NationStates Jolt Archive

This is going to be a long incoherent rant because I am feeling angry/sad/ disturbed and so forth.

First off, I want to discuss "illegal" immigration in America. Its an issue that rings close to my heart. Here is part of what I wrote on another website:

"Since when is it illegal for a person to feed their family? And don't give me th BS about how there are legal ways. When your family is starving NOW, you don't have time to wait a year and pay thousands to get in. How can we be so cruel to other people. We keep talking about how we have it so good here, and we have it all. If thats the case, then why aren't we sharing it with others? It just goes to show our selfish ways. We want it all for ourselves..

oh and to people like Bill, who want to call me a liberal or whatever. Call me what you want, but rest assured that this is not a liberal rant. This is a Christian viewpoint, and rant on doing what is right. I think we have forgotten how to do the right thing.

We call ourselves a Christian nation, and a people under God. But what did Jesus say? Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and then to love your neighbor as yourself. Our neighbors are everyone else in the world. Not just our next door white american neighbor. Its our Asian neighbor, our Mexican neighbor, our African neighbor; The world is our neighborhood. We should not stop at the porches of our physical neighbors, but continue to spread the love among the entire neighborhood.

Remember one last thing. Jesus told us that if we were to be followers of Him that we'd sell our possessions, take up the cross, and follow after him, by Dying to ourselves daily. Why, if we are such a Good Christian people, are we not doing this?"

As you can see, it breaks my heart to see the fact that humans can have such hate towards each other. We (americans) are the wealthiest nation the earth has seen, yet we are so selfish and greedy (im not perfect in this mess either) that we can't even allow people to come and support their family. What is wrong with that? We can buy new PS3s, or hummers, but we can't allow Juan to come over and support his family of 7. I know that their are suffering Americans too. We should help them out too, but we should not stop with helping them out. What makes it worse is that this nation is run by phooney Christians. They talk much about morals, and how they love God. But how can they love God when they aren't taking care of, and loving his creation? How can they claim to be a Christian, but not take care of the weakest of the weak? How can they claim to be a Christian, but lack compassion and love for people? They make big deal about abortion, and gay marriage, but you never hear them talking against war, or death penalty, or poverty, or the lack of education for minorities, or anything beneficial to society. No, instead, they are pharisees! They were willing to pick up the stones to caste at various sinners, because of their self call to righteousness. Yet, Christ said he came not for the righteous, but he came to set the sinner free, that he/she may be healed, and live life for God.

I am the first to admit that I am not a perfect Christian nor person by any means. I sin. I admit it. I make a total fool out of my self most of the time. But I do know one thing, no matter how often I slip up, I know that God is there to pick me up. Not because I am a righteous holy man, or a special person, but because the same fire in my heart I have for people, and their sake, I have in my heart for God, but in such a larger quantity. I desire nothing more than to satisfy God and his Word. I wish that American Christians would start to feel this same fire as I do. I'm not saying they should follow my example. I am saying that the should follow the example of perfection, that I am trying to follow, and that is the life of Christ.


/end rant.

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH



:rolleyes:


All I heard was that.


I am so sick of people running off at the mouth about an issue they don't understand. How gives a flip about the christian way of doing things..we are not all christian you know!

And since when is it our job to feed the world? It's Mexico's job to take care of their people not our job. Go bitch at them.

:rolleyes:


All I heard was that.


I am so sick of people running off at the mouth about an issue they don't understand. How gives a flip about the christian way of doing things..we are not all christian you know!

And since when is it our job to feed the world? It's Mexico's job to take care of their people not our job. Go bitch at them.

Since when is it our job to do anything? If we are given the means, we should do with it what is right.

I'm not for building a fence or evicting all of the illegal immigrants, since my ancestors came illegally, although I think Mexico needs to fix its economy. I don't think there has ever been such a large influx of immigrants ever, or at least since the Irish potato famine.

Since when is it our job to do anything? If we are given the means, we should do with it what is right.



And feeding the world is right? Allowing people to flood in here is right? Not learning the language, mopping up our government resources, taking low level jobs where people like me can't even find work anymore....The government's job is to take care of it's own, not it's neighbours to. I don't take a bleeding heart look at anything.


Oh and btw, how is mexicans working for next to nothing per day with no health care or rights in sweatshop conditions the "christian" thing to do? Answer that Jesus!

I'm not for building a fence or evicting all of the illegal immigrants, since my ancestors came illegally, although I think Mexico needs to fix its economy. I don't think there has ever been such a large influx of immigrants ever, or at least since the Irish potato famine.


How can you come to a country illegally when there were no laws stating what is and isn't legal? :confused:

And feeding the world is right?
Um... yes? :confused:

Um... yes? :confused:


Not our job, go get mad at the government's of those countries and ask them why they mistreat their people.

Not our job, go get mad at the government's of those countries and ask them why they mistreat their people.
So everything that isn't in your job description is wrong. I understand now.

You're not.

I'm an atheist and I feel the same way you do.

It's a good point about how hard it is to immigrate legally. The bureacracy, the waiting periods, the huge cash sums are all designed not to make things "safe" for Americans (or immigrants), but to be a *barrier* to immigration.

The government, in fact, profits immensely from illegal immigration. I don't have the exact figures or sources (I posted them on another illegal immigration thread), but it works out that the US *government* gets more from immigration fees and border patrol seizures, than the entire *nation* (not just government!) of Mexico receives in remittances.

So while the anti-immigration crowd crows on about how illegal immigration is some huge scam by the Mexican government at the cost of poor United States, the opposite is true.

Lastly, "legality" is not equivalent to "morality." Just because something is illegal doesn't make it unethical. There are many, many stupid laws, of which violation would not only be reasonable, but morally good or morally neutral.

Me too. You people turn my fucking stomach.

Newsflash: we're so disproportionally wealthy that there isn't enough wealth left for the poorer nations and peoples to take care of themselves. In other words, you're not just a sick little parasite, you're fucking complaining about people having the nerve to complain you're living off them.

Yeh. You clueless sods definitely make me sick.




WOW! You have no idea what you are talking about...No clue at all. But at the same time you claim knowledge..Hmmmm... Oh well, have fun in your little Socialist Fantasy world where everything is america's fault and we should feed everybody in the world when we can't even feed our own people....Yeah, lets aid them and forget we can't take care of our own...That works!


And feel free to ignore corrupt nations treating their own people like crap. Clueless sod.

WOW! You have no idea what you are talking about...No clue at all. But at the same time you claim knowledge..Hmmmm... Oh well, have fun in your little Socialist Fantasy world where everything is america's fault and we should feed everybody in the world when we can't even feed our own people....Yeah, lets aid them and forget we can't take care of our own...That works!


And feel free to ignore corrupt nations treating their own people like crap. Clueless sod.
So if we spend millions of dollars building fences to keep illegal immigrants out and deporting them, everyone in America will suddenly have enough food to eat! It all makes sense!

Are illegal immigrants like some kind of life-draining beings that make crops die when they go near them?

So everything that isn't in your job description is wrong. I understand now.



Listen honey, It's not america's job to do another government's job. It's mexico's government's job to take care of their people, not ours. Go bitch at them for treating their people so bad they have to immigrate to make a living.

Allowing people to flood in here... taking low level jobs where people like me can't even find work anymore
I'm sure anyone would only be too happy to employ you in a low level job for pittance an hour if you asked.
Go on - offer yourself out at less than a Mexican gets, and steal that crappy job back off them!
If enough USians do that, the US won't need no steenkin' Mexicans

So if we spend millions of dollars building fences to keep illegal immigrants out and deporting them, everyone in America will suddenly have enough food to eat! It all makes sense!



:confused:



You don't get it do you? You can't take care of the 300 million people you have so you invite 40 million more over? That makes sense. Clean up your own mess before you clean up your neighbours.


I like your black and white view on life.

my beef with Illegal Immigration is the fact that it's illegal.

What does that have to do with anything?

:confused:



You don't get it do you? You can't take care of the 300 million people you have so you invite 40 million more over? That makes sense. Clean up your own mess before you clean up your neighbours.


I like your black and white view on life.
You need money to take care of your people.

Stopping illegal immigrants costs money.

Illegal immigrants help the economy.

A strong economy means you have more money.

:rolleyes:


All I heard was that.

Then you can't read. Please leave the thread and go do something that doesn't require knowledge of the English language, especially if the only contribution to discussion you have is pointless angry insults.

Or you know, you could stay, and call me a socialist. That'd be hilarious.

This is going to be a long incoherent rant because I am feeling angry/sad/ disturbed and so forth.

