NationStates Jolt Archive

During one of my meditation (which I am enjoying a great deal of), a thought came to me. Some holy books, such as the Bible, Koran, etc., has claim to be the word of God. However, it's a known fact that the Bible has gone through many translation, and many changes, etc. So how can anyone be sure that the Bible really is the word of God? Also why do Christians need to believe that The Bible contain the word of God, I mean why can't it just simply be a book to guide you on how to live? Of course it can be both, but my question still stands.

Now the Koran, it hasn't really gone through the many changes and translation that the bible has gone through, but it was still written by man (Muhammad) and you can't tell me that Muhammad didn't inject his own spins in the book. However, I'm not really qualified to comment on the Koran so I'll just shut up now.

Theres at least two Holy books that claim to be the word of God, maybe more. However, are they really? Were they really meant to be the word of God? For all we know they could've really just started out as guide on how to live life, and through the ages, got change into what we known them to be today.

At least with some religion, like Asatru, they admit that their Eddas are nothing more than stories, nothing more than myth, but the stories show how to live, and how to be a good person.

What are the purpose of any 'Holy' Books?

Cash revenue.

Cash revenue.

That can be said about anything though.

My religion has a holy web page. All hail his noodly appendage.

I think the problem begins when people start claiming the book itself has a purpose, a Platonic form of a purpose which exists on another plane and is the epitome of purpose for that book. I think it's a lot simpler than that. I think a book, holy or otherwise, has the purpose that the individual ascribes to it. If you're looking for a universal truth, you're likely to find one. If you're looking for entertainment, you're likely to find that too. If you're looking for hypocrisy or contradiction, voila!

It's a personal experience, is what I'm saying, or it should be anyway. We get into trouble, I think, when we start with the whole "there is one truth and there is only one way to interpret that truth" business. People get killed over that kind of stuff.

I think the problem begins when people start claiming the book itself has a purpose, a Platonic form of a purpose which exists on another plane and is the epitome of purpose for that book. I think it's a lot simpler than that. I think a book, holy or otherwise, has the purpose that the individual ascribes to it. If you're looking for a universal truth, you're likely to find one. If you're looking for entertainment, you're likely to find that too. If you're looking for hypocrisy or contradiction, voila!

It's a personal experience, is what I'm saying, or it should be anyway. We get into trouble, I think, when we start with the whole "there is one truth and there is only one way to interpret that truth" business. People get killed over that kind of stuff.

I agree with you Nazz, and the world will now end. ;) I always thought that religion/spirituality really should be a personal thing, even Jesus told his disciples and followers to pray in private.

If you're looking for a universal truth, you're likely to find one. If you're looking for entertainment, you're likely to find that too. If you're looking for hypocrisy or contradiction, voila!

I'm just looking to get laid. Holy Books work pretty good for that, too.

I agree with you Nazz, and the world will now end. ;) I always thought that religion/spirituality really should be a personal thing, even Jesus told his disciples and followers to pray in private.

Don't be so shocked. I've noticed you getting a bit more introspective and less dogmatic over the last couple of months. Good for you. But be careful. Keep this up and you'll wind up a liberal atheist commie like me. :D

Don't be so shocked. I've noticed you getting a bit more introspective and less dogmatic over the last couple of months. Good for you. But be careful. Keep this up and you'll wind up a liberal atheist commie like me. :D

lol, I doubt I'll go that far, I do believe in a Divinity (or God) and I'll always believe that. :) If you want to read what came to me during meditation, you can read it on my blog.

lol, I doubt I'll go that far, I do believe in a Divinity (or God) and I'll always believe that. :) If you want to read what came to me during meditation, you can read it on my blog.

I'm just messing with you--but that is how it starts. ;)

Not that that is a bad thing. Anything that causes you to focus on the human and the now, as opposed to what may come afterward is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Let whatever will come after this life take care of itself--this is the life we know we have, and as long as we don't go around hurting others unnecessarily, it can be a hell of a life.

I'm just messing with you--but that is how it starts. ;)

Not that that is a bad thing. Anything that causes you to focus on the human and the now, as opposed to what may come afterward is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Let whatever will come after this life take care of itself--this is the life we know we have, and as long as we don't go around hurting others unnecessarily, it can be a hell of a life.

Agreed completely, every religion has their own version of the afterlife, so logically, no one really knows what happens in the next life and plus, if you treat your fellow man as you would treat yourself, to help one another, and basically not be an asshole, then I think you would be rewarded in the next life.

What are the purpose of any 'Holy' Books?The cheap ones make OK rolling paper in a pinch. The rest? Not a fucking clue.

The Bible isn't the literal word of God.. not according to any church I know of, at least.. it's a collection of accounts, some history, some poetry, etc. The Koran is supposedly the literal word of God, but, yeah...

Still, many companies sell Bibles at cost, or give them away free.. there's still plenty of honest religious businessmen, here and there. If you want to read a holy book, check with local religious stored before you pay $20 at Barnes and Noble.

The Koran is supposedly the literal word of God, but, yeah... So's most of the Bible. Most Muslims and Christians consider the books allegorical, sort of like folk tales, only more so.

