NationStates Jolt Archive

It's free speech, dude. I just wish someone would picket outside his church and his home.

Er... you're a couple days to late. There's already another thread on this(On page 1, no less).

I'll need to see at least one reliable link before I believe that this is true. Oh, but if it is...

How long can he be alowed to do this?

Seriously something has to be done, I always believed in "Sir i hate what you are saying but i will defend your right to say it" but some things go TOO far.

and on related issue. How many of you would really love to go picket HIS funeral. With signs "Fred Phelps is burning in hell" and "Whore of Satan, and bringer of his message is with his Master now"

"Fred Phelps is dead. He is no more; void of life and thought. Good riddance."

That would be quite a bit more effective, methinks.

How long can he be alowed to do this?

Seriously something has to be done, I always believed in "Sir i hate what you are saying but i will defend your right to say it" but some things go TOO far.

and on related issue. How many of you would really love to go picket HIS funeral. With signs "Fred Phelps is burning in hell" and "Whore of Satan, and bringer of his message is with his Master now"

Holy
It's free speech, dude. I just wish someone would picket outside his church and his home.
WA-
Er... you're a couple days to late. There's already another thread on this(On page 1, no less).
-RP-
I'll need to see at least one reliable link before I believe that this is true. Oh, but if it is...
-ING
"Fred Phelps is dead. He is no more; void of life and thought. Good riddance."

That would be quite a bit more effective, methinks.

Shit!

reliable link was requested.

godhatesamerica.com/

preaching means picketing and yelling hateful things at people attending funeral.

reliable link was requested.

*CENSORED*

preaching means picketing and yelling hateful things at people attending funeral.

Uh... I though we weren't supposed to link to that shit.

reliable link was requested.

*Snip apparently we're not supposed to link there*

preaching means picketing and yelling hateful things at people attending funeral.

So...

This begs the question of whether or not he'll be attending the SHOOTER's funeral to protest. Because if he shows up for the other students but not the shooter that's just fucked up.

oh but you don't understand.
shooter was a rightful tool of God. As Phelps sees it shooter is only one of them that might be in heaven.

Yeah. He stalked women, like a god-fearing man is supposed to.

So...

This begs the question of whether or not he'll be attending the SHOOTER's funeral to protest. Because if he shows up for the other students but not the shooter that's just fucked up.

oh but you don't understand.
shooter was a rightful tool of God. As Phelps sees it shooter is only one of them that might be in heaven.

as i see it god fearing man don't insult crying mothers of dead children either.

Well that's the way you see it and that's why Phelps thinks you're going to burn in hell with the sodomites.

Screw phelps. Is there any-one other himself and his terrorist organisation who he does not think is going to hell?

Yeah. He stalked women, like a god-fearing man is supposed to.

as i see it god fearing man don't insult crying mothers of dead children either.

oh but you don't understand.
shooter was a rightful tool of God. As Phelps sees it shooter is only one of them that might be in heaven.

That's actually exactly what I was thinking must be going through Phelps's head. But it seems fucked up, even for him...

So we'll get to see how fucked up he actually is.

Although, to be honest DCD, not to defend him, but from what I read what he did to the woman was nowhere near stalker levels. From what I understand, he sent them emails which the woman described as "annoying" and neither of them decided to press charges.

Where's a crazy psychopathic Sout Korean totting 9's when you actually need him :rolleyes:

See, this is a major failing in America. The First Ammendment... what about inciting hatred? From what I have read on Wikipedia about this guy, aside from needing a bullet in his head from the nearest South Korean with anger issues, he requires a prison sentence for inciting hatred.

See, this is a major failing in America. The First Ammendment... what about inciting hatred? From what I have read on Wikipedia about this guy, aside from needing a bullet in his head from the nearest South Korean with anger issues, he requires a prison sentence for inciting hatred.

Part of free speech is free speech for assholes. You know, I hate what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it. That kind of stuff.

Where's a crazy psychopathic Sout Korean totting 9's when you actually need him :rolleyes:

See, this is a major failing in America. The First Ammendment... what about inciting hatred? From what I have read on Wikipedia about this guy, aside from needing a bullet in his head from the nearest South Korean with anger issues, he requires a prison sentence for inciting hatred.

And so it begins. :rolleyes:

Well Sweden seems to have the right of it with their Hate Speech law. Generally speaking I am against almost all forms of censorship, however when you publically encourage people to hate another group of people, it is not condusive to society. Funny thing is, if he were to preach hate against say Muslims, he would likely end up being assassinated.

See, this is a major failing in America. The First Ammendment... what about inciting hatred? From what I have read on Wikipedia about this guy, aside from needing a bullet in his head from the nearest South Korean with anger issues, he requires a prison sentence for inciting hatred.It isn't free speech if it's restricted, now is it?
If we decide to restrict speech because we disagree, who sets the standard? Does Fred Phelps? Do I? Do you? Who decides "you can't say that"?

Well Sweden seems to have the right of it with their Hate Speech law. Generally speaking I am against almost all forms of censorship, however when you publically encourage people to hate another group of people, it is not condusive to society. Funny thing is, if he were to preach hate against say Muslims, he would likely end up being assassinated.
nearest South Korean with anger issues
quoted for a bit of irony.

No one listens to this guy. Those that do are like him anyway, and inconsequential.

It is free speech if you can say it in the privacy of your own home. However to publically denounce any minority group is damaging to society. Of course if I were anywhere near Fred Phelps, I'd be forced to protest outside his house with large banners proclaiming belief in God to be worthy of public spanking by a large man in tight leather and vaseline, so really I suppose the whole absurd amounts of free speech in America isn't all bad.

"Fred Phelps is dead. He is no more; void of life and thought. Good riddance."

