NationStates Jolt Archive

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

I would have to ask how old you are.

If you are old enough to live alone, your parents are going to have to accept that you are an adult who can make their own decisions... and, if it isn't this issue - it will be one - so you might as well face them on this one.

On the other hand - if you are still a minor or must remain at home, I'd say go to church and say blessings or whatever it is they want you to do. They can make you do the external manifestations, but they can't change your heart.

If you are agnostic - what do you mean by that? Do you mean the true meaning of agnostic - you just don't KNOW if it is possible to know for sure if god exists? Or - do you doubt the existence of god, but not enough to assert there IS no god.

If the latter - they are right - you are an atheist. (Implicit Atheist = lack of faith in existence of 'god').

I would have to ask how old you are.

If you are old enough to live alone, your parents are going to have to accept that you are an adult who can make their own decisions... and, if it isn't this issue - it will be one - so you might as well face them on this one.

On the other hand - if you are still a minor or must remain at home, I'd say go to church and say blessings or whatever it is they want you to do. They can make you do the external manifestations, but they can't change your heart.

If you are agnostic - what do you mean by that? Do you mean the true meaning of agnostic - you just don't KNOW if it is possible to know for sure if god exists? Or - do you doubt the existence of god, but not enough to assert there IS no god.

If the latter - they are right - you are an atheist. (Implicit Atheist = lack of faith in existence of 'god').

I am 15 years old.

I am agnostic in that I don't believe that the exsistance of god can be known. I have no faith in faith really. On the one hand, I do not believe entirely in the concept of a holy entity, on the other, I am not at the point where I can say 'there is no god'.

What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.
I can't offer you any more assistance than my personal choices. Remain open to discussion, consideration and experience, and do not be afraid to attend church simply because they are saying things that you do not agree with, but never stop questioning and stand up for your own concerns in regular discussion on these issues. And, if your parents have meta-issues concerning your queries and uncertainty, discuss those with them too. Don't be confrontational, just talk honestly and openly with them. If, after all that, you continue to be on opposite sides, accept that fact for now.

proudly agnostic, meet profoundly indifferent.

stand up for your beliefs!...chicks dig that*shrug*

either that or spend the rest of your life knowing your going to hell for an eternity of suffering at the same time persecuting gays and other religions :)

stand up for your beliefs!...chicks dig that*shrug*

either that or spend the rest of your life knowing your going to hell for an eternity of suffering at the same time persecuting gays and other religions :)

Its cold where I live, so at least I will be comfortable in hell :)

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

Fake it. Pretend to be a Catholic until you leave home.

Fake it. Pretend to be a Catholic until you leave home.

Could work...

I don't really understand the "Proud X" thing, except where "X" is some achievement; why be proud of your religion, race or sexuality, for instance? I can see why you wouldn't want to be ashamed of them, but where does the pride come from?

You could be proud of running a mile in four minutes, or writing a clone of Space Invaders, or climbing a mountain; these things are notable achievements. But saying "I don't think we can know if god(s) exist" isn't, surely?

I'm not proud that I'm white; my parents are too, it's no great surprise.

I'm not proud that I assert that no gods actually exist, but I'm not ashamed to do it either.

Maybe I should be proud that the evil, godless liberal media haven't turned me into a rampant poofter*, but I'm not.

So, um, why?

*A joke! No, really! No, please, not there! Aaar-

When I was 13 I became an atheist. And I had to fight my parents for it.

Now, be a man and stand for your beliefs. Your parents will bother you for a time, but if you stand for what you believe they will end up respecting you.

Well, in the end, it doesnt matter much anyway.

hmmm youre 15. your parents still feel the need to control you...

i guess it depends on how unpleasant you are willing to let your life get.

they can "make" you go to church and "make" you go to classes but they cant force you to believe. its not possible.

so you have a choice of making nice, obeying your parents and keeping your agnosticism to yourself or being defiant and refusing to participate in a charade.

only you can decide if throwing your agnoticism in their face is worth the crap you are going to have to take for doing it.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.
It really depends on what kind of relationship you have with your family, and what kind of relationship you want to have with them in the future.

Myself, I wouldn't want to have any kind of relationship with people who cannot respect my personal beliefs about religion. Such people are toxic. For me, associating with people who want to force me to be Catholic would be no different than associating with people who want to force me to be racist. I don't believe that is appropriate, respectful, or loving behavior, and I don't believe it would be good for me to spend time around people who would treat me that way.

However, I also am absolutely nuts about my parents, and I'm trying to imagine what I would do if (somehow) they decided to do something like what your family is doing to you. I would not stop loving my parents, I know that much. I would not want to lose them. I wonder if I would be prepared to pay lip service to their beliefs in order to stay close to them. I might. Of course, doing so would destroy our relationship anyhow, and I probably would eventually have no more reason to care about preserving it, so I'd end up telling them off and leaving.

I don't really understand the "Proud X" thing, except where "X" is some achievement; why be proud of your religion, race or sexuality, for instance? I can see why you wouldn't want to be ashamed of them, but where does the pride come from?

