NationStates Jolt Archive

Illegal immigrants cause many social problems in USA. Like increased crime or overburdened infrasture (schools, etc...). The primary pro argument for them seems to be economic.

But even from an economic point of view, they may not be beneficial. Calculations made by this man: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12.cfm may be incorrect but they make sense. Poor people will pay less taxes. Illegal immigrants may not have much rights, such as access to healthcare but they do spend tax money. Like sending their children to schools, hence more schools need to be built. Or places they live. More homes mean more infrasture (roads, electric lines etc..) needed. Of course economic calculations are complex. Poor people may get more money from the state than they pay in taxes, but they are cheap labour, which makes rich people richer (and hence make them pay more taxes). So this whole question may be invalid.

But the question is: wouldnt it be better both for the US AND for the rest of the world, if US deports illegal immigrants and saves money, and instead spends that money as aid to developing countries? 15 million deported illegal immigrants may live worse but much more than that may live better as a result of this.

And dont say who will do the jobs only illegal immigrants would do. If Americans dont do them, employers will have to pay more (and hence more social equality, more wages from rich to poor...).


$2.2 trillion illegal alien taxpayer sticker shock
2/3 of immigrants cost Americans $22,449 a year, shows new study
Posted: April 11, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

WASHINGTON – Someone has finally fixed an approximate taxpayer cost of between 12 million and 15 million illegal aliens residing in the U.S.

A new study by the Heritage Foundation's Robert Rector found a household headed by an individual without a high school education, including about two-thirds of illegal aliens, costs U.S. taxpayers more than $32,000 in federal, state and local benefits. That same family contributes an average of $9,000 a year in taxes, resulting in a net tax burden of $22,449 each year.

Over the course of the household's lifetime that tax burden translates to $1.1 million.
...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55135

the logic behind the economic problems is that poor people aren't profitable to the state which is bullshit on an industrial scale even the unemployed are profitable so long as they raise children (considering how much care costs compared to paying people enough to live)

I'd like to add that your other "facts" have some shaky ground if more children go to American schools how is that a problem just like everyone else the nation will profit on its investment as they jobs and thus pay taxes

Like increased crime or overburdened infrasture (schools, etc...).
Believe me, it's the school board's and county's failure to account for legitimate neighborhood growth that overburdens infrastructure.

Illegal immigrants may not have much rights, such as access to healthcare but they do spend tax money.
And they pay all sorts of taxes they can never directly collect on.

Bollocks... I know in the UK to get a child into education the parent is required to show proof of child benefit. To get child benefit you must have a national insurance number... in effect the government must know about you. If they do know about you then they've probably have figured out that you're an illegal immigrant if you are one. If they know you're an illegal immigrant then their probably in the middle of deporting you. Illegal immigrants do not get access to the welfare state.

Bollocks... I know in the UK to get a child into education the parent is required to show proof of child benefit. To get child benefit you must have a national insurance number... in effect the government must know about you. If they do know about you then they've probably have figured out that you're an illegal immigrant if you are one. If they know you're an illegal immigrant then their probably in the middle of deporting you. Illegal immigrants do not get access to the welfare state.

Here the reasoning has been exactly the opposite. Texas, arguably the most conservative state in the union, tried to pass a law that said that any child with a Hispanic last name had to provide proof of legal residency. The law was struck down with the ruling that the public school system is required to provide an education, even to the children of illegal immigrants.

I know for a fact that NYC public schools strictly forbid any efforts, even casual questions at PTA meetings, to determine the residency status of families whose children attend.

Not this shit again.

First, the Heritage Foundation is notoriously Xenophobic (to put it mildly), I'd expect nothing less from one of their 'experts'.

Second, the vast majority of acknowledged economic experts say the economic impact of illegal immigrants is slightly postive. They're not gonna pull our country out of any economic slump but in no way are they going to drive us into one either. They just happen to be the scapegoat-de-jour these days. Even if we could somehow get rid of all of them and somehow prevent any more from coming in, the net result would most likely be a small economic downtrend.

Libertarian solution:

1. Create a quick, and efficient, immigration process so that potential threats to the US can be separated from people that want to just join the nation peacefully.

2. Do away with all the social services, then you will see a massive decline in illegal immigrants.

The best way to deal with this is by giving all workers, regardless of status, the same employee rights to minimum wage, OSHA oversight &c.