First off, I want to discuss "illegal" immigration in America. Its an issue that rings close to my heart. Here is part of what I wrote on another website:

As you can see, it breaks my heart to see the fact that humans can have such hate towards each other. We (americans) are the wealthiest nation the earth has seen, yet we are so selfish and greedy (im not perfect in this mess either) that we can't even allow people to come and support their family. What is wrong with that? We can buy new PS3s, or hummers, but we can't allow Juan to come over and support his family of 7. I know that their are suffering Americans too. We should help them out too, but we should not stop with helping them out. What makes it worse is that this nation is run by phooney Christians. They talk much about morals, and how they love God. But how can they love God when they aren't taking care of, and loving his creation? How can they claim to be a Christian, but not take care of the weakest of the weak? How can they claim to be a Christian, but lack compassion and love for people? They make big deal about abortion, and gay marriage, but you never hear them talking against war, or death penalty, or poverty, or the lack of education for minorities, or anything beneficial to society. No, instead, they are pharisees! They were willing to pick up the stones to caste at various sinners, because of their self call to righteousness. Yet, Christ said he came not for the righteous, but he came to set the sinner free, that he/she may be healed, and live life for God.

I am the first to admit that I am not a perfect Christian nor person by any means. I sin. I admit it. I make a total fool out of my self most of the time. But I do know one thing, no matter how often I slip up, I know that God is there to pick me up. Not because I am a righteous holy man, or a special person, but because the same fire in my heart I have for people, and their sake, I have in my heart for God, but in such a larger quantity. I desire nothing more than to satisfy God and his Word. I wish that American Christians would start to feel this same fire as I do. I'm not saying they should follow my example. I am saying that the should follow the example of perfection, that I am trying to follow, and that is the life of Christ.


/end rant.
my beef with Illegal Immigration is the fact that it's illegal. I have no problem with Juan coming over on a legal work program to provide for his family. I have no problem with Juanita applying for a visa/citizenship legally and making a life for herself or her family. but when they and others decide that the laws are too cumbersome and decide that the best way to deal with it is not to change them, but to break them... that's my beef.

and do you really want to intermix Religion with Government?

my beef with Illegal Immigration is the fact that it's illegal.

That's exactly my problem with jaywalking as well. I wish criminals would quit circumventing The Law in an immoral way. If people can't be trusted to cross only at designated crosswalks and intersections, what else might they do? RAPE OUR CHILDREN? I THINK YES!

but when they and others decide that the laws are too cumbersome and decide that the best way to deal with it is not to change them, but to break them... that's my beef.

So you would prefer that people trying to immigrate to the US, change US laws?

...

How?

You need money to take care of your people.

Stopping illegal immigrants costs money.

Illegal immigrants help the economy.

A strong economy means you have more money.



Hmmmm. Is that why they stand on the street begging for work and selling flowers? Is that why they live in crowded households working for less a day than white people like you do per hour? Is that why our poverty rate is so high? 12%.....Hmmmmmm......Is that why the cost of living is so high you can't live off of 90k a year in some places?


Illegal Immigration is a magic pill! It will solve all our problems! Let em all in and watch the poverty rate and homeless and high cost of living just vanish!!! YAY! What was I thinking!

Hmmmm. Is that why they stand on the street begging for work and selling flowers? Is that why they live in crowded households working for less a day than white people like you do per hour? Is that why our poverty rate is so high? 12%.....Hmmmmmm......Is that why the cost of living is so high you can't live off of 90k a year in some places?


Illegal Immigration is a magic pill! It will solve all our problems! Let em all in and watch the poverty rate and homeless and high cost of living just vanish!!! YAY! What was I thinking!
So the illegal immigrants are begging for work and living in squalid conditions.

But the government wastes too much money on helping them.

Ehm...

That's exactly my problem with jaywalking as well. I wish criminals would quit circumventing The Law in an immoral way. If people can't be trusted to cross only at designated crosswalks and intersections, what else might they do? RAPE OUR CHILDREN? I THINK YES!ah, but if the person is caught jaywalking, are they not punished?

and look what happens to those who do jaywalk. they stand a greater chance of being killed or crippled, can't go to work and feed your family if you're dead or stuck in a hospital racking up bills. so what's your point?

If you want criminals to quit circumventing the law, then support and uphold it. if that law needs to be changed, then work to change it.

So you would prefer that people trying to immigrate to the US, change US laws?why not. flood the Embassies with their requests. those with family and friends who are US citizens can start grass roots campains to either get the laws changed or even help pay the fees for immigrants to come over.

With the internet, people who want to come over can call for support and help.

there are so many things that can be done without actually breaking the law.

So the illegal immigrants are begging for work and living in squalid conditions.

But the government wastes too much money on helping them.

Ehm...



Maybe you should figure out why they live that way. Maybe it's creedy white people underpaying them and treating them like animals. Ever thought of that?

How is it humane for them to be living that way? And did you ever think that using tax payer dollars with no border patrol would just cause millions more to come in for a handout and drain our services that should be spent on other things like oh I don't know...maybe....hmm...education, health care and other service for it's own people who don't even have them! Do YOU KNOW how many citizen don't have health care? Or do you even care? Go to the inner city and skid row and tell the poor there to fuck off like you are here.

Maybe you should figure out why they live that way. Maybe it's creedy white people underpaying them and treating them like animals. Ever thought of that?

How is it humane for them to be living that way? And did you ever think that using tax payer dollars with no border patrol would just cause millions more to come in for a handout and drain our services that should be spent on other things like oh I don't know...maybe....hmm...education, health care and other service for it's own people who don't even have them! Do YOU KNOW how many citizen don't have health care? Or do you even care? Go to the inner city and skid row and tell the poor there to fuck off like you are here.
I honestly cannot understand how people can say "Stop the immigrant menace!" and "Think of the poor immigrants!" at the same time.

If they were receiving a significant amount of health care and/or education money, they wouldn't be living in such conditions, would they? :rolleyes:

ah, but if the person is caught jaywalking, are they not punished?

...no. Have you ever seen such a law enforced?

But what does being punished have to do with anything?

and look what happens to those who do jaywalk. they stand a greater chance of being killed or crippled, can't go to work and feed your family if you're dead or stuck in a hospital racking up bills. so what's your point?

Since when did jaywalking lead to increased chance of death or injury?

Show me one peer-reviewed study that supports this notion. Just one!

But even if it did, that is not a moral basis for making jaywalking illegal. Plenty of things that can increase risks are legal.

If you want criminals to quit circumventing the law, then support and uphold it. if that law needs to be changed, then work to change it.

I do what I can, which as a US citizen is very little.

If I were a Mexican citizen, it would be... let's see. Nothing.

why not. flood the Embassies with their requests.

I'm pretty sure they do. To no avail.

those with family and friends who are US citizens can start grass roots campains to either get the laws changed or even help pay the fees for immigrants to come over.

I'm sure they do. To no avail.

With the internet, people who want to come over can call for support and help.

there are so many things that can be done without actually breaking the law.

Not a single one of them addresses the very real problems - crime, families to feed, unemployment - faced by most illegal immigrants. If such people could AFFORD to wait around to make "grassroots" campaigns and wait for an inplacable foreign government to acquiesce, they wouldn't need to immigrate illegally in the first place.

services that should be spent on other things like oh I don't know...maybe....hmm...education, health care and other service for it's own people

Weren't you just trashing people for being "socialists" a second ago?

But now you advocate education and health care provided by the government.

How... versatile.










Commie.

I honestly cannot understand how people can say "Stop the immigrant menace!" and "Think of the poor immigrants!" at the same time.

If they were receiving a significant amount of health care and/or education money, they wouldn't be living in such conditions, would they? :rolleyes:



*sigh*

It's like talking to a brickwall.



Pay for the education and health care of 20 million illegals..the 20 million more...and 20 million more....and 20 million more...Hmmmm...Too bad mexico can't do that...why bother when we will waste our money doing it for them. Why not just annex Mexico, we take better care of their people than they do! Better yet, lets annex all poor countries since you seem to think we should pay their way to instead of trying to help them take care of their own! What about our own poor and homeless people? Do they not matter now or are you using illigeal immigration as a red herring?

This is going to be a long incoherent rant because I am feeling angry/sad/ disturbed and so forth.

First off, I want to discuss "illegal" immigration in America. Its an issue that rings close to my heart. Here is part of what I wrote on another website:

As you can see, it breaks my heart to see the fact that humans can have such hate towards each other. We (americans) are the wealthiest nation the earth has seen, yet we are so selfish and greedy (im not perfect in this mess either) that we can't even allow people to come and support their family. What is wrong with that? We can buy new PS3s, or hummers, but we can't allow Juan to come over and support his family of 7. I know that their are suffering Americans too. We should help them out too, but we should not stop with helping them out. What makes it worse is that this nation is run by phooney Christians. They talk much about morals, and how they love God. But how can they love God when they aren't taking care of, and loving his creation? How can they claim to be a Christian, but not take care of the weakest of the weak? How can they claim to be a Christian, but lack compassion and love for people? They make big deal about abortion, and gay marriage, but you never hear them talking against war, or death penalty, or poverty, or the lack of education for minorities, or anything beneficial to society. No, instead, they are pharisees! They were willing to pick up the stones to caste at various sinners, because of their self call to righteousness. Yet, Christ said he came not for the righteous, but he came to set the sinner free, that he/she may be healed, and live life for God.

