NationStates Jolt Archive

Most of us, even Iraqi expatriates such as myself, have limited contact with what's happening "over there." However, there is the odd occasion where something, or someone; close to you in Iraq has a close encounter with the underbelly of the situation, and gives you unique insight into the true meaning of the word "liberation."

One example is what happened to my grandmother about one week ago. She is 75 years old and has difficulty walking, and she lives with her slightly younger sister in a relatively pleasant house in Adhammiya, Baghdad. For those who have not heard of that district, CNN calls it "The Badlands of Iraq." It was once an affluent area, popular with Baghdads "oldies", and was predominantly Sunni, however since the outbreak of sectarian violence it became 100% Sunni. Of course, she does not have any affiliation with any groups of any sort in Iraq or the world, and simply tries to live her days in comfort and solace.

For her, random searches by the US army are part of life, the house has been searched about half a dozen times, even though everytime they search it, they find it still only contains two elderly women. However, one week ago US troops, in Operation "Law and Order," began a search of every house in Adhammiya. On this day, both herself and her sister were out of the house, and so the true colours of what US troops do when not being watched shined.

Finding no one was coming to open the gate, they did not hesitate to break the gate that protects the house down. Of course, it would be difficult to repair, and only makes the house an easier target for Sectarian death squads. After this, they conducted their search, and left. After my grandmother got home, she found that the house had a few changes. A major one was that a photo of her son (my uncle), who was a helicopter pilot killed in the Iran-Iraq war 20 years ago, had his photo ripped from the frame. Another was the theft of two gold rings (one of which was a gift to be sent to me for my upcoming birthday). Speaking to others, she found that American soldiers stealing valubles from homes they search is common and well known, and in fact almost expected.

Just one story.

Thanks for that. I heard about that problem as well, though that was years ago. I would've thought the commanders would have clamped down on it.

Speaking to others, she found that American soldiers stealing valubles from homes they search is common and well known, and in fact almost expected.

US soldiers not saints deserving of constant fellatio, but common thugs? I am shocked. Shocked and dismayed.

Colour me unsuprised.

US soldiers not saints deserving of constant fellatio, but common thugs? I am shocked. Shocked and dismayed.

You would be, Fass, you would be. :-D

On Topic: As unsurprising as this is (I mean, we're talking about the same army responsible for Ab Ghraib) it sucks that this happened to your grandmother.

You don't win wars or hearts & minds like that. Unsurprising, but sad.

Is it bad that this doesn't surprise me? I feel sorry for your grandmother.

Soldiers are thugs, usually, without regards of nationality. They come from the lowest and roughest part of their societies, and suddenly they find themselves with a large amount of power without the mental preparation to cope with it without turning it into abuse. As far as I know, officers exist to both command AND restrain the men under their charge. A unchecked regiment of soldiers quickly descend into a dangerous mob if left on their own.

Not a surprise, my question is. Where was the officer in charge?

Aelosia, as an officer myself (not an American one, I hasten to add), I find that point of view in relation to soldiers to be remarkable, and in the vast majority of cases, wrong. Maybe that holds for some parts of the world, but where I am, soldiers are intelligent, well-trained, well prepared, motivated and competent.

I am, however, sorry to hear that the actions of some nation's soldiers (and a small number of them, I'd wager) have tarnished the contemporary view of the profession of arms.

Al-Iraqiya, you and your family have my condolences for the crimes against them. I only hope and pray that the situation will improve.

I am, however, sorry to hear that the actions of some nation's soldiers (and a small number of them, I'd wager) have tarnished the contemporary view of the profession of arms.

Yeah, such a shame that a profession in killing other people has been tarnished...

Aelosia, as an officer myself (not an American one, I hasten to add), I find that point of view in relation to soldiers to be remarkable, and in the vast majority of cases, wrong. Maybe that holds for some parts of the world, but where I am, soldiers are intelligent, well-trained, well prepared, motivated and competent.

I am, however, sorry to hear that the actions of some nation's soldiers (and a small number of them, I'd wager) have tarnished the contemporary view of the profession of arms.

