NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070415/ap_on_re_eu/the_french_malaise
France wrestles with its own decline

PARIS - Wars and weather have left few scars on Paris' Arc de Triomphe. Commissioned by Napoleon to celebrate his victories, the 15-story tower of bone-white stone stands as an eternal monument to French glory, a time when Europe trembled before this nation's might.

The national mood now, as France enters the final week before Sunday's presidential election, is far less exultant. To Roland Perrossier, whose great-great grandfather fought for Napoleon, the arch has become a symbol of decline.

"It's a feeling of lost glory," said Perrossier, sheltering under the arch from a spring squall. "The French have lost the aura they once had, and France — barring a few small exceptions — no longer occupies the place it used to internationally."

I thought this article would make for a decent debate (or a massive flamefest...).

Do you reckon it's correct? What do you think has to happen in France to make the jump into the 21st century? And is it connected to the curious fact that somehow old-school state communism (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/europe_diary/default.stm) hasn't died there yet, like it has pretty much everywhere else in the west? Does France have trouble letting go of the old certainties moreso than other societies?

France is the nation of also-ran.

Aside from one glorious moment under Napoleon, it's come second in everything. It was the second major democracy; the second largest overseas empire; now it's the second biggest european economy. And things aren't going to improve any anytime soon.

So France has to cling to it's "glorious" past. It has nothing else; and the people of France deeply resent the fact that they just aren't important anymore. So, they try to stop anything from changing, and that digs them even deeper into a hole, since they need change. Most French crops are still grown on family farms, for instance - and family farms aren't economically viable any more.

I don't know how long France can survive like this. If they don't get the lead out and stop feeling sorry for themselves, they're going to be the sick old man of europe, and watch there much-vaunted culture melt away into a United Europe.

Agincourt, the pre-revolutionary famines and the tactical attitudes prior to the First World War show French society to be notoriously reluctant to embrace modernization and change.

They are too isolacionists. Economicaly, technologicaly and culturaly. Which means they are someway frozen in time.

Anytime someone tries to make a change, millions go to the streets to fight against it. Without changing, they wont be able to develop enough to continue being one of the top players.

I mean, I hardly see anyone anywhere that is french. In all the foruns I´ve visited, I barely see one or two. I doubt there are many here in NSG. In my travels, french always kept to themselves and remained in their groups. If they feel like they dont want to learn english, or that french is superior, or that no one else deserves to deal with them, well, they are going to lag behind.

Maybe they'll start rioting again.

massive debt, waining political and economic power coupled with a poor underclass...

oh bollocks here we go again :p

Maybe they'll start rioting again.

One can only hope.

What France really needs is a strong leader to take them into modernity (if that's even a word).

They're still much better off than Russia, which had a much bigger (and more recent) empire.

Meh, empires come and go. Several hundred years ago Mongolia was the fear of asia and europe, now only a virtual province of China.

Ah, nothing like a thread about France to make one giggle at the nonsense spouted about it by Internet "experts".

Vive La République, quelle que ce soit...

The fact that France is still doing 'ok' despite the shackles it places on itself indicates huge, untapped potential.

Fassigen - has the Swedish government not just moved a little away from its wealth tax? - I didn't have time to read in-depth this morning but is it a mere drop in the ocean, normal right-left politics or part of a changing position on large state intervention...or, most possibly, none of the above?

There may be a few nationalists who are mourning the loss of "glory" under Napoleon. But France is doing well. Sure, like *all* the European powers, it doesn't have the "glory" it used to - destroying civilizations, slaughtering indigent peoples and generally making a fucking ass out of itself. Boo fucking hoo.

What suprises me is the non-French who are moaning about France here. When the French do something assertive, it's because they're "arrogant." When they don't, it's because they're "pansies." When they throw their weight around, they're "enemies." When they don't, they're "also-rans." Give me a break from this childish nonsense already.

