NationStates Jolt Archive

JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Sunday that there was still time for international diplomatic efforts to curb Iran's nuclear ambitions, without the need for military action.


"I believe the international efforts will achieve the goals," Olmert said. "There is no need to get caught up in any apocalyptic prophecies that have no basis in reality."

WOW!!! Israel believes that this issue can be handled peacefully. I agree. It can be handled peacefully.

What are your thoughts on it?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_olmert_iran;_ylt=Aj2ZgsWU3xkPYp1qYNSpdYFw24cA

An Israeli PM is talking about peace? Then an Israeli military action is about to come very soon.

On the other hand, Olmert is right,of course. As soon as Bush is out of office the Iranians can revert to pursuing nuclear power plants without having to match with the stupid rhetoric and insults from the White House.

An Israeli PM is talking about peace? Then an Israeli military action is about to come very soon.

ANd you have proof to back up that statement?

On the other hand, Olmert is right,of course. As soon as Bush is out of office the Iranians can revert to pursuing nuclear power plants without having to match with the stupid rhetoric and insults from the White House.

Pardon me? This makes zero sense whatsoever.

ANd you have proof to back up that statement?Well, everytime Sharon talked around peace, shortly afterwards he sent helicopters somewhere to kill alleged terrorists (and in the process often killing many many civilians) or bulldozers were sent to demolish Palestinian housing while Jewish settlements were and are constantly expanded. It's just so that the media will focus on the 'peace' efforts instead of what else they are doing.

Pardon me? This makes zero sense whatsoever.Oh come on, the whole thing was started by the Bush admin constantly insulting Iran and using the UN nuclear inspections to spy on Iran. Of course I can understand why the folks around Bush don't want Iran to seek replacement for oil as energy source, but that does not at all mean that Iran has no right to gain nuclear power. And as soon as the butthole in the White House is gone the Iranians can safely resume diplomacy and open up their facilities to inspectors (non-USAmericans of course).

Well, everytime Sharon talked around peace, shortly afterwards he sent helicopters somewhere to kill alleged terrorists (and in the process often killing many many civilians) or bulldozers were sent to demolish Palestinian housing while Jewish settlements were and are constantly expanded. It's just so that the media will focus on the 'peace' efforts instead of what else they are doing.

And have you ever stop to consider that maybe some of the things that Israel has done is in response to attacks against them?

Oh come on, the whole thing was started by the Bush admin constantly insulting Iran and using the UN nuclear inspections to spy on Iran.

United Beleriand, this has been going on LONG before Bush and Iran.

Of course I can understand why the folks around Bush don't want Iran to seek replacement for oil as energy source, but that does not at all mean that Iran has no right to gain nuclear power.

No one is denying them nuclear power. Not even Bush.

And have you ever stop to consider that maybe some of the things that Israel has done is in response to attacks against them?The only attack here is Jews coming to take Palestinian land since the 1890s. Reacting is what Palestinian Arabs have done ever since then.

United Beleriand, this has been going on LONG before Bush and Iran.But Bush created a conflict scenario out of Iran's energy concerns.

No one is denying them nuclear power. Not even Bush.Then why the fuss?

Wait, I get it.

The entire of Palestine has logged on as United Beleriand, while the whole of Israel has logged on as LancasterCounty.

They’re going to settle their differences through flamewar!

Wait, I get it.

The entire of Palestine has logged on as United Beleriand, while the whole of Israel has logged on as LancasterCounty.

They’re going to settle their differences through flamewar!
Looks like we might be needing international peacekeepers then.

Looks like we might be needing international peacekeepers then.

Peacekeeper Myrth?

Looks like we might be needing international peacekeepers then.
I'll be the UN, so I can do shit all because of the vested interests of my members. (Being Chemistry & Biology coursework.)

The only attack here is Jews coming to take Palestinian land since the 1890s. Reacting is what Palestinian Arabs have done ever since then.

Is that any excuse to go after innocent men, women, and children? No it is not.

But Bush created a conflict scenario out of Iran's energy concerns.

