NationStates Jolt Archive

Topic is as stated. Is suicide self-inflicted murder, therin your last act on earth being too commit blasphemy, forfeiting your stakes at eternal bliss? Too counter, as god forgives all, would a peaceful end at individual discretion be forgiven? Would their be time for repentance? Can your last act upon the earth go unrepented, and still will you be judged favorably in the eyes of god? Enough so too achieve the state of profound nirvana that is heaven?

Personally I have been torn, the "Self-Inflicted Murder theory" is mainly taught by the more traditional, conservative sects of Christianity, though the liberal denominations do not seem too have a firm stance? I have debated this many times rhetorically, and find myself in a state of profound confusion.

I don't believe in God, at least not any kind revealed on Earth, so I can't help you.

I don't pretend in the least to be an expert on Christianity, but as I understand once you accept him as your saviour, all your sins (past,present,future) are all automatically absolved, so even if you do commit suicide, you would be forgiven and get into heaven, correct?

I don't believe in God, at least not any kind revealed on Earth, so I can't help you.


Fair enough.


(Please forgive any spelling/grammar erros in my posts, its fairly late.)

I don't pretend in the least to be an expert on Christianity, but as I understand once you accept him as your saviour, all your sins (past,present,future) are all automatically absolved, so even if you do commit suicide, you would be forgiven and get into heaven, correct?

As far as I know, acceptance in Christ does not constitute your future acts of sin being absolved, if that was the case, what would be the point for chronic repentence? (As is instructed in catholic and tradtional christian doctrines)

Fair enough.

(Please forgive any spelling/grammar erros in my posts, its fairly late.)

Sorry, I accidentally posted that without adding on to it. I personally consider suicide to be a tragedy because it deprives that person of the freedom to reverse that decision. In my opinion, death in any form (even the ludicrous concept of "natural" death) is not good, although I can see situations where a person might be compelled to take their own life.

I hate death.

Topic is as stated. Is suicide self-inflicted murder, therin your last act on earth being too commit blasphemy, forfeiting your stakes at eternal bliss? Too counter, as god forgives all, would a peaceful end at individual discretion be forgiven? Would their be time for repentance? Can your last act upon the earth go unrepented, and still will you be judged favorably in the eyes of god? Enough so too achieve the state of profound nirvana that is heaven?

Jesus Christ himself committed suicide according to Christian doctrine. He after all opted to die, not to run away or have God intervene while being nailed on the cross.

However, I am personally of the opinion that a person has the right to decide what to do with his or her own life.And that definately includes ending it.

Couldn't this have gone in the other suicide thread?

Topic is as stated. Is suicide self-inflicted murder, therin your last act on earth being too commit blasphemy, forfeiting your stakes at eternal bliss? Too counter, as god forgives all, would a peaceful end at individual discretion be forgiven? Would their be time for repentance? Can your last act upon the earth go unrepented, and still will you be judged favorably in the eyes of god? Enough so too achieve the state of profound nirvana that is heaven?

Personally I have been torn, the "Self-Inflicted Murder theory" is mainly taught by the more traditional, conservative sects of Christianity, though the liberal denominations do not seem too have a firm stance? I have debated this many times rhetorically, and find myself in a state of profound confusion.ah, but God forgives those who are repentant and seek forgiveness. kinda hard to do once you've croaked.

as for self inflicted murder? I wanna sit in on that trial.
"Yes your honor, as you can see by the facial expression, he caught himself by surprise. the layout of the room suggest a violent struggle. He heartlessly murdered himself."

"ah, but look at this. the bag of valuables here. this shows that he was intent on robbing himself when he came home and caught himself in the act. since the death occured during the struggle, it's clear that it's not Self-Inflicted Murder 1 but actually Self-Inflicted Manslaughter."

If god was mercyful, he would understand people taking suicide to stop their pains.

I am a Christian and God is not a heartless bastard which is what many hard-nosed sects would have you believe. He is all knowing, all powerful and merciful. He would (and does) understand a desperate persons attempt to end their suffering (or whatever the reason) and would forgive in a heartbeat

Suicide is one of the more... extreme, I suppose you'd call it, means to an end the way I see it.

I see it as neither, though. As I don't believe in a higher power of any sort, nor a 'God', biblical or otherwise, I'd just say that suicide is just a psychological release from a mental overload. If you seriously cannot take any more, its hard to make you decide otherwise.

So I just look at it like having a computer shut itself down. A failsafe for when it crashes. Because we all know what happens when the brain crashes.

Sorry, I accidentally posted that without adding on to it. I personally consider suicide to be a tragedy because it deprives that person of the freedom to reverse that decision. In my opinion, death in any form (even the ludicrous concept of "natural" death) is not good, although I can see situations where a person might be compelled to take their own life.

I hate death.