If dominating the world with military power, or being a "first" for some Guinness Book of National World Records, is the only way a nation is great or validated, then we're all doomed. Luckily, that's not how it is, except in the minds of a few delusional boys.

What suprises me is the non-French who are moaning about France here. When the French do something assertive, it's because they're "arrogant." When they don't, it's because they're "pansies." When they throw their weight around, they're "enemies." When they don't, they're "also-rans." Give me a break from this childish nonsense already.

Actually, I opt for neither arrogant, nor pansies.

Messmakers, is what I think they are. Although in today's world, they play more as spoilers - and it doesn't seem to matter much to France who they spoil.

I think it's funny that they're in deeper into the Iranian nuclear program than even the Russians - and yet France also voted to sanction Iran.

Probably so they can make more money by cutting the deal under the table - in the same way that they sold a huge air defense system to Iraq under the table during sanctions - in exchange for oil under the table during sanctions.

Of course, the US doesn't go around cleaning up France's mess anymore - the last time we did that, we got stuck in Vietnam.

I touched the Eiffel Tower yesterday. It seemed okay to me, structurally.

I wasn't aware that being a warmongering empire or a nation willing to do anything for a buck made you "glorious".

What suprises me is the non-French who are moaning about France here. When the French do something assertive, it's because they're "arrogant." When they don't, it's because they're "pansies." When they throw their weight around, they're "enemies." When they don't, they're "also-rans." Give me a break from this childish nonsense already.


Why are you so surprised? Americans have had to deal with that same sort of crap for decades.

Let me see...

"Most French crops are still grown on family farms"... really ? I guess i'm living in another France then.

"I hardly see anyone anywhere that is french"... depends where you go i guess. We're not THAT many you know.

"In all the foruns I´ve visited, I barely see one or two"... again, see above. Try some french/italian/deutch/chinese/etc... forum next time and search for Americans, just to compare.

"I doubt there are many here in NSG"... I am French... and it seems some other posters here are too. But again, it's only a question of population size.

"If they feel like they dont want to learn english"... Anyone should learn at least 3-4 languages. English is only one of them. (As a reminder, Chinese is, by far, the most spoken language.)

"or that french is superior"... Of course I feel superior. Don't you too ? If someone is not feeling superior somehow then he will be a slave all his life.

Now to the point of the OP :

It seems that nowadays, for a strange reason, not being a full right-wing government is equal to declining. As this game show to every player, you can have a very living and interesting country without a American-like government.

Sure, France is not perfect (which country is ?) but it could be worse and it's always moving and changing.

I respect France a lot. It seems like a lot of their current malaise is a reaction against the direction the whole world is going in. For a state used to community and equality, the forces of global capitalism are clearly pretty painful.

Ah, nothing like a thread about France to make one giggle at the nonsense spouted about it by Internet "experts".

Quite. If I listened to Internet pundits I'd think that France was a decaying authoritarian hellhole completely bereft of any sort of hope for it's inhabitants. Luckily, I can open my eyes and see how very wrong they are.

What suprises me is the non-French who are moaning about France here.
I'm mainly moaning about the political stagnation there. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that youth unemployment is even being accepted as a major issue. The one thing that actually can free up this morass was being shot down by angry mobs (of relatively wealthy students, of course, not the unemployed kids in question). The idea that in France someone can still use the words "class struggle" and "bourgeoisie" in political discourse and not get laughed at is just bizarre. To me that's no different to creationism still being a factor in parts of the US.

Then there's the whole "non" with regards to the EU, and that truly ugly business with Airbus. Whenever French politicians don't know how to make a tough decision (which seems to be all the time) they'll still push 19th century mindnumbing nationalism on people - the exact kind they're quick to condemn when talking on some charity event or an EU meeting. Or about the US, for that matter.

I want France to be a vibrant, modern country with a flexible and modern economy, because I feel that the EU can only be successful if France is in a position to really contribute. At the moment, all I really hear from there is about some scary strawman called "neoliberalism" who wants to eat our babies.

