NationStates Jolt Archive

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.


Well it worked so well during the 20s and 30s!

Source: http://www.safecommunities.org/articles/308/1/Alcohol-and-Seatbelt-Statistics

# Alcohol is a factor in nearly half of America=s murders, suicides and accidental deaths. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# Alcohol is implicated in at least 18,000 of the more than 40,000 fatalities on the nation=s highways, roads and streets at an estimated annual cost of $5.4 billion. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# As much as 50 percent of police work is spent addressing alcohol-related problems in our nation. This would mean that the annual cost to law enforcement agencies is at least $7.5 billion dollars. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# Lost productivity from alcohol-related absenteeism, illness and premature exiting of the workplace, due to death and forced retirement, amounts to more than $70 billion each year. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# As much as $92.8 billion is lost each year to the economy by products, goods and services never produced or never delivered. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# Over 40 percent of corporate CEOs who responded to one survey estimated that the use of alcohol and other drugs costs them from 1-10 percent of their payroll. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# More than one third of pedestrians killed by automobiles were legally drunk. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# The use of alcohol is associated with the leading causes of death and injury among teenagers and young adults. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# Alcohol abuse costs businesses twice as much as illegal drug use. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# A clear relationship exists between alcohol use and grade point average (GPA) among college students. Students with GPAs of D or F drink three times as much as those who earn As. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)
# Alcohol impaired drivers get behind the wheel 123 million times a year in the U.S. (Journal of the American Medical Association, January 8, 1997 edition)
# There were 82 times more drunken driving arrests in the U.S. in 1996 than in 1993. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Well it worked so well during the 20s and 30s!

Can't make that argument. If you believe that a thing can be banned (guns, drugs, alcohol), then you'll just have to accept that we went about it wrong in the 20s and 30s. Maybe if it had been a worldwide thing, people would not have smuggled liquor in from Canada and Mexico.

Yeah, because the last time the U.S banned alcohol it worked out really well for you guys, 18th Amendment and all.

I wuv alcohol.

Yeah, because the last time the U.S banned alcohol it worked out really well for you guys, 18th Amendment and all.

If the whole world banned it, we wouldn't have the smuggling from Canada like the last time! :D

* just thought I'd try a different thread topic today *

If you ban alcohol you'd better ban guns too because I'll fucking shoot somebody.

My sentiments exactly.

Ban stupid people from driving. *nods*

If you ban alcohol you'd better ban guns too because I'll fucking shoot somebody.

Alcohol causes brain damage:

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/brain/a/aa000425.htm

And that happens with normal use of alcohol over time.

Now, guns don't cause brain damage unless you shoot yourself in the head. This does not occur with normal use of a gun.

Bad people are bad people whether drunk or sober.

Can't make that argument. If you believe that a thing can be banned (guns, drugs, alcohol), then you'll just have to accept that we went about it wrong in the 20s and 30s. Maybe if it had been a worldwide thing, people would not have smuggled liquor in from Canada and Mexico.

Just because it has a negative effect in America does not mean you can go around banning it around the world. People use it for socialising, weddings, religious ceremonies and so on. Its a part of tradition, and a part of the economy. You take away alcohol, and then bars, vineyards, and alcohol producing factories will close down. Its not a logical thing to do at all.

How about we better educate people about it? That will reduce it some. Also, remove the stigma that its a "bad" thing to drink. People hear bad, and they want to do it, and they often will take it to the extremes, ie College kids getting wasted every weeknight to the point of blacking out.

Or we could exercise rationality, and responsibility when consuming alcohol...wait that would be too hard.

Just because it has a negative effect in America does not mean you can go around banning it around the world. People use it for socialising, weddings, religious ceremonies and so on. Its a part of tradition, and a part of the economy. You take away alcohol, and then bars, vineyards, and alcohol producing factories will close down. Its not a logical thing to do at all.

How about we better educate people about it? That will reduce it some. Also, remove the stigma that its a "bad" thing to drink. People hear bad, and they want to do it, and they often will take it to the extremes, ie College kids getting wasted every weeknight to the point of blacking out.

It has a negative effect everywhere in the world where people drink and drive, or drink and work with industrial machinery.

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.

perhaps when beer becomes classified as an offensive weapon then you can eqaute beer to firearms for this argument. until then, this argument sucks.

Hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahhaha

You seriously think that the whole world would ban alcohol?!

You seriously think that some of the countries in Europe known for having amazing beer with traditions dating back centuries would ban alcohol?

What the fuck are you smoking?

The same thing that Europeans are smoking when they think that Americans will give up two centuries of owning firearms...

It has a negative effect everywhere in the world where people drink and drive, or drink and work with industrial machinery.

I'd sooner ban the latter.

I make that about 42,800 traffic fatalities per year?

Maybe you should just ban cars? Face it, you're crap drivers even when sober. It might even help that obesity thing.

:p

If you ban alcohol you'd better ban guns too because I'll fucking shoot somebody.

rofl!

The US could have a War on Alcohol and bomb French vineyards.

Yeah!

The US could have a War on Alcohol and bomb French vineyards.

We could also send cruise missiles to hit the whisky distilleries in Canada, Ireland, Scotland...

Or drinking?I giggled.:p

What the fuck are you smoking?



WHat ever it is, I want some.

If the whole world banned it, we wouldn't have the smuggling from Canada like the last time! :D

* just thought I'd try a different thread topic today *
Hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahhaha

You seriously think that the whole world would ban alcohol?!

You seriously think that some of the countries in Europe known for having amazing beer with traditions dating back centuries would ban alcohol?

What the fuck are you smoking?

Also, you'd do away with a lot of the alcohol related deaths in the US if you dropped the legal drinking age. Expose people to alcohol when they're younger and in controlled environments, then they'll learn how much they can safely drink and how to be responsable with it sooner instead of waiting until they're entirely out on their own where they go about being total retards with it.

But then I think that the "total retard" factor does benefit our gene pool in a way... as long as they don't take out responsable people as well.

As much as I hate alcohol and wish it wiped off the face of the earth due to its vileness, it could never happen. People are too brainwashed into the idea that they have to have it in order to be complete.

Well, it certainly isn't a required food, from a biological standpoint.

The US could have a War on Alcohol and bomb French vineyards.

Hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahhaha

You seriously think that the whole world would ban alcohol?!

You seriously think that some of the countries in Europe known for having amazing beer with traditions dating back centuries would ban alcohol?

What the fuck are you smoking?

Or drinking?

If you ban alcohol you'd better ban guns too because I'll fucking shoot somebody.

As much as I hate alcohol and wish it wiped off the face of the earth due to its vileness, it could never happen. People are too brainwashed into the idea that they have to have it in order to be complete.

No, you just have to be already brain damaged (or a police officer) to carry a gun.

Proof? Link to some brain scans please.

I could prove that alcohol already causes brain damage (and already have provided links).

As much as I hate alcohol and wish it wiped off the face of the earth due to its vileness, it could never happen. People are too brainwashed into the idea that they have to have it in order to be complete.

The thing is people have the right to choose, and abuse(if they wwish to) the substance of their choice. Mankind has been into substance use, since mankind has been around. I can't see it stopping now.

As much as I hate alcohol and wish it wiped off the face of the earth due to its vileness, it could never happen. People are too brainwashed into the idea that they have to have it in order to be complete.