So says you. However, I bet this was going to happen anyway judging by the state of the Iranian economy.

Then why the fuss?

Because Iran is not following the proper procedure to make sure that they are just going after nuclear power.

Is that any excuse to go after innocent men, women, and children? No it is not.Then tell the Israelis to leave. There was no conflict before they came and there will be none after they have left.

So says you. However, I bet this was going to happen anyway judging by the state of the Iranian economy.No. Without Bush nobody would have cared. Just as nobody had cared when India and Pakistan developed nukes.

Because Iran is not following the proper procedure to make sure that they are just going after nuclear power.And why should they? The US has nuclear weapons and the US has been threatening Iran since their puppet ruler was removed from power in Iran. Even if Iran were to pursue nuclear weapons (although its religious leaders have spoken against that) I don't see any reason why they shouldn't while the US already has nukes. After all, the US has invaded two countries in recent years that both border Iran.

Then tell the Israelis to leave. There was no conflict before they came and there will be none after they have left.

Oh there was conflict there United Beleriand before the state of Israel was created.

No. Without Bush nobody would have cared. Just as nobody had cared when India and Pakistan developed nukes.

You can stop with the Bush card. I am not buying it. I notice that you brought up India and Pakistan. Two nations that are not part of the NPT. And yes, they did care when they developed nukes. Now you have two hostile nations who hate one another with nuclear arms. That is not good.

And why should they? The US has nuclear weapons and the US has been threatening Iran since their puppet ruler was removed from power in Iran.

Funny. I do not remember threats being made to Iran. We are trying to negotiate with them but yet, when one side wants to negotiate (US, EU, UN) and the other side does not (Iran) then nothing will get accomplished.

Even if Iran were to pursue nuclear weapons (although its religious leaders have spoken against that) I don't see any reason why they shouldn't while the US already has nukes. After all, the US has invaded two countries in recent years that both border Iran.

They should not have nuclear weapons because Iran is bound by treaty obligations not to. Do you not understand that?

Is that any excuse to go after innocent men, women, and children? No it is not.It's a catch-22. If you do like the Palestinian civilians and get the hell out of the way when war erupts, you'll be stripped of your possessions, thrown in camps in foreign countries, and denied the right to return (hell, even denied the fact you didn't just materialize in the camps from out of nowhere).

If you do like the Israeli civillians and stay in a warzone, you'll get hurt.

It's not an excuse, it's not fair, it's got fuck-all to do with justice. It's just reality. And of course, it ignores the simple fact that Israeli military oppression of the Palestinian terrritories kills fuckloads more civilians than armed Palestinian resistance groups ever did.So says you. However, I bet this was going to happen anyway judging by the state of the Iranian economy.Massive, and seemingly effective, diplomatic and economic efforts were under way before Bush started threatening people left & right. When he did it, those efforts ceases to have any basis in reality. He's all but made a nuclear armed Iran a necessity. How else can the nation ensure it doesn't get wiped out by some fucked up US fascist regime?

Don't just listen to the rethoric. Look at the facts. Compared to the US, Iran is the model of a peace loving society.Because Iran is not following the proper procedure to make sure that they are just going after nuclear power.Yeh.. They were gonna. Then along came a neoCon.

Oh there was conflict there United Beleriand before the state of Israel was created.The creation of Israel does not mark the beginning of Jews coming en masse to Palestine. Prior to this immigration (with the set ideological aim to create a state) there was no conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. And later the UN drew up the division plan for Palestine because of the conflict that resulted from the Jewish immigration. And this invasion and occupation of Palestine by Jews continues until today.

You can stop with the Bush card. I am not buying it. I notice that you brought up India and Pakistan. Two nations that are not part of the NPT. And yes, they did care when they developed nukes. Now you have two hostile nations who hate one another with nuclear arms. That is not good.But who made a fuss to stop these two from gaining nukes? Bush? The US? So why now with Iran? It's obvious: because the US have always hated Iran since the Iranians sent the US-darling Shah packing.