"or that french is superior"... Of course I feel superior. Don't you too ? If someone is not feeling superior somehow then he will be a slave all his life.
I agree with most things you said, but that's just 100% wrong. Feeling superior because of your passport is exactly the sort of thing that the EU was meant to get rid of.

It seems that nowadays, for a strange reason, not being a full right-wing government is equal to declining.
The strange reason is called globalisation and global markets. They force efficiency on businesses everywhere on the planet, and the more restricted an economy, the more this pressure hurts.

That being said, France was depressingly close to a real right-wing government last time, as I recall. You can't seriously want to tell me that it would be worse to have a guy who lowers taxes than a guy like Le Pen who'd just prefer to have all Blacks, Jews and Arabs summarily executed.

Ah, nothing like a thread about France to make one giggle at the nonsense spouted about it by Internet "experts".

Vive La République, quelle que ce soit...

Ah, nothing like a thread about the US to make one giggle at the nonsense spouted about it by Swedes...

Well, I have to say, though, that I do like French culture. Example: the Saumur annual wine festival. €4 for a glass and plate, as much food and wine as you like. Nobody fighting, nobody sick (apart for one Brit) nothing broken, just a nice day out. Couldn't do that in Britain, so I don't think it's a decline on all fronts.

Let me see...

"Most French crops are still grown on family farms"... really ? I guess i'm living in another France then.

"I hardly see anyone anywhere that is french"... depends where you go i guess. We're not THAT many you know.

"In all the foruns I´ve visited, I barely see one or two"... again, see above. Try some french/italian/deutch/chinese/etc... forum next time and search for Americans, just to compare.

"I doubt there are many here in NSG"... I am French... and it seems some other posters here are too. But again, it's only a question of population size.

"If they feel like they dont want to learn english"... Anyone should learn at least 3-4 languages. English is only one of them. (As a reminder, Chinese is, by far, the most spoken language.)

"or that french is superior"... Of course I feel superior. Don't you too ? If someone is not feeling superior somehow then he will be a slave all his life.

Now to the point of the OP :

It seems that nowadays, for a strange reason, not being a full right-wing government is equal to declining. As this game show to every player, you can have a very living and interesting country without a American-like government.

Sure, France is not perfect (which country is ?) but it could be worse and it's always moving and changing.

Family Farms, heh. I guess they haven't been in the french countryside. There are SOME family farms, but I think in Spain they are more common.

In NSG there are a lot of french posters, given the fact that it is a mainly english forum. Ariddia, Nodinia, Kilobugya, just to name too few. (As a side note, most french here are fierce socialists, I wonder why)

Yes, try some french forums, and you will find no american posters. Again, at least in the spanish ones I've never seen one. And chinese is the first language spoken in the word, and surprise, surprise, even for me, spanish is second. Even so, many french and spanish people learn english, more in comparison to the americans learning other languages. (And they are supposed to learn it in high school, at least spanish)

The french superiority sense is the only thing I hold against the french, then again, it is stronger is Paris than in the rest of the country. (As a side note, my favourite french city is Avignon, it is too lovely and I want to live there).

As usual, I see a lot of americans blaming the french for burying their heads on the sand, when they have their own even deeper into mud. For some americans, it would be good to acknowledge that there are other countries in the world, and that to not desiring to learn english and buying pepsi cola doesn't make someone an isolationist.

Just to clarify the "superior" part of my post : I feel superior, not as a French, but as Me, an individual.

Actually, I would gladly say that the whole Paris part of the population is clearly inferior.
But that's only the expression of some old struggle between french people.

Decline's a normal part of any country

its happening to France

its going to happen to The UK and The US

*shrugs* nothin' you can really do about it

I wasn't aware that being a warmongering empire or a nation willing to do anything for a buck made you "glorious".

Dirty commie... ;)