Or the fact that it would throw many economies out of wack?

Alcohol causes brain damage:

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/brain/a/aa000425.htm

And that happens with normal use of alcohol over time.

Now, guns don't cause brain damage unless you shoot yourself in the head. This does not occur with normal use of a gun.
No, you just have to be already brain damaged (or a police officer) to carry a gun.

It's not just that. Some people don't want to live their lives sober all the time. If they don't drink, they'll huff fumes, eat some interesting mushrooms, take over the counter pills or perscription pills improperly et c.

We'll obviously have to ban all that stuff, too. Kind of like banning all guins, rather than just banning some types of guns. We should ban all mind-altering substances worldwide.

Or the fact that it would throw many economies out of wack?

Banning guns in the US would inflict about 40 billion a year in lost civilian sales alone...

As much as I hate alcohol and wish it wiped off the face of the earth due to its vileness, it could never happen. People are too brainwashed into the idea that they have to have it in order to be complete.
It's not just that. Some people don't want to live their lives sober all the time. If they don't drink, they'll huff fumes, eat some interesting mushrooms, take over the counter pills or perscription pills improperly et c.

oOoOoOo... two whole centuries?!

Mankind has been brewing beer since the 7th millenium BCE. Mankind has been making beer longer than it has been making bread.

Two centuries is nothing.

Doesn't make it any less of a tradition. Ban alcohol!

oOoOoOo... two whole centuries?!

Mankind has been brewing beer since the 7th millenium BCE. Mankind has been making beer longer than it has been making bread.

Two centuries is nothing.

Heh yeah but mankind has also been finding new and intresting weaponry to kill each other since it's birth.

The same thing that Europeans are smoking when they think that Americans will give up two centuries of owning firearms...
oOoOoOo... two whole centuries?!

Mankind has been brewing beer since the 7th millenium BCE. Mankind has been making beer longer than it has been making bread.

Two centuries is nothing.

Banning guns in the US would inflict about 40 billion a year in lost civilian sales alone...

I wasn't arguing for banning guns?:confused:

Ban sex. That would solve all of our problems.

It's a fucking joke. Learn to take one.

So is this, you person with a total lack of humor! :fluffle:

Alcohol causes brain damage:

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/brain/a/aa000425.htm

And that happens with normal use of alcohol over time.


Alcoholism is not the same thing as "normal use of alcohol".

Uh... how about you move to Saudi Arabia. They've already banned alcohol there.

And yes, a two centuries' old tradition is much much less significant than 9 millenia of tradition.

No, I want the same worldwide ban everywhere!

Proof? Link to some brain scans please.

I could prove that alcohol already causes brain damage (and already have provided links).
It's a fucking joke. Learn to take one.

It's a fucking joke. Learn to take one.

Uh... how about you move to Saudi Arabia. They've already banned alcohol there.

And yes, a two centuries' old tradition is much much less significant than 9 millenia of tradition.
Oh, the irony! :p

Guys, I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm. (right?)

Doesn't make it any less of a tradition. Ban alcohol!
Uh... how about you move to Saudi Arabia. They've already banned alcohol there.

And yes, a two centuries' old tradition is much much less significant than 9 millenia of tradition.

Oh, the irony! :p

Guys, I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm. (right?)

So is this, you person with a total lack of humor! :fluffle:
*is smug in being the only one who noticed*

So is this, you person with a total lack of humor! :fluffle:
I'm pretty sure people have made similar threads with completely serious intentions....


and holy time warp, Batman!

The Halocaust.

Halocaust made me giggle.:D

American solution for everything-

BAN it.

I don't like alcohol, ban it.
I don't like guns, ban it.
I don't like drugs, kill those caught using/ supplying them.
I don't like homosexuals, ban them.
I don't like naughty materials/ sexual materials, ban them.
I don't like the smell of cigarette smoke, ban them.
I don't like people who drive horribly, ban them.
I don't like "The Church of Satan," ban it.
I don't like religion, ban it.

Wait, where'd that last one come from?

Oh, WELL, if you look closer into deaths and murder, you will find that RELIGION is responsible for quite a few deaths. Actually, more than your alcohol and smoking combined.

HOW?

Well, a few examples are all I need, not to mention there are thousands more occuring modern-day and in history.

The Halocaust.
Unrest in the Middle East.
September 11th, 2002.

We're already over ten million from the first two.

Care to keep whistling dixie?
:sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

The Halocaust.


Goddam Covenant

American solution for everything-

BAN it.


Love those smileys. We should ban those, too.

Also, you'll notice that other countries have a long tradition of banning things as well....

Goddam Covenant
Never forget the three million dead at Harvest. :mad:

Oh dear, does "Intelistan" have a bit of a chip on his shoulder?
Your lovely arguement on religion aside, can you prove that religion has killed more people than alcahol?
I beleive it was pointed out earlier that people have been brewing beer since 6000 BC or so. Cumulative deaths over that long a period are nothing to sniff at.

Love those smileys. We should ban those, too.

Also, you'll notice that other countries have a long tradition of banning things as well....

Unfortunantly not a single one of them banned idiocy :(

Oh dear, does "Intelistan" have a bit of a chip on his shoulder?
Your lovely arguement on religion aside, can you prove that religion has killed more people than alcahol?
I beleive it was pointed out earlier that people have been brewing beer since 6000 BC or so. Cumulative deaths over that long a period are nothing to sniff at.
Natural selection. Those who succumb to alcohol poisoning early in the orgy don't get to pass on their genes.

Natural selection. Those who succumb to alcohol poisoning early in the orgy don't get to pass on their genes.

May I compliment you on your brilliant use of Darwin's theorem?

You'll get my beer when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers :p

American solution for everything-

BAN it.

I don't like alcohol, ban it.
I don't like guns, ban it.
I don't like drugs, kill those caught using/ supplying them.
I don't like homosexuals, ban them.
I don't like naughty materials/ sexual materials, ban them.
I don't like the smell of cigarette smoke, ban them.
I don't like people who drive horribly, ban them.
I don't like "The Church of Satan," ban it.
I don't like religion, ban it.

Wait, where'd that last one come from?

Oh, WELL, if you look closer into deaths and murder, you will find that RELIGION is responsible for quite a few deaths. Actually, more than your alcohol and smoking combined.

HOW?

Well, a few examples are all I need, not to mention there are thousands more occuring modern-day and in history.

The Halocaust.
Unrest in the Middle East.
September 11th, 2002.

We're already over ten million from the first two.

Care to keep whistling dixie?
:sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:



Ohh what a way to threadnap.

While we're being pedantic though, I think the biggest killer of them all is simply put man. Religoin has been used as an excuse to kill, money has been used as an excuse to kill, jelousy has been used as an excuse to kill, freedom has been used as an excuse to kill.... well you get the picture.

Never forget the three million dead at Harvest. :mad:

Or those who lost their lives on Reach. NEVER FORGET!

You'll get my beer when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers :p

Umm or should that read 'you'll get my cold beer when you pry it from my dead fingers':D

May I compliment you on your brilliant use of Darwin's theorem?
Sure. I like compliments. :)

Oh, WELL, if you look closer into deaths and murder, you will find that RELIGION is responsible for quite a few deaths. Actually, more than your alcohol and smoking combined.