Breaking through indoctrination is a pretty impressive achievement.
Note that this does not mean that the OP should be ashamed if he/she ever decides to return to his/her original faith, because that would be the result of a conscious decision. Which is vastly different from being brainwashed into believing.

When I was 13 I became an atheist. And I had to fight my parents for it.

Now, be a man and stand for your beliefs. Your parents will bother you for a time, but if you stand for what you believe they will end up respecting you.

Well, in the end, it doesnt matter much anyway.

The constant fighting is annoying, I wish my family would just shutup and get over it. I'm agnostic, they're catholic. Whats the problem? Its the intolerance of christianity, thats what.

Perhaps give being quietly agnostic a go? I'm not sure, but I don't think you're required to stand on the rooftops proclaiming your (admittedly flucuating) religious beliefs :fluffle:

hmmm youre 15. your parents still feel the need to control you...

i guess it depends on how unpleasant you are willing to let your life get.

they can "make" you go to church and "make" you go to classes but they cant force you to believe. its not possible.

so you have a choice of making nice, obeying your parents and keeping your agnosticism to yourself or being defiant and refusing to participate in a charade.

only you can decide if throwing your agnoticism in their face is worth the crap you are going to have to take for doing it.

I'm going to stand up and tell them that I am not Christian, and they can just get over it. My standard of living isn't great anyway, so it can't get much worse, I'll just listen to my iPod instead of the priest. :)

Its cold where I live, so at least I will be comfortable in hell :)

free acupuncture too:

http://www.artcyclopedia.com/images/Beckmann-Hell-of-Birds-detail.jpg

I'm going to stand up and tell them that I am not Christian, and they can just get over it. My standard of living isn't great anyway, so it can't get much worse, I'll just listen to my iPod instead of the priest. :)

having been 15 at one time, and being a mother now, in my opinion its the best thing to do. your parents are going to have to get used to having a ...son?... who is his own man.

coming to these very personal decisions is part of growing up. you cant be a child forever.

I don't really understand the "Proud X" thing, except where "X" is some achievement; why be proud of your religion, race or sexuality, for instance? I can see why you wouldn't want to be ashamed of them, but where does the pride come from?

You could be proud of running a mile in four minutes, or writing a clone of Space Invaders, or climbing a mountain; these things are notable achievements. But saying "I don't think we can know if god(s) exist" isn't, surely?

I'm not proud that I'm white; my parents are too, it's no great surprise.

I'm not proud that I assert that no gods actually exist, but I'm not ashamed to do it either.

Maybe I should be proud that the evil, godless liberal media haven't turned me into a rampant poofter*, but I'm not.

So, um, why?
Being an agnostic is quite different from being born with white skin.

Your beliefs are under your control. It is for you to sort them out. You aren't born with some magical knowledge of which religious/philosophical choices are "right" or "wrong."

If you actually take the time to think about serious issues and work out what you believe about them, that's an accomplishment. Maybe it's not a huge one, but it's an accomplishment none the less. I think little kids deserve to be proud when they master shoe-tying, and I'd say that working out one's own religious beliefs is at least slightly more challenging than working out how to tie one's shoe.

Furthermore, if you manage to work out what you believe as an individual despite living in a culture or group where you face extremely strong pressure NOT to do so, then you deserve to feel an extra measure of pride for overcoming that additional hurdle. If you are prepared to risk hellfire and damnation by using your critical thinking skills, then you deserve to feel proud of yourself for confronting what (I can only assume) must be a very scary threat.

The constant fighting is annoying, I wish my family would just shutup and get over it. I'm agnostic, they're catholic. Whats the problem? Its the intolerance of christianity, thats what.

Just ignore them. They cant force you to do anything. Just dont get mad and dont fight them.

What I used to do was something like this:

My mom: Son, we are going to be late for church. Get ready and lets go.
Myself: Ok.

15 minutes latter.
My mom: What? You havent done anything yet.
Myself: Yes, that is because I´m not going.
My mom: You said ok fifteen minutes earlier?!
Myself: Yes, I said you were going to get late. But I didnt said I was going.

Then my mom just got angry and kept saying I had to go, and all the time I just stood there quietly watching TV. When she finished, I just said:
Myself: You´re going to get REALLY late now.

The next sunday I went to the bathroom about 9:30 am and when they were going out I was taking a shower. They told me I had to go, but I told them I was taking a shower, and after that I was going to take a dump, so I couldnt go with them.

And that is it. After about a month they just stoped caring lol.

I'm going to stand up and tell them that I am not Christian, and they can just get over it. My standard of living isn't great anyway, so it can't get much worse, I'll just listen to my iPod instead of the priest. :)
I agree that standing up to any sort of pressure is a good idea, but I really don't think closing your ears and going "la la la..." is going to allow, let alone encourage, your parents to respect your decision. It will be perceived as raw rebellion against their beliefs and the authority that they work under if you are not willing to submit yourself to their critique as well. Understanding and listening goes two ways, and if you want them to respect and appreciate your Agnosticism, I think you should not let yourself blindly shut out their Christianity.