I am the first to admit that I am not a perfect Christian nor person by any means. I sin. I admit it. I make a total fool out of my self most of the time. But I do know one thing, no matter how often I slip up, I know that God is there to pick me up. Not because I am a righteous holy man, or a special person, but because the same fire in my heart I have for people, and their sake, I have in my heart for God, but in such a larger quantity. I desire nothing more than to satisfy God and his Word. I wish that American Christians would start to feel this same fire as I do. I'm not saying they should follow my example. I am saying that the should follow the example of perfection, that I am trying to follow, and that is the life of Christ.


/end rant.

You're not the only one who feels this way. Artifical national borders simply keep people apart and create unnecessary conflicts. I would like to see Mexicans and others be able to come to America and help out if they can. I don't think anyone is "illegal"

You're not the only one who feels this way. Artifical national borders simply keep people apart and create unnecessary conflicts. I would like to see Mexicans and others be able to come to America and help out if they can. I don't think anyone is "illegal"


And what conflicts would this cause? Hmmm? Is mexico going to declare war on us because we have a border? And what about other countries? Hmmmm. What about their needs and the workers they need to survive? They are loosing skilled labor....Did you know that those people would have put more into mexico's economy if they stayed then they did after they left? Nah, mexico doesn't matter at all. Racism.

Oh and btw, how is mexicans working for next to nothing per day with no health care or rights in sweatshop conditions the "christian" thing to do? Answer that Jesus!

You must realize, if they were there legally and not afraid of being deported they could unionize and get decent work conditions.

How can you come to a country illegally when there were no laws stating what is and isn't legal? :confused:

Are you really suggesting the US has ever been lacking in immigration laws?

*sigh*

Pay for the education and health care of 20 million illegals..the 20 million more...and 20 million more....and 20 million more...Hmmmm...

What are you saying? You think the government actually provides education and healthcare to illegal immigrants... but doesn't make them pay tax? Illegal immigrants pay an enormous portion of their puny incomes in tax, and even if the government did provide them with welfare (highly unlikely), they would be the least likely people to use it! In fact, illegal immigrants only get deported once they start demanding welfare, so long as they keep their mouths shut and keep paying taxes, the government is happy to rob them blind.

I'm afraid your argument makes no sense because your country is exploiting illegal immigrants far more successfully than they are exploiting your country. Don't misunderstand me, illegal immigrants are not a morally or legally good thing, but to blame them for 'leeching' from welfare and ruining the country for the 'real Americans' sounds uncannily familiar to Hitler's pre-war anti-jewish propaganda...

...no. Have you ever seen such a law enforced?Yes.

But what does being punished have to do with anything?the point is, you break the law, get caught, you pay the penalty. anyone caught being in the USA illegally pays the penalty and is deported.

Since when did jaywalking lead to increased chance of death or injury?

Show me one peer-reviewed study that supports this notion. Just one!not the point. the point is that several states are cracking down on Jaywalking, and yes, JAYWALKING is a crime. thus punishable by fine. you want that changed, you can either start a campaign to change that or you can jaywalk all you want. wanna wage bets as to which one will change that law?

but then again, you can keep trying to change the subject with your less than weak metaphor.

But even if it did, that is not a moral basis for making jaywalking illegal. Plenty of things that can increase risks are legal.again with "moral", Between you and me, you're the only one saying moral.

I do what I can, which as a US citizen is very little. to you, maybe, but you gather others to your cause, and you will find a little does go a long way.

If I were a Mexican citizen, it would be... let's see. Nothing.and in your views, that leave it ok to break the law. :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure they do. To no avail."pretty sure" so you're not positive that they are doing this.

I'm sure they do. To no avail.please present the efforts of those working to assist others to legally enter and show how they are "to no avail."

Not a single one of them addresses the very real problems - crime, families to feed, unemployment - faced by most illegal immigrants. If such people could AFFORD to wait around to make "grassroots" campaigns and wait for an inplacable foreign government to acquiesce, they wouldn't need to immigrate illegally in the first place.oh yes it does. by changing the laws (something I've always supported) and cracking down on those entering illegally, you put the coyotes out of business. bye bye crime. the money owed to those coyotes would then be used to feed their families. and with visas, they can move openly without fear and thus find better employement that doesn't have them being paid way below minimum wage.

and if those people cannot wait for assistance, is that America's fault that their nation cannot insure their health and survival? Is it AMERICA's responsiblity to make sure eveyone in every country is well fed and paid? Are you suggesting that AMERICA has to dictate how other countries handle their economy? so far, all you've shown is that the root of the problem isn't the immigration system but the economics and government of the immigrant's home county.

something that AMERICA has no control over.

Listen honey, It's not america's job to do another government's job. It's mexico's government's job to take care of their people, not ours. Go bitch at them for treating their people so bad they have to immigrate to make a living.


Since when is it any government's job to take care of anybody? It is a person's job to take care of themselves. A government should only exist to the extent that it makes things safe and stable for all others to take care of themselves.

And earlier somebody had mentioned something about the 'Christian' thing to do. The Christian thing to do is NOT to force the government to feed somebody. People have some great idealism that the government is special or something magical. There is NO real difference in the following two scenarios, it's just we've learned to tolerate and rationalize one:

1) Citizen A holds a gun to Citizen B's head and tells him to give food to starving Citizen C

2) Government A threatens the use of force (e.g. incarceration) to make Citizen B give food to starving Citizen C

The Christian thing to do is to do your best to feed somebody who needs it. Not to force somebody else to give food to somebody who needs it.



So, back to illegal immigration. Why do millions of people come to the US? Because there is a demand for labor in the US that is not being met. Why are many Americans upset about it? Partially because the gov't provides disincentives to hiring Americans by making it cost more to hire an American. A way to partially fix the problem would be for the gov't to end the subsidization of illegal alien labor by making it cost the same to hire Americans as it does to hire illegals.

That leaves the problem of border security. Most illegal aliens, despite breaking the law to get in, are not intending to break the law in the US. The law they are breaking to enter the country is 'malum prohibitum' (bad b/c it is prohibited) rather than 'malum in se' (inherently bad). People ignore speed limits when the weather is perfect and there is no traffic. People ignore artificial things like borders since the natural inclination of a labor force is to move towards jobs. Most illegal aliens do not want to harm us. There needs to be some compromise in order to allow aliens in, to screen out those who are potential terrorists, and to summarily deport those who violate 'real' laws once they get here (thus helping to alleviate the problem that I've been hearing alot about recently; multiple-time illegal alien DUI and violent offenders). The only problem here is paying for actual screening and border security, border security being arguably a legitimate function of gov't (it does help to promote peace and stability, although imposing caps on the numbers of aliens and/or outright refusing their entry is coercive and thus not a legitimate function of gov't). So how do we pay for screening and documenting aliens and deporting those who break 'real' laws? I'm not sure if it would cover it all, but a good start would be not allowing them access to social services, thus freeing up a tremendous amount of gov't revenue (and also making happy those Americans who are against immigration b/c of the strain it puts on the legitimate taxpayer). Though I'm not naive enough to believe that a free-market utopia would ever come to fruition, we could at least force people to qualify for assistance by paying taxes for some amount of time can't we?

Illegal immigrants help the economy.

Except, they don't. Wasn't total tax cost of keeping them, like, $120 billion? It was in a report.

You must realize, if they were there legally and not afraid of being deported they could unionize and get decent work conditions.


If people like you would allow us to seal the border to prevent a mass influx and then start a guest worker program the government could provide them with that. They could sign up and be legal upon entry, we could monitor them to make sure they get good treatment and fair wages, learn english, obey the law. Where is the bad?



Are you really suggesting the US has ever been lacking in immigration laws?


I was talking about when the country was founded. How can europeans be illegal if there were no laws?

Except, they don't. Wasn't total tax cost of keeping them, like, $120 billion? It was in a report.



Wouldn't shock me. LA alone pays billions because of it.

Play nice or bans will be handed out.

The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

and look what happens to those who do jaywalk. they stand a greater chance of being killed or crippled, can't go to work and feed your family if you're dead or stuck in a hospital racking up bills. so what's your point?

Psst, jaywalkers are less likely to get run over, because they actually pay attention and are careful. They know what consequences they actions might have and act accordingly.

People who assume green light = safe are somewhat silly, in that they start walking when it's green and risk getting hit by that car running the red light.

UnHoly Smite, you are a perfect example of the selfish mindset that keeps our world in the sorry state it is.

