NationStates Jolt Archive

You said that only the Jewish claim to Palestine is valid. That is equal to wanting the Palestinians to go away and give up the home land they used to inhabit. Unfortunately there is no parallel universe available that would allow them to live in the same place and time as the Israelis.

I was arguing that they had a claim to the land. Please point to a post where I said that only the Jewish claim was the only one valid. I can tell you right now that I made no such post.

How noble of you. And because you're on the winner's side you can afford such nobility.

Now you are being confusing.

Negotiate what? Palestinians have nothing to offer and Israelis only want to extend their settlements. Negotiate what? Letting all Palestinians return and regain what they have lost because of the Jewish immigration and its consequences?

Yes they do have something to negotiate. It is called security and soverignty. The only way negotiations work is if both sides bring something to the table. Then compromising can take place and thus peace occurs when common ground is finally reached.

You can't accept that Palestinians are real people and not just statistics.

Prove that I can not accept that the Palestinians are real people and not just a statistic. I know you can not do so but please try.

You can't accept that 60 year old wounds do still hurt.

ACtually yes I can! However, I am always looking beyond the wounds to find solutions to the problems that do not involve ethnic cleansing.

You can't accept that the humiliation that Palestinian Arabs have to continuously suffer because of Israel and its attitudes and policies cannot be forgotten nor forgiven. Your arrogance lets you ignore the pain that is not yours.

Prove it.

You'd really be better off ignoring him. Seriously, theres nothing to him except "Jews must go". He's an embarrasment.

You'd really be better off ignoring him. Seriously, theres nothing to him except "Jews must go". He's an embarrasment.

I am beginning to see that.

You'd really be better off ignoring him. Seriously, theres nothing to him except "Jews must go". He's an embarrasment.

And thus the reason I (correctly) call him an anti-semite.

Negotiate what? Palestinians have nothing to offer and Israelis only want to extend their settlements. Negotiate what? Letting all Palestinians return and regain what they have lost because of the Jewish immigration and its consequences?

You can't accept that Palestinians are real people and not just statistics. You can't accept that 60 year old wounds do still hurt. You can't accept that the humiliation that Palestinian Arabs have to continuously suffer because of Israel and its attitudes and policies cannot be forgotten nor forgiven. Your arrogance lets you ignore the pain that is not yours.
I think you're wrong. The people of Palestine have everything to offer, whether you, the Israelis or even they themselves realise it. What they have to give is themselves: their time, their experiences, their hopes and fears, their joy and sorrow and the miracle that is their company. I might not be a religious guy but I do have faith in the natural value of each individual. A life shared is an unbelievably powerful force in the right hands, and the Jewish people would be fools to reject such a gift if they could see it being given openly and unreservedly. I am unashamedly angry, I am afraid, I am upset and I am racked with shame that so many lives are constantly being taken and thrown away for the most stupid and baseless reasons, and if I feel like that from all the way here, I can only imagine how much more so everyone there must be feeling right now.

Yet I believe that if the Palestinians were to demonstrate that yes, they are afraid and hurt by these new invaders, but they are nonetheless willing to share their lives with the newcomers as long as they can be allowed to return home and not be so viciously oppressed, and if Israel could be made to see that this is what they want, there would be no grudge or pain that could not be healed over time. The evils of what has happened need not be forgotten, and the memory of what has happened will serve as a useful lesson for the people of the future, but forgiveness will always be an option when both sides are willing to give it a try, even where sometimes it seems like it hurts too much. If they can overcome their tribal differences and restore to everyone what is theirs, people will gradually become strong enough for the memories not to hurt any more, and that's really the only way the pain will stop. Whether or not my meager experiences in NI have anything to do with this is up to you, but I want it to work, and I think it can.

And even if that approach doesn't work, at least they'll have the upper hand in the international community for having made the best damned effort they could ever have made.

They aren't but the logical end to the argument is that all lands taken in war should be returned. Which is impossible so why should it be done in only one instance?

No it isn't. What I'm suggesting is that what was once acceptable stopped being acceptable. During the 20th century the idea of might=right and countries gaining land by conquest became unacceptable. Hence lands taken before it became unacceptable (most officially with the creation of the UN) are not included whereas ones taken after would be.