The Bible isn't the literal word of God.. not according to any church I know of, at least..
How have you missed all the Bible literalists out there? The Creationists? The fundies who are all claiming the US is a christian nation? They're like 30% of the population in the US.

My religion has a holy web page. All hail his noodly appendage.

It also has a holy book. Its purpose is to fund the purchase of a pirate ship, as it clearly states.

During one of my meditation (which I am enjoying a great deal of), a thought came to me. Some holy books, such as the Bible, Koran, etc., has claim to be the word of God. However, it's a known fact that the Bible has gone through many translation, and many changes, etc. So how can anyone be sure that the Bible really is the word of God? Also why do Christians need to believe that The Bible contain the word of God, I mean why can't it just simply be a book to guide you on how to live? Of course it can be both, but my question still stands.

Now the Koran, it hasn't really gone through the many changes and translation that the bible has gone through, but it was still written by man (Muhammad) and you can't tell me that Muhammad didn't inject his own spins in the book. However, I'm not really qualified to comment on the Koran so I'll just shut up now.

Theres at least two Holy books that claim to be the word of God, maybe more. However, are they really? Were they really meant to be the word of God? For all we know they could've really just started out as guide on how to live life, and through the ages, got change into what we known them to be today.

At least with some religion, like Asatru, they admit that their Eddas are nothing more than stories, nothing more than myth, but the stories show how to live, and how to be a good person.
Good, Wilgrove...nice to see you approaching the path to true enlightenment...now for you to continue to proceed until you realize that there is no God...no spirituality of any kind...bweehehehe...

Okay, in all seriousness, it's good to see your experiment in personal spirituality is proceeding well. Always nice to see someone reject organized religion in favour of seeking their own route...it opens the mind and keeps them from allowing a church or a mosque to decide what they do with their lives.

The Bible is the only true Holy Book.

The Bible is the only true Holy Book.

Can you prove that, in any way? You made the claim, so the burden of proof is upon you.

What are the purpose of any 'Holy' Books?Depends on whether they were meant to be considered 'holy' in the first place. E.g. the biblical text wasn't. E.g. the Qur'an was (or so it seems).

The Bible is the only true Holy Book.And that's purpose enough, huh?

The Bible is the only true Holy Book.

Why should I accept as outlandish a claim as that? Why should I believe any scripture is 'true' or 'holy'?

During one of my meditation (which I am enjoying a great deal of), a thought came to me...

An old thread, that might resonate with your current thinking, maybe. :)

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11991186&postcount=1

(thread: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11991186#post11991186)

Holy books are the earnest attempts of uneducated philosophers to clinch the truth. Of the randomly enlightened to nail their personal epiphany down, to make it tangible. Of little Hitlers to make great art.

Real writers who even attempt the hard questions approach "where did we come from?" "why are we here?" and "is that all there is?" with at least a little modesty and humour, a touch of humility and admission of subjective frailty. But the holy are, by human standards, crazy. They don't consider the consequences of their words, don't guard against the worldly types who will try to make of an earnest swipe at the truth a law to exclude all other possibilities.

How have you missed all the Bible literalists out there? The Creationists? The fundies who are all claiming the US is a christian nation? They're like 30% of the population in the US.

The fact that there are four gospels with four slightly different accounts is enough for most hardcore Christians to settle on the Bible being "divinely-inspired," etc., rather than the literal word of God. Some evangelicals will call the Bible the "inspired word," or something similar, but there's a difference between something being inspired and something being mouthed by God himself, in human language..

With the Koran, you supposedly have a human being taken over by God and used to record His wishes.. some ordinary guy going into a trance and spitting out God's Word. Even if certain evangelicals or Orthodox Jews like to act as if the Bible is God's literal wording (or single word, to some Jews), there's nothing comparably literal, and hermeneutics is alive and well in both traditions. Assigning authority to a text isn't the same as declaring it literal truth. Evangelicals may give Scripture such weight that it isn't to be questioned, but it's still a second-hand account.

In any case, Creationists aren't necessarily literalists.. you can be a Creationist without believing that any of the Bible is literally true.. it requires only faith in the inspired accuracy of Page 1. You can call the U.S. a "Christian" nation without even being a Christian.. some traditionalists exhort others to adopt "Judeo-Christian" values regardless their acceptance of a god, etc. Appeals to tradition are pretty common. Neither position requires belief in the Bible being the literal word. I'm sure at least someone believes the Bible to have been spoken by God in some way, but it's nowhere near an orthodox understanding.

On second thoughts, calling the writers of holy books "philosophers" is unfair to both. Philosophers address the individual mind, holy thinkers address all humanity. Philosophers can change a mind, theologians can change society. The narrower the focus, the more predictable the results.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/Goomg/photoshop/muahahaha.jpg

[/IMG]what's your point, really?