HOW?

Well, a few examples are all I need, not to mention there are thousands more occuring modern-day and in history.

The Halocaust.

So you're saying the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust?

So you're saying the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust?

*sigh* The Nazi's were Christians.

Sure. I like compliments. :)

Well, you have mine in this case ;)

Well, you have mine in this case ;)
Hooray! :D

*sigh* The Nazi's were Christians.

What about the Muslim Nazis, were they Christians too?

This thread is funny, because in both cases (i.e. guns and alcohol) it is not the presence of the thing that is so bad, but the US glorification thereof.

Just like many other countries have more guns per capita than the US, yet somehow have a much lower rate of gun violence, so do many countries have much looser alcohol laws and less trouble with alcoholism and related problems.

In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80 deaths every day.

Source (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm)

Compared to the UK:


2005/06 50

This figure means there were 50 gun homicides in a year.

Source (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm)


We're down to:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms.

The trend has been continually downward...

Oh dear, does "Intelistan" have a bit of a chip on his shoulder?
Your lovely arguement on religion aside, can you prove that religion has killed more people than alcahol?
I beleive it was pointed out earlier that people have been brewing beer since 6000 BC or so. Cumulative deaths over that long a period are nothing to sniff at.

Hehe, well, I suppose you could try to point out how many primitive men have died in drunken bar fights and drunk driving incidents (chariots are hard to drive while drunk), but I believe I did forget about raging alcoholics carrying clubs instead of being at clubs. And yes, before alcohol cavemen would beat each other on the head for worshipping the wrong rock. Or maybe one urinated on the sacred tree. "Humans" have believed in religion since neanderthals, way before homosapien figured out how to even build a wheel. Let alone make anything to drink besides scooping water out of the holy river of life.

Regardless, this notion of banning "bad" things plays on human existence. We are animals that have existed with alcohol for a long time. Dogs, bred from wolves, still have a tendancy to circle around to flatten grass before lying down on carpet or tile. Stopping this behaviour is possible, providing the dog never lies in tall grass when it needs to flatten it.

Alcohol is used to cloud judgement for specific reasons- some use it to feel happy when suffering from sadness, others use it to remove shyness in social situations, others use it to look dignified in high-society gatherings, others use it as en excuse to meet with family. Some might use it only the reccommended amount per day because it is healthy, others might use it constantly because they hate themselves outright. Some use it because they're underage and they get a rush by defying society and authority, others use it because they are simply drinking it as "the blood of Christ." Whereas some people use it just because it's available and "what you do" when you go out with friends. Some use it just to get "in the right mood" for fighting, others for sex. Insomniacs use it to attempt sleep during a sleepless night, unless on medication. Others use it for mixing with pills foir suicide, while some use it completely for cooking.

So, if we cut these things out of a person's life, it will be possible to remove alcohol. But if people remember how alcohol affected them, they will seek out methods to obtain that "fix." The same way a dog will try to figure out a new way to flatten grass if he wishes to lie down.

Yeah, other countries do ban things. Ireland? Saudi Arabia? But as an American I hear our foolishness much more. I live in the bible belt of the US, and all I hear is complaining.

I think the problem is that you're crap drivers, it isn't the booze. I was going to do some (not very) clever statistical analysis, but I don't have to bother:
# 3,201 people were killed on Britain's roads in 2005

# Provisional estimates indicate that the number of deaths in accidents involving drink driving was 560
(Source (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/accidents/casualtiesgbar/roadcasualtiesgreatbritain2005))

17.5% of our road deaths in 2005 were due to alcohol. You're twice as bad at driving pissed as us!

So you're saying the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust?

No, my people were. Religion was the reason we killed them. Interpret, don't just read.

No, my people were. Religion was the reason we killed them. Interpret, don't just read.

Surly you mean religion was the justifaction used?

Stop making up your enemies, I don't think there is actually on here who thinks a full scale gun ban is practical.

No, my people were. Religion was the reason we killed them. Interpret, don't just read.

Was religion also the reason for killing the trade unionists, Romanies, communists, homosexuals and so on?

Bugger off you raving ascetic. Guess what, smoking causes death too, as do automobiles, DIY tools and stairs. Should we forthwith ban them?

In any case, surely the precedent of prohibition defeats this suggestion?

So is this, you person with a total lack of humor! :fluffle:

Bugger off you raving ascetic. Guess what, smoking causes death too, as do automobiles, DIY tools and stairs. Should we forthwith ban them?

In any case, surely the precedent of prohibition defeats this suggestion?
:rolleyes:

It was the main justification. Were they Jews, or just a bunch of people with big noses Germans didn't like? Jews were blamed, by Hitler and seeded into the minds of Germans, for Germany's failure and poverty. After all, they had all the banks and stores where Germans bought stuff.

BTW, did you notice all the stereotyping of Jews? I hope you did.

Sooo the point is is wasn't becuase of religion, but religion was used as an excuse.

Surly you mean religion was the justifaction used?

It was the main justification. Were they Jews, or just a bunch of people with big noses Germans didn't like? Jews were blamed, by Hitler and seeded into the minds of Germans, for Germany's failure and poverty. After all, they had all the banks and stores where Germans bought stuff.

BTW, did you notice all the stereotyping of Jews? I hope you did.

Was religion also the reason for killing the trade unionists, Romanies, communists, homosexuals and so on?

Hehe, no, but since we already had wonderful Jew Ash Factories, why not throw everything we hate in there too?

"We hate alcohol and want to ban it. Hell, while we're at it lets ban cigarettes and caffeine too!"

So, in the above statement, what was the cause of the smoking ban?

(Sorry, not multiple choice.)

Ummm... Did you read that? They STEREOTYPED Jews. It's like hating black people because they all sell drugs, shoot people, and steal everything they see.

So, you don't HATE black people, you just don't like them selling drugs, shooting people, and stealing things?

I think we have our wires crossed man. I was refering to the statement that sombody made about religion being the bigest killer, I said no religion has been used as an excuse, but then so have many other things.

Heh I have no idea what you are talking 'bout? The evils of sterotyping?

perhaps when beer becomes classified as an offensive weapon then you can eqaute beer to firearms for this argument. until then, this argument sucks.

everything after this is superfluous.

Sooo the point is is wasn't becuase of religion, but religion was used as an excuse.

Ummm... Did you read that? They STEREOTYPED Jews. It's like hating black people because they all sell drugs, shoot people, and steal everything they see.

So, you don't HATE black people, you just don't like them selling drugs, shooting people, and stealing things?

Ummm... Did you read that? They STEREOTYPED Jews. It's like hating black people because they all sell drugs, shoot people, and steal everything they see.

So, you don't HATE black people, you just don't like them selling drugs, shooting people, and stealing things?
Um... you can't claim that religion is evil and has caused many deaths when those deaths are the result of people being prejudiced against a particular religion. :rolleyes: That's like saying black people caused slavery.

I think the problem is that you're crap drivers, it isn't the booze. I was going to do some (not very) clever statistical analysis, but I don't have to bother:

(Source (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/accidents/casualtiesgbar/roadcasualtiesgreatbritain2005))

17.5% of our road deaths in 2005 were due to alcohol. You're twice as bad at driving pissed as us!

or people in the UK are just twice as bad at driving sober.

