NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2055148,00.html

Tony Blair yesterday claimed the spate of knife and gun murders in London was not being caused by poverty, but a distinctive black culture. His remarks angered community leaders, who accused him of ignorance and failing to provide support for black-led efforts to tackle the problem.

One accused him of misunderstanding the advice he had been given on the issue at a Downing Street summit.

Black community leaders reacted after Mr Blair said the recent violence should not be treated as part of a general crime wave, but as specific to black youth. He said people had to drop their political correctness and recognise that the violence would not be stopped "by pretending it is not young black kids doing it".

For those of you in the UK, do you think Blair is right, or wrong, or...

I thought most firearms and knives were illegal in the UK, and that the ones that were legal were severely regulated?

I thought most firearms and knives were illegal in the UK, and that the ones that were legal were severely regulated?

You can murder someone with a steak knife. Hard to regulate those.

Wait, this can't possbily be right.

Someone needs to explain to mr blair and to that newspaper that this can't be the case, because guns and knives are banned in the UK.

Doesn't he know that guns and knives are illegal? There is no way this stuff could happen!

Yes and no. I would call it ghetto culture. Also, a strong argument against his claim is glasgow, shit loads of stabbings there and almost everyone is white.

Yes and no. I would call it ghetto culture. Also, a strong argument against his claim is glasgow, shit loads of stabbings there and almost everyone is white.

not necessarily much better, saying that people who live in the ghetto are bad because they are there? Like it's a given that poor people will kill each other for no other reason than they are poor.

You can murder someone with a steak knife. Hard to regulate those.

all the things we use to eat with you can use to kill someone be just as Hard to regulate them too

Does any factor correlate with crime as strongly as poverty?

I don't know...extreme wealth?

not necessarily much better, saying that people who live in the ghetto are bad because they are there? Like it's a given that poor people will kill each other for no other reason than they are poor.

No thats not really what I am saying at all. I think it's more to do with this glamorous view that many black teenagers have of gang culture (or ghetto culture). I think they like the idea of the "respect" that a gang can provide you, as well as being influenced by gangs over in the US which at times can be slightly glamorised causes kids to want to be part of this tough dog eat dog culture. I don't know many (though I know of a few) white kids who try to recreate this ghetto life, as it just looks odd on them.

not necessarily much better, saying that people who live in the ghetto are bad because they are there? Like it's a given that poor people will kill each other for no other reason than they are poor.

Does any factor correlate with crime as strongly as poverty?

Does any factor correlate with crime as strongly as poverty?

Well, here in the US, even when you compare poor whites to poor blacks, poor blacks are far more likely to commit murder (and the majority of victims are other poor blacks). They have higher rates of violent crime than any other group of "poor" in the US.

But that doesn't mean it's because they're "black". There's something else going on (and no, it isn't "the white man is keeping us down").

Does any factor correlate with crime as strongly as poverty?
Crime rates, reported crimes, number of criminals...

... as far as any that aren't circular, I can't think of any.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2055148,00.html



For those of you in the UK, do you think Blair is right, or wrong, or...


I hate to say it but he is right.

I live in a predominantly black area of London, and a very rough area too. I have been here for 14 years and and have seen right outside my block on avarage about 3 stabbings and two shootings over the last 5 or so of them years.

In every incedent it has been black youth against black youth.

This is the truth of the matter.

(and no, it isn't "the white man is keeping us down").

Actually, in america I think segragation had a lot to do with it.

Actually, in america I think segragation had a lot to do with it.

We haven't been segregated for most of my life.

Well, here in the US, even when you compare poor whites to poor blacks, poor blacks are far more likely to commit murder (and the majority of victims are other poor blacks). They have higher rates of violent crime than any other group of "poor" in the US.

But that doesn't mean it's because they're "black". There's something else going on (and no, it isn't "the white man is keeping us down").

rap culture

No thats not really what I am saying at all. I think it's more to do with this glamorous view that many black teenagers have of gang culture (or ghetto culture). I think they like the idea of the "respect" that a gang can provide you, as well as being influenced by gangs over in the US which at times can be slightly glamorised causes kids to want to be part of this tough dog eat dog culture. I don't know many (though I know of a few) white kids who try to recreate this ghetto life, as it just looks odd on them.


There is a definate stance within black youth culture about not backing down, rather kill somebody than look a pussy in front of your boys.

Well, here in the US, even when you compare poor whites to poor blacks, poor blacks are far more likely to commit murder (and the majority of victims are other poor blacks). They have higher rates of violent crime than any other group of "poor" in the US.

But that doesn't mean it's because they're "black". There's something else going on (and no, it isn't "the white man is keeping us down").

