NationStates Jolt Archive

Nothing new in history I suppose. (Website is most extensive I could find, I heard the story on BBC radio and it tallied with what's in here, but the Beeb haven't got around to getting an article on it up yet, or at least I can't find one).


A group of Israeli women are fighting back against what one called "Taliban-like" Jewish fundamentalists who order women to sit in the back of the bus and to abstain from wearing "immodest" clothing on public bus lines. The women have filed a lawsuit in Israel's high court aimed at reforming bus lines used primarily by ultra-Orthodox Jews. Some of the women see the bus dispute as part of a larger struggle against the growing influence and radicalization of the ultra-Orthodox in Israel.

Writer Naomi Ragen says she did not want to start a revolution from her bus seat or become the Jewish Rosa Parks. She just wanted to get home. An observant, Orthodox Jew, Ragen was on the No. 40 bus line, headed to her house near Jerusalem, when an ultra-Orthodox — or Haredi — man told her to move to the back.

"I was astonished," Ragen recalled. "And I said 'I'm not bothering anyone. You don't have to look at me, sit next to me — but as long as this is a public bus, I will sit where I please, thank you very much.'"

Ragen says the harassment grew worse at every stop. Soon an even more aggressive, bearded ultra-Orthodox man got on and commanded her to move. He weighed about 300 pounds and hovered over her like a sumo wrestler, she says, his long, black frock and wide hat in her face.

"And he started screaming and yelling," she said, telling her to "move to the back of the bus — or else."

"My reaction to that was I looked him in the eye and said 'Look, you show me in the code of Jewish law where it's written that I'm not allowed to sit in this seat and I'll move,'" Ragen said. "'Until then, get out of my face!'"

Ragen may have been the Haredi's worst target: The feisty 57-year-old New York-born novelist and feminist has signed on to a new legal challenge to the de facto gender-segregation on more than 30 public bus lines in Israel, and the restrictions randomly enforced by men and self-styled "modesty patrols."

"I call this the Taliban lines," Ragen said. "They can call it whatever they want. But that, to me, is what they are. They're the Taliban lines and there's no reason we should have them in Israel. I think it's important that women have taken a stand and gone to the Supreme Court with this and said, 'We're angry and we're not going to take it anymore.'"

Ten years ago, as part of a pilot project, two bus lines dedicated to the ultra-Orthodox community were launched.

Today — unofficially — there are more than 30 gender-segregated Haredi bus routes. In many cases these buses are half the price and the only lines running between some cities and neighborhoods. They look like every other public bus: There are no signs telegraphing that they're aimed at the ultra Orthodox.

There are no written or overtly stated rules about gender segregation, either. It's just the way it is, says one rider who asked not to be named during a recent ride on the No. 40 bus in Jerusalem.

As the bus approached a Haredi neighborhood, four schoolgirls got up from their seats and moved to the back of the bus. None wanted to talk to a reporter.

The lawsuit before Israel's high court alleges that several women have been harassed, humiliated, taunted and even physically assaulted on the buses. In December, a Canadian Orthodox Jew was on a non-Haredi bus line en route to the Western Wall, Judaism's holiest site, when she was assaulted by an ultra-Orthodox man for refusing to move to the back of the bus. She has signed on to the lawsuit.

"She was physically hurt; she was beaten very hard," said Orly Erez-Likhowski, an attorney with the Israel Movement for Progressive Judaism, who is leading the legal fight against the Ministry of Transportation and the Egged bus company, a quasi-private line heavily subsidized by the state.

The Ministry refused to comment on tape. A spokesman said only that while the ministry approves new lines, the seating arrangements are left to the bus company.

The bus company released a statement saying they let the ultra Orthodox enforce their own rules. The company says its own surveys show that the general public wants "to respect the Haredi-religious sector that uses public transportation and to let them behave in a way that is convenient to them."

Erez-Likhowski said the suit doesn't aim to shut the bus lines down, but to have them regulated and reformed or to have an equal number of non-Haredi lines added.

"The ministry's attitude is, 'This is none of our business,'" Erez-Likhwoski said. His response? "But it is exactly your business to supervise the public bus companies and this is what you've failed to do over the past years."

Supporters say the legal challenge is part of a wider religious and cultural struggle against what some see as the growing radicalism and political clout of the ultra Orthodox. Last month, senior Haredi rabbis in Jerusalem led a public burning of see-through stockings and other allegedly risque dress.

Before a gay pride march last fall, Haredi men rioted nightly for weeks, forcing organizers to hold a toned-down rally in a heavily guarded stadium instead of a public march.

The Haredi recently launched a short boycott of El Al, Israel's national airline, after the company flew on the Sabbath following a flight bottleneck prompted by a labor strike. The airline quickly caved and pledged never to fly on the Sabbath without approval from ultra-Orthodox rabbis.

And in a major decision last month a committee of leading ultra-Orthodox rabbis here ruled that Haredi women should no longer be allowed to get academic degrees beyond high school.

It's a potentially devastating edict in a Haredi culture where many women are the main family breadwinner while the men study Torah full time.

Ragen says these moves are merely more attempts to control women.

"I think it's shocking," she said. "We have more and more streets with signs on them which say, 'Only women dressed modestly can walk through our streets,' — all of a sudden, our streets are being taken over. What's the next step? People don't want to stand on the same line at the supermarket? Maybe we'll have separate sides of the street and right after that come the veils."

But opponents call the lawsuit an attack on Haredi religious values and culture. Israeli educator and writer Shira Leibowitz-Schmidt, of the Haredi College for Women, says the gender segregation is a natural attempt by the ultra Orthodox to combat what they see as secular Israel's growing permissiveness and the eroticization of public spaces.