"'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This Phelps is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PHELPS!!"

It isn't free speech if it's restricted, now is it?
If we decide to restrict speech because we disagree, who sets the standard? Does Fred Phelps? Do I? Do you? Who decides "you can't say that"?
normally? Society through their Government.

Your ammendment is acceptable. Now then, who wants to paint some placards?! I'll be getting a plane ticket.

"'E's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This Phelps is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PHELPS!!"

Beautiful bird, lovely plumage. :D

It is free speech if you can say it in the privacy of your own home. However to publically denounce any minority group is damaging to society. Of course if I were anywhere near Fred Phelps, I'd be forced to protest outside his house with large banners proclaiming belief in God to be worthy of public spanking by a large man in tight leather and vaseline, so really I suppose the whole absurd amounts of free speech in America isn't all bad.change that to Phelps and Co being worthy of public spanking by a large group of homosexuals in tight leather, and military personnel all armed with Vaseline and used condoms... and I'll join you at that protest!

lol Junii, just lol.

Your ammendment is acceptable. Now then, who wants to paint some placards?! I'll be getting a plane ticket.

... I'll leave the gathering of the used condoms to someone else... anyone wants to help me with the vasaline filled water balloons?

normally? Society through their Government.
Or the Government through the Government.
I don't always agree with "society"...I'd prefer if they don't control what I say.
It is free speech if you can say it in the privacy of your own home. However to publically denounce any minority group is damaging to society. Of course if I were anywhere near Fred Phelps, I'd be forced to protest outside his house with large banners proclaiming belief in God to be worthy of public spanking by a large man in tight leather and vaseline, so really I suppose the whole absurd amounts of free speech in America isn't all bad.Under even the most repressive governments, you can say what you want in your own home, as long as "they" don't hear you.
Freedom of speech means just that. You can say what you want, where you want without fear of persecution from the government.
The extremes are what make the right worth having. It doesn't damage society, as it is a part of society. You might not like it, but it is there. Putting a ban on it just sends it underground, which is usually more dangerous.

I wonder what Phelps' reaction would be should any catastrophe befall his family?

Am I the only person wondering why a tornado hasn't swept them all away?

Would it be the wrath of God -- or merely a test?

Or the Government through the Government.
I don't always agree with "society"...I'd prefer if they don't control what I say. Believe it or not, the Government does listen to Society. that's how that ban on protesting on Federal Cemetaries got passed. how the FAA can censor the content of what is broadcast. all those were in response to society demanding the Government does something.

Freedom of speech can be taken too far. At what point does it cease being freedom of speech and become criminal? When a person says that its wrong to be gay? When a person says that all Christians are wrong and shall be punished by Jehovah for following a false prophet? When a person says that a foreign Government is an enemy of the people and must be destroyed? What of an American who proclaims in the streets that George Bush be arrested for war crimes with the intent to execute him if found guilty?

As far as I am concerned, it is intolerable to have people inciting hatred against minorities. Currently I could stand in America with a sign saying, "Cripples must not be allowed to mate, to ensure genetic purity." I could chant it, and stand outside the funeral of someone disabled screaming it with a choir. I cannot help but feel that is bad for society, especially if used through a medium as powerful as organized religion.

I wonder what Phelps' reaction would be should any catastrophe befall his family?

Am I the only person wondering why a tornado hasn't swept them all away?

Would it be the wrath of God -- or merely a test?

I consider Phelps a test... for us, not him and his.

at this point and time, I just ignore what Phelps is saying/doing and pray for his soul.

I would love to meet this man.

Believe it or not, the Government does listen to Society. that's how that ban on protesting on Federal Cemetaries got passed. how the FAA can censor the content of what is broadcast. all those were in response to society demanding the Government does something.Some governments listen almost all of the time. Many listen most of the time. some rarely or never listen. None listen all of the time.
Do we want to set ourselves up for the day that ours might choose not to listen?
And even then, what about those who disagree with society? Should they be silenced because they disagree? Should I have listened to those hicks who told me to leave the country because I don't support the war?

Freedom of speech can be taken too far. At what point does it cease being freedom of speech and become criminal?
Slander, libel, clear and present danger.
When a person says that its wrong to be gay? When a person says that all Christians are wrong and shall be punished by Jehovah for following a false prophet? When a person says that a foreign Government is an enemy of the people and must be destroyed? What of an American who proclaims in the streets that George Bush be arrested for war crimes with the intent to execute him if found guilty?
Well, that statement sounds like it might be coming from me.
As far as I am concerned, it is intolerable to have people inciting hatred against minorities. Currently I could stand in America with a sign saying, "Cripples must not be allowed to mate, to ensure genetic purity." I could chant it, and stand outside the funeral of someone disabled screaming it with a choir. I cannot help but feel that is bad for society, especially if used through a medium as powerful as organized religion.Right. You think it is wrong for someone to do that. Hell, most of society thinks it would be wrong for someone to do it, regardless of the medium.

But just because you disagree doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You have stances that I disagree with. If the majority of society agreed with me and not you, would you willingly never speak about them? Everyone has differing opinions, and no ones opinions are mainstream 100% of the time. If we protect those who are the farthest from the main, we protect ourselves.

Again, it isn't bad for society to say those things because it is a PART of society. Closing your eyes and plugging your ears does nothing. While I hate what Phelps says, he does one good thing. He starts a dialog. Through that dialog, we have a chance to actually improve society, rather than pretend that it is perfect and he is somehow outside of it.

I wonder what Phelps' reaction would be should any catastrophe befall his family?

Am I the only person wondering why a tornado hasn't swept them all away?

Would it be the wrath of God -- or merely a test?
Oh, I'll be there when that happens, all set to tap dance on his coffin.