During one of my meditation (which I am enjoying a great deal of), a thought came to me. Some holy books, such as the Bible, Koran, etc., has claim to be the word of God. However, it's a known fact that the Bible has gone through many translation, and many changes, etc. So how can anyone be sure that the Bible really is the word of God? Also why do Christians need to believe that The Bible contain the word of God, I mean why can't it just simply be a book to guide you on how to live? Of course it can be both, but my question still stands.

Now the Koran, it hasn't really gone through the many changes and translation that the bible has gone through, but it was still written by man (Muhammad) and you can't tell me that Muhammad didn't inject his own spins in the book. However, I'm not really qualified to comment on the Koran so I'll just shut up now.

Theres at least two Holy books that claim to be the word of God, maybe more. However, are they really? Were they really meant to be the word of God? For all we know they could've really just started out as guide on how to live life, and through the ages, got change into what we known them to be today.

At least with some religion, like Asatru, they admit that their Eddas are nothing more than stories, nothing more than myth, but the stories show how to live, and how to be a good person.

Yeah. I think it's overly arrogant to say that a certain book is the word of god and anything else is bullshit. I think some of the advice in holy books, like loving and tolerance, should be followed, but every word of scripture shouldn't be severely enforced. Unfortunately, some theocracies enforce every word of scripture with a severe punishment.

Also why do Christians need to believe that The Bible contain the word of God, I mean why can't it just simply be a book to guide you on how to live?

Because it would be meaningless, subjective to the authors opinion... etc...

Religious people need at least some sort of factual guidance to know what they actually need to do, rather then what one guy has theorized they may need to do.

what's your point, really?

Propaganda, you know, like the fascists used.

Religion and Fascism are the same thing.

Fascigionism. *nods*

Propaganda, you know, like the fascists used.

Religion and Fascism are the same thing.

Fascigionism. *nods*

Godwin!

since not all holy books claim to be the word of god i guess id have to say that the purpose of holy books is "commonality". to provide a base for all followers of that religion to work from. so you share the same stories, have the same origin for your rituals (if any), and have a reason to exclude the holy books of other religions.

Propaganda, you know, like the fascists used.

Religion and Fascism are the same thing.

Fascigionism. *nods*So spelling out 'Allah' is propaganda?

Theres at least two Holy books that claim to be the word of God, maybe more. However, are they really? Were they really meant to be the word of God? For all we know they could've really just started out as guide on how to live life, and through the ages, got change into what we known them to be today.

The honest answer: It varies.
Torah/Tannakh: History of the Jewish People. Instructions on how to live life by Jewish standard. Parables and Metaphorical stories explaining elements of morality.

NT: Revealed "T"ruth of Christ. How to act like a Christian. NOT how to go about being a bigot (Yes, people, I've read the damn book)

Eddas: As you said, stories on how to be a good Norseman/woman. Metaphors about the Gods. Answering questions about how we came into being in a way that is more informative to an 8th century Viking than Big Bang Theory.

Vedas/Upanishads: How to be a good Hindu. Explanation of our existence (Yes, yes, people. They got the age of the universe right, and they called the creation of the universe the sound of the beating of a drum flowing outwards, kinda like the inflationary model. They also thought the earth was formed at the same instant in time. Give it a bloody rest.) in a way that is meaningful to an Indian fellow from 3000+ B.C. Explanation of Indian history, mostly in the form of two great wars/conflicts, and HEAVILY spun:
Mahabharata: Basically a succession war between two factions of cousins, neither of which wanted to share power, one of which was painted as evil and corrupt (by the winners of the conflict) and the other side, which happened to have an Incarnated God on their side (Krishna)
Ramayana: Conflict between Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and mainland India for reasons vaguely similar to the Trojan War. Losing king painted as monster by the winners, winning king deified. Losing king incidentally, as I recall, deified in Sri Lanka.

There's a common vein of "This is how you should act if you want to be in our club," But there are also other elements to the various holy books that differ greatly.

Godwin!

Incorrect. Godwin's Law only references Nazis and Hitler, not fascism in general.

So spelling out 'Allah' is propaganda?

Yes.

Yes.

Isn't Jehovah and YHWH propaganda as well, then?

Yes.As would spelling out 'Yeshua'? Or the open display of a crucifix? Or of a person knelt in prayer?

Isn't Jehovah and YHWH propaganda as well, then?

As would spelling out 'Yeshua'? Or the open display of a crucifix? Or of a person knelt in prayer?

Yes.

And spelling out 'IL Ruffino' ?

Not at all.

Yes.And spelling out 'IL Ruffino' ?

Incorrect. Godwin's Law only references Nazis and Hitler, not fascism in general.

Your facts mean nothing here.

Mahabharata: Basically a succession war between two factions of cousins, neither of which wanted to share power, one of which was painted as evil and corrupt (by the winners of the conflict) and the other side, which happened to have an Incarnated God on their side (Krishna)

I watched a televised version of this... it was 90 episodes long... :)

I watched a televised version of this... it was 90 episodes long... :)

The book is...considerably...longer. I've only ever read a watered down children's version of it, years ago. I got the gist of the story, without any of the moral implications, and completely missed out on reading perhaps the one meaningful portion of it: The Bhaghvad Gita.