Funny. I do not remember threats being made to Iran. We are trying to negotiate with them but yet, when one side wants to negotiate (US, EU, UN) and the other side does not (Iran) then nothing will get accomplished. The US is constantly making threats and insults towards Iran. And not just since Bush created his "axis of evil". And the US have no diplomatic ties with Iran.

They should not have nuclear weapons because Iran is bound by treaty obligations not to. Do you not understand that?Then they should step out of the treaties if they keep Iran from creating a proper defense against possible US ambitions.

And of course, it ignores the simple fact that Israeli military oppression of the Palestinian terrritories kills fuckloads more civilians than armed Palestinian resistance groups ever did.

The number of casualties isn't relevant to who is in the right.

Also, Israel's superior health service keeps Israeli fatalities artificially low. In the recent Israel-Lebanon conflict for example, 43 Israeli civilians died compared to about 1035-1191 Lebanese citizens (the Lebanese government didn't distinguish between civilians and combattents in the death toll but estimate that about 500 Hezbollah fighters died). This means that the Lebanese suffered over 1,000 fatalities more than Israel. If, however, you compare the number of people injured then you find 4,409 injured Lebanese and 4,262 injured Israelis, a difference of only about 150.

The creation of Israel does not mark the beginning of Jews coming en masse to Palestine. Prior to this immigration (with the set ideological aim to create a state) there was no conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine.

Oh there was some.

And later the UN drew up the division plan for Palestine because of the conflict that resulted from the Jewish immigration. And this invasion and occupation of Palestine by Jews continues until today.

I guess you do not know what that partition looked liked? Palestine had much larger territory and Israel had smaller territory. After the Israeli War of Independence, all hope for a palestinian state was placed on the back burner as the West Bank went to Jordan (then kicked out the Palestinians because of an assassination attempt on their King) and the Gaza strip went to Egypt.

But who made a fuss to stop these two from gaining nukes? Bush? The US? So why now with Iran? It's obvious: because the US have always hated Iran since the Iranians sent the US-darling Shah packing.

Because Iran is a signatory to the NPT whereas India and Pakistan is not. That is the primary difference. On that same note, Israel is not a signatory to the NPT either come to think of that.

The US is constantly making threats and insults towards Iran. And not just since Bush created his "axis of evil". And the US have no diplomatic ties with Iran.

WHen someone takes over your embassy and the government does nothing about it, of course there is not going to be ties.

Then they should step out of the treaties if they keep Iran from creating a proper defense against possible US ambitions.

If they want to step out, let them. Let them do it just like North Korea did.

No. Without Bush nobody would have cared. Just as nobody had cared when India and Pakistan developed nukes.

Speak for yourself. I have family in Mumbai.

Speak for yourself. I have family in Mumbai.

May the Lord protect them.

May the Lord protect them.

Thanks, though I'd prefer some sort of nuclear defense shield, personally.

Oh there was some.How? The Arabs have not even been in control of the area then. And they have never been since then.

I guess you do not know what that partition looked liked? Palestine had much larger territory and Israel had smaller territory. After the Israeli War of Independence, all hope for a palestinian state was placed on the back burner as the West Bank went to Jordan (then kicked out the Palestinians because of an assassination attempt on their King) and the Gaza strip went to Egypt. I know what the partition looked like. The Jews were getting the valuable northwest, while the Arabs were getting the central hills and Gaza. But since the European Jews were not supposed to be there in the first place the territorial division of Palestine by outside powers without the population's consent is of no relevance.

Because Iran is a signatory to the NPT whereas India and Pakistan is not. That is the primary difference. On that same note, Israel is not a signatory to the NPT either come to think of that.Then Iran should step out of the NPT, if it is used by the US to compromise Iranian security.

WHen someone takes over your embassy and the government does nothing about it, of course there is not going to be ties.Wtf are you talking about? The embassy was taken over when the Iranians removed the US puppet emperor and regained power over their own country. What should any government have done about it? They should have rather punished the embassy employees for supporting the Shah's tyranny.

If they want to step out, let them. Let them do it just like North Korea did.And the US will shut up? And finally behave?