I mean no offense here, but you obviously have alot too live for. Therefore your perception of death is guided upon your situation, current state. Empathy would prove too yield great enlightenment.

I am a Christian and God is not a heartless bastard which is what many hard-nosed sects would have you believe. He is all knowing, all powerful and merciful. He would (and does) understand a desperate persons attempt to end their suffering (or whatever the reason) and would forgive in a heartbeat

You are dead, there is not even a heartbeats time too admit sin and request forgiveness... Would you repent after death, in the spiritual state?

If god was mercyful, he would understand people taking suicide to stop their pains.

Mercy does not dictate automatic forgiveness.

Jesus Christ himself committed suicide according to Christian doctrine. He after all opted to die, not to run away or have God intervene while being nailed on the cross.

However, I am personally of the opinion that a person has the right to decide what to do with his or her own life.And that definately includes ending it.

Erm easy error, but there was a differnce between Christs scarifice and suicide. Knowingly going too his death, he did not directly kill himself. (Roman guards nailing him too cross, prodding him with spear.) This is differn't than pointing a gun too your head, in my opinion. (Self sacrifice vs suicide)

I mean no offense here, but you obviously have alot too live for. Therefore your perception of death is guided upon your situation, current state. Empathy would prove too yield great enlightenment.

Oh, I understand. But then again, it's the same for most people; none of us can truly understand what it is like for others, so to try and empathize with someone in a suicidal position is next to impossible. Empathy is only possible really when you've experienced the same thing.

Erm easy error, but there was a differnce between Christs scarifice and suicide. Knowingly going too his death, he did not directly kill himself. (Roman guards nailing him too cross, prodding him with spear.) This is differn't than pointing a gun too your head, in my opinion. (Self sacrifice vs suicide)

I disagree. Knowingly choosing certain death while being able to avoid it is suicide, regardless of the way the death will occur.
Sometimes we can admire people that make that choice - like the fireman entering the blazing building to save a child, knowing full well he himself will not survive. Or the soldier jumping on the grenade to protect others from the blast. Sometimes we consider the motives somewhat less admirable. But they are all suicides.

The question you should ask yourself is what kind of motive for suicide god might approve of.

Mercy does not dictate automatic forgiveness.

But if he existed in the first place, why would he let people suffer enough to take suicide?

Now I'm heading for school.

See, the thing is, we have free will. That means that everybody has free will, which means that we're not going to have a pain-free life because the human race is greedy and selfish and thoughtless as a rule. God says in the Bible that he will help us through the hardest times, that he gives us the strength to deal with other peoples choices. Some people (including myself in the past) are not able to release that pain into his hands, do not trust in him enough, do not have the faith needed to make it through the worst of life. Attempting suicide, whether you succeed or not, is obviously a cry for help in any situation. If you survive, you possibly will get the help through the hard times, but you'll always have the scars.

Suicide is a result of hopelessness, and one is never hopeless if one has true faith. It's really quite impossible to be a believer and be so dragged down by pessimism that all life loses all hope.

and just for clarification
Justice = getting exactly what you deserve, good and bad
Grace = not recieving a punishment you have earned / that you deserve
Mercy = recieving a benefit you have not earned / that you do not deserve

:)

http://www.engrish.com/image/engrish/terminating-machine.jpg

Yes, I've been dying to use that pic.

On topic: I don't know. But why would a benign deity inflict suffering on you if you resorted to suicide to end your own suffering? Wouldn't you have to be pretty malicious to do something like that? I mean.. I might be able to understand if we're talking about teen goths and the deity's just pointing and laughing, but beyond that, it just seems mean spirited.

Jesus Christ himself committed suicide according to Christian doctrine. He after all opted to die, not to run away or have God intervene while being nailed on the cross.

However, I am personally of the opinion that a person has the right to decide what to do with his or her own life.And that definately includes ending it.No he did not. According to Christian doctrine Jesus did not commit suicide. That's why he needed his trusted friend Judas to achieve what he wanted.

No he did not. According to Christian doctrine Jesus did not commit suicide. That's why he needed his trusted friend Judas to achieve what he wanted.Assisted suicide's still suicide though, init?

Assisted suicide's still suicide though, init?Jesus' death was no assisted suicide. It was an execution on behalf of the Jewish Temple Authority. And I am not sure what Judas' role in turning Jesus over really was, I mean after all Jesus wasn't unknown to those who came to arrest him. Anyways, Jesus wanted to die (or at least the bible tells thus), but not by the sin of suicide.

I have debated this many times rhetorically, and find myself in a state of profound confusion.