It's free speech, dude. I just wish someone would picket outside his church and his home.

I'd prefer to see someone outside of his church and home throwing firebombs and canisters of sarin gas, but that's just me.

I'd prefer to see someone outside of his church and home throwing firebombs and canisters of sarin gas, but that's just me.

As much as it sucks, we have to remain civil about this lest we end up like him. :(

I'd prefer to see someone outside of his church and home throwing firebombs and canisters of sarin gas, but that's just me.

Here's an interesting question for you, Cruxium.

Should TGSM be allowed to say what I have quoted here?

Did you guys know Phelps called Bill O'reilly a fag enabler?

As much as it sucks, we have to remain civil about this lest we end up like him. :(

Nonsense. We state, as a collectivity, that we have certain standards. We believe in certain shared values. Human rights, for example. We don't believe that, in our society, people should be murdered just because they're black, or women, or Jewish, or gay, or whatever.

Now enter someone who exploits our shared value of 'free speech' to say that none of our standards matter. That we should murder the gay people, keep the women as our breeding chattel, enslave the blacks, expel the Jews, or whatever. If such a person has so much disdain for such a fundamental pillar of our society-- if they disrespect the community so much that they *maliciously* attack its values, for instance by applauding the murder of 30+ innocent people-- then they have stepped outside of our society. They've put themselves at odds with it, declared war on it, exempted themselves from the shared common framework of discourse, so they don't get to benefit from its protections.

Or reduced to something absurdly simple: you have the right to life and liberty and pursuit of happiness-- great-- but if you set out to commit genocide against the rest of the human race, then no, we revoke those rights because your only use for them is to spend your life attacking the rest of us. If you place yourself SO FAR outside the realm of civil discourse and you spit on the rules that keep society from imploding into an orgy of violence, then don't expect those rules to protect you.

Phelps' actions in the public sphere practically scream that he "opts out" of the social contract. If he would rather live in an uncivilised social wilderness of lynchings and violent condemnation, then let him reap what he sews. Let his home be burned down, as he would like to see others' homes burned down. That's the world that he *wants,* and once he's been excised like cancer, the rest of the world can get on with being better than that.

Nonsense. We state, as a collectivity, that we have certain standards. We believe in certain shared values. Human rights, for example. We don't believe that, in our society, people should be murdered just because they're black, or women, or Jewish, or gay, or whatever.That society includes the man that you just wished painful death upon.

Now enter someone who exploits our shared value of 'free speech' to say that none of our standards matter. That we should murder the gay people, keep the women as our breeding chattel, enslave the blacks, expel the Jews, or whatever. If such a person has so much disdain for such a fundamental pillar of our society-- if they disrespect the community so much that they *maliciously* attack its values, for instance by applauding the murder of 30+ innocent people-- then they have stepped outside of our society. They've put themselves at odds with it, declared war on it, exempted themselves from the shared common framework of discourse, so they don't get to benefit from its protections.
Every single person is in some way at odds with society. They are still a part of it. He shares in our value of freedom of speech. He must function within our laws (can't murder, threaten, etc). If you don't support total freedom of speech, are you not at odds with society? Have you not declared war on it?

You cannot cure society by ignoring its faults.

Or reduced to something absurdly simple: you have the right to life and liberty and pursuit of happiness-- great-- but if you set out to commit genocide against the rest of the human race, then no, we revoke those rights because your only use for them is to spend your life attacking the rest of us. If you place yourself SO FAR outside the realm of civil discourse and you spit on the rules that keep society from imploding into an orgy of violence, then don't expect those rules to protect you.
Saying a hateful message is inanely different from genocide.
The rules say he has a right to say what he does. They protect him.
Phelps' actions in the public sphere practically scream that he "opts out" of the social contract. If he would rather live in an uncivilised social wilderness of lynchings and violent condemnation, then let him reap what he sews. And yet, he functions within the society. When he moves outside of society, he is arrested.
Let his home be burned down, as he would like to see others' homes burned down. That's the world that he *wants,* and once he's been excised like cancer, the rest of the world can get on with being better than that.
Ah. I understand now. It is okay, nay, a BLESSING when we spew the same hate towards him that he spews towards us, but when he says it, because it isn't socially acceptable, he should be attacked with sarin gas or have his house burned down. Now it all makes sense.

What Sarky said. *nods*

Some governments listen almost all of the time. Many listen most of the time. some rarely or never listen. None listen all of the time.
Do we want to set ourselves up for the day that ours might choose not to listen?
And even then, what about those who disagree with society? Should they be silenced because they disagree? Should I have listened to those hicks who told me to leave the country because I don't support the war?the Government listens all the time, it just may not be listening to YOUR particular voice at the moment.

so yes, there are times when the Government does not listen to you and yours. but it's only temporary.

and nowhere did I suggest silence. I have always suggested restraint and control, but I never suggested silence. ;)


Oh, I'll be there when that happens, all set to tap dance on his coffin.now that is tacky...


scratch that... a soft shoe dance on his coffin is tacky... ;)

the Government listens all the time, it just may not be listening to YOUR particular voice at the moment.

so yes, there are times when the Government does not listen to you and yours. but it's only temporary.

and nowhere did I suggest silence. I have always suggested restraint and control, but I never suggested silence. ;)So the Chinese government under Mao listened?

Personal restraint, sure. Restraint imposed from the government? hell no.


now that is tacky...


scratch that... a soft shoe dance on his coffin is tacky... ;)
I was thinking a bit of "Puttin' on the Ritz" from Young Frankenstein

I would love to meet this man.

Well let's make a road trip out of it! I'm sure someone'll bail us out within an hour..

Well let's make a road trip out of it! I'm sure someone'll bail us out within an hour..