I'm no Christian, but I find myself frequently at church anyway simply because I enjoy thinking about the ways I and they can challenge each other into action and reconsideration. As a result, my folks and I do not consider our different beliefs a barrier, since even though they often struggle to understand why I think as I do, we have common ground in the questions asked and the issues raised by the talks, the bible and the ideas of Faith and belief.

proudly agnostic, meet profoundly indifferent.

proudly agnostic, meet profoundly indifferent.
Except you took the time to post the same thing twice... :confused:

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

What are you afraid of? She can't force you to believe. Or can she? :eek:

What are you afraid of? She can't force you to believe. Or can she? :eek:

Nope she can't, but she can yell and scream and drive me insane with her relentless nagging, and threats of hellfire and brimstone. "YOUR GOING TO HELL, SON!!" She screams at me everyday.

What are you afraid of? She can't force you to believe. Or can she? :eek:

She can force you to believe that the human race is going to hell. If she's trying to do that, the human race really is going to hell.

Well, since your fate is decided, what's all the fighting about? :D

Because she won't shutup...if I'm going to hell for my beliefs so be it. She doesn't have to nag and nag....and nag,and nag. When I am obviously not going to change.

What are you afraid of? She can't force you to believe. Or can she? :eek:
I gotta be honest, I think my mom could probably force me to believe in Zeus if she wanted to. She's one tough lady.

I made the mistake of challenging her to arm wrestle once, and my right thumb joint still aches when it rains. And she was in a good mood that day.

Nope she can't, but she can yell and scream and drive me insane with her relentless nagging, and threats of hellfire and brimstone. "YOUR GOING TO HELL, SON!!" She screams at me everyday.

Well, since your fate is decided, what's all the fighting about? :D

Except you took the time to post the same thing twice... :confused:

I only see once and just because i'm indifferent doesn't mean i have anything better to do with my time.

edit:hmm you win, mabye i should sleep....

Even if your parents hate it, they'll have to learn to accept it.

You're a teenager and you are old enough that they can't force you to go. You do have rights and one of them is freedom of (and from) religion.

Just stand up for yourself. It may be hell but they should learn now rather than later.

Nope she can't, but she can yell and scream and drive me insane with her relentless nagging, and threats of hellfire and brimstone. "YOUR GOING TO HELL, SON!!" She screams at me everyday.

Have you tried correcting her grammar? "Oh, yeah? Well, you're going to Grammar Hell, Mom!"

Breaking through indoctrination is a pretty impressive achievement.
I'd disagree; I, and various other people I know, have wound up entirely different to their (varying levels of) childhood indoctrinations' intended outcomes. (I think that sentence makes sense...)
As somebody else said - indoctrination and threats, at "best", can only make you do the actions; not actually believe.

Your beliefs are under your control. It is for you to sort them out. You aren't born with some magical knowledge of which religious/philosophical choices are "right" or "wrong."

If you actually take the time to think about serious issues and work out what you believe about them, that's an accomplishment. Maybe it's not a huge one, but it's an accomplishment none the less. I think little kids deserve to be proud when they master shoe-tying, and I'd say that working out one's own religious beliefs is at least slightly more challenging than working out how to tie one's shoe.

Furthermore, if you manage to work out what you believe as an individual despite living in a culture or group where you face extremely strong pressure NOT to do so, then you deserve to feel an extra measure of pride for overcoming that additional hurdle. If you are prepared to risk hellfire and damnation by using your critical thinking skills, then you deserve to feel proud of yourself for confronting what (I can only assume) must be a very scary threat.

I do agree that thinking about various philosophies, finding out whether you agree with them or not (and why) is important, and an achievement (one that many people don't manage), but faith - the actual belief in higher powers bit - isn't a rational decision. I believe it's just a sort of feeling you have, built in as standard. I don't have it, AFAIK you don't, and we don't really understand those that do, do we? But those that do probably don't understand us, either, at least on this - let's face it - relatively small and unimportant point (IMO).

You might persuade me through argument that every position (political, behavioral, whatever) your religion takes is most sensible, and I might become a happy member, but I doubt very much if you could persuade me to have any faith in metaphysical entities. If you could demonstrate they existed I'd merrily agree that they were real, but I wouldn't have faith in them, believe in them, any more than I believe in my postman or my desk.

That, at least, is what I believe. It could well be completely bollocks, of course, but until we can actually dig into each others' brains and see what other people think or feel, it's the best model I have; that believing, or not, is built in, and that's why it's so hard to understand the opposite position.

Apologies for the length and ramblingness; I know that took too long, the tea I was brewing at the start went cold ><

Edit: Was that kind of stuff what your "Is Religiosity a Choice?" thread was about? It looked like it was talking about brain chemistry and stuff that went right over my head at the start, so I didn't read it much. Oops...

I gotta be honest, I think my mom could probably force me to believe in Zeus if she wanted to. She's one tough lady.

I made the mistake of challenging her to arm wrestle once, and my right thumb joint still aches when it rains. And she was in a good mood that day.

That's one tough mother! :eek:

You don't believe. Therefore, you are an atheist.