"Today in Israel, women go around sometimes as if they're at the beach," she said. "It's really very undignified and it's erotically stimulating and it's also just distracting. And that's a form of coercion — I call that non-religious coercion. I call that coercion of eroticism. That's a much more serious problem: the creeping degradation of the public square."

The de facto Haredi bus restrictions, she says, help men focus on their family — and their wife — and avoid distractions.

The legal challenge to the gender-segregated Haredi bus lines is scheduled to go before Israel's High Court later this year.


linky (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7361060)

Thoughts?

Good for her.

It is the year 2007, and female human beings still have to fight for the right to pick out their own clothes.

Nothing new in history I suppose. (Website is most extensive I could find, I heard the story on BBC radio and it tallied with what's in here, but the Beeb haven't got around to getting an article on it up yet, or at least I can't find one).

Thoughts?

Give that woman a medal.

Can someone remind me what century this is?

It is the year 2007, and female human beings still have to fight for the right to pick out their own clothes.

I gladly give them that right. I just wish they could pick one outfit and go rather then changing several times.....

Demanding that someone move because they have a pussy and a set of tits? Geez, why not paint them black, put them in 1950s Alabama and call them an upstart niger* and be done with it. It's the same thing. It's still discrimination and the ones doing it are going to justify it with weak 'reasoning'.

That's just bloody insane. Why does a woman have to give up her seat just because a man wants it? On any North America bus, streetcar or subway it's first come, first serve and the only time people give up seats is when it's voluntary for those legitimately in need of a seat like the elderly and pregnant women.

* Latin word for 'black' and the originating word for "******", but pronouced with a soft and not a hard "G".

And in a major decision last month a committee of leading ultra-Orthodox rabbis here ruled that Haredi women should no longer be allowed to get academic degrees beyond high school.

It's a potentially devastating edict in a Haredi culture where many women are the main family breadwinner while the men study Torah full time.... :rolleyes:

Who cares if the kids go hungry as long as the women are kept ignorant.

Seriously, it drives me fucking crazy. What is that people of all kinds of cultures and ways of lives are so fucking afraid of that they have to take out their delusions and insecurity on others?

What in the world would we do if we didn't have religious nutjobs to keep us all from getting along?

*sigh*

I have nothing at all against sane religious belief, but it's hard not to wish that the leaders of all major religions would declare that, in order to be really really really really devout and orthodox, one must lock oneself in a little box and never bother other people again.

*sigh*

I have nothing at all against sane religious belief, but it's hard not to wish that the leaders of all major religions would declare that, in order to be really really really really devout and orthodox, one must lock oneself in a little box and never bother other people again.Excellent idea.

1- I'd like to propose a toast to this woman for her courage.

2- I'll link to this thread whoever claims that only the Muslims are ignorant bastards, or backwards, and so on.

3- If Washington were serious about civil rights, they'd threaten sanctions on Israel.

4- If I were the woman that the nutcase dared attack, I'd follow him to his house and set it on fire when I was sure he was the only one inside.

Another reason to lol at overly religious people.

I gladly give them that right. I just wish they could pick one outfit and go rather then changing several times.....I dunno. Tends to look a bit unappealing when they've got cumstains on their dresses, don't it?

Joking aside, your wording makes me want to ask why there's a difference between the word of a court and the word of a religious nutter. If one has the authority to limit our autonomy, why don't the other?

To me it's all rubbish. Either our autonomy is only limited when it infringes on the autonomy of others, or we're not free and should shut up and do what we're told, regardless of what or whose doing the telling. It's also why I dislike concepts like 'rights', 'liberalism' and a host of others. Because they assume we're content to be unfree, living under the rule of some magical 'other people' who're better than we are, and that this is a damn good thing. So good, in fact, that it cannot and should not be debated if actual freedom and responsibility of the individual, might be good ideas.

... I guess what I'm trying to say is; if you need the word of one authority to tell you another authority's full of shit, you're in deep, deep shit.

I dunno. Tends to look a bit unappealing when they've got cumstains on their dresses, don't it?

Joking aside, your wording makes me want to ask why there's a difference between the word of a court and the word of a religious nutter. If one has the authority to limit our autonomy, why don't the other?

To me it's all rubbish. Either our autonomy is only limited when it infringes on the autonomy of others, or we're not free and should shut up and do what we're told, regardless of what or whose doing the telling. It's also why I dislike concepts like 'rights', 'liberalism' and a host of others. Because they assume we're content to be unfree, living under the rule of some magical 'other people' who're better than we are, and that this is a damn good thing. So good, in fact, that it cannot and should not be debated if actual freedom and responsibility of the individual, might be good ideas.

... I guess what I'm trying to say is; if you need the word of one authority to tell you another authority's full of shit, you're in deep, deep shit.

Because we sacrifice some of our autonomy to have a workable society where the values of the majority are applied to all. Having each person decide what level of autonomy they deserve isn't workable.

A bit I noticed:

"But opponents call the lawsuit an attack on Haredi religious values and culture."

Absolutely. Woman-hating "religious values and culture" deserve to be attacked, from every direction, by every single human being with a brain. There should be no let up in the attack.

The Haredi men who throw tantrums over flights on the Sabbath and women walking around the streets should be treated the way you would treat any child who cannot control himself. You place him in a time-out and tell him that he may rejoin his peers once he learns to behave.

1- I'd like to propose a toast to this woman for her courage.

2- I'll link to this thread whoever claims that only the Muslims are ignorant bastards, or backwards, and so on.

3- If Washington were serious about civil rights, they'd threaten sanctions on Israel.

4- If I were the woman that the nutcase dared attack, I'd follow him to his house and set it on fire when I was sure he was the only one inside.