How?

I guess you do not know the history of the region that well if one has to be explained to you. There has always been violence there. Granted, most of the area has lived in peace but there has been violence there.

I know what the partition looked like. The Jews were getting the valuable northwest, while the Arabs were getting the central hills and Gaza. But since the European Jews were not supposed to be there in the first place the territorial division of Palestine by outside powers without the population's consent is of no relevance.

Not supposed to be there in the first place? According to whom?

Then Iran should step out of the NPT, if it is used by the US to compromise Iranian security.

Oh for Pete's sake. I would not mind if they stepped out however to blame the US in this soley is pathetic.

Wtf are you talking about? The embassy was taken over when the Iranians removed the US puppet emperor and regained power over their own country.

And the new government did not do anything about it.

What should any government have done about it?

Umm how about telling their citizens to leave the embassy or else? The taking of the Embassy by the means they did and with the Iranian Government doing nothing about it, that puts the Iranians in complete violation of International Law.

They should have rather punished the embassy employees for supporting the Shah's tyranny.

Since the employees at the embassy did not violate any national or international law, that would be seen as stupid.

And the US will shut up? And finally behave?

:rolleyes:

I guess you do not know the history of the region that well if one has to be explained to you. There has always been violence there. Granted, most of the area has lived in peace but there has been violence there.Between Arabs and Jews? During Turkish rule?

Not supposed to be there in the first place? According to whom?According to those who actually lived there.

Oh for Pete's sake. I would not mind if they stepped out however to blame the US in this soley is pathetic.Well, the only real threat to Iran is the US, especially under an oil-drenched republican president.

And the new government did not do anything about it.Of course not. They wanted the US out of their country.

Umm how about telling their citizens to leave the embassy or else? The taking of the Embassy by the means they did and with the Iranian Government doing nothing about it, that puts the Iranians in complete violation of International Law.And the active US support for the Shah's bloody regime was fortunately not against International Law?

Since the employees at the embassy did not violate any national or international law, that would be seen as stupid.? An embassy is the direct representation of a state. So if Iranians were planning to act against those foreign powers who interfered in their internal affairs, attacking the US embassy was the right thing to do, wasn't it?

:rolleyes:Oh, you mean the US is always right and can patronize all others?

The number of casualties isn't relevant to who is in the right.My point exactly.

Incidentally, I wasn't talking about the husk formerly known as Lebanon, but about the occupied Palestinian terrotories - just like I said.

If Israel thinks it can be handled without blowing somebody to hell, it probably can be.

*SNIP* I advise everyone to ignore this guy. He won't argue seriously and instead will completely dodge the question with another of his own. He is a Ferrous Cranus (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm)\Artful Dodger (http://redwing.hutman.net/% 7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm) and is incapable of reason.

Between Arabs and Jews? During Turkish rule?

There was some just as there were some against the Turks as well. Not everyone was happy with Turkish Rule.

According to those who actually lived there.

And you know this how?

Well, the only real threat to Iran is the US, especially under an oil-drenched republican president.

Oh brother. I am not even going to get started on this. This is a whole separate thread.

Of course not. They wanted the US out of their country.

That is not a reason to take over an embassy. That is a violation of International Law.

And the active US support for the Shah's bloody regime was fortunately not against International Law?

No it was not against International law.

? An embassy is the direct representation of a state. So if Iranians were planning to act against those foreign powers who interfered in their internal affairs, attacking the US embassy was the right thing to do, wasn't it?

No it was not.

Oh, you mean the US is always right and can patronize all others?

Did I say that?

I advise everyone to ignore this guy. He won't argue seriously and instead will completely dodge the question with another of his own. He is a Ferrous Cranus (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm)\Artful Dodger (http://redwing.hutman.net/% 7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm) and is incapable of reason.

"Gobshite" is the expression I use meself......

NOOK EM TO HELLZ!! J/K


I still think a regime change in Iran is best, the government doesn't treat it's people right, more like subhuman. I don't think they support them at all. My question is how to deal with that.