And thus the reason I (correctly) call him an anti-semite.
Maybe so, but I think it's clear that's scapegoating - a symptom of a deeper problem rather than a reason in and of itself. I think we'd be best leaving off the nameslinging and dealing with the underlying causes of why he thinks the way he does, mmkay?

You'd really be better off ignoring him. Seriously, theres nothing to him except "Jews must go". He's an embarrasment.The embarrassment is Israel. The ideologically motivated mass-immigration of Jews into Palestine and the UN's decision to divide Palestine were acts of imperialism against Arabs, they were undemocratic and unnecessary. The passage of 60 years has not changed that. Jews have come to Palestine en masse, now there is no reason why they can't leave en masse. Since they have not lifted their occupation of the West Bank and the Golan and are extending the Jewish settlements in the West Bank and are building a Wall/Fence it is pretty obvious that what Israel wants is neither dialog nor peace with the Arabs. There is no basis for negotiation, really. And because of Israel's attitude and actions I see no reason to accept Israel as a state. I saw a tiny hope once when Rabin talked to Arafat. But we all know what Israel did in reaction to this: kill Rabin replace him with Netanyahu. Since then all hope for peace and sovereignty for the Palestinians has died. And you know it. Whatever suggestions for 'peace' Israel is making, the settlements and the Wall/Fence are growing. So what are those suggestions really worth?

The embarrassment is Israel. The decision to divide Palestine was an act of imperialism, it was undemocratic and unnecessary. The passage of 60 years has not changed that. Jews have come to Palestine en masse, now there is no reason why they can't leave en masse.

Holy Mother of the Lord. No reason why they can not leave? I am sorry but there are several reasons why they can not leave.

Since they have not lifted their occupation of the West Bank and the Golan and are extending the Jewish settlements in the West Bank and are building a Wall/Fence it is pretty obvious that what Israel wants is neither dialog nor peace with the Arabs.

You do realize that the Golan was taken after the last full Arab war? It is a defensive position for Israel. If I am readin the UN Resolutions correctly, they are entitled to have lands that are defensible.

You do have a point about the West Bank settlements. I really wish they would stop that. That is not helping matters much.

As to not wanting peace, I will say that you are wrong there. They do want peace. They want to be left alone.

There is no basis for negotiation, really.

There's plenty of basis for negotiations. It is to bad that Hamas cannot realize that. I will tell you right now. If Hamas announced tomorrow that they are going to disarm, you will see peace happening really fast.

And because of Israel's attitude and actions I see no reason to accept Israel as a state.

A shame for you! How could someone have so much hate?

I saw a tiny hope once when Rabin talked to Arafat. But we all know what Israel did in reaction to this: kill Rabin replace him with Netanyahu. Since then all hope for peace and sovereignty for the Palestinians has died.

There is alot more there than what you are making it out to be. I suggest you do take a class on the Middle East. It might open your eyes as to the fact that both parties are responsible for the violence that is there. Not just Israel.

And you know it. Whatever suggestions for 'peace' Israel is making, the settlements and the Wall/Fence are growing. So what are those suggestions really worth?

When negotiations happen and when a settlement is reached, I will gaurentee you now that the building of settlements will probably cease.

You do realize that the Golan was taken after the last full Arab war? It is a defensive position for Israel. If I am readin the UN Resolutions correctly, they are entitled to have lands that are defensible.
They're not entitled to conquer other lands, defensible or not.


As to not wanting peace, I will say that you are wrong there. They do want peace. They want to be left alone.



There's plenty of basis for negotiations. It is to bad that Hamas cannot realize that. I will tell you right now. If Hamas announced tomorrow that they are going to disarm, you will see peace happening really fast.


I have to disagree here. Israel want peace. In a way both sides want peace but both set overly high conditions upon it. Hamas being armed and beliggerant doesn't help the situation, but it's by no means the only obstacle to peace.

They're not entitled to conquer other lands, defensible or not.

I am going to have to look that up but I am willing to let you have the benefit of the doubt till otherwise.