I agree with you on 1-3, but 4... I have to say that is a little over-reactionary. It would be better if you were to defend yourself in public and sucker punch him if he touched you. Nothing is more demeaning to men like that than a woman who can not only fight back but can punch him in a way that makes him sit up and take notice.

I agree with you on 1-3, but 4... I have to say that is a little over-reactionary. It would be better if you were to defend yourself in public and sucker punch him if he touched you. Nothing is more demeaning to men like that than a woman who can not only fight back but can punch him in a way that makes him sit up and take notice.

The man in question was much stronger than her. Which is why the revenge would need to be done in a less direct way, such as arson.

Absolutely. Woman-hating "religious values and culture" deserve to be attacked, from every direction, by every single human being with a brain. There should be no let up in the attack.
Agreed.

Can I claim any moral high ground? No. I just don't like them.

This has been, without a doubt, the single most unanimous discussion I've seen on NSG to date.

Also, proof if proof were necessary that there are idiotic loons in every major religion, and that they should not be taken seriously.

The man in question was much stronger than her. Which is why the revenge would need to be done in a less direct way, such as arson.

I never said to fight fair...

A shot between the legs; right in the testicles.

I never said to fight fair...

A shot between the legs; right in the testicles.

Easier to get some pints of gasoline than a gun.

A bit I noticed:

"But opponents call the lawsuit an attack on Haredi religious values and culture."

Absolutely. Woman-hating "religious values and culture" deserve to be attacked, from every direction, by every single human being with a brain. There should be no let up in the attack.

The Haredi men who throw tantrums over flights on the Sabbath and women walking around the streets should be treated the way you would treat any child who cannot control himself. You place him in a time-out and tell him that he may rejoin his peers once he learns to behave.

Your throne awaits, queen. [/tongue in cheek]

Easier to get some pints of gasoline than a gun.

A shot can also be a well-placed kick or fist ;)

My mum actually ended up on one of these by accident last summer. She said some young man told her to go to the back, but she didn't, and then an older woman got up from the back and sat next to her.

AUGH it makes me SO angry. It's a PUBLIC bus company. Everyone's taxes go into subsidizing it - in fact, probably most of those taxes are from secular and reasonable religious people - not the ultra-orthodox community which is poverty-ridden and barely works.

The point about denying haredi women higher education is particularly disturbing. Indeed, their husbands and billions of children rely almost entirely on the state and private donations to survive, plus whatever they can make working. It's so completely inequitable. Nothing could be more disrespectful than to 1) have an entire segment of siciety propped up by everyone else for no reason, and 2) to let them USE those public resources to take their bigotry, insecurity, and fear out on women.

This has been, without a doubt, the single most unanimous discussion I've seen on NSG to date.

Has Soviestan posted yet? :p

Agreed.

Can I claim any moral high ground? No. I just don't like them.
Fuck that, I can claim moral high ground. They're a bunch of sexist jackasses who don't even have the guts to hate women without invoking a magical invisible Daddy figure who can totally beat you up. (Yeah-huh, he can so! Your God is totally a fag!)

They want to chase women out of PUBLIC spaces for the crime of being female. They want to literally force women to the back of the bus. That gives me the moral high ground right there, because I'm not advocating that men be treated as subhumans simply because they are male.

A shot can also be a well-placed kick or fist ;)

Exactly. If you're sitting, you can still punch...

A shot can also be a well-placed kick or fist ;)

What about grabbing his balls and ripping them off? I mean, assuming adequate strenght.

They want to chase women out of PUBLIC spaces for the crime of being female. They want to literally force women to the back of the bus. That gives me the moral high ground right there, because I'm not advocating that men be treated as subhumans simply because they are male.

And we like you for that, really :) I'll claim high ground, too, if you move a bit (not to the back, though).

This is also interesting:

And in a major decision last month a committee of leading ultra-Orthodox rabbis here ruled that Haredi women should no longer be allowed to get academic degrees beyond high school.
...
"Today in Israel, women go around sometimes as if they're at the beach," she said. "It's really very undignified and it's erotically stimulating and it's also just distracting. And that's a form of coercion — I call that non-religious coercion. I call that coercion of eroticism. That's a much more serious problem: the creeping degradation of the public square."


While I'm aware this response doesn't deal with the academic degree thing, I wonder how she would explain that - are women studying forcing distracting their professors? Also, is she aware she now has a job at a college that would be closed, and wouldn't be able to have anyway because you can't work at colleges if you only have highschool degrees?

While I'm aware this response doesn't deal with the academic degree thing, I wonder how she would explain that - are women studying forcing distracting their professors? Also, is she aware she now has a job at a college that would be closed, and wouldn't be able to have anyway because you can't work at colleges if you only have highschool degrees?

Meh. They simply want to keep women ignorant, thus easier to hold down. Let's hope their kind dies out soon.

Meh. They simply want to keep women ignorant, thus easier to hold down. Let's hope their kind dies out soon.

Not when Israel keeps taking care of them like they are.

Not when Israel keeps taking care of them like they are.

Wait, what's the difference between Israel and Iran again? Let's see: Both are theocratic pseudo-democracies, both have nukes, both are violent...

My God! I found out why Israel is friends with the US and Iran isn't!!!

Iranians wear the wrong kind of funny hat!!!

Because we sacrifice some of our autonomy to have a workable society where the values of the majority are applied to all. Having each person decide what level of autonomy they deserve isn't workable.

Why not?

It is the year 2007, and female human beings still have to fight for the right to pick out their own clothes.

As far as we've come - and we've come quite aways - this is sad. And sickening, since Judaism is also the religion that produced Tikkun Olan. This lady deserves a medal.

Ah the benefits of faith based communities...