(probably not twice, but i don't feel like thinking)

If the whole world banned it, we wouldn't have the smuggling from Canada like the last time! :D

* just thought I'd try a different thread topic today *

Same shit, different spoon.

Same shit, different spoon.

Now I'm confussed? I thought there was no spoon?

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).
I know you're not serious, but why not? With all alcohol costs society, all the detrimental health effects and all the alcohol induced violence and accidents, it would be a benefit to society if it disappeared. If it had been introduced today... Hell, it would never have been introduced today, it is a poison. Cannabis would be legal before alcohol would.

(Though guns are worse, because they are used as a direct tool to kill other people. It's not easy to kill people directly with alcohol. But for the record, I don't think that guns can be banned in the US.)

And now that Boris Yeltsin is dead, we frankly have no more use for vodka :)
The same thing that Europeans are smoking when they think that Americans will give up two centuries of owning firearms...
...or when they think that people will give up smoking or accept restrictions on where they can smoke. Oh wait!
As much as I hate alcohol and wish it wiped off the face of the earth due to its vileness, it could never happen. People are too brainwashed into the idea that they have to have it in order to be complete.
I believe this too...
Or the fact that it would throw many economies out of wack?
Like when people quit smoking... After all, the economy trumps health and safety any day of the week :)
We're down to:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

The trend has been continually downward...
Actually, it's been on the rise again the last two years, hasn't it? Not much, but going upwards...

Um... you can't claim that religion is evil and has caused many deaths when those deaths are the result of people being prejudiced against a particular religion. :rolleyes: That's like saying black people caused slavery.

Do you extend this argument to reliion as a whole, or simply debate within the limited context of the holocaust?

As it happens, religion is not inherently evil, as much as those who interpret it for "evil" ends are misguided, if not singularly ignorant, and instilled with a "religious zeal" that simply removes any moral inhibitions from their conduct.

I know you're not serious, but why not? With all alcohol costs society, all the detrimental health effects and all the alcohol induced violence and accidents, it would be a benefit to society if it disappeared. If it had been introduced today... Hell, it would never have been introduced today, it is a poison. Cannabis would be legal before alcohol would.

(Though guns are worse, because they are used as a direct tool to kill other people. It's not easy to kill people directly with alcohol. But for the record, I don't think that guns can be banned in the US.)

And now that Boris Yeltsin is dead, we frankly have no more use for vodka :)

...or when they think that people will give up smoking or accept restrictions on where they can smoke. Oh wait!

I believe this too...

Like when people quit smoking... After all, the economy trumps health and safety any day of the week :)

Actually, it's been on the rise again the last two years, hasn't it? Not much, but going upwards...

Not at a rate that would make a percentage difference against an increasing population.

It's still far, far lower than it was in 1993, for example, on a per capita basis.

I suggest that we also ban alcohol.
I would agree that a culture that did not need alcohol would be a great thing to have. I also certainly would agree that heavier restrictions need to be placed on the production, marketing and sale of alcohol; binge drinking is, at least in the UK, a serious problem. But the question is, if not alcohol, then what? Can we come up with other methods of fulfilling the same needs that our social relaxant provides? Can we find some way of allowing the disenfranchised in our society to escape themselves in the company of their good mates without endangering those around them?

If you do intend to ban alcohol, I would suggest that funding go into research to answer this question, just as it should with the equivalent proposition on gun control.

Nah, don't. Alcohol makes life interesting, if a bit shorter.

or people in the UK are just twice as bad at driving sober.

(probably not twice, but i don't feel like thinking)

Actually, no.

UK: 3,201 deaths/60 million people(ish) = approx. 53 fatalities per million people.

US: 42,800 deaths/300 million people(ish) = approx. 143 fatalities per million people.

And there's enough leeway there to let us subtract the US's drunk-driving score, assuming none of those fatalities would've occurred without alcohol (giving us 26,108 fatalities), do the same sum and get about 87 fatalities per million people. So they're still worse than we are even with booze ;)

Which was the point I wanted to make in the first place. Thank you :)

I think we have our wires crossed man. I was refering to the statement that sombody made about religion being the bigest killer, I said no religion has been used as an excuse, but then so have many other things.

Heh I have no idea what you are talking 'bout? The evils of sterotyping?

I agree, we do have something crossed here. You're trying to say religion was only an excuse, not the reason the hatred was bred. If someone stereotypes a person because of their religion, that person's religion was the direct reason that person received the sterotype. Not because he walks funny or has stupid shoes, but because of his religion. Now, if that person is slated to be killed because of the stereotype, that stament below is considered true:

religion= stereotype = death

The religion begat the stereotype which begat the death sentence.

Without the religion, no sterotype means no death sentence.

Therefore, religion caused the death sentence.

And thats just covering the Halocaust. Iraq, Sunnis and Shiites are STILL killing each other, even after we go over and play big dumbass brother.
Palestine, Muslims are still fighting Jews for freedom. Palestiniations that are blowing themselves up think every Isreali is a Jew, when in fact there are also Christian Isrealis.

Crusades.
Tribal wars.
Slavery. (Exodus from the history book)
Executions. (Salem witch trials, Joan of Arc)
Genocide.
Mass murder. (Bosnia)
Spanish Inquisition.
Christian Lion Feedings. (lions ate the christians)

History is filled with death for religion, and you don't find much in the way of alcohol related deaths.

binge drinking is, at least in the UK, a serious problem.
Absolutely. It's as rife as it is in almost all of the countries on the same latitude as our land of hope, opportunity and bloody awful weather.

Without alcohol, which is essentially a survival tool up this far north (I'm in a fairly northern bit of England, and the further you go north the worse it generally becomes), people would go fairly crazy essentially because of the constant pressure of city life combined with said bloody awful weather and the fairly hostile people that live in these here parts.

See also the great states of Finland, Ireland and Sweden, not to mention Russia, which have similar problems to us, tackled in a slightly different way to our own somewhat laissez-faire attitude to drinking.
Can we come up with other methods of fulfilling the same needs that our social relaxant provides?
Nature has done so. See cannabis.
Can we find some way of allowing the disenfranchised in our society to escape themselves in the company of their good mates without endangering those around them?
That would be pretty handy, but it's not going to happen, really. Ever.

Either by the chemical nature of whatever it is people start taking, or simply because as a state, no country can afford to have a working class that doesn't... well... work. Or indeed any class that doesn't do their job to the best of their abilities.

If you start giving out euphoria in a bottle, people are going to be hooked on it, and the thought of having to go back to work doesn't seem particularly appealing any more, especially if there's no risk involved.

I agree, we do have something crossed here. You're trying to say religion was only an excuse, not the reason the hatred was bred. If someone stereotypes a person because of their religion, that person's religion was the direct reason that person received the sterotype. Not because he walks funny or has stupid shoes, but because of his religion. Now, if that person is slated to be killed because of the stereotype, that stament below is considered true:


Ahhhh got ya. Okay I understand what you mean. Heh I disagree but now I know what we are on about.


religion= stereotype = death

The same though can be said of almost any differance.

Black=sterotype=death.
or
Goth=sterotype=death.



The religion begat the stereotype which begat the death sentence.

Without the religion, no sterotype means no death sentence.

Therefore, religion caused the death sentence.

And thats just covering the Halocaust.