Our World.

Read those two words again. Do you comprehend what they really mean? It is pure random chance as to where on this planet we are born. None of us has any choice in the matter. Have you ever considered what your life would be like if the fates had brought you into this world on the other side of that imaginary line that you like to make so much of? What if the house you grew up in didn't have running water, electricity or even a real floor?

So you lucked out in the birth lottery. Good for you. It's not your fault you drew the long straw is it? The plight of those who weren't so lucky isn't your problem. It isn't the problem even of the larger group of similar lucky SOB's you belong to.

Or is it?

After all it is Our World. All of our's world.

Why do you think a better, bigger share of it's wealth is your birthright? Are you that selfish that you would deny others even a chance at life even remotely as good as yours simply because it might bring the quality of your own cushy life down slightly?





Yeah, you probably are.

And the real sad part is you're not alone.

Except, they don't. Wasn't total tax cost of keeping them, like, $120 billion? It was in a report.

Well, if it was in a report, then I totally believe it!

:rolleyes:


All I heard was that.


I am so sick of people running off at the mouth about an issue they don't understand. How gives a flip about the christian way of doing things..we are not all christian you know!

And since when is it our job to feed the world? It's Mexico's job to take care of their people not our job. Go bitch at them.Perhaps, you should check your own knowledge of the issues. You know, actually do some research into why food prices are so high in Mexico. Just a suggestion.

No, you're not the only one. I agree - and I don't even nedd to base it on religion. ;)

No, you're not the only one. I agree - and I don't even nedd to base it on religion. ;)
Ditto. At the minute, it often seems like the entire of western society is designed to keep the seats of economic power exactly as they are now. That's disgusting, regardless of what religious organisations have to say about it.

:rolleyes:


All I heard was that.


I am so sick of people running off at the mouth about an issue they don't understand. How gives a flip about the christian way of doing things..we are not all christian you know!

And since when is it our job to feed the world? It's Mexico's job to take care of their people not our job. Go bitch at them.

I forgot to mention, I wrote this as an...um...attack, i suppose, against the Christian populace that embraces these ideas of separating us from the world. So many people claim to be Christian, but dang, you look at their fruits, and realize they are christian in name alone, which I feel is a big problem among the Christians this was referenced to.

Illegal is against the law, and no matter how you spin it, that's a bad thing. If we truly NEED the Mexicans for our economy, then we should let them over legally. Of course, if we did that, it would be harder to abuse them.

I forgot to mention, I wrote this as an...um...attack, i suppose, against the Christian populace that embraces these ideas of separating us from the world. So many people claim to be Christian, but dang, you look at their fruits, and realize they are christian in name alone, which I feel is a big problem among the Christians this was referenced to.

Agreed, there is nothing Christian about separation from the rest of the world. I would argue that our resources are finite and we can't support the entire country of Mexico, but I wouldn't claim that that's a Christian attitude.

:rolleyes:
And since when is it our job to feed the world? It's Mexico's job to take care of their people not our job. Go bitch at them.

Exactly. USA built themselves from the ground, first as a colony, and then in an independent way. I dont care if they used "ilegal" or "imoral" ways to become a power, but they did it alone.

Now, they dont own the world anything. If you build it, you are entitled to do anything you want with it. If you dont want to share, dont.

Dozens of generations have built what americans have now. And they think anyone can just come over and get everything for free just because USA has more than other people? That is bullshit.

BTW, I´m not american, but I value the idea that the people from one place have worked through generations to build what they have, and that imigrants get a share too good for themselves, specially if they are ilegal.

And Juan has 7 sons? Well, some of them should die, because there are too many people on this earth already.

Zilam, you are the only Christian that feels that way. Sorry, dude.
:rolleyes:

I had to think of a title. That seemed catchy enough:p

Zilam, you are the only Christian that feels that way. Sorry, dude.

And Juan has 7 sons? Well, some of them should die, because there are too many people on this earth already.Ah, but why leave it to Juan's sons? You know how unreliable these people are. Since you feel so strongly about this I'm sure you wouldn't mind starting right at home, would you? :)

Ah, but why leave it to Juan's sons? You know how unreliable these people are. Since you feel so strongly about this I'm sure you wouldn't mind starting right at home, would you? :)

The problem with that is the other people might say they're going to die sooner rather than later, but if he kills himself first how can he make sure they do? You know how unreliable these people are...

Ah, but why leave it to Juan's sons? You know how unreliable these people are. Since you feel so strongly about this I'm sure you wouldn't mind starting right at home, would you? :)

Yes, you´re quite right: Ill start it at home.

Meaning I will only have one or two kids.

The problem with that is the other people might say they're going to die sooner rather than later, but if he kills himself first how can he make sure they do? You know how unreliable these people are...That's true. :( But hey, it would be a start, right?

Yes, you´re quite right: Ill start it at home.

Meaning I will only have one or two kids.Ah, but that isn't what you suggested to Juan's sons. No half-hearted measures now, tsk tsk. Someone who talks so big surely has some follow-through, right?

Exactly. USA built themselves from the ground, first as a colony, and then in an independent way. I dont care if they used "ilegal" or "imoral" ways to become a power, but they did it alone.

Now, they dont own the world anything. If you build it, you are entitled to do anything you want with it. If you dont want to share, dont.

Dozens of generations have built what americans have now. And they think anyone can just come over and get everything for free just because USA has more than other people? That is bullshit.

BTW, I´m not american, but I value the idea that the people from one place have worked through generations to build what they have, and that imigrants get a share too good for themselves, specially if they are ilegal.

And Juan has 7 sons? Well, some of them should die, because there are too many people on this earth already.

Isn't the US independent in part thanks to France?

Oh my God, that can't true, the cowardly french, and you owe them your freedom!

Part of the american wealth is built over the misery of other countries, as the wealth of other right now wealthy countries. You took a lot from several countries, including Mexico, and now they maybe want to retrieve a bit of that.

Dozens of generations have abused of other countries. Perhaps we should stop buying american things, to see how you fare? Or perhaps stop selling you the things you buy from the rest of the world, at a clearly advatange prices?

And if you are worried about population, start disposing of yourself, and then you can start talking about disposing of everyone else, as someone else already said here.

Isn't the US independent in part thanks to France?

Oh my God, that can't true, the cowardly french, and you owe them your freedom!

Part of the american wealth is built over the misery of other countries, as the wealth of other right now wealthy countries. You took a lot from several countries, including Mexico, and now they maybe want to retrieve a bit of that.

Dozens of generations have abused of other countries. Perhaps we should stop buying american things, to see how you fare? Or perhaps stop selling you the things you buy from the rest of the world, at a clearly advatange prices?

And if you are worried about population, start disposing of yourself, and then you can start talking about disposing of everyone else, as someone else already said here.

He isn't from the US. Brazil, IIRC.

He's also rather unsurprisingly not willing to start with saving the world from overpopulation by offing himself. He'd rather leave that to Juan's sons.

*snip*

Whenever someone starts a thread with "incoherent rant," I take the advice in your sig. Except you changed it :(

Whenever someone starts a thread with "incoherent rant," I take the advice in your sig. Except you changed it :(

Hamilay's quote? Aww. I'll put it back eventually but for the moment I'm liking my current one too much to put something else in there. I'm also still in slight shell shock from having Ruffy's sig for about three days, so now my sig can't be small enough, really.

This is going to be a long incoherent rant because I am feeling angry/sad/ disturbed and so forth.

First off, I want to discuss "illegal" immigration in America. Its an issue that rings close to my heart. Here is part of what I wrote on another website:

As you can see, it breaks my heart to see the fact that humans can have such hate towards each other. We (americans) are the wealthiest nation the earth has seen, yet we are so selfish and greedy (im not perfect in this mess either) that we can't even allow people to come and support their family. What is wrong with that? We can buy new PS3s, or hummers, but we can't allow Juan to come over and support his family of 7. I know that their are suffering Americans too. We should help them out too, but we should not stop with helping them out. What makes it worse is that this nation is run by phooney Christians. They talk much about morals, and how they love God. But how can they love God when they aren't taking care of, and loving his creation? How can they claim to be a Christian, but not take care of the weakest of the weak? How can they claim to be a Christian, but lack compassion and love for people? They make big deal about abortion, and gay marriage, but you never hear them talking against war, or death penalty, or poverty, or the lack of education for minorities, or anything beneficial to society. No, instead, they are pharisees! They were willing to pick up the stones to caste at various sinners, because of their self call to righteousness. Yet, Christ said he came not for the righteous, but he came to set the sinner free, that he/she may be healed, and live life for God.