I'm afraid I might not be able to controll myself, and might bring along the m249 saw machine gun my uncle bought off of a "friend"...

Well let's make a road trip out of it! I'm sure someone'll bail us out within an hour..

I was seriously considering going down to VA to counter protest. But I'm broke, so... We were thinking about carrying signs that read 'God Hates Fred Phelps' on one side, and 'God Hates Asshats' on the other...

I'm afraid I might not be able to controll myself, and might bring along the m249 saw machine gun my uncle bought off of a "friend"...

You live in New Jersery. You live in New Jersery and you bought a gun. You live in New Jersery and you bought a gun from Tony Soprano. You lucky sonuvabish..

Perhaps we could simmer down and use paintball guns?

So the Chinese government under Mao listened?yep. but the real question is WHO did the Chinese Government listen to?

Personal restraint, sure. Restraint imposed from the government? hell no.if more people excercised personal restraint then the government wouldn't have to impose restraint.


I was thinking a bit of "Puttin' on the Ritz" from Young Frankenstein

... complete with heavy... HEAVY boots and the fire at the end?

Well let's make a road trip out of it! I'm sure someone'll bail us out within an hour..

someone once said that the sign of a Good Friend is someone who will bail you out of jail at 2:30 in the morning. Hell No... A Good Friend wouldn't do that. Because a Good Friend will be sittin next to you in Jail waiting to be bailed out himself...

:)

You live in New Jersery. You live in New Jersery and you bought a gun. You live in New Jersery and you bought a gun from Tony Soprano. You lucky sonuvabish..

Perhaps we could simmer down and use paintball guns?

Ohh ok. I suppose I could land a kill shot if quiet mumblings

yep. but the real question is WHO did the Chinese Government listen to?not society? ;)

if more people excercised personal restraint then the government wouldn't have to impose restraint.
It is nice when people exercise personal restraint, yes. The lack of personal restraint, however, doesn't permit the government to impose it unless it is slander, libel, or presents clear and present danger. Beyond that, what do we have to fear? That someone might have their feelings hurt? Childrens minds might be corrupted? Or maybe that we might have to face the fact that these people, these sentiments exist in our society, and the only way to have a shot in hell is to actually confront them? Coming face to face with our own evils ain't easy...but it is necessary.

Footprints in the sand are never made sitting around.



... complete with heavy... HEAVY boots and the fire at the end?oh yeah. The fire is clutch.

Well let's make a road trip out of it! I'm sure someone'll bail us out within an hour..Of COURSE we will...;)

So the Chinese government under Mao listened?

They sure did listen - it's just that they had you killed if they didn't like what they heard.

not society? ;)the members of the Government are also part of their society... ;)

It is nice when people exercise personal restraint, yes. The lack of personal restraint, however, doesn't permit the government to impose it unless it is slander, libel, or presents clear and present danger. Beyond that, what do we have to fear? That someone might have their feelings hurt? Childrens minds might be corrupted? Or maybe that we might have to face the fact that these people, these sentiments exist in our society, and the only way to have a shot in hell is to actually confront them? Coming face to face with our own evils ain't easy...but it is necessary. it's not just the lack of restraint, but it's also forcing the goverment to step in and impose those restraints. that's why it's so important not to vote party lines but to really listen to who you are electing.

and think about it. Gun control laws are a form of Restraint. same with any decision concerning Abortion and Same Sex Marriage or anything. making a law to allow it is restraining those opposed to that activity. so the call for self restraint is for everyone, pro or con on any issue.

Footprints in the sand are never made sitting around.and people walking backwards or in a circle will also leave footprints in the sand...

oh yeah. The fire is clutch.I'll bring the weiner dogs! :D

They sure did listen - it's just that they had you killed if they didn't like what they heard.Not quite the caring ear you'd hope for...

the members of the Government are also part of their society... ;) Ah, but I deliniated between the two, which, in part, spawned this little discussion

it's not just the lack of restraint, but it's also forcing the goverment to step in and impose those restraints. that's why it's so important not to vote party lines but to really listen to who you are electing.Why does a lack of restraint (when dealing with speech) require someone to step in? What harm can a word do? If you are offended, atleast you are thinking.

and think about it. Gun control laws are a form of Restraint. same with any decision concerning Abortion and Same Sex Marriage or anything. making a law to allow it is restraining those opposed to that activity. so the call for self restraint is for everyone, pro or con on any issue.Guns can be used to kill. Abortion, as it is argued, can be considered murder by some. Same sex marriage...haha...well, lets not even open that can of worms. Words, despite all their power, cannot injure.

and people walking backwards or in a circle will also leave footprints in the sand...Better to me moving than stagnant.

I'll bring the weiner dogs! :DI got some skewers

"Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of a religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances." ~ a group of very wise men, and the supreme law of this Republic.

I don't like it either. I mourn the loss of the VA tech students, and this is pretty horrible, but liberty isn't always sunshine and roses. Phelps is both speaking freely and, in his own way, petitioning his government for a redress of grievances.

Not quite the caring ear you'd hope for...listening =|= careing ear. :p

Ah, but I deliniated between the two, which, in part, spawned this little discussion... I think it started with who restricts freedoms or speech... I think...

Why does a lack of restraint (when dealing with speech) require someone to step in? What harm can a word do? If you are offended, atleast you are thinking.errr... "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theatre and False 911 calls to start with. all examples of Freedom of Speech/expression without restraint. Terroristic threatening is also illegal (and this is before the Patriot Act.) Freedom of speech does not only mean standing on a soapbox infront of a crowd you know. ;)

Guns can be used to kill. Abortion, as it is argued, can be considered murder by some. Same sex marriage...haha...well, lets not even open that can of worms. Words, despite all their power, cannot injure. words can. Insults can lead to a fight in the parking lot. words can destroy dreams, cause nations to go to war, even mean the difference between a child succeeding or failing. Words can do far more damage than you think.