Just to confuse you more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallekhana
Sallekhana (also Santhara, Samadhi-marana, Samnyasa-marana) is a Jain practice of voluntary death through fasting when the end of life is very near due to unavoidable circumstances, such as illness or old age. It is the act of calmly withdrawing from worldly preoccupations and attachments by a combination of meditation and abstaining from food and water. In accepting to do sallekhana, the person must take a special vow to ensure that the body and the soul will leave the world in harmony and complete peace of mind, without fear. The purpose is to purge old karmas and prevent the creation of new ones.[1]

But see there's a stark difference between someone who sees no way out and committing suicide and Christ's death. (Albeit this is from a Christian perspective.) First of all the person committing suicide is not God, nor is the purpose of committing suicide usually the same one with the reasoning behind why God's Son had to die. Christ died so that those people who have lost hope may see the light, that even though we sin and die here on earth through faith we may achieve salvation. I find it very very hard to compare that to an actual suicide, especially since the aforementioned relation between that and self-sacrifice seems to be semantic. Sure he did not avoid his own death, he had to die. But of course he didn't nail himself up there and asphyxiate(sp).

Judas' role was that of fulfillment of the scriptures. There had to be one who would betray him to the authorities. Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin feared an uprising if they simply just arrested Jesus. Therefore it had to be an 'inside job' so to speak.

As to the issue of whether or not suicide is self-inflicted murder or just a way out, I would have to say that it is self-murder by definition really. And it's not really what God wants us to do in a dire situation, he'd like us to come to him so he can help us. It really is a shame to see people in that state of despair, (my graduating class has had two in the past year). But all that we can do is pray that they are repentant for their actions. None of us really knows whether or not God will damn them or if they had faith enough to be sorry for their sins. That as with many other things is up to God himself.

Jesus' death was no assisted suicide. It was an execution on behalf of the Jewish Temple Authority. And I am not sure what Judas' role in turning Jesus over really was, I mean after all Jesus wasn't unknown to those who came to arrest him. Anyways, Jesus wanted to die (or at least the bible tells thus), but not by the sin of suicide.OK. But is willfully walking into your own execution not suicide?

What about willingly jumping off a really tall building without a parachute, in the full knowledge impacting with the ground will kill you?

Or a real world example; what about people who bait coppers into blowing them away? - There's numerous examples of people who've intentionally tried (and sometimes succeeded) to get coppers to shoot them dead. Is that not a classic WWJD?

i don't really care if its a "sin", personally, but i am torn over the morality of the issue.

i don't really care if its a "sin", personally, but i am torn over the morality of the issue.I'm just torn over the practicalities. It's no secret a lot of people appreciate being suicidal failures, so given the finality of the act, I think we have an ethical obligation to go out of our way to dissuade people from trying to kill themselves.

But I think we have an equally strong ethical obligation not to stop or delay miserable people killing themselves. I mean, if life's so rotten you just want to be rid of it, it seems a bit cruel & unusual to stall people. Words like 'torture' springs to mind.

So how does a society cope in practice? If we just let people go to the hospital and get an injection (or whatever), we have every reason to believe that a lot of them would have lived to regret it. If we don't, we're just adding insult to injury for some.

I'm so glad I'm no psychiatrist.

I can't say whether or not they have commited a mortal sin. That's between them and God. But for general purpose, I'd never say "yeah, do it". Because I feel there will always be a better day, than that one. Whether it comes from pain killers, the person frame of mind or just coincidences in a day.

I cannot and will not say that someone who is suffering from an illness, usually untreatable, who is ready to leave this world.. that they shouldn't be allowed to do so. Is what I said a contradiction? I don't consider it so. But I'd understand if others thought it were. Whatever you do.. don't allow the government to have the say in these decisions. Oh, I'm sorry they already do.

and what the heck does " It depends on the merits and piety of the individual before the act.." Must be a Catholic thing. I hold no man to be higher in the godly sense than any other man. The Pope? He's just another man, and with a heck of alot more to confess to when the day comes. He's no better of a person than any of us walking around here now. He is a man.

I don't know what the Bible says about it, as I don't believe that the commandment about killing applies to this issue.

Personally, I believe that life is just another possession, and just as with other possessions, you can do whatever you want with it.

http://bcm.maz.org/archives/pancake%20bunny.jpg

The Pope? He's just another man, and with a heck of alot more to confess to when the day comes. He's no better of a person than any of us walking around here now. He is a man.

A man... With a very big hat. :D

A man... With a very big hat. :D


indeed.

If god was mercyful, he would understand people taking suicide to stop their pains.If God existed she'd be a lot of things.

If God existed she'd be a lot of things.

.........

and what the heck does " It depends on the merits and piety of the individual before the act.." Must be a Catholic thing. I hold no man to be higher in the godly sense than any other man. The Pope? He's just another man, and with a heck of alot more to confess to when the day comes. He's no better of a person than any of us walking around here now. He is a man.

Not so much catholic terminology, just fancy adjectives. Don;t bother with an anti-catholic sentiment, for I am no Catholic. My statement basically means it is based on how you behaved, and how devout you were in the process.