NationStates Jolt Archive

Toddler fight family spared jail
A mother who goaded her two toddlers to fight each other on video camera has received a 12-month suspended sentence, along with her mother and two sisters.
Zara Olver, 21, her 48-year-old mother Carole, and sisters Serenza Olver, 29, and Danielle Olver, 19, all admitted child cruelty at Plymouth Crown Court.

In the footage, a boy in a nappy was called a "wimp" for not hitting his sister back after she struck him.

The women laughed as the children hit each other with brushes and magazines.

But the footage was found by chance by the toddlers' father, on leave from the army, and he told social services.


Anyone watching this footage... would have been sickened and saddened
Det Sgt Barry Walters

The boy, aged two, is seen crying after being punched in the face by his three-year-old sister and is told by one of the four women in the room "not to be a wimp or a faggot" and to hit the girl back.

The court heard that, when interviewed by police, Carole Olver said: "I didn't see any harm in toughening them up - I done the same with my own children."

Zara Olver pleaded guilty to causing or procuring the children to be ill treated in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury.


Her mother and sisters pleaded guilty to jointly inciting the ill treatment of children.
Judge Francis Gilbert gave all four women, from North Prospect in Plymouth, a one-year suspended sentence, saying they posed no risk to the public.

He also ordered the four to do 100 hours of unpaid work and banned them from working with children.

The children, who cannot be named for legal reasons, are in the care of the parents of their father.

'Dog fight'

The case came to court after the father returned from a posting in Iraq and found the images on a video camera.

He reported the matter to social services in Plymouth who alerted the police's child protection unit.


If there was an offence that deserved even 12 months in prison this was it
Michelle Elliott, Kidscape

Prosecutor David Gittins told the court that the father described the footage to police as being "like a dog fight".

"He was reduced to tears," Mr Gittins said.

"What he saw was not two children playing, but an eight-minute film of them being forced to fight."

Speaking after the case, investigating officer Det Sgt Barry Walters said: "Anyone watching this footage showing grown adults encouraging very young children committing unnatural acts would have been sickened and saddened.

"We have been in touch with child protection teams across the country and to my knowledge this is the first time that something like this has ever gone to court."

Michelle Elliott, director of children's charity Kidscape, said: "Quite frankly if there was an offence that deserved even 12 months in prison this was it.

"What they've done is send a message that this isn't a very serious thing and they've walked free. I think most people are outraged by that."



link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6574907.stm)

I'm literally speechless at this.

Honestly, that's what dogs are for, not children.

What an awful parent.

The term "Toddler Fight" just screams hilarity.

Sorry, but it does. It's not my fault...

I read about this when it first appeared. Been about for a few weeks if I recall.

It sickens me. Sickens. That people would goad their children on and dismiss it as "I [Carol] didn't see any harm in toughening them up - I done the same with my own children" is quite frankly disturbing.

However, this is most likely an isolated incident. With respect to that, the fact that they were not made an example of is shocking. Spared from jail? Thankyou Mssrs Blair, Reid, et al.

12 months in prison isn't a serious thing now?

also my sympathy's go to the father coming back from deployment to find his kids had been abused, I doubt he will be able to leave them again after a thing like this happened

also my sympathy's go to the father coming back from deployment to find his kids had been abused, I doubt he will be able to leave them again after a thing like this happened

Seconded. That must truly shatter a man to see something like that.

12 months in prison isn't a serious thing now?



They got a 12 month suspended sentence and community service. Provided they commit no other crimes for 12 months they'll avoid prison.

They got a 12 month suspended sentence and community service. Provided they commit no other crimes for 12 months they'll avoid prison.

Bollocks. Bollocks to this country's judicial system, and Bollocks to our judges. They deserve to be in the dock themselves for failing this country and it's law-abiding majority. That offence should've been a 3-year minimum.

Bollocks. Bollocks to this country's judicial system, and Bollocks to our judges. They deserve to be in the dock themselves for failing this country and it's law-abiding majority. That offence should've been a 3-year minimum.

..you do know they may never see there kids again right?

If this happened in Urchistan we would have given the kids knives and let them battle it out. Whoever lossed would be thrown in a river, the winner - if survived afterwards - would be given 40 Urcks(our currency) and told to by some sweets.
But that is us and we are a rough peoples.

Kalastikhan Palakaneer The advisor of stuff
Urchistan

..you do know they may never see there kids again right?

Evidently they didn't care that much about what they did, or they wouldn't have done it.

And Carol Olver certainly appears to be repentant. [/sarcasm]

Bollocks. Bollocks to this country's judicial system, and Bollocks to our judges. They deserve to be in the dock themselves for failing this country and it's law-abiding majority. That offence should've been a 3-year minimum.

Yes! Lets bring back public flogging and the death penalty for good measure!

Huzzah!

..you do know they may never see there kids again right?

They should have thought of that before they had the kids fight each other.

They should have thought of that before they had the kids fight each other.

but they didn't and thus they need serious counseling to find out how they could of gotten that fucked in the head

The term "Toddler Fight" just screams hilarity.