Of course that will never happen because Wall Street likes the undocumented workforce because they keep wage inflation down.

The best way to deal with this is by giving all workers, regardless of status, the same employee rights to minimum wage, OSHA oversight &c.

How can you document the undocumented? Naturalization!

How can you document the undocumented? Naturalization!

Because that means the federal government will require like a billion forms and six years to naturalize people, so they'll skip it and carry on being undocumented.

Anyway, what advantage is there to being naturalized. It's not like real americans vote anyways.

Most Americans don't pay taxes. I do, but I'm self-employed. Most Americans are not self-employed. Most Americans are employed by someone else and of them, most don't pay taxes. Employers take taxes. When you get your paycheck, taxes are gone. But here's the rub: These employers that hire illegal immigrants LOVE illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants don't complain about minimum wage. They don't complain about poor health benefits. They don't complain about unsafe work conditions or illegal labor practices. Employers don't need to pay unemployment insurance for illegal immigrants. They don't need to worry about pensions or matching 401k funds.

The only thing better than illegal workers are desperate illegal workers. Which is exactly why employers are all for tightening border security. As long as it doesn't become impenetrable, of course. The harder, more dangerous and more expensive it is to get in, the more shit illegal immigrants will eat to stay in this country and work cheap.

Let's suppose that $2.2 trillion figure is correct. Guess who is getting the lion's share of that money? I'll give you a hint; it isn't Paco. :p

Did you know that many illegal immigrants actually file, and PAY, their federal taxes? Saw a report on it on World News Tonight. Kinda shoots down the tax burden argument . . .

Did you know that many illegal immigrants actually file, and PAY, their federal taxes? Saw a report on it on World News Tonight. Kinda shoots down the tax burden argument . . .

Interesting. Don't you need proper documentation to file a W-4?

I'd like to disclaim the following post by saying that its 4 AM in my time zone, and therefore I cannot be held responsible for any inconsistency or logical flaws.

I mean, everyone's problem with illegal immigrants is that they are illegal, yeah?

I am relatively knew to the whole paying taxes thing, but as I understand, in the USA if you earn below a certain amount, the federal government actually refunds all or part of what you have paid in as taxes.

But everyone's problem is (in my understanding) with poor undocumented workers. Who most likely, would get a return on income taxes if they were legal and paid them.

So, in conclusion...they contribute to the economy, provide cheap labor, and if they were legal would actually cost the taxpayer more.

On a somewhat related note, did anyone hear about the people who were hired to build the border fence getting in trouble for hiring illegals to do the labor? I <3 Irony. (havent been around nsg much, sorry if there's already been a thread on this)

2. Do away with all the social services, then you will see a massive decline in illegal immigrants.That fairytale is harder to believe than the one where the wolf dresses up like grandma. Contrary to what those who want to surround our country with razor wire want you to believe, most immigrants are simply looking for a oportunity to earn a decent life for themslves. Many have no grasp of the concept of 'social services' until they get to this country.

You want to see a massive decline in illegal immigration? Help raise the standard of living in third world countries. It doesn't take a genius to see that anyone living in a shack with no electicity or running water surrounded by desease and suffering with no prospects locally to improve their lot in life might want to get to someplace where they have a chance to live a better life.

Someone once told me they thought of immigration the way lots of people think about marijuana: It should be legal so that it can be regulated.

Did u know that sometimes we deport criminals without telling the country to which we are returning them that they are criminals? So they are out on the streets of their own country, causing problems there, instead of here. Its just really irresponsible of us.

Interesting. Don't you need proper documentation to file a W-4?Many use fictitious or 'borrowed' social security numbers (and names) to file a W-4. They pay taxes like everyone else via payroll witholding but don't file a tax return. Since most are entitled to a refund due to their earning level, the government actually makes a little extra off of them.

Interesting. Don't you need proper documentation to file a W-4?

I'm not sure what sort of forms they were filing, only that the report was about them filing their taxes and the fact that the IRS will not tip off immigration. They don't care if you're legal, they don't care if your source of income is legal, they just want their share of your money.

Many use fictitious or 'borrowed' social security numbers (and names) to file a W-4. They pay taxes like everyone else via payroll witholding but don't file a tax return. Since most are entitled to a refund due to their earning level, the government actually makes a little extra off of them.