If you are trying to eqaute the holocaust with religion you are barking up the wrong tree. It was more about control of a nation. Religoin was used as tool to gain that control, as an excuse. What about the gays, and the handicapped that were also killed?

Is it then a case of: Therefore homosexuality caused the death sentance, or therefore physical or mental disabilities caused the death sentance?


Iraq, Sunnis and Shiites are STILL killing each other, even after we go over and play big dumbass brother.
Palestine, Muslims are still fighting Jews for freedom. Palestiniations that are blowing themselves up think every Isreali is a Jew, when in fact there are also Christian Isrealis.


This is true, but you need to log long adn hard at the history of these regions to find out why.


Crusades.
Tribal wars.
Slavery. (Exodus from the history book)
Executions. (Salem witch trials, Joan of Arc)
Genocide.
Mass murder. (Bosnia)
Spanish Inquisition.
Christian Lion Feedings. (lions ate the christians)

History is filled with death for religion, and you don't find much in the way of alcohol related deaths.

Politics
Land
Mythology
Scared people
Scared people(scarded of the Catholic church)
Their own stupid fault for denying the existance of Roman Gods

Not at a rate that would make a percentage difference against an increasing population.

Four percentile points higher in 2005 (68%), while the total number of homicides increased with 555 per year.

And there were a total of 1,4% more homicides in 2006, according to FBI's Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report...

As I said, turning upwards ever so slowly. Will be interesting to see how it developes.

It's still far, far lower than it was in 1993, for example, on a per capita basis.
Yeah, the 90s were a strange decade, because that goes for the british numbers as well IIRC.

*RELIGIOUS POST*
Oh please don't get this into an Israel-Palestine or Religion-based thread. Let's stick to the topic, alright?

Nature has done so. See cannabis.

Apparently it's a lot less bad for you than alcohol...

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.
I couldn't agree more.

*MORE OF THIS RELIGIOUS CRAP
Enough already, you fools! Don't hijack the thread!
Apparently it's a lot less bad for you than alcohol...
Supposedly so indeed.

Um... you can't claim that religion is evil and has caused many deaths when those deaths are the result of people being prejudiced against a particular religion. :rolleyes: That's like saying black people caused slavery.

Ha, you're following all wrong. Slavery of the black people is a bad example, I'll get to that shortly.

I'm not saying it's the Jews fault for being Jewish. If you want to apply the logic I'm not using, like you are, it's like blaming people who drink alcohol for drunk driving incidents. The blacks didn't cause slavery the same way people that drink don't cause drunk driving accidents.

Confused? Well, I drank this past Friday, and I didn't kill anyone. However, I'm sure that Friday somewhere someone was killed due to a drunk driver. Should we ban it because one guy is a jackass?

Now, when it comes to slavery, there were black people in Africa kidnapping Africans to sell to the white man. We didn't steal them for slaves because they stole things and shot people, we took them because they were primitive, and they were for sale. Plus really hard laborers. It wasn't until they were slaves for a long period where racist sterotypes were developed.

All I'm saying is the notion to blame alcohol directly for these problems is like blaming religion. Some people use alcohol correctly. Others use alcohol to kill others and themselves.

Some people use religion correctly. Others use religion to kill others and themselves.

I firmly belive in the Greek methodology- fly the middle course. Every problem you solve creates two more problems. You have to accept the human nature of good vs evil. Sure, some will die and some will live. You can't stop the balance of the earth. Nature proves time and time again, you cannot stop "evil" entirely. Look at disease- we're experiencing epdidemics that we though medical science would end. The World Wars- the war to end all wars? Conflict is human, and is necessary for life. Without conflict there is no reason for life to exist.

Ahhhh got ya. Okay I understand what you mean. Heh I disagree but now I know what we are on about.



The same though can be said of almost any differance.

Black=sterotype=death.
or
Goth=sterotype=death.



If you are trying to eqaute the holocaust with religion you are barking up the wrong tree. It was more about control of a nation. Religoin was used as tool to gain that control, as an excuse. What about the gays, and the handicapped that were also killed?

Is it then a case of: Therefore homosexuality caused the death sentance, or therefore physical or mental disabilities caused the death sentance?





This is true, but you need to log long adn hard at the history of these regions to find out why.



Politics
Land
Mythology
Scared people
Scared people(scarded of the Catholic church)
Their own stupid fault for denying the existance of Roman Gods

I see what you're saying. But, I disagree. Without a target, the Halocaust couldn't have happened on such a large scale. Instead, if Judaism didn't exist, we'd have dead homosexuals and gypsies.

Crusades- If the Church didn't exist, the "Holy Land" would be another pile of dirt with Arabs standing on top of it. European christians wouldn't care if Jerusalem exploded, let alone even have a presence so far away for no reason. The city doesn't have any needed resources, and probably would have been abandoned a long time ago.

Tribal warfare would be unecessary, somewhat. Tribes could assimilate easier if they were exactly the same. It would be more or less similar to feudal ages where everyone was christian- we'll marry off our daughters and we're one bigger tribe. Sure, there'd be fights for other reasons, but wouldn't be quite so profound.

Their fault for denying existence of Roman Gods- last time I checked, that IS religion.

Yes, people were scared. OF? You're digging partially down. The prosecutions were made by god-fearing people who didn't understand people that didn't worship their God. You have to go down to the roots, the core-

Which is my point. People are blaming alcohol for killing people and ruining lives. Why are they drinking day in and out? Why did they get in the car, knowing they could barely walk to it? There are underlying reasons that need to be addressed. Banning alcohol is like putting a self-adhesive bandange on a deep knife wound. It's going to bleed out. You have to actually DEAL with the issue, not fire a quick fix to solve it. No one wants to get their hands dirty, they just want to sneeze, scream a bit at those who say "Not a good idea," then sit back and belive they should go down in history books for "saving the world." Next thing they know, things get ten times worse, and they wash their hands of the situation and pretend nothing happened.

You need to analyze a situation, not look at it.

Enough already, you fools! Don't hijack the thread!

Supposedly so indeed.

Grrr. I'm not. Read them. Seriously.

Ban your face.

You gun nuts make me simultaneously vomit and laugh with derision.

Ban your face.

mmmm daaayaaaammmmm!!!

Ban your face.

A bit rude, don't you think?

I'm trying to make a point, support it, point those who misunderstood in the right direction, fully define it, then summarize it once all the dust settles.

I'm sorry you disagree with me, or do not like the fact that I haven't posted 4,000 one-liners and useless strings of text and have a pretty title.

The thread was never hi-jacked with religion. I never said my god's better than yours, free palestine, added a string of curse words, or insulted anyone. I simply tried to show banning alcohol was similar to banning religion. A few people went south when I went north, so I stopped, back-tracked, and posted signs showing them where I was going. We got there, and ta-da its done.

Just because someone read three words into a post and popped an artery doesn't mean I'm the one who should pay. Please don't crash airplanes into me. :(

The same thing that Europeans are smoking when they think that Americans will give up two centuries of owning firearms...

difference is europeans rarely talk about banning guns. There is not a single european nation (that i can think of) where guns are banned. We just think there should be controls.

In regards to alcohol. Certain types are banned. Such as absinth.
Also there is control over the the alcohol % and so on.

EDIT: meant to say certain original types of absinth are banned. Version with controlled ingredients is legal

Actually, no.

