh grade was about world history. How in depth you went was determined by what level class you were taking. Twelfth grade there was no history class required, but I still took European history anyways.

With what, perogies? :D
what makes you think that?

I think that the schools instill patrotism by teaching about our values. Americans should be proud of their history. The US is different from the UK because the US is less a pile of dirt and more of an idea. In the US we have no classes. People came from all over the world to be here and start a new life in a country where anybody can be anything. It is this cosmopolitan democracy that we celeberate. To understand this requires more education than what I imagine is taught in the UK.

I am not saying anything bad about the UK. They are great and are our best ally. But the UK's sense of patriotism comes from a love of the land and the people. Our patriotism is a lot less about the land and the people as it is about the idea.

The US has something of a unique challenge in that much of our national identity is ill defined, and culturally we are rather diverse. These are areas where other countries, especially the more traditional nation-states of Europe tend to be better defined, with some idea of what "Britishness" and "Frenchness" are. In the US there is virtually no consensus on "Americanness," oftentimes we can't even agree on the language we want to speak, so, in place of that fact, we've stuck these bizarrely Confucian national rituals to attempt to build social coherence. The Pledge of Allegiance, singing of the national anthem at sporting events and Independence Day are all self-instilled events and habits that we, as a society, have developed to create an image of identity.

It's certainly not a bad thing...it helps to build the image of the citizenry being the members of a group, and creating a level of certitude. It's not as effective, as, say, an agreed upon national attitude and identity, but it helps to create the confidence of being a member of a group, and decreases a sense of insecurity across the country.

I've pilfered liberally from Herrmann and company on this viewpoint, especially the study on national identity, and the comparisons between the US and Italy.

The US has something of a unique challenge in that much of our national identity is ill defined, and culturally we are rather diverse. These are areas where other countries, especially the more traditional nation-states of Europe tend to be better defined, with some idea of what "Britishness" and "Frenchness" are. In the US there is virtually no consensus on "Americanness," oftentimes we can't even agree on the language we want to speak, so, in place of that fact, we've stuck these bizarrely Confucian national rituals to attempt to build social coherence. The Pledge of Allegiance, singing of the national anthem at sporting events and Independence Day are all self-instilled events and habits that we, as a society, have developed to create an image of identity.

It's certainly not a bad thing...it helps to build the image of the citizenry being the members of a group, and creating a level of certitude. It's not as effective, as, say, an agreed upon national attitude and identity, but it helps to create the confidence of being a member of a group, and decreases a sense of insecurity across the country.

I've pilfered liberally from Herrmann and company on this viewpoint, especially the study on national identity, and the comparisons between the US and Italy.

I disagree. There seems to be a greater sense of American-ness than British-ness (though the French seem to have a strong idea of their culture).

In terms of definition there is the Constitution etc, and the whole American Dream thingy which the US was founded on. The ideas the US was created on appear to be a bedrock of US-ness, something solid to build on.

In Britain where the country evolved into being rather than being created there is no such bedrock and I'd say even less idea of what UK-ness is.


I think that the schools instill patrotism by teaching about our values. Americans should be proud of their history. The US is different from the UK because the US is less a pile of dirt and more of an idea. In the US we have no classes. People came from all over the world to be here and start a new life in a country where anybody can be anything. It is this cosmopolitan democracy that we celeberate. To understand this requires more education than what I imagine is taught in the UK.

The class system is alive and well in the USA. Arguably moreso than in the modern day UK. A major political topic is how to stop people you don't want coming in to the country coming in. The elections are based around a few swing states and to even get elected you have to be seen as Christian. In practice you have to be an extremely rich Christian. Hardly a cosmopolitan democracy. What you've posted here is the American Myth.

Out of interest, what do you imagine is taught in the UK?

Being an individual who has two parents who never conformed to society here in the U.S., I was taught early on about what being a 'patriot' was, and from my standpoint as a U.S. citizen who has gone through the entire public education system in this country, I can say, without a doubt, that the masses of little school children are being brainwashed into becoming a mindless, blindly patriotic work force/military force.

It's sad, really...

And what was the response?

Shock, disgust. That kind of thing.

Unfortunately, it was still at the blind-patriotism stage, so the teacher and some of the kids just wrote it off as a "sad mistake" or something along those lines.

I don't mind being patriotic, but I want to do it on my terms not anyone else's.

This isn't a slam on public school in general, but rather some musings on patriotism and the American education system.

Here in the USA, we are taught the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school and what it means, and in elementary school we are basically forced to say it i nthe mornings. I'm not sure that it happens in kindergarten and first grade (since my first two years of schooling took place in the UK), but I have heard that it starts very early. After that, we learn about our nation's history-- about Columbus, Thanksgiving, the Revolution, etc. By fifth grade we know the "basics"-- that Columbus discovered the Americas while trying to find a new route to Asia, that the first Thanksgiving was when the settlers and Native Americans gave thanks that they hadn't all died by that point, that we Americans threw off the rule of the British tyrants in 1776, and the big picture about the Civil War, and the two World Wars. Oh yeah, we've also learned the national anthem, and the states.

Or have we truly learned our own history and government, rather than blind patriotism?