And lets not forget such things as the sales tax, they don't get out of paying that just because they don't have US ID . . .

Two Trillion dollars... Where have I heard that figure before?

Oh yeah, that's how much the "adventure" in Iraq is going to ultimately cost.

http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00138

"Two scholars, one a Nobel Prize winner, revisit their estimate of the true cost of the Iraq war – and find that $2 trillion was too low. They consider not only the current and future budgetary costs, but the economic impact of lives lost, jobs interrupted and oil prices driven higher by political uncertainty in the Middle East."

That fairytale is harder to believe than the one where the wolf dresses up like grandma. Contrary to what those who want to surround our country with razor wire want you to believe, most immigrants are simply looking for a oportunity to earn a decent life for themslves. Many have no grasp of the concept of 'social services' until they get to this country.

You want to see a massive decline in illegal immigration? Help raise the standard of living in third world countries. It doesn't take a genius to see that anyone living in a shack with no electicity or running water surrounded by desease and suffering with no prospects locally to improve their lot in life might want to get to someplace where they have a chance to live a better life.

Then we need an efficient naturalization process that will weed out terrorists. Help enrich other nations? It's not my problem that those nations cannot operate properly, I believe that the government should eliminate foreign aid.

it's never a good sign when you start off with an empirically untrue statement. the only people in this country who are disproportionately less represented in our prison system than rich white people are dirt fucking poor immigrants.

What are you? A racist?

Illegal immigrants cause many social problems in USA. Like increased crime...

it's never a good sign when you start off with an empirically untrue statement. the only people in this country who are disproportionately less represented in our prison system than rich white people are dirt fucking poor immigrants.

Then we need an efficient naturalization process that will weed out terrorists. Help enrich other nations? It's not my problem that those nations cannot operate properly, I believe that the government should eliminate foreign aid.Just curious, where do you draw the line on what is 'your problem'? Your front door? Your neighborhood? Your city? County? State? Country?

It's all one world pal. Like it or not it's all interconnected. Isolationism is a myth.

Many use fictitious or 'borrowed' social security numbers (and names) to file a W-4. They pay taxes like everyone else via payroll witholding but don't file a tax return. Since most are entitled to a refund due to their earning level, the government actually makes a little extra off of them.
I assume that if the US IRS is anything like the NZ one, they don't particularly care who files a tax return or where you're getting the money from - as long as you file one.

In NZ, afaik, the IRD can't forward details onto the police. You can be an illegal immigrant or be making money from criminal activities (they even have a box on the form for that) and it don't matter to them, as long as you pay tax on your income.

I read somewhere recently that illegals in the States actually have lower crime rates than any other group. Which makes sense - if you smuggled yourself into the US for the purposes of making better money, last thing you'd do is draw unwanted police attention to yourself.

Just curious, where do you draw the line on what is 'your problem'? Your front door? Your neighborhood? Your city? County? State? Country?

It's all one world pal. Like it or not it's all interconnected. Isolationism is a myth.

What "problem"? The government only has a right to preserve individual liberty WITHIN the nation, and right to property. Other than protecting the citizenry from foreign aggressors, the government bares no responsibility to citizens of other nations.

The biggest problem with illegal immigrants is overcrowding.
The constant influx of illegals into the States has gotten way beyond ridiculous.
What's even worse is, I've heard that a bunch of political idiots want to give ILLEGAL immigrants Social Security benefits.
So...they don't contribute to it, but they would get to collect on it?
If we didn't go so far out of our way to "take care of" people "in need," illegals would stay wherever they come in from....EXCEPT those with malicious intent.
A lawbreaker is a lawbreaker; I don't want more criminals in my country.
If they don't respect the law enough to enter the country LEGALLY, why not just subject them to execution?
That would stem the tide of illegals, and give the Republican gun nuts something to shoot.
Everyone's happy.

What "problem"? Read your own post.Then we need an efficient naturalization process that will weed out terrorists. Help enrich other nations? It's not my problem that those nations cannot operate properly, I believe that the government should eliminate foreign aid.Has the light gone on now as to what I was reffering to?The government only has a right to preserve individual liberty WITHIN the nation, and right to property. Other than protecting the citizenry from foreign aggressors, the government bares no responsibility to citizens of other nations.Okaaaay... except nowhere was I talking about government responsibility. I was questioning your personal responsibility torwards the fellow inhabitants of this rock we're all riding through space together.

