NationStates Jolt Archive

The Catholic church has scrapped the concept of limbo.

This means that unbaptised infants officially go to heaven, despite their lack of indoctrination.

I find this quite interesting.
Doesn't this negate the concept original sin?

I'm assuming this is retroactive; otherwise, they would be playing St. Peter, thus eliminating the need for God.

This means that they are admitting to being wrong about a major metaphysical portion of their religion.
So what exactly makes them think that they're right about everything else?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc

So when do they retroactively abolish Hell, for all of us people who haven't done anything to deserve eternal torture?

(That is, virtually everyone... I can't imagine what kind of crime would ever justify such a sentence.)

atheist and agnostics don't go to catholic heaven. They go to the eternal tiki bar in the sky.

So when do they retroactively abolish Hell, for all of us people who haven't done anything to deserve eternal torture?

But you have done something.
Your ancestors ate an apple.
Therefore, you shall pay for their sins... unless you are under a certain age... or something.

i believe what they have done is to come down on the side of a loving god rather than a god who damns children for legalistic reasons.

considering that jesus took other non-christians out of hell to join him in heaven, it seems not an unreasonable stance.

Ooh... huge flaws with that. I saw an article going in-depth about that (don't have URL), but according to that I can do whatever I want and still get into heaven because I wasn't baptized.

Edit: Or the great tiki-bar in the sky. Whichever.

So what exactly makes them think that they're right about everything else?You can in fact ask that question to every Christian, Muslim, and Jew.

So when do they retroactively abolish Hell, for all of us people who haven't done anything to deserve eternal torture?

I find Terry Pratchett's Discworld view on heaven and hell probably would be right up many peoples' alleys 'round here... they kill missionaries as soon as they know they are in the area, because the only heaven or hell people go to is the one they BELIEVE in. No belief in hell, no eternal torment.

But yeah, I knew the view had changed years ago (about unbaptized babies going to heaven now). There was a stillbirth in the family, and the grieving parents wanted the baby baptized -- the priest said he couldn't as the soul had already left the body, but that it didn't matter as the child was an innocent and surely already in the arms of God.

Besides, Limbo was never mentioned in the Bible -- it was an add-on. Now they've taken it off.

But you have done something.
Your ancestors ate an apple.

Probably not an apple, actually. The text just says "fruit."

Therefore, you shall pay for their sins...

According to the Catholic Church I have plenty of other "sins" to pay for, too. They don't even have to rely on guilt by descent.

I commit many of them without the slightest shame or regret, and would be incapable of sincerely asking for forgiveness even if I did believe in the whole God thing.

There are all kinds of reasons for which I'll burn for eternity... and none of them make the slightest brush with basic norms of moral decency.

Atheist go to Secular Heaven (http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_019.htm), an afterlife reserved exclusively for those who don't believe in it. :p

I thought the Church spoke for god and that they didnt decide what god wants..

I thought the Church spoke for god and that they didnt decide what god wants..

Yeah, but they're not infallible about most things.

So they can change their minds about what God's will actually is on a point of doctrine like this one.

I find Terry Pratchett's Discworld view on heaven and hell probably would be right up many peoples' alleys 'round here... they kill missionaries as soon as they know they are in the area, because the only heaven or hell people go to is the one they BELIEVE in. No belief in hell, no eternal torment.


In that case with a bit of work it's the stripper factory and beer volcano in the company of some complex carbohydrates. when I shuffle of me mortal coil.

i believe what they have done is to come down on the side of a loving god rather than a god who damns children for legalistic reasons.

considering that jesus took other non-christians out of hell to join him in heaven, it seems not an unreasonable stance.

Well, loving in the sense that he's not going to damn a particular subset of souls to eternal hellfire, but that's faint praise from my perspective. If they're going to claim he's truly loving, they need to do away with the exclusivity of heaven, seems to me, open it up to all sorts of dirty unwashed.

Not that it matters to me. Catholic Heaven sounds tedious.

Silly Catholics.
*abuses plenary indulgence*
*negates existence*

Silly Catholics.
*abuses plenary indulgence*
*negates existence*

DOGMA RIPOFF WARNING.

*abuses plenary indulgence for the hell of it too*

The Catholic church has scrapped the concept of limbo.

This means that unbaptised infants officially go to heaven, despite their lack of indoctrination.

I find this quite interesting.
Doesn't this negate the concept original sin?

I'm assuming this is retroactive; otherwise, they would be playing St. Peter, thus eliminating the need for God.

This means that they are admitting to being wrong about a major metaphysical portion of their religion.
So what exactly makes them think that they're right about everything else?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc

How lovely. So, when will he abolish other outmoded concepts like a celibate, all male priesthood?

Athiests still went to hell according to them when they did have limbo.

Well, loving in the sense that he's not going to damn a particular subset of souls to eternal hellfire, but that's faint praise from my perspective. If they're going to claim he's truly loving, they need to do away with the exclusivity of heaven, seems to me, open it up to all sorts of dirty unwashed.