Theists believe. Atheists don't.

Congratulations. Lack of belief is the only rational position on this issue.

I said that I don't believe entirely in the idea of god. I am not atheist, there very well may be a god, but I choose not worship this god, and I claim to have no religion. I am close to being atheist though. It would solve my problems by just saying I don't believe, then to say, I might not believe

I am 15 years old.

I am agnostic in that I don't believe that the exsistance of god can be known. I have no faith in faith really. On the one hand, I do not believe entirely in the concept of a holy entity, on the other, I am not at the point where I can say 'there is no god'.
You don't believe. Therefore, you are an atheist.

Theists believe. Atheists don't.

Congratulations. Lack of belief is the only rational position on this issue.

I'm glad my mom didn't care about my nontheism.

I said that I don't believe entirely in the idea of god. I am not atheist, there very well may be a god, but I choose not worship this god, and I claim to have no religion. I am close to being atheist though. It would solve my problems by just saying I don't believe, then to say, I might not believe

You could say there is not enough proof either way so you're breaking away to do soul searching. Explain you want to explore this by yourself and mandated religion is getting in the way of your soul searching.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.It's a matter of your priorities. Assuming you and your family really are 'loved ones', I'd suggest you pretend to be Roman Catholic. Far less drama that way & nobody gets hurt.

You could try to explain - very calmly and slowly - that being agnostic makes you no more or less religious. It just means you don't think the basis of your faith (or lack of it, if you're actually an atheist) can be falsified.

Most religious people I care about, are agnostics. Then again, most people I care about are at least moderately sane. I'm likewise agnostic, though not religious.

Oh.. You could also try to read the Bible. The details escape me right now, but the "Proof denies faith" bit should support your agnostic stance quite nicely.

You don't believe. Therefore, you are an atheist.
Theists believe. Atheists don't.That's not what he said. And maintaining the position that there might be god(s) but just does not know makes him indeed an agnostic.

I'm glad my mom didn't care about my nontheism.
I was 15 when I worked up the courage to tell my mother I didn't believe in God (both my parents did). She was quite upset, and there was even some discussion of cutting me out of the will because they didn't want to further enable someone they'd raised so badly.

It was quite stressful.

But they came around. Now both my parents are agnostics, too.

I was 15 when I worked up the courage to tell my mother I didn't believe in God (both my parents did). She was quite upset, and there was even some discussion of cutting me out of the will because they didn't want to further enable someone they'd raised so badly.

It was quite stressful.

But they came around. Now both my parents are agnostics, too.Why does it take courage to tell somebody what you do or don't believe? Where did you grow up? Saudi Arabia?

That's not what he said. And maintaining the position that there might be god(s) but just does not know makes him indeed an agnostic.
Yes. But his lack of belief also makes him an atheist.

It's an either/or distinction. You are either a theist (you believe) or an atheist (you don't). There's no middle ground.

Yes. But his lack of belief also makes him an atheist.

It's an either/or distinction. You are either a theist (you believe) or an atheist (you don't). There's no middle ground.
I'm quite sure I've argued this point with you before; the middle ground is best exemplified when there is conflicting opinion as to whether what I believe in is a deity or not.

For the sake of argument, let's suppose I believe in a universal hive mind a-la Hinduism. Is this God? Well, to all intents and purposes, it does exactly what a god should do, which would lead the liberal religions to assert that yes - it is a god, also known as the Brahman, which can be seen as The God given different cultural application.

And yet it's a description of something that is entirely physical as a phenomenon, no different than the concept of what happens in ant colonies all the time, so I need not necessarily think of it as anything other than such. The idea of giving the mind a supernatural existence may seem unnecessary, and so the philosopher and scientist may say that no - it is not a god, it is just the emergent result of all these things working together.

What am I? Theist or Atheist? I, for one, do not know whether it's God or not; all I know is the entity I believe in.

Yes. But his lack of belief also makes him an atheist.

It's an either/or distinction. You are either a theist (you believe) or an atheist (you don't). There's no middle ground.The middle ground is to leave the possibility open. What does that make him?

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

Lie to them. If they can't accept who you are then you should just try to not make it an issue.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

Hold your ground, but don't be an asshole about it. Research enough to have a reasonable arguement with your mom, and see what happens.

Why does it take courage to tell somebody what you do or don't believe? Where did you grow up? Saudi Arabia?
I was afraid they'd be upset. Or disappointed.

They were.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

Poor you. You'll just have to bite the bullet until you're 18. Maybe you can find an intelligent priest with whom to discuss things. If you do this on your own, you'll take the initiative away from your mother and, probably, make her happy. They (intelligent priests) do exist - they're usually Dominican or Jesuit not diocesan - just be sure that you find one who doesn't like young boys.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

I am actually going through the same thing right now -- I was raised Roman Catholic, but after looking around and thinking, I became an agnostic and my family thinks I'm worshiping the devil or something. If agnosticism is the right path for you, then go with it. Your parents can only control you for so long. I hope everything works out for you.