Wait, I get it.

The entire of Palestine has logged on as United Beleriand, while the whole of Israel has logged on as LancasterCounty.

They’re going to settle their differences through flamewar!:D Looks like we might be needing international peacekeepers then.i need Popcorn :D

Wait, I get it.

The entire of Palestine has logged on as United Beleriand, while the whole of Israel has logged on as LancasterCounty.

They’re going to settle their differences through flamewar!


Looks like we might be needing international peacekeepers then.


*Drives through a wall in the thread in Leclerc tank, flying UN colours. Opens hatch*

Bonjour! Les Nations Unies est ici!

Well thats the first UN casualty.....

I advise everyone to ignore this guy. He won't argue seriously and instead will completely dodge the question with another of his own. He is a Ferrous Cranus (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm)\Artful Dodger (http://redwing.hutman.net/% 7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm) and is incapable of reason.You mean I just don't share the American Israel-friendly Muslim-hating 'reason' so prevalent in this forum. Or the 'reason' of those who only look at how things currently are without giving a shit how it came to this or who is responsible for the current state of things.

The US has got to be the most hypocritical nation in this world.

The US gave chemical weapons, tanks, shells, rifles and every other kind of inhumane death machine possible to help Saddam slaughter the Iranians in their thousands, they were gassed, shot in mass graves, maimed, tortured and murdered by US tax payers under official US foreign policy, nearly a million, all to stop the Iranian Revolution overthrowing the brutal suppressive regime of the Shah, and to try and gain US/British monopolies of the vast oil reserves, which of course goes all the way back to WWII when the Allies didn't want Stalin to partition Iran and get their oil. The US is the only nuclear transgressor in human history, why on earth after all these things are people surprised that Iran dislikes the US? You tried to have them wiped off the face of the earth for one...

I support Iranian ambitions for a strategic deterrent nuclear weapon, in this way it will assure this Iranian generation will never ever have to face the horrors the previous one did.

You mean I just don't share the American Israel-friendly Muslim-hating 'reason' so prevalent in this forum. Or the 'reason' of those who only look at how things currently are without giving a shit how it came to this or who is responsible for the current state of things.

Muslim hating? I'm sorry but I have not seen a nation post on here spouting hate for Muslims. Could you point to where it was said please?

WOW!!! Israel believes that this issue can be handled peacefully. I agree. It can be handled peacefully.

What are your thoughts on it?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_olmert_iran;_ylt=Aj2ZgsWU3xkPYp1qYNSpdYFw24cA

Possibly by using the same tactics used when Israel was developing its nuclear programme - ignore it completely.

Or the 'reason' of those who only look at how things currently are without giving a shit how it came to this or who is responsible for the current state of things.
I suspect this was targetted at me and I take the shot straight on. History can take a running jump if all it does is keep people blowing the crap out of each other.

*sigh*

Everyone likes to flip out when Israel tries to do something nice. Sure, Israel has a bad history...I mean, who doesn't now a days? Tell me if there is a major power that hasn't done something either incredibly stupid or incredibly evil.

Sharon loved playing hardball, and he was the kind of guy to keep people protective over their own balls. Olmert is more or less a bit more softer, I honestly do believe that they'll try to get peace talks going.

In a way, they could be looking for Cassus Bellum. Try to have a peace talk, do something so Iran says no and Ahmadenijad says something about wanting to erase Israel from the face of the world, and then have Israeli-Piloted F-18s and the such suddenly appear over a lot of Iranian Nuclear Installations and v'oila... Arab Israeli War Round 3,248.

In the mean time, we shall always have people on NSG to entertain us.

PS -

I support Israel in just about anything they do. Look at what the Arabs would have done to the Jewish People in "Palestine" if Israel never became what it is today. You'd just bitch about Jewish Terrorists and whine that the UN should do more to remove them, and help the poor Arab Governments trying to keep the peace.

Well, thats all from me. One time statement because I'm a easily argumentative person, and apparently I'm on my last chance with the NS Mods ;-).

Peace.