Fuck that, I can claim moral high ground. They're a bunch of sexist jackasses who don't even have the guts to hate women without invoking a magical invisible Daddy figure who can totally beat you up. (Yeah-huh, he can so! Your God is totally a fag!)

They want to chase women out of PUBLIC spaces for the crime of being female. They want to literally force women to the back of the bus. That gives me the moral high ground right there, because I'm not advocating that men be treated as subhumans simply because they are male.

rAmen, sister!

Fuck that, I can claim moral high ground. They're a bunch of sexist jackasses who don't even have the guts to hate women without invoking a magical invisible Daddy figure who can totally beat you up. (Yeah-huh, he can so! Your God is totally a fag!)

They want to chase women out of PUBLIC spaces for the crime of being female. They want to literally force women to the back of the bus. That gives me the moral high ground right there, because I'm not advocating that men be treated as subhumans simply because they are male.
But I can't rationally demonstrate that my position is more morally sound than theirs, so I'm not going to argue on those grounds.

But I still oppose them.

rAmen, sister!

rAmen ftw.

Why not?

Because by the virtue of being near other people means that we affect them. Someone may wish never to see scantily clad women but some women may wish to be scantily clad and be seen as such, thereby denying what the other person sees as their right. So commonly agreed restrictions are necessary.

Because by the virtue of being near other people means that we affect them. Someone may wish never to see scantily clad women but some women may wish to be scantily clad and be seen as such, thereby denying what the other person sees as their right. So commonly agreed restrictions are necessary.
I agree. The first step should be to clarify something:

There is no "right" to not see scantily clad women (or men). There is also no "right" to not see women sitting at the front of the bus. There is, however, a universal right to get the fuck over yourself and get on with your damn life.

I agree. The first step should be to clarify something:

There is no "right" to not see scantily clad women (or men). There is also no "right" to not see women sitting at the front of the bus. There is, however, a universal right to get the fuck over yourself and get on with your damn life.

This is one of those weird moments when being able to look at scantily clad women and feminism coincide.

Is it bad if I thought this was about women dressing scantily to protest people who think they should be (what the crazy people say is) modest.

Because by the virtue of being near other people means that we affect them. Someone may wish never to see scantily clad women but some women may wish to be scantily clad and be seen as such, thereby denying what the other person sees as their right. So commonly agreed restrictions are necessary.

That would infer that one has a right to decide what I see. Suppose I want to see scantily clad women. Wouldn't his desire to not see them interfere with my rights?

That would infer that one has a right to decide what I see. Suppose I want to see scantily clad women. Wouldn't his desire to not see them interfere with my rights?

Yes, the inherent inteference makes a society where everyone decides what their level of autonomy/rights are unworkable.

Yes, the inherent inteference makes a society where everyone decides what their level of autonomy/rights are unworkable.

Or perhaps the right to decide what one does and doesn't see or hear doesn't exist. Perhaps only the right to say or do does.

Or perhaps the right to decide what one does and doesn't see or hear doesn't exist. Perhaps only the right to say or do does.

Some would say that it's a right, some would say it isn't; the democratic process is used to judge what is and isn't acceptable within a society. It's a construct to set down 'reasonable' restrictions on people's autonomy in the interests of improved living for all.

Some would say that it's a right, some would say it isn't; the democratic process is used to judge what is and isn't acceptable within a society.
Thus leading to majority tyranny.

Meh. Don't live in Jerusalem then. That entire city is just a magnet for close-minded, interferring morons who are trying to prove a point by living there.

Meh. Don't live in Jerusalem then. That entire city is just a magnet for close-minded, interferring morons who are trying to prove a point by living there.

Are you actually suggesting that women who don't like being told to move to the back of the bus move out of their homes? They have just as much a right to ride those buses as anyone else. Why the hell should they be intimidated? When this happened in Montgomery, there was a strike. People risked their lives to stand up for what was right. Hell, women died in England for the right to vote. The proper reaction to seeing an injustice is to fight it, not move away.

Wait, what's the difference between Israel and Iran again? Let's see: Both are theocratic pseudo-democracies, both have nukes, both are violent...

My God! I found out why Israel is friends with the US and Iran isn't!!!

Iranians wear the wrong kind of funny hat!!!

You're telling me Israel is a pseudo-democracy? A country where 85% of the population votes (more than the US btw) is a pseudo-democracy????????

There are many bad things about Israel (ignorant frums being one of them) but their democracy is fine thank you very much. (And yes Palestinians probably aren't as well represented as they should be but neither are minorities in other democracies)

Are you actually suggesting that women who don't like being told to move to the back of the bus move out of their homes? They have just as much a right to ride those buses as anyone else. Why the hell should they be intimidated? When this happened in Montgomery, there was a strike. People risked their lives to stand up for what was right. Hell, women died in England for the right to vote. The proper reaction to seeing an injustice is to fight it, not move away.

Fighting injustice in Jerusalem is a waste of effort. For every individual who wants to turn it into a progressive component of a modern liberal society, there are a dozen more who want to forge it into the capital of their own personal evil empire. Without Injustice, Jerusalem wouldn't be Jerusalem.

Fighting injustice in Jerusalem is a waste of effort. For every individual who wants to turn it into a progressive component of a modern liberal society, there are a dozen more who want to forge it into the capital of their own personal evil empire. Without Injustice, Jerusalem wouldn't be Jerusalem.

They said the same damn thing about Montgomery. Hell, they said the same damn thing about fighting Jim Crow in the South. My dad spent the weekend in jail because he thought helping black people register to vote was worth fighting for. Did he waste his effort?

You're telling me Israel is a pseudo-democracy? A country where 85% of the population votes (more than the US btw) is a pseudo-democracy????????