That doesnt address my question though.

Taken as a whole, does any factor correlate with crime better than poverty.

Poor black people may do more crime than poor white people, but poor people do more crime than well-to-do people, for obvious reasons.

I hate to say it but he is right.

I live in a predominantly black area of London, and a very rough area too. I have been here for 14 years and and have seen right outside my block on avarage about 3 stabbings and two shootings over the last 5 or so of them years.

In every incedent it has been black youth against black youth.

This is the truth of the matter.

I don't believe you, that can't be true.

Maybe you didnt know, but guns are banned in London.

I don't believe you, that can't be true.

Maybe you didnt know, but guns are banned in London.

eh? whats your point? They are still getting guns anyway.

eh? whats your point? They are still getting guns anyway.

But a gun ban prevents gun crime! This is IMPOSSIBLE.

Someone should tell those violent criminals that guns are BANNED

But a gun ban prevents gun crime! This is IMPOSSIBLE.

Someone should tell those violent criminals that guns are BANNED

Don't forget to tell them that murder is also illegal, and that the UK has the uber deterrent sentence for murderers - some time in jail.

But a gun ban prevents gun crime! This is IMPOSSIBLE.

Someone should tell those violent criminals that guns are BANNED

Is this an argument for legal gun ownership?

I don't believe you, that can't be true.

Maybe you didnt know, but guns are banned in London.

heh you're funny!

But a gun ban prevents gun crime! This is UNPOSSIBLE.

Someone should tell those violent criminals that guns are BANNED


Fixed it for you. :D

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2055148,00.html



For those of you in the UK, do you think Blair is right, or wrong, or...
The real reason is "blame American black gang culture."

what constitutes "black" in the UK?

what constitutes "black" in the UK?

Ali G

We haven't been segregated for most of my life.

Heh yeah but history, and sociality take a looong time to work them selfes out.

World war 2 was before my life time,but ask my dad ow he feels about the germans, or my granda. It take a few generations to die, and then a few more generations after that to forget about precudices.

We haven't been segregated for most of my life.

and it's a little known fact that the instance segregation ended all the problems that it caused just magically went away.

and it's a little known fact that the instance segregation ended all the problems that it caused just magically went away.

No, but most of the problems for poor blacks were caused by warehousing them in enormous projects.

Projects that were intentionally closed and the people dispersed in the 1990s.

You can trace a rise in crime to the number of warehoused, along with a precipitous drop in violent crime when the projects were closed.

It was not segregation that caused the black on black violence - it was the goodwill socialist ideal of warehousing the poor in concentrated public housing that caused it.

It also caused a precipitous increase in drug use, teen pregnancies, and rates of incarceration - towers of despair, a friend of mine used to call the projects.

It isn't because they're black. It isn't because of old segregation. It's because some asshole decided that the best way to "help" them was to pile them all in one place.

Remember the "Great Society"? Well, that was it.

Ali G

that didnt help.

its an honest question. as an american i know what constitutes "black" here. that doesnt mean its the same in the UK, eh?

its an honest question. as an american i know what constitutes "black" here. that doesnt mean its the same in the UK, eh?

:confused:

I believe to be black, you must be.... well.... black.

that didnt help.

its an honest question. as an american i know what constitutes "black" here. that doesnt mean its the same in the UK, eh?
Actually, it is. If I am correct, it is the black culture portrayed through the current cheap rap that is seeping over there and ruining their youth.

Well, here in the US, even when you compare poor whites to poor blacks, poor blacks are far more likely to commit murder (and the majority of victims are other poor blacks). They have higher rates of violent crime than any other group of "poor" in the US.

But that doesn't mean it's because they're "black". There's something else going on (and no, it isn't "the white man is keeping us down").

Yeah, because they're at the bottom of the heap. Here we have smack addicted shit bags coked up to their eyeballs blasting each other on a regular basis and every fucking one of them is a "whitey".

Yeah, because they're at the bottom of the heap. Here we have smack addicted shit bags coked up to their eyeballs blasting each other on a regular basis and every fucking one of them is a "whitey".

Not true. There are plenty of whiteys at the bottom of the heap here, and their interpersonal violence rate is nowhere near as high.

It was a little social experiment called the Great Society that warehoused enormous numbers of urban poor blacks in projects that caused all of this.

I don't believe you, that can't be true.

Maybe you didnt know, but guns are banned in London.
Sarcasm about banning things is now banned. As of this moment, all sarcasm/irony on the subject is impossible. This is for your own good. Think of the children (but in an appropriate manner).

and it's a little known fact that the instance segregation ended all the problems that it caused just magically went away.