I'm also an RC turned agnostic and around your age but I still go to church and even play guitar in a church group. The way I figure it they're perfectly entitled to their beliefs as long as nobody gets hurt and there's no point in refusing to participate if you'll only offend; most of what Catholics do is mindless, parrot-like repetition anyways and most of them don't care. You wont stand out unless you wear a t-shirt with "death to the unborn child" on it or something and even then...

But then again I live in N. Ireland so if I was to be vocally agnostic I'd be acused of "betraying Ireland" or some damned thing and soon be saying goodbye to me knee caps

I was afraid they'd be upset. Or disappointed.

They were.Why? It's not their business.

The middle ground is to leave the possibility open. What does that make him?A theist is someone with divinity-based beliefs. An atheist is someone who isn't a theist.

Obviously 'leaving the possibility open' don't involve theistic beliefs. It just doesn't rule out such beliefs may be valid. Thus this particular 'middle ground', is atheism. There's no distinction between lack of belief and disbelief.

Agnosticism is purely an epistemological stance. It says nothing about your actual beliefs, only to what extent you think the basis for your beliefs can be validated. Most people are agnostic about the existence of dragons, for example. When pressed, we're generally honest enough with ourselves to admit we can't conclusively prove dragons (don't) exist.

Some distinguish between explicit and implicit atheism. The former refers to disbelief (aka "it's all bonk"), the latter to a mere lack of belief (aka "I just dunno man").

A theist is someone with divinity-based beliefs. An atheist is someone who isn't a theist.

Obviously 'leaving the possibility open' don't involve theistic beliefs. It just doesn't rule out such beliefs may be valid. Thus this particular 'middle ground', is atheism. There's no distinction between lack of belief and disbelief.

Agnosticism is purely an epistemological stance. It says nothing about your actual beliefs, only to what extent you think the basis for your beliefs can be validated. Most people are agnostic about the existence of dragons, for example. When pressed, we're generally honest enough with ourselves to admit we can't conclusively prove dragons (don't) exist.

Some distinguish between explicit and implicit atheism. The former refers to disbelief (aka "it's all bonk"), the latter to a mere lack of belief (aka "I just dunno man").So someone who says "there may be god(s)" is an atheist?

I think I might be Ignostic...

"According to Kurtz, ignosticism is compatible with atheism and agnosticism.[3] Theodore Drange, however, sees atheism and agnosticism as cognitivist views.[4] In any case, ignosticism falls under the general category of nontheism. An atheist would say "I don't believe God exists", an agnostic would say "I don't know if God exists or not", and an ignostic would say "I don't know what you mean when you say 'God exists'.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

Most definitions of the word "atheist" give you something along the lines of "someone who believes god(s) do not exist". For instance Cambridge online (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=4607&dict=CALD) and Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist).

Just because a word comes from a word (or word + prefix in this case) with a certain meaning doesn't mean it still has that meaning; otherwise, most people wouldn't think that "decimate" and "annihilate" mean similar things.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

If you're truly an agnostic, going through the motions and rituality of catholicism isn't going to hurt you. Religion is just as much about community as it is about personal reflection. When you're older, and away from the thumb of parental oppression, then you can relax the religious vigil for a while.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

Mind if I ask what the dear Catholic Church on High did to agnostify you? For me it was a priest telling a churchful of multi-denominational girls who just wanted a good education that "if you are not Catholic, you are going to Hell!" Fire and Damnation, brimstone, yadda-yadda...

Kinda irked me. Well, my parents didn't force religion down my throat so I pretty much got away with dropping Catholicism. In your case maybe you could fake it???

Mind if I ask what the dear Catholic Church on High did to agnostify you? For me it was a priest telling a churchful of multi-denominational girls who just wanted a good education that "if you are not Catholic, you are going to Hell!" Fire and Damnation, brimstone, yadda-yadda...

Kinda irked me. Well, my parents didn't force religion down my throat so I pretty much got away with dropping Catholicism. In your case maybe you could fake it???I really wonder where such priests exist.

I'm quite sure I've argued this point with you before; the middle ground is best exemplified when there is conflicting opinion as to whether what I believe in is a deity or not.
I don't think we have discussed that before - I'm sure I'd remember something that clever.

That is probably the only way to find middle ground. Since whether you have belief is always knowable to you, the question could be as to whether that thing in which you have belief is divine.

That's really smart. Thanks for sharing it.

I really wonder where such priests exist.

I can say in the Bay Area for sure. It's the whole "fear tactic" that I grew up with. I was really put off by it all.

The urge to believe in something however undefined still exists within me, and I am in the habit of personally praying to God or Mother Mary when I need encouragement or guidance. 12 years of Catholic education isn't easy to erase. I just refuse to go to church or limit my spirituality to any one particular faith.

The middle ground is to leave the possibility open. What does that make him?
If he's leaving the possibility open then he doesn't believe. That makes him an atheist.

He doesn't have to believe that God doesn't exist in order to be an atheist. He just has to fail to hold the theistic belief.

Just because a word comes from a word (or word + prefix in this case) with a certain meaning doesn't mean it still has that meaning; otherwise, most people wouldn't think that "decimate" and "annihilate" mean similar things.
Just because most people think a word means something doesn't make it true.