There are many bad things about Israel (ignorant frums being one of them) but their democracy is fine thank you very much. (And yes Palestinians probably aren't as well represented as they should be but neither are minorities in other democracies)

I'm not considering it a democracy until women don't have to go to the friggin' SUPREME COURT to try and have their rights preserved, as if they were in South Africa, 1970! I'm Brazilian, BTW, and, no, I don't think the US was a democracy per se in the 50's.

They said the same damn thing about Montgomery. Hell, they said the same damn thing about fighting Jim Crow in the South. My dad spent the weekend in jail because he thought helping black people register to vote was worth fighting for. Did he waste his effort?

I know he has no idea who I am, and I know it doesn't matter, but tell your father I (white Brazilian) admire him. ;)

I know he has no idea who I am, and I know it doesn't matter, but tell your father I (white Brazilian) admire him. ;)

He keeps trying to say it was nothing, he and his friends got drunk and went down South because they thought it might be fun. But I still say he knew how people down there felt about blacks, his Southern mother having told him more than once to 'shut that damn n***** music down!' (he was into rock and roll). It took balls to do what he did.

He keeps trying to say it was nothing, he and his friends got drunk and went down South because they thought it might be fun. But I still say he knew how people down there felt about blacks, his Southern mother having told him more than once to 'shut that damn n***** music down!' (he was into rock and roll). It took balls to do what he did.

Tell him you're pretty sure Lincoln also thought it was "nothing". ;)

Tell him you're pretty sure Lincoln also thought it was "nothing". ;)

I try, I try. When he was younger, and the family was driving down to visit hers in Georgia, he used to drink from the colored fountains, just to torque her off. She's calmed down quite a bit since my brother brought a lovely young lady from Gambia home, though. Knowing that not a single one of us would ever talk to her again if she said word one against my future sister-in-law might have helped.

I'm not considering it a democracy until women don't have to go to the friggin' SUPREME COURT to try and have their rights preserved, as if they were in South Africa, 1970! I'm Brazilian, BTW, and, no, I don't think the US was a democracy per se in the 50's.

Just to let you know, Israel was the second nation to elect a female head of state in modern times.

Israel is very much a democracy. Jews, Muslims, women, and Christians each have an equal vote. You are just a freaking moron.

I try, I try. When he was younger, and the family was driving down to visit hers in Georgia, he used to drink from the colored fountains, just to torque her off. She's calmed down quite a bit since my brother brought a lovely young lady from Gambia home, though. Knowing that not a single one of us would ever talk to her again if she said word one against my future sister-in-law might have helped.

Nice! Your father is Chaotic Good! :D

(Yes, that's a compliment, in case you don't play D&D) ;)

*sigh*

I have nothing at all against sane religious belief, but it's hard not to wish that the leaders of all major religions would declare that, in order to be really really really really devout and orthodox, one must lock oneself in a little box and never bother other people again.

I have a better idea. Put them in boxes and ship them to Afghanistan Taliban camps. Then they can argue about who oppresses who's womenfolk until they drop dead.

Problem solved.

I dunno. Tends to look a bit unappealing when they've got cumstains on their dresses, don't it?

Joking aside, your wording makes me want to ask why there's a difference between the word of a court and the word of a religious nutter. If one has the authority to limit our autonomy, why don't the other?

Cause the religious nutter resorts to violence to force OTHER people to comply to his standards.

Otherwise, we might as well go ho hum at religiously motivated killings eh?

Just to let you know, Israel was the second nation to elect a female head of state in modern times.

Israel is very much a democracy. Jews, Muslims, women, and Christians each have an equal vote. You are just a freaking moron.

In that case, would you care to explain why are women in Israel being treated just like women in Iran? Y'know, as opposed to insulting me in order to try and make a semblance of a point (or a fool of yourself).

People vote in Iran. People vote in Israel. The US claim Israel is a democracy. The US claim Iran isn't one. Women put up with this kind of crap in Israel. Women put up with this kind of crap in Iran. Pray tell, what's the difference between Israel and Iran? The name of Israel has more letters?

Because by the virtue of being near other people means that we affect them. Someone may wish never to see scantily clad women but some women may wish to be scantily clad and be seen as such, thereby denying what the other person sees as their right. So commonly agreed restrictions are necessary.

You don't have a right to be not offended.

You do however, have a right not to be coerced into doing things you don't want.

Solution? Look at the ground.

Proving once again that religions taken to extremes fucking suck.


Although some would argue orthodox and conservative interpretations of many religious texts don't lend themselves to fun.

In that case, would you care to explain why are women in Israel being treated just like women in Iran? Y'know, as opposed to insulting me in order to try and make a semblance of a point (or a fool of yourself).

People vote in Iran. People vote in Israel. The US claim Israel is a democracy. The US claim Iran isn't one. Women put up with this kind of crap in Israel. Women put up with this kind of crap in Iran. Pray tell, what's the difference between Israel and Iran? The name of Israel has more letters?

Israel is the country of a courageous, oppressed and peaceful people, while Iran is the main hellpit that spawns all of t3h 3b1l |\/|05l3|\/|5.

In that case, would you care to explain why are women in Israel being treated just like women in Iran? Y'know, as opposed to insulting me in order to try and make a semblance of a point (or a fool of yourself).

People vote in Iran. People vote in Israel. The US claim Israel is a democracy. The US claim Iran isn't one. Women put up with this kind of crap in Israel. Women put up with this kind of crap in Iran. Pray tell, what's the difference between Israel and Iran? The name of Israel has more letters?

Just to clarify, Iran isnt a democracy. People vote for the president, not the Supreme Leader or the mullahs, who control everything.

Just to let you know, Israel was the second nation to elect a female head of state in modern times.