Al-Iraqiya, you and your family have my condolences for the crimes against them. I only hope and pray that the situation will improve.

Australia, I guess...

As far as I know, you have a high professionalization of your armed forces, as most european nations. Preparation is indeed the key to keep a disciplined and decent army. Sadly, most of those new recruits sent to Irak lack the time and training needed. In other latitudes, like in South America, where I am from, soldiers are usually concripts that depend entirely on officers to keep their discipline.

Every army in the world should follow your example. I heard high praises on the actions of australian soldiers in East Timor from a colleague of mine that was there. Looks like you did a good job there. Sorry if I was offending, but it was my opinion, although I totally lack insider's knowledge of any armed service. Thanks for opening my eyes to certain facts, in any case.

Yeah, such a shame that a profession in killing other people has been tarnished...

That's awfully obnoxious isn't it? Soldier's are brave men and women who fight and have fought bravely for their countries and they deserve our respect, no matter what political agenda's have motivated them to fight.

However, soldier's that do not follow the Laws of War only deserve our contempt, such as these pitiful excuses for human beings.

That's awfully obnoxious isn't it? Soldier's are brave men and women who fight and have fought bravely for their countries and they deserve our respect, no matter what political agenda's have motivated them to fight.

However, soldier's that do not follow the Laws of War only deserve our contempt, such as these pitiful excuses for human beings.

The extremism associated with soldiers is odd. Regular soldiers are all brave and deserving of respect for no other reason than they are soldiers, but soldiers who break the rules are sub-human.

Are there any soldiers who are just average?

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

Yes, those American soldiers sure are incapable of wrong doing.

*coughcoughAbu Gharibcough*

Most of us, even Iraqi expatriates such as myself, have limited contact with what's happening "over there." However, there is the odd occasion where something, or someone; close to you in Iraq has a close encounter with the underbelly of the situation, and gives you unique insight into the true meaning of the word "liberation."

One example is what happened to my grandmother about one week ago. She is 75 years old and has difficulty walking, and she lives with her slightly younger sister in a relatively pleasant house in Adhammiya, Baghdad. For those who have not heard of that district, CNN calls it "The Badlands of Iraq." It was once an affluent area, popular with Baghdads "oldies", and was predominantly Sunni, however since the outbreak of sectarian violence it became 100% Sunni. Of course, she does not have any affiliation with any groups of any sort in Iraq or the world, and simply tries to live her days in comfort and solace.

For her, random searches by the US army are part of life, the house has been searched about half a dozen times, even though everytime they search it, they find it still only contains two elderly women. However, one week ago US troops, in Operation "Law and Order," began a search of every house in Adhammiya. On this day, both herself and her sister were out of the house, and so the true colours of what US troops do when not being watched shined.

Finding no one was coming to open the gate, they did not hesitate to break the gate that protects the house down. Of course, it would be difficult to repair, and only makes the house an easier target for Sectarian death squads. After this, they conducted their search, and left. After my grandmother got home, she found that the house had a few changes. A major one was that a photo of her son (my uncle), who was a helicopter pilot killed in the Iran-Iraq war 20 years ago, had his photo ripped from the frame. Another was the theft of two gold rings (one of which was a gift to be sent to me for my upcoming birthday). Speaking to others, she found that American soldiers stealing valubles from homes they search is common and well known, and in fact almost expected.

Just one story.

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

The extremism associated with soldiers is odd. Regular soldiers are all brave and deserving of respect for no other reason than they are soldiers, but soldiers who break the rules are sub-human.

Are there any soldiers who are just average?

Soldiers that adhere to the Laws of War perform thier duties selflessly without improportionate malice or criminal corruption, and refuse to follow illegal orders. They put thier lives on the line throughout the world, in many different conflicts, everyday, which takes a great deal of courage and self-discipline that I could not hope to muster, and for that I respect them. Thier duties are born out of necessity.

Soldiers that rape, pillage, execute, torture, deliberately maim, steal or lie are no better than stupid criminal thugs, who are deliberately violating military, national and international law.