Better to me moving than stagnant.so moving backwards is better than standing still? think about what you just said.

you just said that...
Removal of civil rights is better than continuing to argue it out until a procedure is found that makes everyone satisfied.
Rushing to make decisions is far more preferable than weighing the facts and determining what is fact and fiction.
blurting out things is far better than selecting one's words carefully.


I got some skewers kewl! :D

err the skewers are for Phelps or the hot dogs?

God hates Fred Phelps (http://www.netdisaster.com/goff.php?mode=god&lang=en&url=http://www.godhatesamerica.com/):D

K. I can't type tonight appearently. Sorry for all the typos.

listening =|= careing ear. :ptrue dat.

... I think it started with who restricts freedoms or speech... I think...something like that

errr... "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theatre and False 911 calls to start with. all examples of Freedom of Speech/expression without restraint. Terroristic threatening is also illegal (and this is before the Patriot Act.) Freedom of speech does not only mean standing on a soapbox infront of a crowd you know. ;) Yeah, as I mentioned before, the US has restrictions on clear and present danger, slander, and libel.

Only one of these actually deserves it.

Although, if my neighbor plays Heartbreaker one more time, I might take away his freedom of speech....

words can. Insults can lead to a fight in the parking lot. words can destroy dreams, cause nations to go to war, even mean the difference between a child succeeding or failing. Words can do far more damage than you think.Oh, I know and respect the power of words (or else I wouldn't be an English major). However, I can't shoot or beat you with my words. At least not physically.

so moving backwards is better than standing still? think about what you just said.define whats backwards. Then we'll see if I think it's good.

Any movement is better than standing still. Standing still means you're complacent. Things can always be better, and the only way to know if theoretical position A is better than status quo is to move towards it.

you just said that...
Removal of civil rights is better than continuing to argue it out until a procedure is found that makes everyone satisfied.
Rushing to make decisions is far more preferable than weighing the facts and determining what is fact and fiction.
blurting out things is far better than selecting one's words carefully.
Not quite. Moving carefully is not the same as being stagnant. Metaphors, of course, can only go so far. Movement of thought (such as the consideration of fact that you mention) is still movement.
Complacency and apathy, on the other hand. That is stagnation.

kewl! :D

err the skewers are for Phelps or the hot dogs?
We'll just have to wait and see.

K. I can't type tonight appearently. Sorry for all the typos.Fear not, Spelling Nazi I am not.

something like that
Yeah, as I mentioned before, the US has restrictions on clear and present danger, slander, and libel.

Only one of these actually deserves it.

Although, if my neighbor plays Heartbreaker one more time, I might take away his freedom of speech...... or at least hamper his ability to listen to that song one more time... :p

Oh, I know and respect the power of words (or else I wouldn't be an English major). However, I can't shoot or beat you with my words. At least not physically.a sword will kill you once, but the pen can kill you a thousand times.

define whats backwards. Then we'll see if I think it's good. say, a democracy voting and reinstating a monachy or dictatorship, or even secular rule, removal of civil rights. What many think President Bush and Co are doing to America...

Any movement is better than standing still. Standing still means you're complacent. Things can always be better, and the only way to know if theoretical position A is better than status quo is to move towards it.standing still could also mean pondering your next step. planning it to make the best possible choice.

Not quite. Moving carefully is not the same as being stagnant. Metaphors, of course, can only go so far. Movement of thought (such as the consideration of fact that you mention) is still movement. but thoughts don't leave footprints in the sand. ;) agreed about the limitation of some metaphors.

Complacency and apathy, on the other hand. That is stagnation. agreed and never argued.

We'll just have to wait and see.*packs wet wipes just in case.*

a sword will kill you once, but the pen can kill you a thousand times.Only if you mess up the first time ;)
We're just full of fun quotes tonight, aren't you?

While it is true that words can "kill" you a thousand times, they still don't kill. That feeling of death, that offense that you take to whatever was said, what does it do? It makes you think. And that is generally a good thing

say, a democracy voting and reinstating a monachy or dictatorship, or even secular rule, removal of civil rights. What many think President Bush and Co are doing to America... For me, yes. That would be bad. For someone who supports a monarchy? Not so much.
But more importantly, I know that the status quo isn't perfect (nor am I naive enough to think it ever will be, but that is neither here nor there)...what I don't know is what moving towards a monarchy or dictatorship would do. Maybe things would improve, maybe they would get worse. But by standing still, I'd never know. Atleast by moving towards any of those things, or towards any of their polar opposites, I'd have learned something.

standing still could also mean pondering your next step. planning it to make the best possible choice.Thats where my little issue with limited metaphor comes in. Mental motion is, at least as far as I'm concerned, motion.

but thoughts don't leave footprints in the sand. ;) agreed about the limitation of some metaphors. Nor do people without legs:( ;)



*packs wet wipes just in case.*good call

While it is true that words can "kill" you a thousand times, they still don't kill. That feeling of death, that offense that you take to whatever was said, what does it do? It makes you think. And that is generally a good thingwords can break up friendships, they can prevent someone from earning a decent wage, they can cast fear and suspicion on anyone. Words can cause people to commit suicide or to kill others. and the sad thing is that words can never be taken back.
For me, yes. That would be bad. For someone who supports a monarchy? Not so much.but one man's pain could be another man's pleasure. ;)

But more importantly, I know that the status quo isn't perfect (nor am I naive enough to think it ever will be, but that is neither here nor there)...what I don't know is what moving towards a monarchy or dictatorship would do. Maybe things would improve, maybe they would get worse. But by standing still, I'd never know. Atleast by moving towards any of those things, or towards any of their polar opposites, I'd have learned something.never said the Status Quo is perfect. but then again, neither is change.