When I first started school the year I came back to the USA in 1998, I recall people saying "America is the land of the free" and "America is the greatest country on Earth" and "Here in America you have more rights and more things than you would anywhere else in the world." I do not remember a lot about the UK (I was only 4-6 at the time) but I do remember that I was a happy kid, had plenty of friends, was much more "normal" than I am now (after living in the USA for nearly 10 years). To be honest, the only difference I saw from the US and the UK (at age six) was that the weather was nicer, and the accents were different. Oh, and I couldn't write cursive in the US like I had learned to in the UK. I had to print in both years of second grade, since a kid is not supposed to know how to write in cursive before third grade.

But in the UK, I don't recall learning about the entire history of the UK, of all the holidays and why we celebrate them, or any pledge of allegiance to anything when I was over there. I did learn "Britishness"-- but that was because I was in the UK, not because my teachers over there weren't bent on turning out little British patriots. So why is all this patriotism and history and everything taught so early- and so much- in American schools? Did the patriotism just refuse to die down after the Revolution?

Since I have moved back here to the US, I have heard many people say "I want to join the military" or "I want to be President" so "I could do something for my country". It's amazing how few people know all 50 US states and their capitals, but still think that America has the best education in the world.

Does America truly educate its people, or is it just teaching patriotism?


NOTE: I am not saying anything about the UK's education system, but the comparisons between the US and UK schools were about patriotism rather than education. Also, the stuff about hte UK schools are done to the best of my memory. I was about 5 years old at the time, and it was about a decade ago, so my memory could be EXTREMELY fuzzy or things have changed in the UK since 1997. If anything is innaccurate, please tell me politely and don't flame.

Well? Am I at least somewhat right, or am I spouting BS?
Well, I never grew up with flag waving, oaths of alliances, independence, revolutions and so on, so to me it seems rather odd that someone should have to (regardless of their faith, I might add) pledge allegiance to a flag every day at school. It seems, to a cynical Brit, too over the top.

I mean, (please don't flame me here) many of the things people believe about the American revolution are according to some either exaggerated or untrue. I'm going to borrow heavily from Bill Bryson here, but there is apparently no actual evidence for Patrick Henry's 'give me liberty or give me death speech' (Speaker of the House of Burgesses doesn't make note of it), just as it is supposedly unlikely that any sailor worth his salt would land at Plymouth Rock, and 'Taxation without Representation is Tyrrany' wasn't apparently invented until After the revolution. I'm not saying what I've said here is at all right, but it could well be, and because of the way it's taught, it could just become accepted as fact.

And I don't think that's the right way to teach.

In the UK, of course, it's the other way round. We don't, and can't learn any British history, because instead of being a country born out of uniting for (quite rightly) independence, the UK was united through war, money and more war designed really only to turn England into a regional empire, whether it by design or accidental. (after all, many people say England when they mean the UK). It would make teaching the 'birth' of the UK quite uninspiring.

Of course, I could be spouting crap. There just seems something wrong when people teach history in a way that could be so one sided. People should learn and decide to love their country for themselves.

The US has something of a unique challenge in that much of our national identity is ill defined, and culturally we are rather diverse. These are areas where other countries, especially the more traditional nation-states of Europe tend to be better defined, with some idea of what "Britishness" and "Frenchness" are. In the US there is virtually no consensus on "Americanness," oftentimes we can't even agree on the language we want to speak, so, in place of that fact, we've stuck these bizarrely Confucian national rituals to attempt to build social coherence. The Pledge of Allegiance, singing of the national anthem at sporting events and Independence Day are all self-instilled events and habits that we, as a society, have developed to create an image of identity.

It's certainly not a bad thing...it helps to build the image of the citizenry being the members of a group, and creating a level of certitude. It's not as effective, as, say, an agreed upon national attitude and identity, but it helps to create the confidence of being a member of a group, and decreases a sense of insecurity across the country.

I've pilfered liberally from Herrmann and company on this viewpoint, especially the study on national identity, and the comparisons between the US and Italy.
I personally can't agree wit the idea that America is less culturally defined than the UK. In fact, the UK isn't culturally defined at all - most people in the USA, by and large, consider themselves American, and proud of it. Most people in the UK don't consider themselves really British - either English, Scottish or Welsh (I won't go into NI here, being rather more complex), and there is a fair bit of ill feeling between England and the rest of the home nations - usually over political issues. People here in SE England blame Scotland for giving us Blair, and his 'evil liberal communist' government. Scotland blames England for using Scotland as a test bed for the poll tax, etc.

With the rise of regionalist politics, the government has only just tried to define Britishness as an identity, but it hasn't really worked, whereas it seems to in America. Most of the original Americans, after all, considered their Colony/State their country, not America. Its a rather interesting comparison.

I think that the schools instill patrotism by teaching about our values. Americans should be proud of their history. The US is different from the UK because the US is less a pile of dirt and more of an idea. In the US we have no classes. People came from all over the world to be here and start a new life in a country where anybody can be anything. It is this cosmopolitan democracy that we celeberate. To understand this requires more education than what I imagine is taught in the UK.
I do hope that's sarcasm.