Soldiers that adhere to the Laws of War perform thier duties selflessly without improportionate malice or criminal corruption, and refuse to follow illegal orders.
Can we infer from this sentence that these Laws of War forbid soldiers from acting selfishly?
They put thier lives on the line throughout the world, in many different conflicts, everyday, which takes a great deal of courage and self-discipline that I could not hope to muster, and for that I respect them. Thier duties are born out of necessity.
All modern conflicts need to be there?

Soldiers that rape, pillage, execute, torture, deliberately maim, steal or lie are no better than stupid criminal thugs, who are deliberately violating military, national and international law.

Again, soldiers are either glorious demi-gods, superior to us mere mortals, or raping, pillaging psychopaths? No middle ground?

That's awfully obnoxious isn't it? Soldier's are brave men and women who fight and have fought bravely for their countries and they deserve our respect, no matter what political agenda's have motivated them to fight.

Nonsense. They deserve nothing but scorn, these worshippers of nationalistic urges to become automata who give up their humanity for the sake of the "glorious state", ready to destroy peoples of other states. It is a vicious cycle where they justify their own existence by the existence of their own, wretched ilk elsewhere - it is insanity and for them to be stupid enough not to realise what they are part of, they merit no veneration.

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

http://files.myopera.com/newlifenarrabri/blog/1Ostrich%20head%20in%20sand.jpg
"Lalalalalala! I can't hear you!"

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

Believe it, that sort of thing happens. This is coming from an Iraq war vet. The vast majority of US troops conduct themselves in an honorable manner, but there are far too many who indeed do the sorts of things described in the article, and worse.

Can we infer from this sentence that these Laws of War forbid soldiers from acting selfishly?

All modern conflicts need to be there?



Again, soldiers are either glorious demi-gods, superior to us mere mortals, or raping, pillaging psychopaths? No middle ground?

1. Well, they certainly don't permit theft, rape etc.

2. That's something to take up with the politicians I think.

3. Well they are in the end, mere men. But they are surely brave men to be working in the line of fire as they are? I don't apply double standards mind you. Humanitarian workers and others who have to work in warzones have the same elevation in respect from me as the soldiers.

http://files.myopera.com/newlifenarrabri/blog/1Ostrich%20head%20in%20sand.jpg
"Lalalalalala! I can't hear you!"

Annoying, isn't it? When you say something that challenges someone's beliefs they just "refuse to believe it" as though that magically makes it not true.

Believe it, that sort of thing happens. This is coming from an Iraq war vet. The vast majority of US troops conduct themselves in an honorable manner, but there are far too many who indeed do the sorts of things described in the article, and worse.

Keep in mind that while the vast majority of US troops don't do these things, Fassingen and quite a few people here on NS General believe that US troops do this not only as a rule, but that the behavior is either ordered or officially tolerated.

Annoying, isn't it? When you say something that challenges someone's beliefs they just "refuse to believe it" as though that magically makes it not true.

I was weighing between pics of Lynndie England and that, but now I sort of regret I didn't go with this:

http://www.ashleyb.org/images/iRaq1.gif

1. Well, they certainly don't permit theft, rape etc.

2. That's something to take up with the politicians I think.

3. Well they are in the end, mere men. But they are surely brave men to be working in the line of fire as they are? I don't apply double standards mind you. Humanitarian workers and others who have to work in warzones have the same elevation in respect from me as the soldiers.

That, by no stretch of the imagination, makes all soldiers who obey these laws selfless.
So soldiers are just tools of the politicians? Since when has a hammer or a power saw been deserving of respect?
Bravery and stupidity are rather similiar at times. Whether a person who puts themself in the line of fire is the former or the latter is too variable to generalise for a group as large as soldiers.

Keep in mind that while the vast majority of US troops don't do these things, Fassingen and quite a few people here on NS General believe that US troops do this not only as a rule, but that the behavior is either ordered or officially tolerated.

Which is, of course, equally wrong as Wanderjar's opinion. The reality, as usual, it far less clear cut and more complicated than "They're all baby-murdering monsters!" or "They're all heroes and saints!". Shades of grey abound.