UK: 3,201 deaths/60 million people(ish) = approx. 53 fatalities per million people.

US: 42,800 deaths/300 million people(ish) = approx. 143 fatalities per million people.

And there's enough leeway there to let us subtract the US's drunk-driving score, assuming none of those fatalities would've occurred without alcohol (giving us 26,108 fatalities), do the same sum and get about 87 fatalities per million people. So they're still worse than we are even with booze ;)

Which was the point I wanted to make in the first place. Thank you :)

One might also argue that people in the US drive far more than people in the UK, and that it would be totally unreasonable to expect a higher accident/fatality ratio, simply based off of per capita driving time. ;)

There's this whole book whose title is "How to lie with statistics." Numbers are shockingly flexible.

....get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.

because that really fuckin worked with the drugs.....

In regards to alcohol. Certain types are banned. Such as absinth.
Also there is control over the the alcohol % and so on.

absinth is banned? i thought it was unbanned not that long ago, a friend of mine said he drunk it.
and are you sure they control the alcohol %? i know that they tax it, but i don't know if there is an upper limit.

I think the problem is that you're crap drivers, it isn't the booze. I was going to do some (not very) clever statistical analysis, but I don't have to bother:

(Source (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/accidents/casualtiesgbar/roadcasualtiesgreatbritain2005))

17.5% of our road deaths in 2005 were due to alcohol. You're twice as bad at driving pissed as us!

well of course.
we can get legally rat-assed at 16 and then drive legally at 18

In the US you can legally drive at 16 but can't get legally rat-assed till 21!!!

absinth is banned? i thought it was unbanned not that long ago, a friend of mine said he drunk it.


Certainly its legal in Britain/Ireland...

It did not work in the 1920's/30's, it won't work now.

Also, people die on staircases. Let's ban those too.

well of course.
we can get legally rat-assed at 16 and then drive legally at 18

In the US you can legally drive at 16 but can't get legally rat-assed till 21!!!

You have no idea how many times I've argued that very point...

absinth is banned? i thought it was unbanned not that long ago, a friend of mine said he drunk it.
and are you sure they control the alcohol %? i know that they tax it, but i don't know if there is an upper limit.

In the case of absinth, in the EU the 'holy trinity' ingrediants are contolled. I believe its illegal to import absinth into the US.

The alcohol % can be controlled through distillation.

Certainly its legal in Britain/Ireland...

The Thujone though is kept to 10mg though. The real stuff has a far higher concentration. I believe its an eu regulation

absinth is banned? i thought it was unbanned not that long ago, a friend of mine said he drunk it.
and are you sure they control the alcohol %? i know that they tax it, but i don't know if there is an upper limit.

The sale of absinthe is banned. You can buy kits and make it yourself. However, wormwood is poison and can kill you if you botch making it. Yes, they control how strong alcohol can be. Which is why absinthe is banned, it's just really strong alcohol. No, you don't hallucinate. You get drunk and make up stories about hallucinating. You also can't legally make your own alcohol over a certain proof, which makes the kit slightly illegal too.

The sale of absinthe is banned. You can buy kits and make it yourself. However, wormwood is poison and can kill you if you botch making it. Yes, they control how strong alcohol can be. Which is why absinthe is banned, it's just really strong alcohol. No, you don't hallucinate. You get drunk and make up stories about hallucinating. You also can't legally make your own alcohol over a certain proof, which makes the kit slightly illegal too.

hmmm, i know that you can't distil you're own alcohol, because that way they wouldn't be able to tax you. and i just checked wiki and it isn't banned in the EU because it isn't as poisonous as they thought.

hmmm, i know that you can't distil you're own alcohol, because that way they wouldn't be able to tax you. and i just checked wiki and it isn't banned in the EU because it isn't as poisonous as they thought.

Oh no, we can brew our own beer perfectly legally. No alcohol can be brewed "home made" over 8% and be sold. There are some special rules for wine, but I don't know them.

EDIT: Oops, you can't even sell alcohol without a permit. So, you can brew beer up to 8% and drink it yourself, or obtain a license and sell it yourself.

Oh no, we can brew our own beer perfectly legally. No alcohol can be brewed "home made" over 8% and be sold. There are some special rules for wine, but I don't know them.

yes, but beer isn't distilled. i think you can make everything as long as it isn't distilled, so you automatically have a maximum (+-15% when the yeast dies)

Haha. Congrats, RO. For once, pro-gun satire that actually makes sense. Kudos.

Not only that, but we get to argue about alcohol, which hasn't been done in a while.

yes, but beer isn't distilled. i think you can make everything as long as it isn't distilled, so you automatically have a maximum (+-15% when the yeast dies)

Oh yeah, good call.

After lunch i usually start slowing down brain processes to make the remaining four hours fly by. Sometimes too quick.

Haha. Congrats, RO. For once, pro-gun satire that actually makes sense. Kudos.

One might also argue that people in the US drive far more than people in the UK, and that it would be totally unreasonable to expect a higher accident/fatality ratio, simply based off of per capita driving time. ;)

There's this whole book whose title is "How to lie with statistics." Numbers are shockingly flexible.

Amusingly, that was the basic message in my second University statistics lecture.
And it wasn't "lying" so much as "I didn't even think of that", I'm afraid...
You fancy doing the maths on that one? I have no idea where to get the numbers. And do you mean "reasonable" rather than "unreasonable"?

And that doesn't explain your proportion of alcohol-related driving fatalities being twice as high as ours, but I was mostly just prodding at RO because he, in his various guises, enjoys prodding the UK whenever he can. Generally without basis, and often just to say "The NHS is shit" or "guns are necessary for civilised society" (with the occasional "Muslims have conquered Britain and turned it into a fundamentalist islamic state" for giggles), so if I got my basis wrong then the Dark Gods of Irony are happy. I'm actually with Gravlen when he says that he doesn't think guns'll be banned in the US, but that doesn't mean I want all the prats herabouts to get gunned up. But, fortunately, that won't happen either.

well of course.
we can get legally rat-assed at 16 and then drive legally at 18

In the US you can legally drive at 16 but can't get legally rat-assed till 21!!!
In the UK you can drive at 17 and buy alcohol at 18. The drinking age is a bit more complex, I think ("with meals", etc.). And it's not like anyone heeds it anyway.

In the UK you can drive at 17 and buy alcohol at 18. The drinking age is a bit more complex, I think ("with meals", etc.). And it's not like anyone heeds it anyway.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/YourChildsHealth/DG_10026210

tell me about it.

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.

I don't have time to read over this whole thread. People like you will take all the vices out of this world until all we have left is porridge and sermons. That's right... Quaker Oats and Quakers. I will not live in your nightmare world.

I don't have time to read over this whole thread. People like you will take all the vices out of this world until all we have left is porridge and sermons. That's right... Quaker Oats and Quakers. I will not live in your nightmare world.Psst. It's satire. ;)

Psst. It's satire. ;)

I don't even like prohibition in my satire. It's just wrong.

*hugs beer*

# Alcohol is a factor in nearly half of America=s murders, suicides and accidental deaths. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

This requires people getting drunk, which means they are abusing the alcohol, nut using it. The solution? Make people drink more responsibly.