Sorry, but it does. It's not my fault...

next on fox..."when toddlers attack!!!"

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6574907.stm)

...

...

...

:(



Some people just don't deserve to be parents...

Now THIS is a thread on something that is newsworthy and quite appalling, as opposed to the silly Alec-Baldwin-shouted-at-his-kid thread.

THIS is an example of bad parenting. THESE are people who maybe shouldn't ever see their kids again. These people are right bastards who deserve to have the book thrown at them.

I vant to vatch "ven toddlers attack!" :mp5:

but they didn't and thus they need serious counseling to find out how they could of gotten that fucked in the head

Not thinking and thereby doing something incredibly stupid is hardly a reason to be given a second chance at being responsible for another human life. Besides, something like this gives these women an air of not giving a shit instead of not thinking.

but they didn't and thus they need serious counseling to find out how they could of gotten that fucked in the head

I would wager...
The court heard that, when interviewed by police, Carole Olver said: "I didn't see any harm in toughening them up - I done the same with my own children."

The father should have let it happen again then recorded it on camera and sold it to you tube and got money for it

Now THIS is a thread on something that is newsworthy and quite appalling, as opposed to the silly Adam-Baldwin-shouted-at-his-kid thread.


Alec not Adam!!!!!!

Adam Baldwin is an excellent actor who did a great job in Firefly and Serenity. He is NO relation to the other Baldwins, never calls his daughters pigs and rarely participates in toddler brawls. Get your GODDAMMED facts straight!!!!


:D

Not thinking and thereby doing something incredibly stupid is hardly a reason to be given a second chance at being responsible for another human life. Besides, something like this gives these women an air of not giving a shit instead of not thinking.

yes but prison is flimsily justified as a deterrent, a mother being so fucked in her head that she decides to forgo natural mothering habits and have her kids fight for fun isn't something that involves a deterrent it needs serious attention from a group of doctors to find out what makes am other do this thing

The father should have let it happen again then recorded it on camera and sold it to you tube and got money for it

Your trolling is quite unimpressive.

The father should have let it happen again then recorded it on camera and sold it to you tube and got money for it

then all five of them would be arrested and tossed in jail. he probably would've been tossed out of the army with a dishonorable discharge and their children taken away and given up for adoption.


yep... nice suggestion there.

Two toddlers hitting each other over a toy -- no big.
Grown adults encouraging it and filming it? Fucking diseased.

yes but prison is flimsily justified as a deterrent, a mother being so fucked in her head that she decides to forgo natural mothering habits and have her kids fight for fun isn't something that involves a deterrent it needs serious attention from a group of doctors to find out what makes am other do this thing

Prison doesn't deter but it does punish and a year inside a jail cell would be a good way to let these women know that their actions were unacceptable. Suspending the sentence just tells them that their actions weren't that big of a deal. Your line of thought seems to indicate that all of them are somehow mentally incompetent and shouldn't be punished anyway which is certainly something I don't agree with. I don't agree with the argument that mothers "nurture" anyway, it is society that determines behavior and there are plenty of examples, this being merely one, where the mother is anything but nurturing. This is simply an indication of human nature where you do what you want and to hell with anyone else.

If this happened in Urchistan we would have given the kids knives and let them battle it out. Whoever lossed would be thrown in a river, the winner - if survived afterwards - would be given 40 Urcks(our currency) and told to by some sweets.
But that is us and we are a rough peoples.

Kalastikhan Palakaneer The advisor of stuff
Urchistan

This isn't the RP forums. Shoo, shoo.

Hopefully the father will still get to see his kids. He shouldn't be punished because his wife's nutso. Poor taste in women is not grounds to never see your kids again (Unless of course you know she's doing stuff like that and don't do anything about it. But he reported it to social services)

Hopefully the father will still get to see his kids. He shouldn't be punished because his wife's nutso. Poor taste in women is not grounds to never see your kids again (Unless of course you know she's doing stuff like that and don't do anything about it. But he reported it to social services)

The story said the kids are in the care of the dad's parents, so he must still have access.

yes but prison is flimsily justified as a deterrent, a mother being so fucked in her head that she decides to forgo natural mothering habits and have her kids fight for fun isn't something that involves a deterrent it needs serious attention from a group of doctors to find out what makes am other do this thing

Or we can save a lot of money and spend a few bucks on a bullet. Some people can be counseled. Some can be disciplined. And some should be shot in the back and buried.

Yes! Lets bring back public flogging and the death penalty for good measure!

Huzzah!

and dont forget the Pillory and Stocks and plus the gibbet

they should really of got a custodial sentance

and dont forget the Pillory and Stocks and plus the gibbet

Exactly. A little corporal punishment goes a long way.

And just in case you guys aren't serious - I am.

To each his own.

Should have given them knives.

This is among the most terrible things I've seen inawhile. In a truly just world they'd be shot....or at least have their tubes tied (so to speak) so that they cannot harm another child.