Which is, of course, equally wrong as Wanderjar's opinion. The reality, as usual, it far less clear cut and more complicated than "They're all baby-murdering monsters!" or "They're all heroes and saints!". Shades of grey abound.

Exactly. I've always viewed soldiers as a microcosm of the society they come from, put into an environment they weren't expecting to be in, under conditions they didn't believe could exist.

Keep in mind that while the vast majority of US troops don't do these things, Fassingen and quite a few people here on NS General believe that US troops do this not only as a rule, but that the behavior is either ordered or officially tolerated.

I am of the mind that the propensity towards criminal action in the US military is roughly equal to that of the typical US society. Not every American is a criminal. And certainly not every US CEO is a criminal either. But just as the power structure exists, there will be those who tend to commit crimes, or even order them done, as well as those on the ground level committing them of their own initiative.

However, I find the US military to be less strict than it should be when sentencing it's own.

However, I find the US military to be less strict than it should be when sentencing it's own.

US courts below the Federal level are pretty light on sentencing.

Especially when it's your first time doing a violent felony.

Believe it, that sort of thing happens. This is coming from an Iraq war vet. The vast majority of US troops conduct themselves in an honorable manner, but there are far too many who indeed do the sorts of things described in the article, and worse.

Thats sad. I've had a buddy die there, many more fight there and would like to think that they all conducted themselves with "Prussian Virtue" (Nobility, honor, etc)

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

Then there's a hell of a lot of Iraqi propaganda going around these days...

But seriously; soldier's aren't Saints, and there's more than enough evidence of this happening in Iraq to lend the story credibility. Especially since it's rather moderate - no rapings/killings/beatings, for example.

Thats sad. I've had a buddy die there, many more fight there and would like to think that they all conducted themselves with "Prussian Virtue" (Nobility, honor, etc)

I've had buddies die there too, and I have buddies that are back over there (on their 3rd tour) and the actions of those few assholes shouldn't put those serving honorably in a bad light.

Equally, the fact that many US troops serve honorably shouldn't put those who aren't in any better a light than they deserve. Any soldier who steals from a local's house is a thief, end of story.

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

So... You believe that a group that has people willing to rape and ALL of its people willing to kill doesn't have people willing to steal?

Denial isn't de river in de country of Egypt.

As long as we're taking stories from Iraq:

http://www.drudgereport.com/5.jpg
Corporal Tyler Rock, 1/6 Charlie Company, on the left, at my old home, Camp Hurricane Point, Ramadi.


A view from OP Horea, “Most Dangerous Spot On Earth”, Downtown Ramadi. I no shit watched several terrorists die, on several different days, on this small strip of asphalt. We also took many IED strikes on it. This photo is from Corporal Rock.

Today, from Corporal Tyler Rock in an outpost in downtown Ramadi. His first sentence is in response to an email from me:

“yeah i know how you feel. its going to be very weird leaving this place and going back to america. weve been here for almost an entire year and have lived in the center of it the whole time. its crazy that when we got here it was so hectic and now its calmed down so much. so it was awesome to be able to see that turn out.

yeah news worth reporting…. well ramadi was once dubbed by everyone as the worst city in the world. but we have done such a great job here that all the families in the area have worked with us on driving out the insurgency and that we work directly with the IA and the IP’s. the city has been cleaned up so well that the IP’s do most of the patrols now and we go out with them to hand out candy and toys to the children. you can tell that the people want us here to protect them from the thugs and gangs (insurgents). granted they would rather have peace and quit but they know that if we arent here they will be thrown around by the insurgents. a good example is this one mission we did. long story short we got blown up in multiple buildings and had to run into a families house. i spent my christmas holidays covered in ash from the mortar fire and the IED’s, sleeping under a dirty rug i found in the house. everyone was sleeping way to close for comfort just to stay warm. anyways. a family was there and they obviously didnt want us there. atleast at first. the daughters were very sick so our corpsman treated them. they didnt have electricity so we got them a generator for power, they were cold so we got them gas heaters, we got them food and water and then we gave them $500. by the end of the week long visit with them we were drinking tea with them. when we left we cleaned their house better than it was when we got there. i even have pictures with the family. they told us that they liked marines and they would help us as much as they could and they gave us some information on the insurgents in the area. we ended up catching a HUGE target down the road from there house because of it.