I have to disagree here. Israel want peace. In a way both sides want peace but both set overly high conditions upon it. Hamas being armed and beliggerant doesn't help the situation, but it's by no means the only obstacle to peace.

You are indeed right but the fact remains that if Hamas stops the fighting and begins the process of peace and makes overtures to talk, that makes big headlines and puts the ball in Israel's court to agree to it.

It will be a big step in the right direction.

I am going to have to look that up but I am willing to let you have the benefit of the doubt till otherwise.



You are indeed right but the fact remains that if Hamas stops the fighting and begins the process of peace and makes overtures to talk, that makes big headlines and puts the ball in Israel's court to agree to it.

It will be a big step in the right direction.

A large part of the problem is that the Palestinian side is not as defined as many people claim. Not everyone is affiliated to Hamas/organised group. Apart from the stonethrowing (which is clearly disorganised) I suspect that much of the violence is done by either those unaffiliated to Hamas or those affiliated but not under the control of Hamas. To compare the situation to Ireland, when the IRA moved away from violence then the PIRA was set up to continue it. If Hamas disarmed then a group would splinter off to continue it.

The leaders of Hamas cannot throw a switch and stop the violence. Plus there've been ceasefires on and off for years, what difference would a new one bring?

A large part of the problem is that the Palestinian side is not as defined as many people claim. Not everyone is affiliated to Hamas/organised group. Apart from the stonethrowing (which is clearly disorganised) I suspect that much of the violence is done by either those unaffiliated to Hamas or those affiliated but not under the control of Hamas. To compare the situation to Ireland, when the IRA moved away from violence then the PIRA was set up to continue it. If Hamas disarmed then a group would splinter off to continue it.

But if Hamas renounces violence and does all that it takes to reign in the terror groups, as Abbas was trying to do, one would see a marked improvement in relations there.

The leaders of Hamas cannot throw a switch and stop the violence. Plus there've been ceasefires on and off for years, what difference would a new one bring?

Notice what I said, if they throw down their arms. I am not talking about a cease-fire, I am talking about actually throwing down their arms period and to move to peaceful measures.

Who else is tired of United Beleriand's circular reasoning?

Who else is tired of United Beleriand's circular reasoning?

I'm just sick of the fact that he's doing just what he accuses others of doing: treating a group of people as statistics.

Why should Israeli-born Israelis be under any pressure to go anywhere? They have done nothing wrong. They are living in the land of their birth, perhaps their parent's birth, possibly even their grandparents or even further. Yet you would take their land and property from them, steal what they own.

Yes, what happened in 1948 would be unacceptable now. So fucking what? It WASN'T unacceptable in 1948, and it happened. To try and "restore the balance" now is merely to perpetrate an even greater evil in the name of an unattainable goal.

Occeandrive: In answer to your question, I suspect he's pretty much accurate. After all, support just means "Yes, I agree with it's existence." Only a small minority of Jews appear to oppose Israel's existence.

With a lot of sub arguments happening let me condense the thread into two arguments:

UB's arg: Jews took the land from the Palestinians therefore 7 million people should be removed from their homes in retaliation for the 500,000 other people who were removed from their homes.

LC et al's arg: You're fucking retarded this isn't going to happen and the removal was justified. Plus you're probably an anti-semite.

UB: No the removal was unjustified. Few reasons why with mostly pretty stories. Creates strawmen also.

LC et al.: Yes the removal was justified. Many reasons why using a lot of historical examples and facts.

add 18 pages.

Side args:
Me and Forsica about the nature of captured territory.

OceanDrive's create a new Israel in a better area idea.

Subarguments within the main two points.

(This was not meant to flame UB merely point out the flaws of his argumentation)

Holy Mother of the Lord. No reason why they can not leave? I am sorry but there are several reasons why they can not leave.They came to Palestine because they wanted 'nationhood' at the expense of others. They still do. And that's just unacceptable. They were able to travel to Palestine, so why can't they travel away again? What reasons why they cannot leave are there? And what reasons were there why the Palestinian Arabs did have to leave? Why not treat the Israelis as the Arabs were treated? Why?