If this happened in Urchistan we would have given the kids knives and let them battle it out. Whoever lossed would be thrown in a river, the winner - if survived afterwards - would be given 40 Urcks(our currency) and told to by some sweets.
But that is us and we are a rough peoples.

Kalastikhan Palakaneer The advisor of stuff
Urchistan

Annnnd the RP forums are Nationstates and International Incidents.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6574907.stm)

I'm literally speechless at this.

One line jumped out at me:

"Speaking after the case, investigating officer Det Sgt Barry Walters said: "Anyone watching this footage showing grown adults encouraging very young children committing unnatural acts would have been sickened and saddened..."

Children committing unnatural acts?

Because.. what? Children 'naturally' don't fight?

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6574907.stm)

I'm literally speechless at this.

They even give bitches a bad name. :mad:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/8345Reproduce-Posters.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/8345Reproduce-Posters.jpg

Well said.

One line jumped out at me:

"Speaking after the case, investigating officer Det Sgt Barry Walters said: "Anyone watching this footage showing grown adults encouraging very young children committing unnatural acts would have been sickened and saddened..."

Children committing unnatural acts?

Because.. what? Children 'naturally' don't fight?

Naturally, kids are going to fight for attention or dominance or over toys or whatever. Also, parents are naturally going to try to break up the fight. Once you have a parent and other relatives forcing them to fight, it goes from natural to unnatural. It goes from normal development to something that could mess a kid's mind up.

Plus, it's usually the other combatent that's verbally abusive, not the parent. It would be natural for the other kid to call names during the fight. It's not alright for someone who is supposed to be morally superior to be verbally abusive. Parents are supposed to teach their kids how to survive in the world, not how to pick fights. Afterall, the world is filled with the armed and the crazy. Pick a fight with the wrong guy and you'll end up with a bullet in the head. Better safe than sorry. Also better safe than just plain stupid.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6574907.stm)

I'm literally speechless at this.

Britain's supposed law enforcement is so fucked up these days.

Britain's supposed law enforcement is so fucked up these days.

I know...shocking, really. It's all the bloody paperwork. In my home town, there are 5 police officers (that's trained Constables, rather than PCSOs) covering the whole town and the surrounding area. The Officer I spoke to had 35 different cases on the go, including 2 suspected murders, plus she was on traffic duty, so she couldn't do any of the paperwork. Shocking, it truly is.

Bollocks. Bollocks to this country's judicial system, and Bollocks to our judges. They deserve to be in the dock themselves for failing this country and it's law-abiding majority. That offence should've been a 3-year minimum.

The judiciary?

If you're looking for blame, perhaps you should look to the politicians, who are telling the judges not to lock anyone up because they've run out of space?

The judiciary?

If you're looking for blame, perhaps you should look to the politicians, who are telling the judges not to lock anyone up because they've run out of space?

Hell, you don't even want to know what I've said about Tony Blair and company.

Hell, you don't even want to know what I've said about Tony Blair and company.

He'll be gone soon. :D

He'll be gone soon. :D

I know. And it'll be a nationwide knees-up when he does.

Or we can save a lot of money and spend a few bucks on a bullet. Some people can be counseled. Some can be disciplined. And some should be shot in the back and buried.

When are people going to figure out that shooting people is not going to help society?

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/8345Reproduce-Posters.jpg

Can I get this on like a shirt or something?

Damn, that Carole is a rough looking broad.

When are people going to figure out that shooting people is not going to help society?

I would point out that there are some hopeless cases that cannot be helped short of a full lobotomy and reconstruction.

Cheaper, and more effective, to remove them as the cancers they are.

Dang that is some chav-ass shit.

Bollocks. Bollocks to this country's judicial system, and Bollocks to our judges. They deserve to be in the dock themselves for failing this country and it's law-abiding majority. That offence should've been a 3-year minimum.We should do the old trail by fire.

Let us set them on fire and if they survive god agree they do not deserve to be punished further and if not bad luck for them.;)

Naturally, kids are going to fight for attention or dominance or over toys or whatever. Also, parents are naturally going to try to break up the fight. Once you have a parent and other relatives forcing them to fight, it goes from natural to unnatural. It goes from normal development to something that could mess a kid's mind up.

Plus, it's usually the other combatent that's verbally abusive, not the parent. It would be natural for the other kid to call names during the fight. It's not alright for someone who is supposed to be morally superior to be verbally abusive. Parents are supposed to teach their kids how to survive in the world, not how to pick fights. Afterall, the world is filled with the armed and the crazy. Pick a fight with the wrong guy and you'll end up with a bullet in the head. Better safe than sorry. Also better safe than just plain stupid.

I appreciate what you are saying - but re-read the quote: "Anyone watching this footage showing grown adults encouraging very young children committing unnatural acts would have been sickened and saddened..."

It isn't saying it is unnatural for the parents to encourage the violence - it is saying the parents WERE 'encouraging' unnatural acts. As far as the article says, the 'acts' they encouraged were kids fighting. Apparently - we are supposed to find this 'unnatural'.