http://www.drudgereport.com/7.jpg
Part Of A Weapons Cache Seized Recently In Fields Next To What Used To Be An Insurgent Claimed Hospital. Thanks To 1/6, The Insurgents Don’t Claim It Anymore. Zarqawi Had Reportedly Been Treated There.

yeah and i got a qoute for that douche harry reid. these families need us here. obviously he has never been in iraq. or atleast the area worth seeing. the parts where insurgency is rampant and the buildings are blown to pieces. we need to stay here and help rebuild. if iraq didnt want us here then why do we have IP’s voluntering everyday to rebuild their cities. and working directly with us too. same with the IA’s. it sucks that iraqi’s have more patriotism for a country that has turned to complete shit more than the people in america who drink starbucks everyday. we could leave this place and say we are sorry to the terrorists. and then we could wait for 3,000 more american civilians to die before we say “hey thats not nice” again. and the sad thing is after we WIN this war. people like him will say he was there for us the whole time.
and for messages back home. i have a wife back home who is going through a tough time. i just cant wait to be back home and see everyone. haha and i cant wait to go back home and get some starbucks. i love it when those people serve me. hahaha”

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

I feel you, Bro. I've had the same problem sometimes here even when I felt my sarcasm was so over the top it was obvious. It's lame, but sometimes you just need to use the tags to get it through some people's skulls.

I feel you, Bro. I've had the same problem sometimes here even when I felt my sarcasm was so over the top it was obvious. It's lame, but sometimes you just need to use the tags to get it through some people's skulls.

When I first read that comment he made I immediately assumed it was sarcasm but everyone took it seriously so I thought maybe I was missing something about the poster...

There are after all, people who truly believe that American troops would never do anything as wrong as steal from Iraqis. Us being such a noble people and all.

When I first read that comment he made I immediately assumed it was sarcasm but everyone took it seriously so I thought maybe I was missing something about the poster...

There are after all, people who truly believe that American troops would never do anything as wrong as steal from Iraqis. Us being such a noble people and all.

I just think the form that he used made it plainly obvious.

Nonsense. They deserve nothing but scorn, these worshippers of nationalistic urges to become automata who give up their humanity for the sake of the "glorious state", ready to destroy peoples of other states. It is a vicious cycle where they justify their own existence by the existence of their own, wretched ilk elsewhere - it is insanity and for them to be stupid enough not to realise what they are part of, they merit no veneration.

Since when did you become such an anarchist?

snip

Is that your story and your pictures?

Since when did you become such an anarchist?
The term you are looking for is naive moron.

-snip-

Could it be? The occupied have a different perspective from the occupiers?

Thats sad. I've had a buddy die there, many more fight there and would like to think that they all conducted themselves with "Prussian Virtue" (Nobility, honor, etc)
Now that is just plain silly.

Not only are the Prussian virtues something entirely different, but the Prussians themselves weren't exactly angels on the battlefield and off it.

well whether he was being sarcastic or not, i would also like to add this.

Our first taste of the story came one week ago, when we tried to call her but the line was engaged (it was engaged everyday since the search, until yesterday). We then found out from an uncles friend that they had their gate broken down (we did not hear about the theft or the picture being torn off).

When we finally called her and asked her about what happened and why the gate was broken down, her first question was "who told you about this?" She did not want people to know, Iraqis in Iraq want the outside world to believe their lives are OK, and are trying to hide what is happening. That is the Iraqi propaganda

Again, soldiers are either glorious demi-gods, superior to us mere mortals, or raping, pillaging psychopaths? No middle ground?
Not unless you happen to know a few of them.

Nonsense. They deserve nothing but scorn, these worshippers of nationalistic urges to become automata who give up their humanity for the sake of the "glorious state", ready to destroy peoples of other states. It is a vicious cycle where they justify their own existence by the existence of their own, wretched ilk elsewhere - it is insanity and for them to be stupid enough not to realise what they are part of, they merit no veneration.