Not that it matters to me. Catholic Heaven sounds tedious.

hey just because they came down in the side of a loving god on THIS issue doesnt mean that they have to do so on EVERY issue.

they opened it up to orthodox christians and to those people who lived a good life but had no opportunity to know anything about the church. give them time, theyll get around to you.

besides, until then we still get the tiki-bar!

How lovely. So, when will he abolish other outmoded concepts like a celibate, all male priesthood?

No.

This has been today's addition of "Ask a rhetorical question, get an answer."

Well, loving in the sense that he's not going to damn a particular subset of souls to eternal hellfire, but that's faint praise from my perspective. If they're going to claim he's truly loving, they need to do away with the exclusivity of heaven, seems to me, open it up to all sorts of dirty unwashed.

Not that it matters to me. Catholic Heaven sounds tedious.

Better than Southern Baptist heaven by leagues, though. At least the wine will give you a decent buzz.

If you've ever watched South Park, you'd know that only Mormons go to heaven. Jeez.

If you've ever watched South Park, you'd know that only Mormons go to heaven. Jeez.And South Park is the authority on such issues?

No.

This has been today's addition of "Ask a rhetorical question, get an answer."

An even remotely relevant answer would've been "never".

You fail. Hard.

Athiests still went to hell according to them when they did have limbo.
Yeah, but we all know that in the real world all followers of any abrahamic religion are going to "hell".

Infants go to Heaven because they are not capable of understanding the concept of God and making that decision for themselves. They cannot understand the consequences for their sins and are therefore innocent and taken to Heaven, as is any person who is not capable of understanding the sacrifice of Jesus.

And South Park is the authority on such issues?

You have never watched South Park, have you? Do you even know what it is? That was a surprisingly stupid answer to something that was quite obviously a joke... :confused:

Infants go to Heaven because they are not capable of understanding the concept of God and making that decision for themselves. They cannot understand the consequences for their sins and are therefore innocent and taken to Heaven, as is any person who is not capable of understanding the sacrifice of Jesus.You mean they are in a state like Adam was in before he tried the fruit of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste brought death into the world, and all our woe, with loss of Eden, till one greater man restore us, and regain the blissful seat?

It doesn't negate anything. It means biblical scholars realised they screwed up. In an organisation with am undue amount of rules, this will happen from time to time.
This isn't the first time this has happened either. There's the part in the bible that says something along the lines of "you're not responsible for what you don't know(no, that doesn't mean if you've never cracked a bible you get a free pass)," I'm reasonably certain that's part of their basis for their decision.
I thought everyone would be more questioning of the allusion they mainly did this because of all the abortions.

The Catholic church has scrapped the concept of limbo.

This means that unbaptised infants officially go to heaven, despite their lack of indoctrination.

I find this quite interesting.
Doesn't this negate the concept original sin?

I'm assuming this is retroactive; otherwise, they would be playing St. Peter, thus eliminating the need for God.

This means that they are admitting to being wrong about a major metaphysical portion of their religion.
So what exactly makes them think that they're right about everything else?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc



This is why people laugh at them, they keep changing their beliefs just to retain power. Comical. Reason #1,234,560,230,103 not to be a catholic.

This is why people laugh at them, they keep changing their beliefs just to retain power. Comical. Reason #1,234,560,230,103 not to be a catholic.However, Catholicism is growing. And when one day the real conflict of religions will be fought, it is Catholicism that will have the stature to stand against Islam. Because Protestantism is weak.

However, Catholicism is growing. And when one day the real conflict of religions will be fought, it is Catholicism that will have the stature to stand against Islam. Because Protestantism is weak.


Islam grows faster and will be the #1 religion in the world withing 50 years. And the FACT remains atheism is growing faster in all western nations.

This is why people laugh at them, they keep changing their beliefs just to retain power. Comical. Reason #1,234,560,230,103 not to be a catholic.

If you read the article, the Pope's reasoning is that it was never a theological truth, merely a hypothesis presented on the problem. Wikipedia bears this out.

My guess is that the original concept of limbo was driven by peoples' fears of what would happen if their child died before baptism - quite an easy thing to happen back in the middle ages. As a result, church theologians gave it a bit of a thought, and limbo was probably one of the results. Not surprisingly, such a compromise must have been snapped up by the masses even without it being dogmatically defined. And once it's in the public sphere, popular ideas like that die hard.
Looks like another old bit of popular, non-official Catholicism has finally been closed down by the Pope after years of discussion - hardly "changing their beliefs just to retain power".

This is good news. They never should have made the limbo upgrade at all. It slowed down the whole game and opened up a bunch of security windows. It was always full of n00bs and the vets always complained about it too.

This is good news. They never should have made the limbo upgrade at all. It slowed down the whole game and opened up a bunch of security windows. It was always full of n00bs and the vets always complained about it too.

I must say, I like the concept of Catholic Heaven being an MMORPG.

This is good news. They never should have made the limbo upgrade at all. It slowed down the whole game and opened up a bunch of security windows. It was always full of n00bs and the vets always complained about it too.

i dont know what they were thinking. once the limbus patrum security hole was patched it make no sense to open the limbus infantum. its been a thousand year pain in the ass.