Libertarian solution:

1. Create a quick, and efficient, immigration process so that potential threats to the US can be separated from people that want to just join the nation peacefully.

2. Do away with all the social services, then you will see a massive decline in illegal immigrants.
Which is one reason why the libertarian political view is retarded.

But the question is: wouldnt it be better both for the US AND for the rest of the world, if US deports illegal immigrants and saves money

Nope. Deportation is expensive. That's one reason why Nazi Germany - who I'm guessing you have a good deal of respect for - changed from deporting Jews to executing them. You'd do well to be honest and advocate gas chambers yourself.

If they don't respect the law enough to enter the country LEGALLY, why not just subject them to execution?

Oh look, speaking of advocating genocide. Looks like at least one anti-immigrant fascist wannabe on this forum has the balls to be honest about their murderously stupid politics. Anyone else?

<snip arrant nonsense>

Worldnetdaily is not a credible source, for starters.

Illegal immigrants don't come to the US to sit on their asses and collect benefits.

They come here because even the low wage jobs they take are better pay than what they would receive back home in Mexico or El Salvador.

They work, get it?

These people are trash and shit and crazy to you and this whole fucking world. You don't care where they live or how they feel, or what they eat or how they feed their kids or how they pay the doctor if they get sick, and yes they are stupid and bored and weak, but they are still your responsibility.

These people clean your house. They cook your meals. Drive your cars. Take away your trash. Build your buildings. Fix your roads. Guard your properties.

Don't fuck with them.

Then we need an efficient naturalization process that will weed out terrorists.

So far all of our terrorists have either entered on legal Visas or we born in this country. Again, kinda ruins your argument doesn't it?

From a person that is the target of hispano-phobia.

Most persons in the US do not even know that Puerto Rico is a US territory, and that persons born are full US citizens.

Some of the arguments that I hear all the time about immigration
-They are here ilegally, and are sending their kids to our schools, causing a higher number of students blah blah blah
A-Unless you are in the mostly hispanic areas of the border or Cali, the cause of growth in the schools is "white" folks moving in the area. Whites are still the majority in most of the country, last time I remember.

-They are not buying any homes, so they are not paying property taxes to pay for the schools, services, etc.
A-All those years that I was renting to save to buy my house....everytime that the taxes went up, so did my rent. As a matter of fact, when you look at the number of individual homes versus apartment construction, more apartments are being built on an average. So I guess that we must stop building apartments, since the renters won't be paying property taxes.

-They are not paying their fair share of the taxes.
A-We have to pay property taxes in our vehicles in NC to renew our license plates. Plus, there is the sales tax on everything from non food items, fuel, utilities, restaurant meals, and breathing air in NC

-Oh, but their paycheck gets sent somewhere else, it does not stay here .
A-Unless your mortgage holder, bank, utility company, grocery chain store or whatever other store; if it is not headquartered in your town, your money has just left town.........same for insurance, etc.

-But they are responsible for having to expand the infrastructure
A-Bull!!! The infratstructure is built and paid for (which means the buyer) by the contractor that builds the housing or development. They have to meet city code to tap onto water/sewer, electrical, roadway, etc. The city does not pay for any of the infrastructure of a new construction. As a matter of fact, the city will not approve any development that will cost the city any money until it can be completed.

-But they are taking all these jobs that belong to good ole Americans!!!
A-Give me a break. Everytime you say that, I want to slap you with the Jobs Wanted section of the Sunday paper. Why the Sunday paper? Because that section is larger than any other in the paper, and will hurt when rolled up.

The problem is the same as with the war on drugs. No real enforcement of the large corporations that hire them, no real enforcement of persons that are bringing them into the country. So we will stage a few raids everynow and then to let people see we care.

If the government is serious about the problem, I have the perfect solution. Implement the US Foreign Legion. They get to join, and after five years of honorable service, they are granted full US citizenship. Hey, that is the same as the French Foreign Legion; which are some of the toughest soldiers in the world (don't confuse bravery of soldiers with cowardice of politicians please). And like the French do, send them to fight the wars. Who cares if they die? They are not our citizens.