Just because most people think a word means something doesn't make it true.

Tell that to the dictionaries... Etymology is fun.

Why does it take courage to tell somebody what you do or don't believe? Where did you grow up? Saudi Arabia?

When your parents raise you with a religion, a lot of the time they expect you to believe and if they believe strongly enough themselves, they may feel they failed in educating you religiously or something. I don't think it's something that they do to be vicious or invade on peoples' privacy, but most parents seem to think they have a right to raise their child in a religion until they're 18. I am more of a agnostic but I go through the limited things we do at home and none of us have been to synagogue in ages!

So someone who says "there may be god(s)" is an atheist?Yes.Most definitions of the word "atheist" give you something along the lines of "someone who believes god(s) do not exist". For instance Cambridge online and Dictionary.com.Interestingly, the definitions listed on Dictionary.com have changed since I joined NSG. I know, because I've previously linked to the very same page to illustrate that several dictionaries defines it as "lack of belief in a god". I think I even quoted it in full once, so searching for The Similized world or Similization might prove it. I almost feel like donning my tinfoil hat and start speculating about faith, politics and dictionaries...Just because most people think a word means something doesn't make it true.Depends on how long they suffer the misconception. Language conforms to our use of it. If the vast majority of us assume a word means something other than what it was intended to mean, the definition of the word will change, given time. It's anarchy in action ;)

Anyway, I don't really give a fuck. In my little corner of the world, theists are ones with belief in some divine concept or other, atheists are the ones that aren't theists, and agnosticism has nothing to do with personal beliefs, but is to do with the nature of knowledge. And I reserve the right to stare - and possibly point and chuckle - at people who think saying they're agnostic gives others some idea of what their personal beliefs are.

To the very best of my knowledge, I don't know anyone who isn't agnostic, and I know a lot of atheists and theists with and without religious and other superstitious beliefs. I can't shake the feeling the confusion is another one of those American oddities, born out of oppressive social norms. I hope I'm wrong about that, but... I somehow doubt it.

Tell that to the dictionaries... Etymology is fun.
That's why I prefer the OED. It preserves the earliest meanings.

Plus, the OED correctly identifies what it's doing as cataloguing use, not meaning. Just because the word was used in one way doesn't mean that's what the word means.

Just ignore them. They cant force you to do anything. Just dont get mad and dont fight them.

What I used to do was something like this:

My mom: Son, we are going to be late for church. Get ready and lets go.
Myself: Ok.

15 minutes latter.
My mom: What? You havent done anything yet.
Myself: Yes, that is because I´m not going.
My mom: You said ok fifteen minutes earlier?!
Myself: Yes, I said you were going to get late. But I didnt said I was going.

Then my mom just got angry and kept saying I had to go, and all the time I just stood there quietly watching TV. When she finished, I just said:
Myself: You´re going to get REALLY late now.

The next sunday I went to the bathroom about 9:30 am and when they were going out I was taking a shower. They told me I had to go, but I told them I was taking a shower, and after that I was going to take a dump, so I couldnt go with them.

And that is it. After about a month they just stoped caring lol.

I used to stay up late Saturday nights and then sleep in Sunday mornings. They can't get me to go to church if I'm asleep. :p

But I don't live with my parents anymore so it's not really an issue.

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

...*looks at sig*...

Now, be a man and stand for your beliefs. Your parents will bother you for a time, but if you stand for what you believe they will end up respecting you.

or kicking you out of the house and the family

...*looks at sig*...
Your sig misses the point of agnosticism, which is that one does not consider it possible to know whether or not any god exists. It isn't about doubt.

I used to stay up late Saturday nights and then sleep in Sunday mornings. They can't get me to go to church if I'm asleep. :p

But I don't live with my parents anymore so it's not really an issue.

Harumph. Never worked for me. My dad always managed to get me out of bed. The first time he asked nicely. I usually went back to sleep. The second...well, I went to church.

Your sig misses the point of agnosticism, which is that one does not consider it possible to know whether or not any god exists. It isn't about doubt.

It certainly is about doubt. You can't say whether or not there is a God. Therefore, you doubt if God exists.

It certainly is about doubt. You can't say whether or not there is a God. Therefore, you doubt if God exists.
Not really, the atheist doubts that god(s) exist. The agnostic doesn't claim to know and in theory, could be entirely neutral on the matter otherwise.
And really, nobody can say that a particular god exists, they can only say that they believe or disbelieve it does.

I can't shake the feeling the confusion is another one of those American oddities, born out of oppressive social norms.

i find that to be an inductively useful generalization about the world for most such issues

And really, nobody can say that a particular god exists, they can only say that they believe or disbelieve it does.They might have a direct experience of their God. It's not evidence they can present to convince others, but it does raise their faith above 'belief without basis'.

There are so many different definitions of Agnosticism that I am starting to seriously doubt if it really exists.

I was raised Roman Catholic but became agnostic also. I don't know if my parents still think I'm Catholic or not, but I've gradually moved away from religion beginning at the time I was about 13 to 17 or so. That's probably why my parents don't really care that I'm not really religious. Over time they've just gotten used to it and accepted it without ever really thinking about it.