I am the first to admit that I am not a perfect Christian nor person by any means. I sin. I admit it. I make a total fool out of my self most of the time. But I do know one thing, no matter how often I slip up, I know that God is there to pick me up. Not because I am a righteous holy man, or a special person, but because the same fire in my heart I have for people, and their sake, I have in my heart for God, but in such a larger quantity. I desire nothing more than to satisfy God and his Word. I wish that American Christians would start to feel this same fire as I do. I'm not saying they should follow my example. I am saying that the should follow the example of perfection, that I am trying to follow, and that is the life of Christ.


/end rant.

As a proud atheist, I completely agree with you.

Isn't the US independent in part thanks to France?

Oh my God, that can't true, the cowardly french, and you owe them your freedom!

Part of the american wealth is built over the misery of other countries, as the wealth of other right now wealthy countries. You took a lot from several countries, including Mexico, and now they maybe want to retrieve a bit of that.

Dozens of generations have abused of other countries. Perhaps we should stop buying american things, to see how you fare? Or perhaps stop selling you the things you buy from the rest of the world, at a clearly advatange prices?

And if you are worried about population, start disposing of yourself, and then you can start talking about disposing of everyone else, as someone else already said here.

Sorry dude, but whenever someone wins, another loses. No matter where you live, unless you live in the single most poor country in the world, some of your wealth was built upon someone´s else sufering.

That is how it is, how it was, and how it will always be.

And you can be damn sure I would kill Juan, his wife, all his kids, all his grandsons, his entire family before I killed myself or any of my family members.

"OH, you´re being ilogic!?" Wrong, I´m being sane.

Hamilay's quote? Aww. I'll put it back eventually but for the moment I'm liking my current one too much to put something else in there. I'm also still in slight shell shock from having Ruffy's sig for about three days, so now my sig can't be small enough, really.

Yeah, I'm with you there. Mine was even "nope. nothing here :grin:" for a while, but I don't think anyone noticed.

religious 'justification' aside i feel the same way. humans are social animals, we don't need religion to give us compassion, it is something that we have evolved to feel. peple who lack copassion lack an important aspect of what makes them human.

following this logic to it's conclusion for a laugh: anti-immigration types lack compassion, anti-immigration types are sub-human, anti-immigration types are no-longer eligible for basic human rights, anti-immigration typescan get te fuck.

Sorry dude, but whenever someone wins, another loses. No matter where you live, unless you live in the single most poor country in the world, some of your wealth was built upon someone´s else sufering.

That is how it is, how it was, and how it will always be.

And you can be damn sure I would kill Juan, his wife, all his kids, all his grandsons, his entire family before I killed myself or any of my family members.

"OH, you´re being ilogic!?" Wrong, I´m being sane.

Alright, "dude"

Then do not blame others for trying to regain what you have taken, and what you still take from them and their countries. They are playing the game of survival too.

Yes, I am sure you would kill them, but I am pretty sure "Juan" would also try to kill you, your family and any of your acquietances before killing his family, so that places you two in the same predicament, don't you think?

I hope Juan gets you first, of course, but that is another matter.

Sorry dude, but whenever someone wins, another loses. No matter where you live, unless you live in the single most poor country in the world, some of your wealth was built upon someone´s else sufering.

That is how it is, how it was, and how it will always be.

And you can be damn sure I would kill Juan, his wife, all his kids, all his grandsons, his entire family before I killed myself or any of my family members.

"OH, you´re being ilogic!?" Wrong, I´m being sane.That has to be the sickest definition of sanity ever.

Then do not blame others for trying to regain what you have taken, and what you still take from them and their countries. They are playing the game of survival too.Don't be so reasonable now.

I hope Juan gets you first, of course, but that is another matter.:p

That has to be the sickest definition of sanity ever.

Yeah. It's the sickest in use by a person. To get sicker, you have to go into manga villains.

Yeah. It's the sickest in use by a person. To get sicker, you have to go into manga villains.

Good one. Although Pol Pot had a throne made of human skulls and bones. That placed him as a manga villain in my mind.

Good one. Although Pol Pot had a throne made of human skulls and bones. That placed him as a manga villain in my mind.

(is struck by inspiration)

If I ever find myself needing a manga villain, I'll give him that.

Alright, "dude"

Then do not blame others for trying to regain what you have taken, and what you still take from them and their countries. They are playing the game of survival too.

Yes, I am sure you would kill them, but I am pretty sure "Juan" would also try to kill you, your family and any of your acquietances before killing his family, so that places you two in the same predicament, don't you think?

I hope Juan gets you first, of course, but that is another matter.

Exacly. Everyone is playing the game, and there are winers and losers (or winners and loosers anyway).

Which doesnt mean the ones in the top shouldnt work to remain in the top, and let everyone else bellow.

And you´re completely sure about Juan, I´m 100% sure he would try to kill me before killing his own family. And I respect that. If he didnt try to protect his family, then he would be the one wrong.

And who gets who first, its all about who is the most powerfull, and I guess mexicans arent that much.

That has to be the sickest definition of sanity ever.


Sick, but true.

Sick, but true.

if you lack compassion

Exacly. Everyone is playing the game, and there are winers and losers (or winners and loosers anyway).

Which doesnt mean the ones in the top shouldnt work to remain in the top, and let everyone else bellow.

And you´re completely sure about Juan, I´m 100% sure he would try to kill me before killing his own family. And I respect that. If he didnt try to protect his family, then he would be the one wrong.

And who gets who first, its all about who is the most powerfull, and I guess mexicans arent that much.

Your sons will be speaking spanish in no time. Spanish is already spoken more than english worldwide, according to the american sources. Power is not only measured in means of physical or military power. Your false confidence in that department will prove to be your doom.

We non-americans aren't "inferiors", as you some day will realize.

Sorry dude, but whenever someone wins, another loses. No matter where you live, unless you live in the single most poor country in the world, some of your wealth was built upon someone´s else sufering.Pardon? That doesn't make any sense with regards to your previous statement where you said America had built itself up alone. If America was to have built itself up them it must have destroyed someone/something else in process.

Which is what has happened here. In America's quest for complete security it destroyed the Mexican agricultural industry. To such an extent that Mexico (the poorer country with lower wages - meaning cheaper agricultural production costs) now imports 25% of its corn needs from the USA (a country where wages are roughly 100 times higher than they are in Mexico). Neoliberal market reforms fucked over Mexico big time, whilst at the same time have opened up another market for American corn.

Sick, but true.Only if you think economies based in exploitation (all the typical bastardisations of capitalism, for example) cannot be abandoned.

I see no evidence to suggest it's true, or even the tiniest bit desirable. Ancap could replace it without too many problems, and abandoning capitalism/capitalism-based economic systems altogether seems even less problematic.

Participatory economics, for example, would effectively end your days as a parasite. Such behaviour would be impossible to pull off, because those types of transactions don't generate wealth for the individual.

Mostly this is a problem of institutionalised indoctrination that X bastardisation of capitalism and system of (pseudo-) representative democracy, are the only methods of socio-economic organisation that 'works'. Sure, whatever passes for the upper class will strive to maintain those systems as well, but without popular consent, they're as impotent as a week old roadkill.

There is no evidence to suggest that different forms of socio-economic organisation won't work, and work better. Claims to the contrary are based in pure fiction, as we've never tried. There is no evidence to suggest our various takes of capitalism and representative democracy 'work' either. The only evidence there is, is that we're wholly incapable of controlling the market, the market's wholly incapable of controlling itself, and that the combination is devastating our resources and the primary reason for the extreme poverty on this planet (which outright kills millions of people each year).

So no. There's nothing sane about your attitude. It's psychopathic and lacks any foundation in reality. But you're quite right that it's true right now.

It's just not possible to allow every single person to come to the USA because they have a bad life where they are now without making the person go through some kind of process like those in place now. If we simply allow anyone to come without any restriction or anything like that it would be too easy for terrorists and other bad people to get into the country.

Terrorists got into the country through the processes we already have, if loosen that it will be even easier for them to get into the country.

I support immigration 100% but i do believe we have to do it in ways that helps as many people as possible to realize their dream of living here WHILE keeping the country as safe as possible.

Psst, jaywalkers are less likely to get run over, because they actually pay attention and are careful. They know what consequences they actions might have and act accordingly.

People who assume green light = safe are somewhat silly, in that they start walking when it's green and risk getting hit by that car running the red light.

Psst. two things...

1) back it up with statistics that prove this.

2) not the point.

Whenever someone starts a thread with "incoherent rant," I take the advice in your sig. Except you changed it :(

Hamilay's quote? Aww. I'll put it back eventually but for the moment I'm liking my current one too much to put something else in there. I'm also still in slight shell shock from having Ruffy's sig for about three days, so now my sig can't be small enough, really.
My day has been made. Thank you. :)

No I do not have a sad and unfulfilling life, really.

Illegal is against the law, and no matter how you spin it, that's a bad thing.

It's disgusting how many people here think like that.

Law = Good. Always!