That and making up excuses as to why they don't improve their own lives. Troubles among minorities can't all be blamed on race problems.

:confused:

I believe to be black, you must be.... well.... black.

NO ONE is black.

does "black" in the UK mean "those of substantial subsaharan african descent"?

Not true. There are plenty of whiteys at the bottom of the heap here, and their interpersonal violence rate is nowhere near as high.

It was a little social experiment called the Great Society that warehoused enormous numbers of urban poor blacks in projects that caused all of this.


But if poor whites werent shoved together in these 'projects' and poor blacks were...surely that treatment puts them effectively in the worst position (crammed urban tenements - ghettoes) and therefore at the bottom of the ....

But if poor whites werent shoved together in these 'projects' and poor blacks were...surely that treatment puts them effectively in the worst position (crammed urban tenements - ghettoes) and therefore at the bottom of the ....

Poor whites by and large lived in rural areas - they were already spread out.

Poor blacks were already concentrated in the cities.

No one had to relocate very far in either case to get their public housing.

NO ONE is black.

does "black" in the UK mean "those of substantial subsaharan african descent"?


Right...you're banned too. No arguing.

Right...you're banned too. No arguing.

i dont see why no one can give me a straight answer. its not like the world isnt full of darkskinned people who might qualify as "black" somewhere.

NO ONE is black.

does "black" in the UK mean "those of substantial subsaharan african descent"?

as most of them are i say yes

NO ONE is black.

does "black" in the UK mean "those of substantial subsaharan african descent"?
Yes, and also "subsaharan Africans who we put on Jamaica to help with the plantations over there"

Yes, and also "subsaharan Africans who we put on Jamaica to help with the plantations over there"

thank you.

i dont see why no one can give me a straight answer. its not like the world isnt full of darkskinned people who might qualify as "black" somewhere.

If we are talking about being literal than no one is black. You really can't call whites white either for that matter, maybe peaches instead. Pinkish maybe.

If we are talking about being literal than no one is black. You really can't call whites white either for that matter, maybe peaches instead. Pinkish maybe.

thats why i asked for a definition of what "black" means in the UK.

No thats not really what I am saying at all. I think it's more to do with this glamorous view that many black teenagers have of gang culture (or ghetto culture). I think they like the idea of the "respect" that a gang can provide you, as well as being influenced by gangs over in the US which at times can be slightly glamorised causes kids to want to be part of this tough dog eat dog culture. I don't know many (though I know of a few) white kids who try to recreate this ghetto life, as it just looks odd on them.

are you saying that black youth in the UK strive to emulate the US black stereotypes they see from american media?

are you saying that black youth in the UK strive to emulate the US black stereotypes they see from american media?
Everyone is this thread has me ignored don't they?

anyone see The_pantless_hero around lately?

are you saying that black youth in the UK strive to emulate the US black stereotypes they see from american media?

Yes, thats one factor I reckon.

thats why i asked for a definition of what "black" means in the UK.

Black simply means you have black skin.

In the US the same kind of thing. If you just came from Mars and wanted to know what areas had the highest amounts of crime (both violent and property) all you would need to ask is which areas had the highest percentages of blacks and/or Hispanics.

There is no doubt that poverty and other economic conditions have an impact. But much can also be blamed on a "ghetto" culture that is linked to crime, violence, and an anti-achievement mentality.

Of course no leader in the US would ever have the balls to say that crime was linked to culture. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Martin Luther King III and the rest of the race pimps out there would pounce on him faster than you could say "nappy headed."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2055148,00.html



For those of you in the UK, do you think Blair is right, or wrong, or...

White kids, black kids, they all commit violence.

Everyone is this thread has me ignored don't they?

just trying to nail down one thing at a time. now that i know what "black" is, i went back to the beginning to try to figure out why there is some kind of "black culture" in the UK that leads to criminal behavior.

Wouldn't the ghettos be a symptom of segregation mentality though? Deciding to put all the black people in one place because of economic status and race sure sounds like it. So with classism being coupled with racism and just a poor plan on how to "help" the situation (with quotes because I think the poor plan probably has to do with people not taking it seriously), can see how "ghetto culture" could arise from a feeling of alienation and help perpetuate stereotypes .

Black simply means you have black skin.

so blair might have been referring to people who come from areas in south asia? or those with significant australian aborigine descent? maybe some from other pacific island countries?

how "black" does your skin have to be to be considered BLACK? does it have to be the color of a chocolate candy bar or can it be more of a brown paper bag color and still count?

The real reason is "blame American black gang culture."