You do realize that the Golan was taken after the last full Arab war? It is a defensive position for Israel. If I am readin the UN Resolutions correctly, they are entitled to have lands that are defensible.I really don't think that there are any US resolutions that support the breech of a country's territorial integrity.
Quote: The UN did not recognise the "annexation" and they officially consider the Heights to be Israeli occupied. This view was expressed in the unanimous non-binding UN Security Council Resolution 497 stating that "the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect." It, like other relevant UN resolutions takes care to not explicitly call it an "annexation", referring at most to Israel's "annexationist policies."

You do have a point about the West Bank settlements. I really wish they would stop that. That is not helping matters much.Well, it's colonization. And the purpose is obvious.

As to not wanting peace, I will say that you are wrong there. They do want peace. They want to be left alone.Yes, they want peace. Graveyard peace.

There's plenty of basis for negotiations. It is to bad that Hamas cannot realize that. I will tell you right now. If Hamas announced tomorrow that they are going to disarm, you will see peace happening really fast.Under what terms? Sovereignty for the Palestinians? In what borders? As soon as the Palestinians give up resistance Israel will take advantage and finally annex the West Bank.

A shame for you! How could someone have so much hate?What does that have to do with hate? I just cannot ignore injustice. And the Jewish immigration into Palestine and the subsequent creation of Israel is injustice. And the constant deterioration of the Palestinians' status since then is injustice. Why do you pretend that Israel is as any other state?

There is alot more there than what you are making it out to be. I suggest you do take a class on the Middle East. It might open your eyes as to the fact that both parties are responsible for the violence that is there. Not just Israel.The concerted Jewish mass immigration into Palestine with the set aim to create a state (=remove those who live in the land where that state was supposed to be created) was the first act of violence. Arabs have only been reacting since then. Without Israel there would be no violence.

When negotiations happen and when a settlement is reached, I will guarentee you now that the building of settlements will probably cease.And the settlements inside the West Bank (inside the Green Line) will just disappear along with the Wall/Fence? And all Israeli military will withdraw from the West Bank including the Jordan valley? You are certainly trying to be funny.


So fucking what?Yes, of course. Injustice is ok, as long as it is not directed against yourself, right?

Yes, of course. Injustice is ok, as long as it is not directed against yourself, right?

No. But to perpetrate an injustice in order to right a perceived injustice helps no one.

No. But to perpetrate an injustice in order to right a perceived injustice helps no one.Yes it does. It helps the victims of the original injustice.

Yes it does. It helps the victims of the original injustice.

Really? Do you think all of those claims of specific land are legitimate? Do you honestly believe all those who have legitimate claims would get back what they lost? I am not so sanguine.

And even then, what of the equally legitimate claims of all those you just stole from? Do you think THEY will not then wage war to get back what is THEIRS?

Simple solutions sound good to simple minds. Real solutions take much more thought, effort and time. Negotiation and a two-state solution is the only way to have peace.

Not to mention that you are ADVOCATING exactly what you are calling "unacceptable."

I don't think the Zionists will ever get over their victim complex.

I don't think the Zionists will ever get over their victim complex.

What, if anything, does that have to do with the thread..?

What, if anything, does that have to do with the thread..?

I am giving IDF more quotes.

I am giving IDF more quotes.

Oh. Well, don't let me stop you...

Under what terms? Sovereignty for the Palestinians? In what borders? As soon as the Palestinians give up resistance Israel will take advantage and finally annex the West Bank.

Wow you talked with the government of Israel and they TOLD you this? Wow... I would think they'd keep it more of a secret.

If they wanted West bank they could have had it a LONG time ago.

Seriously, they could line their armies on one side of the nation and march through killing every single palestinan and get away with it.

So why haven't they? By your claim that's what they want.

The world isn't black and white.

I am giving IDF more quotes.
And making me glad I have you on my IGNORE list.

LC et al's arg: You're fucking retarded this isn't going to happen and the removal was justified. Plus you're probably an anti-semite.

Umm I would never say the F word nor call someone retarded. I also would not call anyone an anti-semite either.

They came to Palestine because they wanted 'nationhood' at the expense of others. They still do. And that's just unacceptable. They were able to travel to Palestine, so why can't they travel away again?

Because it is their home. That is why it is unacceptable for them to leave.