So like, the Nuremberg Laws were good. Doesn't matter that they were racist and oppressive tools of the nazi regime... they were the law and anyone who breaks the law is being Bad.

And people say the nazi's couldn't possibly ever rise to power again, especially not in America. Oh no, we've gotten over that kind of mindless obedience to authority...

It's disgusting how many people here think like that.While I share your horror & disgust, I don't see why it's surprising to you. I mean, I'd get it if you just landed on this rock, but you'e been around for a while now.

Sorry dude, but whenever someone wins, another loses. No matter where you live, unless you live in the single most poor country in the world, some of your wealth was built upon someone´s else sufering.

That is how it is, how it was, and how it will always be.

And you can be damn sure I would kill Juan, his wife, all his kids, all his grandsons, his entire family before I killed myself or any of my family members.

"OH, you´re being ilogic!?" Wrong, I´m being sane.

No. Reality does not always work that way. When I teach my neighbour how to fix her bicycle, she gains but I do not lose. When I visit my friends in the country, I stay at their house. I gain shelter for the evening. What does she lose? Nothing. When an animal pisses in the forest, it gains by ridding itself of waste. The surrounding plant life also gains by acquiring nutrients.

According to you, there should be a loser in all these situations. There is not.

Consequently, saying "That is how it is, how it was, and how it will always be," is a gross generalisation that does not reflect reality.

Is it not possible that by helping Juan, we help ourselves? Not everything fits into a profit/loss paradigm.

This is going to be a long incoherent rant because I am feeling angry/sad/ disturbed and so forth.

First off, I want to discuss "illegal" immigration in America. Its an issue that rings close to my heart. Here is part of what I wrote on another website:

Maybe it's me, but I found your OP to be less than clear...

Regardless, here's my view:
We want and need immigration, but it is important that it is regulated. Opening the borders completely will cost the society a lot. So what we need is an efficient bureaucracy and a not too stringent regime of rules governing imigration. In short, it has to be a humane set of rules and follow humane policy - but we have to accept reasonable restrictions.

And those who violate the immigration laws should be deported :)
He'd rather leave that to Juan's sons.
*Expells Juan*

Oopsie! ;)

This is going to be a long incoherent rant because I am feeling angry/sad/ disturbed and so forth.

First off, I want to discuss "illegal" immigration in America. Its an issue that rings close to my heart. Here is part of what I wrote on another website:

As you can see, it breaks my heart to see the fact that humans can have such hate towards each other. We (americans) are the wealthiest nation the earth has seen, yet we are so selfish and greedy (im not perfect in this mess either) that we can't even allow people to come and support their family. What is wrong with that? We can buy new PS3s, or hummers, but we can't allow Juan to come over and support his family of 7....

So Zilam, I want to know when you plan to ignore your property lines and eliminate the locks on your doors--just in case I need a place to stay for a few years.

Does the phrase "you are an idiot" ring a bell?

No. Reality does not always work that way. When I teach my neighbour how to fix her bicycle, she gains but I do not lose. When I visit my friends in the country, I stay at their house. I gain shelter for the evening. What does she lose? Nothing. When an animal pisses in the forest, it gains by ridding itself of waste. The surrounding plant life also gains by acquiring nutrients.

According to you, there should be a loser in all these situations. There is not.

Consequently, saying "That is how it is, how it was, and how it will always be," is a gross generalisation that does not reflect reality.

Is it not possible that by helping Juan, we help ourselves? Not everything fits into a profit/loss paradigm.In the former two cases the capitalist system as espoused by NB would assume someone had lost out because a service had given, but not paid for. So essentially the service giver would have been deemed to have lost out... even if they did so of their own free will.

This is why it is bad to base the entirety of your outlook on life on economic theory. Indeed, it has been said that the only people who act the way as described in economic theory are economists.

It's disgusting how many people here think like that.

Law = Good. Always!

So like, the Nuremberg Laws were good. Doesn't matter that they were racist and oppressive tools of the nazi regime... they were the law and anyone who breaks the law is being Bad.

And people say the nazi's couldn't possibly ever rise to power again, especially not in America. Oh no, we've gotten over that kind of mindless obedience to authority...

More lunacy I see.

No, not all laws are good. But laws that define who gets to come to this country and who does not is a good thing which is why most countries of this world actually enforce their immigration laws. So do you support letting the entire population of say Bangladesh enter the US?

So Zilam, I want to know when you plan to ignore your property lines and eliminate the locks on your doors--just in case I need a place to stay for a few years.

So Qin Wang, I want to know when you're going to learn the difference between PRIVATE and PUBLIC. You know - just in case you need to make a rational argument in a few years.

It's not much of a surprise, sadly.

It wouldn't be much of a surprise if they started throwing people into concentration camps either. But it still disgusts.
Already done here in Australia. :headbang:

So Qin Wang, I want to know when you're going to learn the difference between PRIVATE and PUBLIC. You know - just in case you need to make a rational argument in a few years.

So since when is the entire nation public and since when it is rational to allow the entire world inside this country with no restrictions? And please name my a country that has such insane immigration policies in place.

Oh and care to name a country that accepts more LEGAL immigrants than the United States?

While I share your horror & disgust, I don't see why it's surprising to you. I mean, I'd get it if you just landed on this rock, but you'e been around for a while now.

It's not much of a surprise, sadly.

It wouldn't be much of a surprise if they started throwing people into concentration camps either. But it still disgusts.

It's not much of a surprise, sadly.

It wouldn't be much of a surprise if they started throwing people into concentration camps either. But it still disgusts.

So does it also disgust you that the other 200 or so countires in the world also enforce their immigration laws? Want to try a test and try to live and work in Japan with out the proper visas and work permits. I guess they are going to start throwing people into concentration camps as well, huh?

What are you saying? You think the government actually provides education and healthcare to illegal immigrants... but doesn't make them pay tax? Illegal immigrants pay an enormous portion of their puny incomes in tax, and even if the government did provide them with welfare (highly unlikely), they would be the least likely people to use it! In fact, illegal immigrants only get deported once they start demanding welfare, so long as they keep their mouths shut and keep paying taxes, the government is happy to rob them blind.

I'm afraid your argument makes no sense because your country is exploiting illegal immigrants far more successfully than they are exploiting your country. Don't misunderstand me, illegal immigrants are not a morally or legally good thing, but to blame them for 'leeching' from welfare and ruining the country for the 'real Americans' sounds uncannily familiar to Hitler's pre-war anti-jewish propaganda...

27% of the US Federal prison population is foreign born and if you took into account state and local prisons and jails, no doubt the percent would be even higher. US hospitals must care to medical needs of illegals no matter if they can pay or not and school systems must educate their children no matter their legal status as some states offer in-state rates to illegals while their LEGAL US citizen peers and legal F-1 visa studetns from abroad must pay the out of state rates.

SOME illegals do pay income taxes, but many do not. And I will not even get into the costs associated with quality of life issues.

I'm not for building a fence or evicting all of the illegal immigrants, since my ancestors came illegally, although I think Mexico needs to fix its economy. I don't think there has ever been such a large influx of immigrants ever, or at least since the Irish potato famine.

Please expand on how your ancestors came here illegally.

So since when is the entire nation public and since when it is rational to allow the entire world inside this country with no restrictions?

The nation is public. Your house is private. You own your house. You don't own the nation.

This isn't that difficult to grasp.

And please name my a country that has such insane immigration policies in place.

Oh and care to name a country that accepts more LEGAL immigrants than the United States?

Insane immigration policies? OK. Mexico.

As for more legal immigrants... hmm. Canada has a higher per capita rate, higher than any other nation.

What does either of these have to do with anything?

But laws that define who gets to come to this country and who does not is a good thing which is why most countries of this world actually enforce their immigration laws. So do you support letting the entire population of say Bangladesh enter the US?

Laws, on the other hand, that serve as nothing but an incouragement to illegal immigration through bureacratic red-tape and greedy governmental revenue-mongering, while pandering to a constituent of hostile, xenophobic and ignorant voters who think "they're takin' our jobs1!11!" are worthy of nothing but my disrespect, disdain and I highly incourage breaking them.

As for Bangladesh, I guess I'll worry about that when I perceive Bangladesh (or any other) migrants as being some sort of inherent threat.

So does it also disgust you that the other 200 or so countires in the world also enforce their immigration laws?

If you would, you know, READ what I wrote, you'd understand that what disgusts me is the belief that law = ethics.

Want to try a test and try to live and work in Japan with out the proper visas and work permits. I guess they are going to start throwing people into concentration camps as well, huh?

I'm looking forward to the day you actually read what people write here. But that day is clearly not this day...

More lunacy I see.