Thats where my little issue with limited metaphor comes in. Mental motion is, at least as far as I'm concerned, motion.

Nor do people without legs:( ;) but they do lea... ok, let's let this metaphor die. Shall I perform last rites or do you want that honor. :p

good call yeah, hate for anyone to get sick and die from whatever rot Phelps and Co has.

that would really... suck. :p


Edit... can't resist...

Only if you mess up the first time "I'll Carve your heart out with a SPOON!"
We're just full of fun quotes tonight, aren't you? "My name is Inigio Montoya, you killed my father... Prepare to die." :D

words can break up friendships, they can prevent someone from earning a decent wage, they can cast fear and suspicion on anyone. Words can cause people to commit suicide or to kill others. and the sad thing is that words can never be taken back.[True. But I can't beat you with a word, in the most literal sense of that statement. Words, in my opinion, are the most powerful thing on Earth (precisely why I hate just about any form of censorship). But they just don't have a direct physical weight.
Actually, one of the best books I've ever read is possibly the most offensive, to Jews, Irish, Germans, Mexicans...you name it, this book offends. And the author meant it. But it makes you think and consider and re-evaluate (McTeague by Frank Norris)
but one man's pain could be another man's pleasure. ;)
"if this is torture, chain me to the wall"

never said the Status Quo is perfect. but then again, neither is change.
Change isn't perfect, but it is atleast an attempt to fix problems.
but they do lea... ok, let's let this metaphor die. Shall I perform last rites or do you want that honor. :p You give the rites, I'll inform the relatives.

yeah, hate for anyone to get sick and die from whatever rot Phelps and Co has.

that would really... suck. :p


Edit... can't resist...resistance is futile?

I got the lysol, just incase

"I'll Carve your heart out with a SPOON!"
"My name is Inigio Montoya, you killed my father... Prepare to die." :D

Know why I like debating you? We manage to debate things for a good amount of time, and slowly, our entire debate becomes random jokes and quotes untill one of us has to leave.

True. But I can't beat you with a word, in the most literal sense of that statement. Words, in my opinion, are the most powerful thing on Earth (precisely why I hate just about any form of censorship). But they just don't have a direct physical weight. You know the reply... right? ever had the Unabridged dictionary fall on your foot?
:p
Actually, one of the best books I've ever read is possibly the most offensive, to Jews, Irish, Germans, Mexicans...you name it, this book offends. And the author meant it. But it makes you think and consider and re-evaluate (McTeague by Frank Norris)and there are others. words form ideas and it can drive a man to put those ideas into action. for the most part, the outcome is favorable to most... but the other times...

Change isn't perfect, but it is atleast an attempt to fix problems. is it always? not really. :p
You give the rites, I'll inform the relatives. Owata Gou Siam!

resistance is futile? and, at times, fun.

Know why I like debating you? We manage to debate things for a good amount of time, and slowly, our entire debate becomes random jokes and quotes untill one of us has to leave.
well, we both respect each others opinions. we strive to find the truth of each others posisitions and we do it in a fun manner. :p

and we also don't take it personally. ;)

and speaking of leaving... I'm running out of excuses to give my boss on why I am 4+ hours past my quitting time... TTFN!

You know the reply... right? ever had the Unabridged dictionary fall on your foot?
:p Yes. Thanks for reminding me :( ;)
and there are others. words form ideas and it can drive a man to put those ideas into action. for the most part, the outcome is favorable to most... but the other times... I'm just not ready to ban mean words and hatred and "bad" acts because we don't like them.
Not to mention the issue of satire...is Mark Twain saying "******" hate speech?

is it always? not really. :p True, but even out of a change made to force things to get worse, something good can be found. Or, at the very least, a lesson learned. Wow that was cheezy.

and, at times, fun.
but I can't afford the times when it's fun :eek:


well, we both respect each others opinions. we strive to find the truth of each others posisitions and we do it in a fun manner. :p

and we also don't take it personally. ;) everyone should clearly be like us

and speaking of leaving... I'm running out of excuses to give my boss on why I am 4+ hours past my quitting time... TTFN!haha...and I'm trying to justify being up at 2 when I need to be up again at 6

Here's what we do to resolve the Phelps Dilemma. At least around here. We rally the Generalites from VA, and we start popping up at his protests, hopefully in suitably menacing vehicles, and at least somewhat armed. We then become confrontational, but remain non-violent. Possibly paying our respects to the deceased and sticking a finger in the eye of Phelps and co. Repeat ad nauseum till they die out from sheer apoplexy.

Here's what we do to resolve the Phelps Dilemma. At least around here. We rally the Generalites from VA, and we start popping up at his protests, hopefully in suitably menacing vehicles, and at least somewhat armed. We then become confrontational, but remain non-violent. Possibly paying our respects to the deceased and sticking a finger in the eye of Phelps and co. Repeat ad nauseum till they die out from sheer apoplexy.

*hands you a cookie*

Now if you guys will excuse me *loads a automatic shotgun* An OACFers gotta do what an OACFers gotta do! *starts hunting corrupt fundies*

This is just sad to see. All people have a basic right to life regardless of their faith or lack there of. You can't just kill someone because you don't agree with them and to picket at a tradegy like is very saddening. These people have such a twisted view of Christianity.

Could someone please post the link to the article again.

This is just sad to see. All people have a basic right to life regardless of their faith or lack there of. You can't just kill someone because you don't agree with them and to picket at a tradegy like is very saddening. These people have such a twisted view of Christianity.