Israel is very much a democracy. Jews, Muslims, women, and Christians each have an equal vote. You are just a freaking moron.

And Pakistan had a female PM. That doesn't make it a paragon of virtue.

Nice! Your father is Chaotic Good! :D

(Yes, that's a compliment, in case you don't play D&D) ;)

Wow... Cool... He won't get the compliment, but I do! Tho I do consider myself more chaotic than he, being a discordian and all.

I think it's disgusting, but am I the only one who thinks, nay, KNOWS, that if this thread was about muslims instead, people would be saying shit like "It's their culture, stop being racist"? People are such hypocrites.

Man, this thread is boring! I think it needs this!
http://adweek.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/bunny1.jpg

I think it's disgusting, but am I the only one who thinks, nay, KNOWS, that if this thread was about muslims instead, people would be saying shit like "It's their culture, stop being racist"? People are such hypocrites.

No. I dont think so. Except Soviestan. He's the only one I've seen.

I'm not considering it a democracy until women don't have to go to the friggin' SUPREME COURT to try and have their rights preserved, as if they were in South Africa, 1970! I'm Brazilian, BTW, and, no, I don't think the US was a democracy per se in the 50's.

Buddy, you need to clear some things up.
For one, all democracy means is that people can vote for stuff.
That's it.
It says nothing about which people, even.
A country where only men over 65 get to vote is still a democracy.
Also, the US and Israel are both still not democracies, they're both republics.
Third, Israel's doing pretty good in civil rights considering that it's a natural fundy magnet. It's about US level in democracy, but it should be Saudi Arabia level by now. Actually, worse then that. It's holy to three religions, SA is only holy to one.

Buddy, you need to clear some things up.
For one, all democracy means is that people can vote for stuff.
That's it.
It says nothing about which people, even.
A country where only men over 65 get to vote is still a democracy.

Democracy implies ALL people. If it were only, say, men, then that would be a... semidemocracy, or something like that.

Also, the US and Israel are both still not democracies, they're both republics.

Two different things. One's a system of government, the other's a system of governance. A country can be both.

In that case, would you care to explain why are women in Israel being treated just like women in Iran? Y'know, as opposed to insulting me in order to try and make a semblance of a point (or a fool of yourself).

People vote in Iran. People vote in Israel. The US claim Israel is a democracy. The US claim Iran isn't one. Women put up with this kind of crap in Israel. Women put up with this kind of crap in Iran. Pray tell, what's the difference between Israel and Iran? The name of Israel has more letters?

Human Rights in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel)
Human Rights in Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran)
Read those two links.
Ya see, Israel has a human rights record between the US and Sweden, whereas Iran has a human rights record between Saudi Arabia and Morocco.
And THAT is the difference between Israel and Iran.

Democracy implies ALL people. If it were only, say, men, then that would be a... semidemocracy, or something like that.



Two different things. One's a system of government, the other's a system of governance. A country can be both.

Democracy=rule by the people. It doesn't matter how many people. As long as it's not the people currently in power it's still a democracy.
And there is no such thing as a semidemocracy.

And I'll give you your second point.

I think it's disgusting, but am I the only one who thinks, nay, KNOWS, that if this thread was about muslims instead, people would be saying shit like "It's their culture, stop being racist"? People are such hypocrites.

Ok, I'm sick of people accusing people of defending muslims.
You make about 50 posts saying everyone defends muslims all the time that per 1 post actually defending muslims.
And I realize that sounded funny, especially to Soviestan, but I couldn't think of a better word then defending muslims.

But I have an idea. When Soviestan gets here, you know he's gonna denounce this, so let's find some post of his where he defended something like this and catch him in a hypocracy.
And again, I realize I just ranted about this very thing. And I also realise that I'm now a hypocrite trying to catch a hypocrite.

Ya see, Israel has a human rights record between the US and Sweden, whereas Iran has a human rights record between Saudi Arabia and Morocco.
And THAT is the difference between Israel and Iran.

Does it include the destruction of Palestinian land?

Regardless, if the women have to beg the Supreme Court to crack down on fundies, Israel needs some serious reforms! And the US government IS hypocritical when it doesn't criticize the same things happening in two different nations, because ONE of them is populated by people that wear the wrong kind of funny hat!

I think it's disgusting, but am I the only one who thinks, nay, KNOWS, that if this thread was about muslims instead, people would be saying shit like "It's their culture, stop being racist"? People are such hypocrites.

Gee, that's funny, I guess you didn't see the several threads in which I, and, indeed, several others, condemned one or another behavior that was being undertaken by supposed muslims in given countries. Y'know, because it wasn't in your interest.

However, I'm still waiting to hear YOU go "all jews are ebul" due to the actions of a few morons that misinterpret the Torah exactly the same way you go "all moslems are ebul" whenever you get anything remotely like a chance. No one here is saying "all jews are evil", like YOU say about muslims when people that are sometimes less empowered in their countries than these fundies are in Israel screw up in the name of religion.

Are we done now or do you want to make more of a fool of yourself?

You make about 50 posts saying everyone defends muslims all the time that per 1 post actually defending muslims.

Bearing in mind that only Soviestan is crazy (or trolling) enough to actually defend the action of the Heinous Moslems R Ebul Example Of The Week, as opposed to the great majority of people that point out the obvious fact that not all muslims are like this (much like, yes, I'm well aware that these orthodox nutcases are few and far between. I wish TPF would be aware of that about fundamentalist muslims, too, it would save him so much humiliation).

Edit: Put some quote-unquote on "accusing" and it'll make it clear that you do not view it as something to be accused, but TPF does, Sheni.

Thus leading to majority tyranny.

Not necessarily. And any system of governance has its flaws, because it has to deal with humans.