No, not all laws are good. But laws that define who gets to come to this country and who does not is a good thing which is why most countries of this world actually enforce their immigration laws. So do you support letting the entire population of say Bangladesh enter the US?Bad argument. There are various levels of poverty within Countries themselves, but you do not see whole segments of the population of Mississippi moving to Connecticut merely because they can earn almost twice as much if they moved. And oh look, the whole of Western Europe hasn't suddenly collapsed because the hordes of Eastern Europe can now freely migrate to work in the West.

Besides the majority of immigration rules basically amount to 'the rich are very very welcome here, but you poor people can fuck back to where you came from'.

And if immigrations laws weren't in place a more natural equilibrium of the world economy would have been reached, and the poverty and human rights abuses caused by immigration laws would not exist. Companies wouldn't be able to charge subsistence level wages because workers could just migrate to where wages were higher and hence force wages to be fairer in the developing country. The same for human rights abuses - if a government treated its citizens unfairly then they could migrate and undermine the strength of the government eventually leading to its collapse. The reason why capitalism creates so much poverty is that enables freedom of movement of capital and those who own such capital, but keeps workers entrenched and unable to go where the conditions for work are best. The capitalist system as it stands now is a major distortion of the market.

That's exactly my problem with jaywalking as well. I wish criminals would quit circumventing The Law in an immoral way. If people can't be trusted to cross only at designated crosswalks and intersections, what else might they do? RAPE OUR CHILDREN? I THINK YES!



So you would prefer that people trying to immigrate to the US, change US laws?

...

How?

Well if the Jaywalkers were almost a 1/3 of the US prison population, were directly related to school overcrowding, increased crime, drain of the medical system, among others impacts then you would have a point comparing jaywalking to illegal entry into the US.

Bad argument. There are various levels of poverty within Countries themselves, but you do not see whole segments of the population of Mississippi moving to Connecticut merely because they can earn almost twice as much if they moved. And oh look, the whole of Western Europe hasn't suddenly collapsed because the hordes of Eastern Europe can now freely migrate to work in the West.

But I don't think, you have 40% of Mississippians saying they would move to New York either unlike the poll conducted in Mexico. If you don't think dropping the limited border control we have now wouldn't cause a drastic increase in the numbers coming from Mexico (and beyond) you are insane.

Well if the Jaywalkers were almost a 1/3 of the US prison population, were directly related to school overcrowding, increased crime, drain of the medical system, among others impacts then you would have a point comparing jaywalking to illegal entry into the US.

I guess if it was also called "illegal immigration," then I could safely make the comparison because it would be exactly the same?

No. I am making the comparison because they are both crimes. Period. End of sentence. I know you don't like that because you seem to possess a frothing hatred of one crime and shrug dismissively toward the other, but it's a valid comparison.

Try again.

I guess if it was also called "illegal immigration," then I could safely make the comparison because it would be exactly the same?

No. I am making the comparison because they are both crimes. Period. End of sentence. I know you don't like that because you seem to possess a frothing hatred of one crime and shrug dismissively toward the other, but it's a valid comparison.

Try again.

It is only valid among idiots like you who support open borders. In most countries, illegal entry is a felony. In Mexico--it will earn you a two year sentence in prison. In The DPRK it will earn you death--either by being shot as you tried to cross the border, being executed or being sent to a labor camp after you were captured. In the US, if you have entered the US illegally and have been ordered to leave and then return again and are caught--that is a felony as well. If I jaywalk twice, it will not be a felony.

Perhaps, you should check your own knowledge of the issues. You know, actually do some research into why food prices are so high in Mexico. Just a suggestion.



Food prices in mexico are not my problem, food prices in america are. Stop trying to distract from the issue. Mexico has issues they need to deal with and illegal immigration makes it worse.


FYI, they lose skilled workers and those peoples consumption.

Please expand on how your ancestors came here illegally.That the vast majority of land that constitutes the USA was taken by force from those already living there?

It is only valid among idiots like you who support open borders.

More ad hom flaming. You'll go far with that attitude, because thinking I am an idiot is not only a great debating tactic, but almost certain to convince me that my arguments are wrong.

In most countries, illegal entry is a felony. In Mexico--it will earn you a two year sentence in prison. In The DPRK it will earn you death--either by being shot as you tried to cross the border, being executed or being sent to a labor camp after you were captured.

...and you are admiring of these policies, is that what you're trying to say?

You wish the US was more like Mexico and North Korea?

In the US, if you have entered the US illegally and have been ordered to leave and then return again and are caught--that is a felony as well. If I jaywalk twice, it will not be a felony.

Big deal. They are both ILLEGAL. Isn't that what you and the other anti-immigration folks keep cawing? "But it's ILLEGAL and doing something ILLEGAL is wrong! It's wrong because it's ILLEGAL and it's ILLEGAL because it's wrong!" Yes, yes it is.

But no. You have no problem with jaywalking. Because in the end, you don't care about "law," that's just a red herring used to justify xenophobia.

The nation is public. Your house is private. You own your house. You don't own the nation.

This isn't that difficult to grasp.

It is not "public" for those from other countries. People who cross the border without inspection have no right--legal or moral--to do so. And in most countries they make sure that such activities are kept to a minimum.

Insane immigration policies? OK. Mexico.



As for more legal immigrants... hmm. Canada has a higher per capita rate, higher than any other nation.

Not in total numbers though and Canada also has a population barely larger than Taiwan's (33 million to 23 million). Canada is barely 10% of the US population in a country that has the second largest land size in the world. It can afford to take in large number of immigrants (per capita basis). Look at the amount of immigration in the US from say 1840-1920.

We don't really need mindless people to sit in a textile mill or dig in a coal mine. We need people with advanced degrees for a post-industrial society. Semi-literate (in Spanish) peasants from Oaxaca don't fall into this category.

Sure--agribusiness and the construction trade loves the wage savings they get to increase their profits, but the country wouldn't collapse without them.




Laws, on the other hand, that serve as nothing but an incouragement to illegal immigration through bureacratic red-tape and greedy governmental revenue-mongering, while pandering to a constituent of hostile, xenophobic and ignorant voters who think "they're takin' our jobs1!11!" are worthy of nothing but my disrespect, disdain and I highly incourage breaking them.

Again. The US doesn't need large amounts of semi-literate peasants like we did in the 1880s. And that is exactly why we have immigration law.

If your mindless self wants to paint people that actually want immigration laws enforced as xenophobic and ignorant that is your right. After all there is no cure for stupid.

As for Bangladesh, I guess I'll worry about that when I perceive Bangladesh (or any other) migrants as being some sort of inherent threat.

Yes that is the usual response of people like you. We'll worry about the effects of our stupid policies after the fact.

Does the phrase "you are an idiot" ring a bell?
It is only valid among idiots like you who support open borders.
If your mindless self wants to paint people that actually want immigration laws enforced as xenophobic and ignorant that is your right. After all there is no cure for stupid.
We have a cure for flaming. We call it the Forumban.

If you want to continue this argument, or to continue to participate in these forums, you'll drop the personal invective NOW.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

More ad hom flaming. You'll go far with that attitude, because thinking I am an idiot is not only a great debating tactic, but almost certain to convince me that my arguments are wrong.



...and you are admiring of these policies, is that what you're trying to say?

You wish the US was more like Mexico and North Korea?


On the immigration issue, I wish the US was more like Taiwan actually. And it is clear your mind is made up, so there is no need to try to bring you to my side. Sorry, I have no desire to teach pigs how to sing.


Big deal. They are both ILLEGAL. Isn't that what you and the other anti-immigration folks keep cawing? "But it's ILLEGAL and doing something ILLEGAL is wrong! It's wrong because it's ILLEGAL and it's ILLEGAL because it's wrong!" Yes, yes it is.

I am not against immigration. I am against illegal entry--these are not the same, but pro-open border adocates like to call illegal entry immigration and illegal aliens immigrants, but they are not the same thing.

But no. You have no problem with jaywalking. Because in the end, you don't care about "law," that's just a red herring used to justify xenophobia.

So since you speed no doubt does that mean they shouldn't enforce laws against rape--they are both illegal are they not?

And since the term Xenophobic comes from the Greek terms of Xenos menaing stranger and Phobeo meaning fear, so if I have a fear of the foreign then I must be the most unique xenophobe the planet has ever seen since as far as I know xenophobes never learn languages other than their own or adopt customs and faiths other than their own, live abroad, etc.

We have a cure for flaming. We call it the Forumban.

If you want to continue this argument, or to continue to participate in these forums, you'll drop the personal invective NOW.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Game Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe, maybe not.

Not a good move.

Since when is it our job to do anything? If we are given the means, we should do with it what is right.

Indeed, however, you presuppose that yor weak, moralistic sense of "right" is held by all. And, naturally, you are wrong. Whilst I remain a critic of legal immigration, provided it is not directed towards our own economic ends, few can doubt that illegal immigration is a social cancer, that does not serve the ends of the host country. Hence, I do not agree with you. Mexico is culpable for its inability to feed its population, and the USA should feel any compulsion to help.