No... Trash gets taken out. This applies in all contexts. Phelps and his pack spout shit and try to be intimidating. They then avoid any true confrontation. They are in effect human diarrhea. 7 or 8 fairly large, at least semi-armed NSers should pose an impediment they'd not dare to oppose. In fact, there's a funeral tomorrow. At 1 something. Who's with me? I'm always good at being confrontational.

Could someone please post the link to the article again.

I'll check if we're allowed to.

Nope, no dice.

Uhh, people, it would be a good time to brush up on your First Amendment.

While protest is normally protected by the First Amendment, verbal abuse and fighting words are not; see Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire.

Also...

By Phelps's own admission, he never dated, and had no interest in members of the opposite sex.

Who's a flaming homosexual now?

By Phelps's own admission, he never dated, and had no interest in members of the opposite sex.
Who's a flaming homosexual now?
well, by the look of his wife, it definately wasn't out of love...

I'll check if we're allowed to.

Nope, no dice.

...

Why?

...

Why?

Because I can't find it in the general media, and links to Phelps are forbidden. I'm sure my laziness is more at fault than any lack of material, but I'm not looking all over the place to rehash a fairly simple concept.

Allow me to summarize this story for everyone:

Fred Phelps is an idiot. He's the worlds most famous homophobe. He takes it upon himself to protest anything that he disagrees with. To this end he and his pack of shit perotest funerals, and preach loads of hate. He targeted the VT massacre funerals for some reason, and I can see some serious backlash, to the point of active violence.

Fred Phelps is an idiot. He's the worlds most famous homophobe. He takes it upon himself to protest anything that he disagrees with. To this end he and his pack of shit perotest funerals, and preach loads of hate. He targeted the VT massacre funerals for some reason, and I can see some serious backlash, to the point of active violence.

Freddie might say...

"I'm the world's most famous homophilic. I take it upon myself to protest everything that God disagrees with.

I'm trying to save you from eternal hell."

and links to Phelps are forbidden.

Why? Since when?

Why? Since when?

Since a mod(Fris I think) said so a few hours ago.

Freddie might say...

"I'm the world's most famous homophilic. I take it upon myself to protest everything that God disagrees with.

I'm trying to save you from eternal hell."

I might say "Stand up. That way you can fall over when I hit you for being a disgrace to Christianity." But odds are good I'll never get that chance.

Since a mod(Fris I think) said so a few hours ago.

That's stupid. What if he's arrested? What if he dies?

"Topic: Fred Phelps is dead. You'll have to take my work for it."

:rolleyes:

That's stupid. What if he's arrested? What if he died?

"Topic: Fred Phelps is dead. You'll have to take my work for it."

:rolleyes:

No. I mean his specific website, www.Ican'tactuallytypetherealaddressherebecauseit'sagainsttherules.com.

And if he died, I'm suer Fox News would be happy to tell us. Or arrested for that matter. They've got a thing against him.

How about some group protests outside of his house saying

"God Hates Fred Phelps!"

That might get the point across.

How about some group protests outside of his house saying

"God Hates Fred Phelps!"

That might get the point across.

I stand by my proposal. Rally the Virginians, and let's roll out.

I stand by my proposal. Rally the Virginians, and let's roll out.

Sorry. Californian. Broke, too. I'd really love to, plus visit Virginia again, but I have college classes to attend, not some moron rant about how God hates America and how he sent Cho to kill these people.

How can a church leader be for something evil? I don't get it. This guy must be a drug user... or a pupil of Peter Popoff :D

I'd just like to point out that if somehow Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptists are correct, and their version of god is exactly as they describe him and we really are all going to Hell, then I for one am glad. First of all because I'd never worship such an asshole of a god even if I DID believe in their god. Second because I'd rather burn in hell than spend one solitary instant in Heaven with those cocksuckers.

Their Heaven is my personal Hell. :p

I'd just like to point out that if somehow Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptists are correct, and their version of god is exactly as they describe him and we really are all going to Hell, then I for one am glad. First of all because I'd never worship such an asshole of a god even if I DID believe in their god. Second because I'd rather burn in hell than spend one solitary instant in Heaven with those cocksuckers.

Their Heaven is my personal Hell. :p

Well if they all went to heaven there'd be all of 30 of them there. Imagine the parties we'd have in hell with the other billions of people.

Well if they all went to heaven there'd be all of 30 of them there. Imagine the parties we'd have in hell with the other billions of people.
They'd probably be kicked out immediately after changing their message to "God Loves Fags" and trying to overthrow him.

No... Trash gets taken out. This applies in all contexts. Phelps and his pack spout shit and try to be intimidating. They then avoid any true confrontation. They are in effect human diarrhea. 7 or 8 fairly large, at least semi-armed NSers should pose an impediment they'd not dare to oppose. In fact, there's a funeral tomorrow. At 1 something. Who's with me? I'm always good at being confrontational.

So it is okay for you to be intollerant, and even go so far as violence, but not okay for them?

So it is okay for you to be intollerant, and even go so far as violence, but not okay for them?

Intolerance is fine by me. In its place. And I've always put forth that there is no problem in this world that cannot be solved through the proper and creative application of brute force and firepower. As such, yes. Being intolerant outside his church, or on the capitol is ok. Being intolerant at funerals is begging to be viciously beaten about the head and neck with a lug wrench. Very different situations, very different reactions.

No. I mean his specific website, www.Ican'tactuallytypetherealaddressherebecauseit'sagainsttherules.com.

And if he died, I'm suer Fox News would be happy to tell us. Or arrested for that matter. They've got a thing against him.

I bet a good number of Fox viewers would have a candlelight vigil for him though should anything happen.

I bet a good number of Fox viewers would have a candlelight vigil for him though should anything happen.

I bet you'ld loose that bet.

unless you are also including a Candlelight vigil that is waiting for him to die...