I still go to church every Sunday. Although, I really just go so I can get free donuts and apple juice after the mass.

Interestingly, the definitions listed on Dictionary.com have changed since I joined NSG. I know, because I've previously linked to the very same page to illustrate that several dictionaries defines it as "lack of belief in a god". I think I even quoted it in full once, so searching for The Similized world or Similization might prove it. I almost feel like donning my tinfoil hat and start speculating about faith, politics and dictionaries...

:D
That is quite funny.
Not tinfoil, though, it actually amplifies the mind-control waves...

I have dropped my Roman Catholic upbringing and have declared myself an agnostic. Upon learning of this my family has decided I am atheist...and must immediatly be reindoctrinated in the Catholic Christian faith. What am I going to do? I was raised Catholic, it wouldn't change my mind in the least. I cannot defy my mother, or she will make my life a living hell. Opinions, suggestions, please.

become an atheist. that way you can kill your parents if they bother you, and you won't feel guilty about it since godless atheists don't have a moral code. </eac>

I was going to make a point about the Catholic Church being morally bankrupt when it entered banking (moneylending). In researching my point I came across this.

Ethelbert, king of the east Angles, having reigned single some time, thought fit to take a wife; for this purpose he came to the court of Offa, king of Mercia, to desire his daughter in marriage. Queenrid, consort of Offa, a cruel, ambitious, and blood-thirsty woman, who envied the retinue and splendour of the unsuspicious king, resolved in some manner to have him murdered...

The manner in which the heinous crime was effected was as cowardly as it was fatal: under the chair of state in which Ethelbert sat, a deep pit was dug; at the bottom of it was placed the murderer; the unfortunate king was then let through a trap-door into the pit...

An effective plan perhaps, but Bond-villainesque in its complication.

The link is that the Vatican Bank grew out of Peter's Pence, which itself started when Queenrid's king paid money to the Vatican as penance.

Anyway, moneylending...bad!

My advice would be to attempt a rational discussion with your parents – the impression you give does not bode well but it should be tried anyway. After that, if they persist in attempting to revive the Spanish Inquisition just remind them that the last pope was very tolerant of other religions and respected differing beliefs.

If your parents still refuse to respect your beliefs, talk to your priest. Hopefully your priest will be understanding and can have a quiet word with your parents about it – I doubt they will refuse to have a meeting with the priest.

If your priest is an asshole and doesn’t encourage tolerance, then do something to make yourself unwelcome. Wear inappropriate clothing if you can (embarrass your parents enough to convince them to leave you home), or as a last resort, do some fairly despicable things. I do not recommend you go for an excommunication (though I wish I were catholic just so I could get a good excommunication story) but it should not be hard to convince them you should not be forced into religion. Even the Vatican admits that conversion by the sword was never a good policy.

Fake it. Pretend to be a Catholic until you leave home.

And that really IS the best advice.

There are so many different definitions of Agnosticism that I am starting to seriously doubt if it really exists.

I don't think you can ever really know if there really is an agnosticism.

I don't think you can ever really know if there really is an agnosticism.

Well... I don't think you can prove conclusively that Agnosticism doesn't exist, but that's no reason to not believe in a lack of belief.

It certainly is about doubt. You can't say whether or not there is a God. Therefore, you doubt if God exists.You're missing the point.

Prove, if you can, that the universe exists.

I know you can't do it. I'm also quite certain you don't doubt the universe exists. That is agnosticism. It's what the word means. It's what it was invented to describe.

The inability to objectively ascertain the nature or state of something, in no way implies personal doubts as to the nature or state of that something.

I'm agnostic about the existence of myself. I'm sure I exist, but lack the means to demonstrate it. Likewise, I'm agnostic about the non-existence of divinity. I'm sure no such thing exists, but lack the means to demonstrate it. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. And just like everyone else, I cannot prove a negative.

Doubt has nothing to do with it. Agnosticism is to do with epistemology. It is what honest people declare themselves, when they hit the limit of human knowledge.i find that to be an inductively useful generalization about the world for most such issuesDon't we all, hehe.That is quite funny.I thought so too. Then again, I suppose it's possible that dictionaries have simply conformed to a new, popular definition of the word. Nah, who am I kidding? Of course it's a conspiracy. It has to be. Much more fun that way.Not tinfoil, though, it actually amplifies the mind-control waves...Shit. And I spend so much time painting little aliens on it too :(
Maybe if I make a new one of lead?

On a side note... Why the hell do I always want to call you Compulsive Decompression?

It certainly is about doubt. You can't say whether or not there is a God. Therefore, you doubt if God exists.

It's not about doubt. Skepticism arises FROM agnosticism, not the other way around.

"You can't say whether or not there is a God" is a re-stating of "doubt if God exists," not a premise of it.

I am 15 years old.

I am agnostic in that I don't believe that the exsistance of god can be known. I have no faith in faith really. On the one hand, I do not believe entirely in the concept of a holy entity, on the other, I am not at the point where I can say 'there is no god'.