# Alcohol is implicated in at least 18,000 of the more than 40,000 fatalities on the nation=s highways, roads and streets at an estimated annual cost of $5.4 billion. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Most of which I will assume are while being drunk, but some obviously because people aren't careful enough after drinking two beers (and not being drunk). The solution? Make people party more responsible, such that they always have a non-drunk driver.

# As much as 50 percent of police work is spent addressing alcohol-related problems in our nation. This would mean that the annual cost to law enforcement agencies is at least $7.5 billion dollars. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Obviously, campaigns to reduce alcohol's impact is going to continue this amount of money. I can't make any argument for or against here.

# Lost productivity from alcohol-related absenteeism, illness and premature exiting of the workplace, due to death and forced retirement, amounts to more than $70 billion each year. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Another case of drinking at the wrong place, wrong time. Responsibility people!

# As much as $92.8 billion is lost each year to the economy by products, goods and services never produced or never delivered. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Meh, watch office space. This is so much more than alcohol.

# Over 40 percent of corporate CEOs who responded to one survey estimated that the use of alcohol and other drugs costs them from 1-10 percent of their payroll. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

As above with the drinking during work. Responsibility is the key issue here.

# More than one third of pedestrians killed by automobiles were legally drunk. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Again - not being responsible with drinking sucks! If you are going to get drunk, do so in a safe place, with people you know.

# The use of alcohol is associated with the leading causes of death and injury among teenagers and young adults. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Maybe that's because the US isn't teaching anything to their children about alcohol whatsoever? Mind you, some of the things I've seen elsewhere where children are permitted to drink are ghastly. People need to teach others to drink responsibly from an early age.

# Alcohol abuse costs businesses twice as much as illegal drug use. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Again! People should not drink at work.

# A clear relationship exists between alcohol use and grade point average (GPA) among college students. Students with GPAs of D or F drink three times as much as those who earn As. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

This I will attribute to the partying, time not spent studying and drinking that results in hangovers that result in not studying - yet again, I blame irresponsible drinking.

# Alcohol impaired drivers get behind the wheel 123 million times a year in the U.S. (Journal of the American Medical Association, January 8, 1997 edition)

irresponsible drinking.

# There were 82 times more drunken driving arrests in the U.S. in 1996 than in 1993. (Source: www.alcoholfreekids.com)

Still irresponsible drinking.


That's what it all boils down to - people not drinking responsibly.

*snip*

That's what it all boils down to - people not drinking responsibly.

Amen! I'll drink to that!

Amen! I'll drink to that!

But responsibly of course ;)

They will get my mead when they pry it from my cold, dead hands. MEAD!!

absinth is banned? i thought it was unbanned not that long ago, a friend of mine said he drunk it.
and are you sure they control the alcohol %? i know that they tax it, but i don't know if there is an upper limit.

Yeah ya can't get real absinth anymore. Ya know with the wormwood.

They will get my mead when they pry it from my cold, dead hands. MEAD!!

Ohhh do ya brew your own?

Yes and ban people who smell of B.O. and people who piss me off at work while you are at it...

Yeah ya can't get real absinth anymore. Ya know with the wormwood.

Well absinthe makes the heart grow fonder

Haha. Congrats, RO. For once, pro-gun satire that actually makes sense. Kudos.

It does? :confused:

I don't drink, nor does my wife, no we are not mormons or muslims or anything where weare forced to not drink (we are catholic) we do it through choice. So this wouldn't effect me whatsoever. But i would support a banning of alcohol, although it would never happen.

As for those that say alcohol is needed for people who are unhappy, sad etc to get away from that. So instead of fixing the cause of the problem you would rather just make yourself run away from it for a few hours.

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.actually, you're still missing the big picture. everyone who is living has died. thus Life is the main problem. 100% of all those who died this YEAR alone had at one point, been diagnosed with Life. we have to remove this dangerious condition. it affects children and adult, no matter the race, creed or religion. even people who are healthy die.

Thus I propose we remove the true menace. LIFE.

and if it was mentioned before, Then I announce my support to eradicate Life, the true cause of death in humans.

actually, you're still missing the big picture. everyone who is living has died. thus Life is the main problem. 100% of all those who died this YEAR alone had at one point, been diagnosed with Life. we have to remove this dangerious condition. it affects children and adult, no matter the race, creed or religion. even people who are healthy die.

Thus I propose we remove the true menace. LIFE.

and if it was mentioned before, Then I announce my support to eradicate Life, the true cause of death in humans.

I vote to support this proposal and further vote that we should start with Junii.

Everyone in parliament can then ignore this proposal, after Junii has offed himself and we can go about living dependently on life until the day we die of it :eek:

I vote to support this proposal and further vote that we should start with Junii.

Everyone in parliament can then ignore this proposal, after Junii has offed himself and we can go about living dependently on life until the day we die of it :eek:

unfortunatly, self-innoculation of Life is neither part of my proposal, nor is it necessary for my proposal.

unfortunatly, self-innoculation of Life is neither part of my proposal, nor is it necessary for my proposal.

I don't quite understand.

How do we remove the menace of life without the termination of life?

I don't quite understand.

How do we remove the menace of life without the termination of life?

you can't. but I said SELF-Innoculation of Life.

you're provision only said that I innoculate myself. I am not a licenced Physician. thus it would be illegal for me to prescribe such a procedure and carry out said procedure on myself or anyone else.

Edit: Add to that the fact that most innoculation of Life is Illegal in most states and nations... we have to legalize treament of Life first.

Can I just question the reliability of this alcoholfreekids.com. This is a direct quote lifted from the first page of that site.

Alcoholfreekids.com is your gateway to the best sites on the Internet for MP3! Looking for Adult, MP3s, or Jobs? Browse our recommended resources or just try the Alcoholfreekids.com search.

It is sponsored by porn and loan companies. Considering this, I am going to have to ask for a better source. Is there perhaps a government source, or independant survey with this information. One not sponsored by porn and loan companies I mean.

I'd point out that the main problem with alcohol is that it has a tendancy to lower the inhibitions. Now considering this the aggressive people are more likely to act on their aggressive tendancies and hit someone.

However, hitting someone whilst drunk is a damn lot better than shooting someone.

Regarding the whole gun thing... the American mentality is summed up by the fact Americans were supposed incredulous that no one shot back at the Virginian gun man.

I can't help but point out that Britain has far less gun-related crimes than America. *Smiles*

Yeah ya can't get real absinth anymore. Ya know with the wormwood.

Sure you can - I have several bottles. For daily drinking I prefer mead though.

I have more suggestions for things to ban:

Swimming pools - more children are killed in swimming pool accidents, annually, than in gun-related accidents.

Cars - more people are killed in auto accidents annually than are killed by guns.

Mom's home cooking - the cumulative effects of the sugars and fats from mom's cooking are more dangerous than guns and alcohol.

Mom's home cooking - the cumulative effects of the sugars and fats from mom's cooking are more dangerous than guns and alcohol.

Actually, if people cooked their food more often at home, they'd be healthier.

Source not available, but it comes from people being too busy to make good dinners, so they eat take-away, fast food and "heat and eat" food.

I don't think you can argue that any of those three things are particularly healthy compared to a well-thought out meal.