Actually, it is. If I am correct, it is the black culture portrayed through the current cheap rap that is seeping over there and ruining their youth.

do other people agree with this?

are the black youth of the UK so pathetic that they take their self image from crappy US rap videos?

If you look at the US and the FBI's UCR, blacks commit almost half the murders, nearly 1/3 of all rapes, nearly 1/3 of the aggravated assaults and over half of the armed robberies, yet they represent only 14% of the total population thus they commit crime in far greater numbers than they represent in the population as a whole. And not all of these can simply be dismissed by the usual clap-trap of "poverty" and "legacies of slavery" or "racism."

This is something that people like Bill Cosby and others have addressed, but the snakeoil salesmen like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Martin Luther King III, Julian Bond, etc refuse to address. Much easier to blame whitey than look at the cultural rot found in the black underclass.

If you look at the US and the FBI's UCR, blacks commit almost half the murders, nearly 1/3 of all rapes, nearly 1/3 of the aggravated assaults and over half of the armed robberies, yet they represent only 14% of the total population thus they commit crime in far greater numbers than they represent in the population as a whole. And not all of these can simply be dismissed by the usual clap-trap of "poverty" and "legacies of slavery" or "racism."

This is something that people like Bill Cosby and others have addressed, but the snakeoil salesmen like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Martin Luther King III, Julian Bond, etc refuse to address. Much easier to blame whitey than look at the cultural rot found in the black underclass.

So you don't see racism and clasism as a contributing factor to that "cultural rot"?

I wonder if you have the statistics on what percentage of the inner-city poor, where most of this is taking place, are made up of ethnic minorities.

Wouldn't the ghettos be a symptom of segregation mentality though? Deciding to put all the black people in one place because of economic status and race sure sounds like it. So with classism being coupled with racism and just a poor plan on how to "help" the situation (with quotes because I think the poor plan probably has to do with people not taking it seriously), can see how "ghetto culture" could arise from a feeling of alienation and help perpetuate stereotypes .

Again in the US...

housing restrictions (where you can live) ended in the 1960s. It is not as people here have to live in a certain area, but that seems to be the desire of most groups in the US. Blacks tend to want to live among other blacks, Hispanics among other Hispanics, etc (Asians except for a few major US cities and the State of Hawai'i) are simply too small in number to form majority-minority areas.

Today this is a case of self-segregation rather than government mandated segregation.

Ironically, two of the things that was meant to break both the racist practice of segregation (the Fair Housing Act) and Poverty (the Great Society programs) allowed the Ghetto culture of the inner city to flourish in the first place.

So you don't see racism and clasism as a contributing factor to that "cultural rot"?
Racism and classism cannot rot a culture by themselves. The members of that culture have to start it. If those cultures did not revel in persecution and the glorification of a gang culture, would the rot be half as bad?

So you don't see racism and clasism as a contributing factor to that "cultural rot"?

I wonder if you have the statistics on what percentage of the inner-city poor, where most of this is taking place, are made up of ethnic minorities.

Racism was much worse in say the 1940s than today. Economic improvements among blacks are the best that have ever been at any category you wish to look at--education, wages, home ownership, business starts, etc. But crime rates among blacks are higher now than they were 60 years ago or even 40 years ago among blacks (even as crime as a whole has declined), the illegitmacy rate among blacks is almost 70% (in the 1960s when the Kerner Commission found that almost half of black births were to unwed mothers it was considered an outrage--in one Georgia county the rate is 90%.) 90%? That is a culture in serious decline.

And it is not taking place in just the inner city. Clayton County which is not in the inner city of Atlanta but was once a rural, mostly white county--now as a majority black county has one of the highest violent crime rates in the state.

For those of you in the UK, do you think Blair is right, or wrong, or...Tony's a ****, as usual.

Backstreet subcultures typically begin to incorporate seriously dangerous shit when social problems escalate. It's not got shit to do with blacks or ethnicities in general, it's just that certain subcultures appeal to certain ethnic groups.

I'm sure Pakistanis were severely underrepresented in the skinhead violence statistics of the late 70s/early 80s.

So, somehow, the same "black culture" is blamed for crime in the United States and crime in the United Kingdom.

What's the similarity between the two?

Hmm... maybe a pattern of racism and economic deprivation?

:rolleyes:

So, somehow, the same "black culture" is blamed for crime in the United States and crime in the United Kingdom.

What's the similarity between the two?

Hmm... maybe a pattern of racism and economic deprivation?

:rolleyes:
I wasn't aware racism against black people was a problem in the UK. In fact, I have been told it wasn't.

The similarity between the two is the gang culture glorified in the current hip hop culture.