No. I mean his specific website, www.Ican'tactuallytypetherealaddressherebecauseit'sagainsttherules.com.

It's godhatesamerica.com

We're not denying you the ability to say it, but don't link to the damn thing. You want to cut-n-paste into your own address bar, that's your lookout. We're not going to make it easy for you.

BTW, it was Hack that pointed out it was outlawed, not me.

I bet you'ld loose that bet.

unless you are also including a Candlelight vigil that is waiting for him to die...

My take on human nature is pretty negative. While he is a jackass towards the troops he has other views that could make up for that deficiency. Either way though I'm sure Fox would have fun spinning the story. Talking heads examining every word he said over his entire life... it would be quite sickening to watch.

Hmm... tasteless, eh?

Intolerance is fine by me. In its place. And I've always put forth that there is no problem in this world that cannot be solved through the proper and creative application of brute force and firepower. As such, yes. Being intolerant outside his church, or on the capitol is ok. Being intolerant at funerals is begging to be viciously beaten about the head and neck with a lug wrench. Very different situations, very different reactions.

If it is legal, then it has to be tolerated. Personally, I didn't support the ban on protests for military funerals because it wasn't extended to all funerals. I think that is one place where protests just aren't needed.

I would not be surprised to see something similar to Operation Angel, as seen at Matthew Shepard's funeral

My take on human nature is pretty negative. While he is a jackass towards the troops he has other views that could make up for that deficiency. Either way though I'm sure Fox would have fun spinning the story. Talking heads examining every word he said over his entire life... it would be quite sickening to watch.

or revealing... how much of a hypocrite his really was.

then again, a candle light vigil... never specified what 'kind' of candles...

*hands out ROMAN CANDLES!*

If it is legal, then it has to be tolerated.

I disagree. As a smoker, I'm subject to frequent intolerance, and I'm not entirely convinced it unjustified. There are plenty of people who are intolerant of abortions, and manage to express their displeasure in legal ways.

The law is always behind the Zeitgeist, and the way it catches up is by people expressing their intolerance for bad law in legal ways. Phelps may have the right to protest, but the rest of us certainly have the right to counter-protest, or kick him off our private property, or put up big fences between his idiots and his targets.

No, we don't have to put up with his shit, and we shouldn't.

I disagree. As a smoker, I'm subject to frequent intolerance, and I'm not entirely convinced it unjustified. There are plenty of people who are intolerant of abortions, and manage to express their displeasure in legal ways.

The law is always behind the Zeitgeist, and the way it catches up is by people expressing their intolerance for bad law in legal ways. Phelps may have the right to protest, but the rest of us certainly have the right to counter-protest, or kick him off our private property, or put up big fences between his idiots and his targets.

No, we don't have to put up with his shit, and we shouldn't.

But how do you propose we do so when he is protesting on public property? It's fairly difficult to make the problem go away in a situation like that without dipping into murky anti-First Amendment waters.

On a side note: Dude, seeing you as the last poster in this thread scared the crap out of me. Was wondering what had happened to get it closed...

I can see the next NS meet:

Picketing Westboro Cultist Church.

I can see the next NS meet:

Picketing Westboro Cultist Church.

you can
but i'll find away to get to the US ,then find away to get hold of a tank and drive it through the church

you can
but i'll find away to get to the US ,then find away to get hold of a tank and drive it through the church

I'm not organizing it.

I'm not organizing it.

dam an i was so looking forward to saying dam this not the drive through

I wish the Westborough Baptist Church had picked the Chernobyl Meltdown.

If the media would boycott him, thus giving him no forum for his hatred, he'd disappear soon enough. I hope.

I disagree. As a smoker, I'm subject to frequent intolerance, and I'm not entirely convinced it unjustified. There are plenty of people who are intolerant of abortions, and manage to express their displeasure in legal ways. but it is still, to some extent, tolerated. In other words, no one can kill or arrest or fine you for your smoking.

The law is always behind the Zeitgeist, and the way it catches up is by people expressing their intolerance for bad law in legal ways. Phelps may have the right to protest, but the rest of us certainly have the right to counter-protest, or kick him off our private property, or put up big fences between his idiots and his targets.I'd like to see the Operation Angel thing happen. It worked very well against him in Wyoming.

Too bad VA and the US didn't have the forethought to not just protect military funerals.

No, we don't have to put up with his shit, and we shouldn't.

Agreed. What I take issue with is people who are saying he should be beaten up, etc. Does he deserve it? Maybe. Should it happen? No. That just gives him more power.

but it is still, to some extent, tolerated. In other words, no one can kill or arrest or fine you for your smoking.
in Hawaii... you can be fined for smoking in certain public places.

in Hawaii... you can be fined for smoking in certain public places.

In certain places where it is illegal to smoke, yes. Thats different from legally smoking

If it is legal, then it has to be tolerated. Personally, I didn't support the ban on protests for military funerals because it wasn't extended to all funerals. I think that is one place where protests just aren't needed.

I would not be surprised to see something similar to Operation Angel, as seen at Matthew Shepard's funeral

Simply because the law says you can, does not mean that you should. In this case he is acting outside the bounds of accepted social convention. Funerals are a time to mourn the dead, not have the dead heckled by a hateful bastard. There are limits to free speech, and always will be. Fred Phelps falls well outside those limits.

Also, it is apparently Godhatesfags, the godhatesamerica link failed to perform as desired.

I consider Phelps a test... for us, not him and his.

at this point and time, I just ignore what Phelps is saying/doing and pray for his soul.

praying for his soul is like sadling a dead horse.
it takes time, you are not sure what to say about it, and its completly useless.
That guy has a seat in hell reserved. Problem is, he will live to be a thousand. Only good ones die young.