Play along.

I hate to say this.

but just play along man!!! Its your mother, appease her.

Go to church, the message is good, be nice, dont steal or lie.

And stop trying to give your mother a heart attack.

Release any after school special ideas you might have about mom loving you for who you are, because you will always be her baby and she believes that if you dont believe you will burn in hell...so give her a break!!!

Take one for the team.

...
And no, I am not offering my personal beliefs because what i just told you to do directly conflicts with my religion.

I'm agnostic about the existence of myself. I'm sure I exist, but lack the means to demonstrate it.

Agnosticism need not defy logic. :)

Shit. And I spend so much time painting little aliens on it too :(
Maybe if I make a new one of lead?

Maybe a lead lining for the existing one would work? I don't know, I've not seen a study of lead ones :(

On a side note... Why the hell do I always want to call you Compulsive Decompression?

Hahaha, if I have to make a puppet due to deletion or something that is what it'll be (unless I forget) :D

You're missing the point.

Prove, if you can, that the universe exists.

I know you can't do it. I'm also quite certain you don't doubt the universe exists. That is agnosticism. It's what the word means. It's what it was invented to describe.

The inability to objectively ascertain the nature or state of something, in no way implies personal doubts as to the nature or state of that something.

I'm agnostic about the existence of myself. I'm sure I exist, but lack the means to demonstrate it. Likewise, I'm agnostic about the non-existence of divinity. I'm sure no such thing exists, but lack the means to demonstrate it. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. And just like everyone else, I cannot prove a negative.



Doubt is less subject to personal, subjective identification. It is more to deal with exactly what you have described--an inability to determine existence. If the existence cannot be determined, it is both doubted to exist and doubted that it does not. BUt doubt cannot be viewed negatively in this sense--it is more acknowledging that something cannot be proved. I cannot conclusively prove the universe exists. I cannot prove that I exist. Therefore, I live in doubt that it does indeed exist. I cannot say for certain what comprises my life, or that I am actually typing right now, or that the sun will rise tomorrow. Where certainty fails, doubt prevails. Agnosticism=doubt.

It's not about doubt. Skepticism arises FROM agnosticism, not the other way around.

"You can't say whether or not there is a God" is a re-stating of "doubt if God exists," not a premise of it.

Chicken and egg.

Skepticism arises FROM agnosticism, not the other way around.

I dunno about that.

For me, agnosticism is about confronting and owning up to the limitations of your own knowledge. It's not simply about not knowing, it's about KNOWING that you don't know, and not being ashamed or afraid of that.

Nobody knows whether or not God exists, but not everybody is agnostic.

For me, skepticism came first. "Wait, do I really know what I think I know? Is it even possible for me to know the answers to certain questions?" Agnosticism came later.

I dunno about that.

For me, agnosticism is about confronting and owning up to the limitations of your own knowledge. It's not simply about not knowing, it's about KNOWING that you don't know, and not being ashamed or afraid of that.

Nobody knows whether or not God exists, but not everybody is agnostic.

For me, skepticism came first. "Wait, do I really know what I think I know? Is it even possible for me to know the answers to certain questions?" Agnosticism came later.

At first, I was skeptical of skepticism. Then I saw the irony in what I was doing, and just admitted to being a practical skeptic.

Chicken and egg.

The chicken is not a re-stating of the egg. I dare you to crack open a chicken for breakfast.

It is more to deal with exactly what you have described--an inability to determine existence. If the existence cannot be determined, it is both doubted to exist and doubted that it does not.

Now you have it in the correct causal order, with doubt arising from agnosticism.

BUt doubt cannot be viewed negatively in this sense--it is more acknowledging that something cannot be proved. I cannot conclusively prove the universe exists. I cannot prove that I exist. Therefore, I live in doubt that it does indeed exist. I cannot say for certain what comprises my life, or that I am actually typing right now, or that the sun will rise tomorrow. Where certainty fails, doubt prevails. Agnosticism=doubt.

Doubt is not viewed negatively in that sense. Acknowledgement comes after identification of a thing, otherwise there is nothing to acknowledge. So if a thing's actuality cannot be identified, only speculated upon (i.e. has an imaginative identity), that is when it's existence must be doubted.

The chicken is not a re-stating of the egg. I dare you to crack open a chicken for breakfast.

It's identifying which came first. You say doubt arises from agnosticism. I say the opposite. It's a matter of perception.

Now you have it in the correct causal order, with doubt arising from agnosticism.



Doubt is not viewed negatively in that sense. Acknowledgement comes after identification of a thing, otherwise there is nothing to acknowledge. So if a thing's actuality cannot be identified, only speculated upon (i.e. has an imaginative identity), that is when it's existence must be doubted.

Yes, you can identify a thing. "God is..." But doubt that it exists precedes the belief in the inability to prove it does or does not.

And doubt does not arise from agnosticism. It is the other way around. (Which came first...the chicken or the egg...) This is something that is unanswerable, and you will continue to debate, but I tell you it is perception and you probably won't convince me otherwise. But feel free to try. :)