Of course, we can always hire the former East German Border Patrol. After all, how many people were able to escape the Iron Curtain?

Just my thoughts....Y'all take care.

Vic Cruz-Saez

Libertarian solution:

1. Create a quick, and efficient, immigration process so that potential threats to the US can be separated from people that want to just join the nation peacefully.

2. Do away with all the social services, then you will see a massive decline in illegal immigrants.

3. As an added benefit, you'll be seeing thousands of poor minorities starving in the streets! :headbang:

There are a few myths and half-truths being tossed around in this thread on both sides, so I'd like to point them out.

First, my credentials. I'm half-latino half white and yeah, a lot of the hispanic half of my family is or has been in this country illegally. Brace yourselves for some truth.

"Illegals pay taxes like everybody else."

Correction: SOME do. Those who manage to find permanent type jobs do pay into Social Security/Medicare and Taxes. (They get a temporary visa to get into the country and obtain an ID number, then overstay their visa.)

However, daylaborers don't. They get paid under the table. The only taxes they actually pay are sales taxes or property taxes, etc... The incidental stuff, but ot income tax.

"They do the jobs Americans won't do."

Don't kid yourselves. These people aren't all janitors/cleaning staff/ditch diggers. Most of the ones in my family worked construction which is a job Americans will gladly do. It pays well, especially if you work hard. My dad was an electronics technician and could fix anything that had to be plugged into a wall, with a specialty in Televisions.

"They don't come here for welfare"

That's mostly false but not completely. Usually what happens is one person (the head of household) comes for the ability to work and make money, then sometimes bring their family because the health care is better, social services are better, schooling is better.

"They contribute to the community"

Sometimes. Hispanic communities around this area tend to be decent neighborhoods that are clean and reasonably safe. The problem is that these areas also tend to breed gangs, which ARE a problem. Not exclusively an immigrant problem, but it's not helping.

"They don't break laws"

That's no more or less true than the national average, but consider this: By knowingly breaking Immigration law they've already showed a willingness to ignore US law for their own benefit. Keep that in mind.

"Sending money home isn't their main purpose"

Mostly false. Right now, Mexico's biggest source of revenue is money sent home from Mexicans living in the USA.

My dad and I frequently disagree strongly on this issue, because I believe that immgration law shoudl be more strictly enforced. he feels it's much too difficult to enter the US "the right way" and maybe he's right. What we need is a system that makes it easier, so that people will have an incentive to do it right. Immigration is a good thing. Undocumented immigration is asking for trouble. Why?

Because in an age where terrorism is on the move and in a world where there are unaccounted for missing nukes, a porus border is a scary thing.

My dad and I frequently disagree strongly on this issue, because I believe that immgration law shoudl be more strictly enforced. he feels it's much too difficult to enter the US "the right way" and maybe he's right. What we need is a system that makes it easier, so that people will have an incentive to do it right. Immigration is a good thing. Undocumented immigration is asking for trouble. Why?

Because in an age where terrorism is on the move and in a world where there are unaccounted for missing nukes, a porus border is a scary thing.

I really was not kidding about starting something like the US Foreign Legion. Lets face it, if they are willing to give 5 years of honorable military service in return for full citizenship, I say go for it. What better way to prove your intent and loyalty to the new country you want to live in? And like your father says, it takes someone following legal ways over 10 years on average to go thru all the hoops. Plus, right now we have "foreigners" serving in our military in Iraq and Afghanistan very honorably and bravely; and when they come home from the war, they are still not citizens. Is it right that if they are willing to fight for our government, that they cannot earn the rights of citizenship?

And, thank you very much for adding to some other things I meant to say.

Vic Cruz-Saez

Mostly false. Right now, Mexico's biggest source of revenue is money sent home from Mexicans living in the USA.

Mexico's main source of foreign export revenue is crude oil.

As for remmittances, they make up a huge 1.6% of Mexico's GDP. $18 billion.

In 2003 however, US Customs and Border Protection brought in $24 billion to the US government. Seems to me like the US is profiting more from illegal immigration than Mexico is. An illegal immigration trade balance, if you will, which the US has the surplus.

What we need is a system that makes it easier, so that people will have an incentive to do it right.

I agree. The US makes it very difficult to immigrate or even just enter the country legally, and the anti-immigration crowd wants to make it MORE difficult.