Human Rights in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel)
Human Rights in Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran)
Read those two links.
Ya see, Israel has a human rights record between the US and Sweden, whereas Iran has a human rights record between Saudi Arabia and Morocco.
And THAT is the difference between Israel and Iran.


While thats entirely true, the real difference between the two is in the number of people who think that the light shines out of those countries asses.

You're telling me Israel is a pseudo-democracy? A country where 85% of the population votes (more than the US btw) is a pseudo-democracy????????

There are many bad things about Israel (ignorant frums being one of them) but their democracy is fine thank you very much. (And yes Palestinians probably aren't as well represented as they should be but neither are minorities in other democracies)

Dude...

Tyranny By Majority is NOT democracy. It was originally, but not anymore.

Give that woman a medal.
And put those men in herem (excommunication).

That is a major desecration of the Name - the only sin which can only be atoned for through death.

Nothing new in history I suppose. (Website is most extensive I could find, I heard the story on BBC radio and it tallied with what's in here, but the Beeb haven't got around to getting an article on it up yet, or at least I can't find one).


linky (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7361060)

Thoughts?

Are these particular Orthodox men so pathetically weak that the mere presence of a woman in their midst is a reason for violence?

And I'd fucking LOVE that set up -- "You work and raise kids and take care of the house and entertain my friends while I study for the rest of my life."

Wait, what's the difference between Israel and Iran again? Let's see: Both are theocratic pseudo-democracies, both have nukes, both are violent...

My God! I found out why Israel is friends with the US and Iran isn't!!!

Iranians wear the wrong kind of funny hat!!!

okay let me clear up some things...
Israel is deffinitely not a theocracy nor a theocratic 'pseudo-demoracy.' The government of Israel is secular and most of them dislike the religious population (that's a fact!).

And about this woman... well, I think she's right. Woman shouldn't be forced to sit in back of the bus. I'm saying this, because I firmly believe that, and yes, I am an orthodox Jew, or an 'ultra-orthodox' Jew if you want to name it like that. A Chareidi Jew. I used to live in Jerusalem (at the moment I'm in another country). But last week I was still in Jerusalem. It's sad that certain Chareidi people are like this. I mean, beating up a woman who only wants to sit in the bus, how low can you get.

I also heard of this story, last december. My rabbi (also Hareidi) told me about this. He said that he couldn't understand this hareidi people. "Haven't they studied the words of chazal (= our sages, of blessed memory)" he told me. "The Jewish woman is the queen of the house, every shabbos (Sabbath) we sing praises upon her." But unfortunately there're still some nutcases...

Dude...

Tyranny By Majority is NOT democracy. It was originally, but not anymore.

It's not tyranny by majority. 85% of citiznes in Israel vote, this includes Arabs, Christians, Druze, Bedoins, and whoever else.

Not all of them but a lot do. The Arab always get about 4 or 5 seats in the knesset.

okay let me clear up some things...
Israel is deffinitely not a theocracy nor a theocratic 'pseudo-demoracy.' The government of Israel is secular and most of them dislike the religious population (that's a fact!).

And about this woman... well, I think she's right. Woman shouldn't be forced to sit in back of the bus. I'm saying this, because I firmly believe that, and yes, I am an orthodox Jew, or an 'ultra-orthodox' Jew if you want to name it like that. A Chareidi Jew. I used to live in Jerusalem (at the moment I'm in another country). But last week I was still in Jerusalem. It's sad that certain Chareidi people are like this. I mean, beating up a woman who only wants to sit in the bus, how low can you get.

I also heard of this story, last december. My rabbi (also Hareidi) told me about this. He said that he couldn't understand this hareidi people. "Haven't they studied the words of chazal (= our sages, of blessed memory)" he told me. "The Jewish woman is the queen of the house, every shabbos (Sabbath) we sing praises upon her." But unfortunately there're still some nutcases...

The point remains: Why does the US attack a state that has some shit (Iran) and ally itself with a state that has some shit (Israel)? Minding that many Iranians despise their own fundies. I mean, again, besides the difference in funny hats, what IS it that makes Iranians evil and Israelis good when they increasingly show themselves to be very much alike?

Another reason to lol at overly religious people.

Please don't confuse religious with bigoted and close-minded. Speaking as a devout Catholic, I'm for Gay Rights, Pro-Choice, and for limited Affirmative Action.

Please, PLEASE Don't confuse the two.


EDIT/ADDITION:
Simple reason why Iran is a friend and Israel isn't:

Iran's government is Theocratic de facto, and led by crazies to boot. If the Iranian people despise their Government, then they should damn well speak up. Oh Wait, that's right-THEY CAN'T, at least not without fear of their village turning into a new Carthage.

Israel's government is a secular democratic-republic, with free speech, freedom of religion, etc. Saying that the Chareidi people are typical of Israel is like saying that the idiot who is picketing the VT funerals is typical of the American Populous. Entirely False.

The point remains: Why does the US attack a state that has some shit (Iran) and ally itself with a state that has some shit (Israel)? Minding that many Iranians despise their own fundies. I mean, again, besides the difference in funny hats, what IS it that makes Iranians evil and Israelis good when they increasingly show themselves to be very much alike?
Why does the point remain? Compared to Iran, Israel has absolutely no shit at all. The USA should have some allies in the region, and regardless of what you think of Israel it has the least shit in the Middle East.

The point remains: Why does the US attack a state that has some shit (Iran) and ally itself with a state that has some shit (Israel)? Minding that many Iranians despise their own fundies.

Because Iran is dictated by those fundies.

Because Iran is dictated by those fundies.

As opposed to the country in which women have to petition for the right not to be harassed in the Supreme Court?

Why does the point remain? Compared to Iran, Israel has absolutely no shit at all. The USA should have some allies in the region, and regardless of what you think of Israel it has the least shit in the Middle East.