Not a good move.

I see they have an abundance of courage as well.

Food prices in mexico are not my problem, food prices in america are. Stop trying to distract from the issue. Mexico has issues they need to deal with and illegal immigration makes it worse.


FYI, they lose skilled workers and those peoples consumption.Well if the economy of Mexico were in better shape then not so many people would want to leave the country, thus meaning less immigrants for the USA to deal with. Food prices in Mexico ARE part of the issue.

I see they have an abundance of courage as well.

what?

27% of the US Federal prison population is foreign born and if you took into account state and local prisons and jails, no doubt the percent would be even higher.
Can you provide a source for that number? I'd like to see it.

Well if the economy of Mexico were in better shape then not so many people would want to leave the country, thus meaning less immigrants for the USA to deal with. Food prices in Mexico ARE part of the issue.

No the issue is Mexico is an extremely corrupt nation run by a single church, and for most of its post-1910 history a single party (which was also completely corrupt--oh I best not say that could be viewed as a personal attack of the PRI--) and a corrupt class structure made up of business and government elites.

Mexico is a RICH country with a corrupt government--not unlike Nigeria. The government uses the north as a safety value which sends the disaffected north and out of the system and their dollars back south. There is no incentive for the ruling class to change and instead of the populace demanding reform (or even foster a revolution) they simply move north--which really is not good for the US or Mexico in the long term.

The US could help things along by demaning some reforms to be taken or else there would be consequences, but the US has its own business-government corruption issues--the US Chamber of Commerce, the Business Roundtable, etc are no more for reform in Mexico than the ruling elites there are.

Can you provide a source for that number? I'd like to see it.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

what?

Just what I said.

I see they have an abundance of courage as well.

not courage, Intelligence. the Mod is telling you to stop with the personal attacks. continuing to do so will lead to mod action.

Just what I said.

Who is they, the mods? If you want to ignore what fris said then he will just delete you. Thats why I said your post wasn't a good move (assuming you don't want to be deleted).

Who is they, the mods? If you want to ignore what fris said then he will just delete you. Thats why I said your post wasn't a good move (assuming you don't want to be deleted).

Yes, "them." And I will not fall into the usual complaint spoken by others on other venues (and no doubt this one as well) that "They are violating my free speech!" There is no free speech here...nor should there be.

Yes, "them." And I will not fall into the usual complaint spoken by others on other venues (and no doubt this one as well) that "They are violating my free speech!" There is no free speech here...nor should there be.

Since when did anyone say you were violating their free speach?

Since when did anyone say you were violating their free speach?

You misunderstand. I was not saying that anyone made the claim that I was violating anyone's freedom of speech. My comment was that the usual complaint when some Mao in miniature censors, threatens, etc etc. The target of that action usually bitterly complains about their freedom of speech being violated. There is no freedom of speech here..for me or anyone else nor should there be any expectation that there is.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

Thank you :)

Seems it proves your assumption wrong, though. There were in total 295,000 foreign born in prison in 2003.

In 2005 the total prison population was 2,193,798 inmates.

That means that criminal aliens constitute 13,4% of the total prison population.

But I don't think, you have 40% of Mississippians saying they would move to New York either unlike the poll conducted in Mexico. If you don't think dropping the limited border control we have now wouldn't cause a drastic increase in the numbers coming from Mexico (and beyond) you are insane.I wasn't that border controls should just be removed instantly. Economies to do respond well to sudden changes. It would be like abolishing all income tax tomorrow. The economy could not cope with a huge increase in money, nor a huge reduction in government supplied services - the economy would suffer as a result.

No the issue is Mexico is an extremely corrupt nation run by a single church, and for most of its post-1910 history a single party (which was also completely corrupt--oh I best not say that could be viewed as a personal attack of the PRI--) and a corrupt class structure made up of business and government elites.

Mexico is a RICH country with a corrupt government--not unlike Nigeria. The government uses the north as a safety value which sends the disaffected north and out of the system and their dollars back south. There is no incentive for the ruling class to change and instead of the populace demanding reform (or even foster a revolution) they simply move north--which really is not good for the US or Mexico in the long term.

The US could help things along by demaning some reforms to be taken or else there would be consequences, but the US has its own business-government corruption issues--the US Chamber of Commerce, the Business Roundtable, etc are no more for reform in Mexico than the ruling elites there are.With regards to the PRI, I was under the impression that they ran country fairly well up until the 1970s. And that they even managed to keep the Mexican economy growing (substantially), right through the Great Depression. -- the rules are only that you make personal attacks on people on these forums. So insult the PRI all you want.

As for corruption in Nigeria and Mexico this is not something I know much about. My knowledge lies in what lead up to the third world debt and the problems it has helped cause - such as capital flight, severe poverty, degredation of educational standards and so on.

Thank you :)

Seems it proves your assumption wrong, though. There were in total 295,000 foreign born in prison in 2003.

In 2005 the total prison population was 2,193,798 inmates.

That means that criminal aliens constitute 13,4% of the total prison population.

That report claims it was 27% and it is a stat that is often put out there. If you disagree contact the GAO that produced the report. From that report it claims "The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years—about 27 percent." I don't really care.

Of course this counts only foreign-born. The US government doesn't report the number of illegal aliens in the prison population nor the number of illegal aliens arrested for crimes. The FBI UCR for example details crimes by race and by sex for example but not by non-US citizens and not by legal status--it should but it doesn't. No doubt the number of illegal aliens as a percentage of the prison population would be smaller since some of the foreign-born prison population would be permanent residents and legal residents on non-immigrant visas as well.

No. Reality does not always work that way. When I teach my neighbour how to fix her bicycle, she gains but I do not lose. When I visit my friends in the country, I stay at their house. I gain shelter for the evening. What does she lose? Nothing. When an animal pisses in the forest, it gains by ridding itself of waste. The surrounding plant life also gains by acquiring nutrients.

According to you, there should be a loser in all these situations. There is not.

Consequently, saying "That is how it is, how it was, and how it will always be," is a gross generalisation that does not reflect reality.

Is it not possible that by helping Juan, we help ourselves? Not everything fits into a profit/loss paradigm.

By helping her, you lose time. When you visit a friend, they lose money. When an animal pisses in the forest, another animal may loses his territory because of that.

There are losers in all situations. Its karma, yin and yang, order and chaos etc.

That report claims it was 27% and it is a stat that is often put out there. If you disagree contact the GAO that produced the report. From that report it claims "The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years—about 27 percent." I don't really care.

Of course this counts only foreign-born. The US government doesn't report the number of illegal aliens in the prison population nor the number of illegal aliens arrested for crimes. The FBI UCR for example details crimes by race and by sex for example but not by non-US citizens and not by legal status--it should but it doesn't. No doubt the number of illegal aliens as a percentage of the prison population would be smaller since some of the foreign-born prison population would be permanent residents and legal residents on non-immigrant visas as well.
Oh, there was nothing wrong with the report, and the 27% criminal aliens in Federal prisons are correct, I'm sure.

It was only you that was wrong, in saying
27% of the US Federal prison population is foreign born and if you took into account state and local prisons and jails, no doubt the percent would be even higher.
...while, in fact, when taking into account state and local prsons and jails the percent is lower. 13,4% < 27%

That is all.

By helping her, you lose time. When you visit a friend, they lose money. When an animal pisses in the forest, another animal may loses his territory because of that.

There are losers in all situations. Its karma, yin and yang, order and chaos etc.

Actually, by showing her how to do it, I save myself time, as I do not have to do it myself every time that fix needs to be done.
How does my friend lose money when I visit her?
And the other animal may also gain territory, or it may reinforce existing boundaries.

Wow, you were wrong on all three counts. Do you want to try again?

Here's another one: when a bee sucks nectar from several flowers, cross-pollination occurs. Both the flowers and the bee benefit. Again, there is no loser. There is no natural law that says that in every transaction there must always be a loser.

27% of the US Federal prison population is foreign born and if you took into account state and local prisons and jails, no doubt the percent would be even higher. US hospitals must care to medical needs of illegals no matter if they can pay or not and school systems must educate their children no matter their legal status as some states offer in-state rates to illegals while their LEGAL US citizen peers and legal F-1 visa studetns from abroad must pay the out of state rates.

SOME illegals do pay income taxes, but many do not. And I will not even get into the costs associated with quality of life issues.You know, or they could always deport them. Most countries have schemes to repatriate citizens who were convicted abroad back into their home country's prisons. In fact I seem to remember a case where the US trying to stop a British citizen being repatriated intot he UK to serve the rest of his sentence in the UK. I know the US has threatened to stop any repatriation of UK hacker if he is convicted. The the reason for the high prison US population seems to me to be entirely of the US'es own doing.