This is good news. They never should have made the limbo upgrade at all. It slowed down the whole game and opened up a bunch of security windows. It was always full of n00bs and the vets always complained about it too.

You win.

(That is, virtually everyone... I can't imagine what kind of crime would ever justify such a sentence.)

I thought the catholic idea of hell is just death, not eternal torture?

This is good news. They never should have made the limbo upgrade at all. It slowed down the whole game and opened up a bunch of security windows. It was always full of n00bs and the vets always complained about it too.

Not all upgrades are good.

I thought the catholic idea of hell is just death, not eternal torture?

No, there's very definitely a Catholic hell.

No, there's very definitely a Catholic hell.

Yeah, but I could have sworn that death is the hell.

No, there's very definitely a Catholic hell.

http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj041406.asp

I thought that a nice description of Catholic Hell. The Medieval model is overplayed anyway.

http://www.americancatholic.org/e-News/FriarJack/fj041406.asp

I thought that a nice description of Catholic Hell. The Medieval model is overplayed anyway.
Yes, I have seen that model more and more. Hell is overplayed wither way. It's mentioned 3 times in the bible. The rest of the time it says death is the consequence of not knowing Jesus. I tend to interpret that literally, i.e. nothingness.

Yeah, but I could have sworn that death is the hell.

More recently, biblical scholars are thinking that might be true. The Catholic Church is still teaching that hell is a real place.

I really have a hard time with "the wages of sin is death" being interpreted as "you're going to hell." If they meant hell, they would have said hell.

Many will disagree. I don't think disbelieving in hell undermines Christianity whatsoever.

The Catholic church has scrapped the concept of limbo.

This means that unbaptised infants officially go to heaven, despite their lack of indoctrination.

I find this quite interesting.
Doesn't this negate the concept original sin?

I'm assuming this is retroactive; otherwise, they would be playing St. Peter, thus eliminating the need for God.

This means that they are admitting to being wrong about a major metaphysical portion of their religion.
So what exactly makes them think that they're right about everything else?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070420/ts_nm/pope_limbo_dc

I never thought they were correct, there is no biblical foundation for limbo, and the concept of original sin, in terms of christian theology is answered with the sacrifice of christs blood...cleansing all sin, if indeed it does then an infant being incapable of sining and having been cleansed of original sin should indeed go to heaven...not heaven's parking lot or whatever limbo was supposed to be. Of course this is my religious subjectivity being laid over the generalized Catholic Religious subjectivity, making my rant no better then an athiest's religious subjectivity...so a better question then why do people who are catholic give any creedance to what the Roman Church declares is "Why does anyone who doesnt care if someone else does?"

Questioning people about their religious beliefs be it Thiest or Athiest or whatever fecking label you want to give is about as sensible as asking why they like or dont like a certain food or drink, and then asking for proof of the delicious or disgusting flavor...pointless. Really its more pointless then that because I can tell how to sample the food, you cant sample faith so why is this arguement beaten to death over and over on these damned boards?

they kill missionaries as soon as they know they are in the area

That's ghastly.

On the new limbo deal: This won't affect the white catholics around here. They still don't think they can eat meat on Fridays.

I'm sure it'll mean something to the Hispanic churches though. They tend to be far more loyal to the Vatican.

That's ghastly.

On the new limbo deal: This won't affect the white catholics around here. They still don't think they can eat meat on Fridays.

I'm sure it'll mean something to the Hispanic churches though. They tend to be far more loyal to the Vatican.

There's still churches out there that want to follow Vatican I traditions. Most Catholics (Mexican too) observe the fish on Friday tradition during lent. And no meat on Good Friday.

Islam grows faster and will be the #1 religion in the world withing 50 years. And the FACT remains atheism is growing faster in all western nations.

Yes, but luckily Western Nations themselves are not growing, they are lossing the battle of the bedroom. Added to the capitalized "FACT" bucket.

More recently, biblical scholars are thinking that might be true. The Catholic Church is still teaching that hell is a real place.

I really have a hard time with "the wages of sin is death" being interpreted as "you're going to hell." If they meant hell, they would have said hell.

Many will disagree. I don't think disbelieving in hell undermines Christianity whatsoever.

i tend to agree with you. what else does that phrase mean? why shouldnt it be taken at face value.

the wages of sin are death, not an eternal life of torment

that is not only a more compassionate view of god--either you get the gift of eternal life in heaven or you dont and never know it, its also a more comforting thought to people who have family members who have died without hope of heaven. how could anyone enjoy heaven knowing that mommy is burning in hellfire?

Hell, i.e. the fiery lake is for the fallen angels only anyways, not for humans. Bad humans just die and are not resurrected in heaven, that's all.

I still doubt there would be too many atheists or agnostics in Catholic Heaven.. I mean, sending them there would probably be a pretty effective conversion tool.. :p

lol. good point.

I still doubt there would be too many atheists or agnostics in Catholic Heaven.. I mean, sending them there would probably be a pretty effective conversion tool.. :p

atheist and agnostics don't go to catholic heaven. They go to the eternal tiki bar in the sky.

with limbo dancing ?