What reasons why they cannot leave are there? And what reasons were there why the Palestinian Arabs did have to leave? Why not treat the Israelis as the Arabs were treated? Why?

For the Israelis, they will not leave because it is their home. You are the one stating that someone should not be forced from their homes but that is precisely what you are advocating here. You are advocating the samething that you are condemning Israel for doing.

For the Palestinians, no they should not have been forced from their homes. The problem is, both sides forced the Palestinians from their homes. To treat the Israelis as the Palestinians were treated is the same injustice. For someone advocating justice to want the same treatment is hypocritical.

I really don't think that there are any US resolutions that support the breech of a country's territorial integrity.

I do not think it was right for Syria and Egypt to try to jump Israel (and by doing so violate the UN Charter) I do not think it was right for the nations of the Middle East to attack Israel in violation of the UN Charter either.

Quote: The UN did not recognise the "annexation" and they officially consider the Heights to be Israeli occupied. This view was expressed in the unanimous non-binding UN Security Council Resolution 497 stating that "the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect." It, like other relevant UN resolutions takes care to not explicitly call it an "annexation", referring at most to Israel's "annexationist policies."

You have a slight problem here and it is the part about it being Non-Binding. Anything coming out of the UNSC is normally always binding. The fact that this is non-binding means that it does not need to be followed. Now if this was binding, then you would have a nice point and I would have congratulated you for it.

Well, it's colonization. And the purpose is obvious.

I am not going to get into a vindictiveness game. All I said was that I wish they would stop doing so.

Yes, they want peace. Graveyard peace.

Do you have anything nice to say at all?

Under what terms? Sovereignty for the Palestinians? In what borders?

The borders laid out in the past with the Green Line being part of that border.

As soon as the Palestinians give up resistance Israel will take advantage and finally annex the West Bank.

And your proof of this is? Oh speaking of which, you have yet to provide proof for other things I have asked you to provide proof for.

What does that have to do with hate?

It has everything to do with hate.

I just cannot ignore injustice. And the Jewish immigration into Palestine and the subsequent creation of Israel is injustice. And the constant deterioration of the Palestinians' status since then is injustice. Why do you pretend that Israel is as any other state?

I pretend? I am not pretending that they are not a state. You say I am pretending that Israel is any other state? Maybe that is because they are indeed a state. They are recognized by the United Nations as a state and as such, they are a state. They have their own currency, constitution, borders, and government. By definition, they are indeed a state.

You say that I am ignoring justice. No I am not ignoring their Palestinians plight. The problem is that I cannot do much because of the constent suicide attacks against Israeli citizens. I also condemn the attacks on citizens done by Israel too. I just do not advocate ethnic cleansing which I abhore.

The concerted Jewish mass immigration into Palestine with the set aim to create a state (=remove those who live in the land where that state was supposed to be created) was the first act of violence. Arabs have only been reacting since then. Without Israel there would be no violence.

Which goes to show how ignorant you truly are when it comes to the Middle East.

And the settlements inside the West Bank (inside the Green Line) will just disappear along with the Wall/Fence? And all Israeli military will withdraw from the West Bank including the Jordan valley? You are certainly trying to be funny.

Actually no I am not trying to be funny. This is the whole point of actually negotiations. When negotiations succeed, great things tend to occur. I point to the Egyptian and Jordanian Peace treaties as prime examples. In the Egyptian Peace Treaty, they actually gave up territory to the Egyptians. This is what they have been saying. Land for peace.

No. But to perpetrate an injustice in order to right a perceived injustice helps no one.

You are most definitely right. It is just another injustice that will spark even more violence than we have now.

Really? Do you think all of those claims of specific land are legitimate? Do you honestly believe all those who have legitimate claims would get back what they lost? I am not so sanguine.

And even then, what of the equally legitimate claims of all those you just stole from? Do you think THEY will not then wage war to get back what is THEIRS?

Simple solutions sound good to simple minds. Real solutions take much more thought, effort and time. Negotiation and a two-state solution is the only way to have peace.

Not to mention that you are ADVOCATING exactly what you are calling "unacceptable."

*stands up and applauds*