I would love to hear you say that speech in front of a gathering of World War II veterans.

I can guarantee that it would be a comedy. An absolute riot. Has anyone here seen Rat Race? That's the sort of scene I'm talking about--just without the Hitler mustache.

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.

And I suppose the My-Lai Massacre and Calley's trial was just a brilliant stunt pulled off by Uncle Ho.

:rolleyes:

As long as we're taking stories from Iraq:
...anyways. a family was there and they obviously didnt want us there. atleast at first. the daughters were very sick*so our corpsman treated them. they didnt have electricity** so we got them a generator for power, they were cold*** so we got them gas heaters, we got them food and water**** and then we gave them $500*****...
* Because there's no local doctor to treat them there anymore and the local hospital is totally lacking in the normal supplies it would have had before the war and, as well, severly under-staffed and overflowing with the sick and the dying due to the war.
** Because the US totally destroyed the entire power grid as one of it's main objectives 4 years ago, and it still hasn't been repaired.
*** Again, due to the US having had destroyed the national power grid and the oil industry.
**** Lack of water due to the US destruction of the infrastructure 4 years ago which has still not been repaired. Lack of food due to unemployement, fear of leaving home and inflation - again, due to the US invasion.
***** Lack of money due to the Iraq economy having been destroyed due to the US invasion 4 years ago.

feel good story of the year.

I'm sorry but I cannot believe it. I will not. American soldiers would not do that. Its iraqi propaganda attempting to harm the image of the United States soldiers.Look, Being an American soldier doesn't somehow magically make you a better person. The demographics of the average serviceman are basically that of the group responsible for most crimes, young men in their late teens and early twenties. It doesn't mean that all soldiers are criminals, but you really have to have a set of blinders on to believe that no crimes are commited by soldiers.

There was a saying I remember that came out of the Vietnam war, it went something along the lines of "There is nothing more cruel than a group of 19 year old men". It's not a slam on soldiers in particular, it's just a basic truth that manifests itself in the dynamics of that particular age group. Be honest, how many times have you seen someone of that age, particularly if surrounded by his peers, do something stupid, dangerous or just plain mean. Hell, all it takes is a quick tour of YouTube to find a hundred example of what I mean. These young people are in a strange and dangerous place, lawlessness and death all around them, soon the tribal mentality takes over.

The best way to understand the tribal mentality that exists to an extent in all of us is to take a look at the languages of existing and traditional tribal cultures. In virtually all, the word for "Human" is the same as their name for their tribe. If you don't look at others as 'human', as less than members of your own tribe or group it's more likely and easier to treat them in an inhumane way. The environment that surrounds soldiers occuppying a hostile area fosters this attitude; the locals are less than human, they are all out to get you and treating them in an inhumane way is acceptable and normal. You combine that with the natural tendancy for young men to do, well, stupid things and you have the perfect recipe for cruelty and atrocity. It's been that way in every war ever fought and probably always will. It's a reality. Do I believe American soldiers could callously leave an elderly persons house in shambles and steal a few unguarded items, Yes. Do I think they're evil or bad people, No. It's simply the way things are. The soldiers are products of their environment.

Incidentaly that same tribal mentality is what is basically responsible for the sectarian violence and atrocities. It surrounds the soldiers and permeates the society around them, how can they not be effected?

* Because there's no local doctor to treat them there anymore and the local hospital is totally lacking in the normal supplies it would have had before the war and, as well, severly under-staffed and overflowing with the sick and the dying due to the war.
** Because the US totally destroyed the entire power grid as one of it's main objectives 4 years ago, and it still hasn't been repaired.
*** Again, due to the US having had destroyed the national power grid and the oil industry.
**** Lack of water due to the US destruction of the infrastructure 4 years ago which has still not been repaired. Lack of food due to unemployement, fear of leaving home and inflation - again, due to the US invasion.
***** Lack of money due to the Iraq economy having been destroyed due to the US invasion 4 years ago.

feel good story of the year.


Puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

snip

Is this your story?