What about all the times alcohol prevented violent crime? How many times did someone get home from work to find that his neighbour's dog had left a nice warm steaming heap of yesterday's kibbles on his lawn, decide to crack him open with a lead pipe, only to have a beer, relax, have another beer, think things over, have another beer, then pass out on the couch and wake up the next morning not knowing what it is he was so mad about?

What about all the times alcohol prevented violent crime? How many times did someone get home from work to find that his neighbour's dog had left a nice warm steaming heap of yesterday's kibbles on his lawn, decide to crack him open with a lead pipe, only to have a beer, relax, have another beer, think things over, have another beer, then pass out on the couch and wake up the next morning not knowing what it is he was so mad about?

until he steps in the dog's deposit... and he's not only pissed, but pissed with a hangover. which makes him grab his hedge trimmer and go after the neighbour's dog... then the neighbour, then all the people screaming because the loud noise is making his hangover headache worse... :p

That's the hangover's fault though, not the alcohol... in fact, it's science's fault for till not having invented hangover-free alcohol ;)

A person can make commercial quantities of alcohol out of food with cheap multi-purpose off-the-shelf technology, whereas manufacturing a gun requires a significant amount of technical skill and specialized equipment that is fairly expensive to acquire and use without suspicion.

That's the big reason why prohibition fails for alcohol and not so much for guns.

until he steps in the dog's deposit... and he's not only pissed, but pissed with a hangover. which makes him grab his hedge trimmer and go after the neighbour's dog... then the neighbour, then all the people screaming because the loud noise is making his hangover headache worse... :p

Lol, please, do not innoculate yourself, I just lolled! :D

If we ban alcohol do we get to abuse other drugs?

You know, Alcohol-related crime increased last time alcohol was banned.

Yes, I do know why. Did you?

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.

Been there, done that, amended the Constitution twice.
Didn't work.

If the whole world banned it, we wouldn't have the smuggling from Canada like the last time! :D

* just thought I'd try a different thread topic today *

What do you mean "smuggling from Canada"?
You never heard of bathtub gin and moonshine?
You can make wine in your garage, for pity's sake.

It has a negative effect everywhere in the world where people drink and drive, or drink and work with industrial machinery.

Ban stupidity, then.

Well, it certainly isn't a required food, from a biological standpoint.

The ancient Egyptians considered beer "liquid bread", or so I've heard.

One might also argue that people in the US drive far more than people in the UK, and that it would be totally unreasonable to expect a higher accident/fatality ratio, simply based off of per capita driving time. ;)

There's this whole book whose title is "How to lie with statistics." Numbers are shockingly flexible.

Population of UK: 60,609,153
Population of US: 298,444,215

Hmm, might the larger population account for the larger number of misadventures? Why yes, yes it might.

One might also argue that people in the US drive far more than people in the UK, and that it would be totally unreasonable to expect a higher accident/fatality ratio, simply based off of per capita driving time. ;)

There's this whole book whose title is "How to lie with statistics." Numbers are shockingly flexible.

Can I just question the reliability of this alcoholfreekids.com. This is a direct quote lifted from the first page of that site.

Alcoholfreekids.com is your gateway to the best sites on the Internet for MP3! Looking for Adult, MP3s, or Jobs? Browse our recommended resources or just try the Alcoholfreekids.com search.

It is sponsored by porn and loan companies. Considering this, I am going to have to ask for a better source. Is there perhaps a government source, or independant survey with this information. One not sponsored by porn and loan companies I mean.

I'd point out that the main problem with alcohol is that it has a tendancy to lower the inhibitions. Now considering this the aggressive people are more likely to act on their aggressive tendancies and hit someone.

However, hitting someone whilst drunk is a damn lot better than shooting someone.

Regarding the whole gun thing... the American mentality is summed up by the fact Americans were supposed incredulous that no one shot back at the Virginian gun man.

I can't help but point out that Britain has far less gun-related crimes than America. *Smiles*

Nah, American gun enthusiasts were incredulous that no one shot back. Most of us were not shocked, thank you.

You're going to have to ban yeast.

And even if you do, all you need is the right mold sample, sugary things, and water and boom: low quality alcohol.

And then all you need is some copper tubing and boom: high proof, low quality alcohol.

It does? :confused:Yes. It's especially effective because people are suggesting that the solution to RO's problems in the OP is responsible alcohol consumption. If people can consume alcohol responsibly, then they can own guns responsibly, also.

You're going to have to ban yeast.Wouldn't police officers need gynacology training to enforce this...?

It's 3am on tuesday night... give me a break...

Yes. It's especially effective because people are suggesting that the solution to RO's problems in the OP is responsible alcohol consumption. If people can consume alcohol responsibly, then they can own guns responsibly, also.

And remind me again how many people are killed every year due to being forced to imbibe alcohol?

Yes. It's especially effective because people are suggesting that the solution to RO's problems in the OP is responsible alcohol consumption. If people can consume alcohol responsibly, then they can own guns responsibly, also.

Actually, that's not the correct relation.

If people can own alcohol responsibly, then they can own guns responsibly.

If people can consume alcohol responsibly, then they can use guns responsibly.

That's what you're looking for.

However, people cannot consume alcohol responsibly and it is for this exact reason that banning it isn't possible.

And remind me again how many people are killed every year due to being forced to imbibe alcohol?Typically anti-gun advocates include accidental shootings and suicides as part of their reasons for banning or increasing controls on guns. By this rationale, accidental alcohol poisoning would therefore be a reason to ban alcohol.

Actually, that's not the correct relation.

If people can own alcohol responsibly, then they can own guns responsibly.

If people can consume alcohol responsibly, then they can use guns responsibly.

That's what you're looking for.

However, people cannot consume alcohol responsibly and it is for this exact reason that banning it isn't possible.Of course banning it is possible, all it would take it passing a law doing so.
Of course, actually eliminating the problem of alcohol would not be solved with a ban, but since we're talking about principled stances here, that isn't relevant.

There were 16,694 alcohol-related fatalities in the US in 2004 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.

Compare this to roughly the same number of firearm murders at the same time in the US.

Well, for those of you who wish to ban guns, I suggest that we also ban alcohol.

The figure for alcohol also does not include murders committed by drunken husbands beating their wives and children, nor does it include drunks who shot people. And let's not forget all of those drunken fights and assaults that put people in hospital, and let's not forget the drunken men who rape women.

And let's think of the impact on our economy. Alcoholics naturally are problems in terms of absenteeism, and cause accidents at work (even if no one is killed).

It's kind of hard to say that firearms cause accidents at work, or are a major cause of absenteeism, so I think we get some additional economic goodness by banning alcohol.

I would be happy to give up alcohol (at this point, the beer in the US is so bad I'm almost at that point anyway).

In fact, I believe the UN should get involved, and get countries to agree to a worldwide ban on alcohol.

I don't know if you've heard but they banned alchohal in the '30s and alchohalism was at an all time high, so were alchohal related deaths because of bad boot legging and people not going to see doctors for alchohal poisoning because of jail. It's like what happens when you ban drugs.

Ban alcohol? Hell no! Alcohol is man's best discovery, period.
Besides, the government already tried to ban alcohol. It didn't work. Prohibition actually promoted the growth of organized crime (the Mob).

Ban alcohol? You apparently have never drunken yourself to a stuper on a Friday night and wake up Saturday morning in your best friend's basement naked with lots of pizza, liquor, and video games lying around? Have you?