1- The idea that Israel has "the least shit" is HIGHLY debatable.

2- Compared to Iran, Saudi Arabia has WAY MORE shit, and is called an ally by the US. So you don't get to claim that this is the criteria.

1- The idea that Israel has "the least shit" is HIGHLY debatable.

2- Compared to Iran, Saudi Arabia has WAY MORE shit, and is called an ally by the US. So you don't get to claim that this is the criteria.
Israel has the highest Human Developement Index, the highest GDP/capita (IIRC), the most rights and freedoms, the only one that has gay rights, etc. etc.

I'm not claiming that the USA's system of deciding who it allies with is anything less than idiotic. I'm saying that Israel is at least somewhat 'better' than Iran.

Israel has the highest Human Developement Index, the highest GDP/capita (IIRC), the most rights and freedoms, the only one that has gay rights, etc. etc.

I'm not claiming that the USA's system of deciding who it allies with is anything less than idiotic. I'm saying that Israel is at least somewhat 'better' than Iran.

Still, if the US are so interested in civil rights, they SHOULD tell Israel to get its act together and stop this kind of shit. And by "shit" I also mean "attacking Palestinian civilians", but who's counting?

Some would say that it's a right, some would say it isn't; the democratic process is used to judge what is and isn't acceptable within a society. It's a construct to set down 'reasonable' restrictions on people's autonomy in the interests of improved living for all.

Sounds pretty socialist to me. *nod*

Just to let you know, Israel was the second nation to elect a female head of state in modern times.

Israel is very much a democracy. Jews, Muslims, women, and Christians each have an equal vote. You are just a freaking moron.

Except if you want to run on the platform of disolving the state of Israel, then you're not allowed to stand in elections. A democracy doesn't impose rules on the platforms you can and can't run on, the point is that the people are allowed to decide.

Israel has the highest Human Developement Index, the highest GDP/capita (IIRC), the most rights and freedoms, the only one that has gay rights, etc. etc.


Its also the one dedicated to maintaining one religous/ethnic groups dominance within its borders, and for the last 40 years has been colonising the occupied territories against the wishes of those areas populations, running what is effectively a two-tier apartheid society there. Thus, they are not "just like us" and are in many ways as bad as "them".

The unilateral support of the US has directly and/or indirectly contributed to the increase of everything from Islamic fundamentalism to anti-semitism. Surely its time to realise that it does nobody any favours.

Its also the one dedicated to maintaining one religous/ethnic groups dominance within its borders, and for the last 40 years has been colonising the occupied territories against the wishes of those areas populations, running what is effectively a two-tier apartheid society there. Thus, they are not "just like us" and are in many ways as bad as "them".

The unilateral support of the US has directly and/or indirectly contributed to the increase of everything from Islamic fundamentalism to anti-semitism. Surely its time to realise that it does nobody any favours.
You mean, just like every other Middle Eastern country. Except that Israel has several Arabic members of Parliament and its citizens have freedom of religion. Whoops. Not like every other Middle Eastern country.

I do agree that Israel definitely needs to get its shit in order with regards to both this and the Palestinian situation. However, I believe it's rather unfair to compare Israel to Iran. And also that it has a right to exist blah blah blah. But I'll refrain from debating the morals of Israel further lest it draw the wrath of UB or AP.

You mean, just like every other Middle Eastern country. Except that Israel has several Arabic members of Parliament and its citizens have freedom of religion. Whoops. Not like every other Middle Eastern country.


O Goody. And don't mention whatever you do the assasinations, martial law, "settler only" roads and areas of the occupied territories. In its way its every bit as bad as the rest of them. The difference is, as I said earlier, that there are far more in the west ready to state that their shit doesnt smell.

However, I believe it's rather unfair to compare Israel to Iran. And also that it has a right to exist blah blah blah. But I'll refrain from debating the morals of Israel further lest it draw the wrath of UB or AP.It's the same shit, the Israeli wrapping's just purdier. Everything from flat rental to burial spots involves institutionalised segregation. That it's not 'officially endorsed policy' doesn't mean it's any less real than in the other sad ME shitholes.
If anything, you should give Saudi Arabia points for honesty. Those fuckers, at least, are completely unashamed of their discriminatory practices.

Because Iran is dictated by those fundies.

If I remember rightly, then the Israeli fundies I mentioned in the OP hold the balance of power in the knesset (or definitely used to, I'm not so up to date as I used to be) and the other parties had to pander to them to form a governing coalition.

If I remember rightly, then the Israeli fundies I mentioned in the OP hold the balance of power in the knesset (or definitely used to, I'm not so up to date as I used to be) and the other parties had to pander to them to form a governing coalition.
They don't hold the balance of power, but they are very influential, since Israeli governments are almost all coalitions, and you frequently need at least one religious party to gain a majority. Consequently, you have to pander to that party's wishes.

They don't hold the balance of power, but they are very influential, since Israeli governments are almost all coalitions, and you frequently need at least one religious party to gain a majority. Consequently, you have to pander to that party's wishes.

See the difference now? In Iran, crazy fundies are in the power. In Israel they just hold sway over it.

Apples and... green apples.

The difference is that in Israel, they are one group that holds significant influence - and competes with other, larger groups (the main political parties, including the secular Labor party). In Iran, the fundies reign supreme.

If anything if an attractive girl in morderatly revealing clothes was on the boss I would want them to sit next to me.:D

The difference is that in Israel, they are one group that holds significant influence - and competes with other, larger groups (the main political parties, including the secular Labor party). In Iran, the fundies reign supreme.

Yet people that want reforms are increasingly louder in Iran as well.

And I repeat: Apples and green apples.