NationStates Jolt Archive

Just like the title says. Why do people believe in this religion? There are obviously many non-Christians here; what do you think is going on here?

Christ's life provided a tremendous example of what it meant to be virtuous, and offered forgiveness from sin and eternal life. That's a pretty strong motivation at a time when sin was virtually impossible to avoid.

For the same reason that people aren't. It's what they believe.

What do you mean by the second question?

Just for kicks and giggles / spiritual happiness / Myrth, of course!

Because all the cool kids are christian these days.

It's actually pretty simple. If someone pounds the idea into your head for your entire life, you're going to believe it. It would take an incredible amount of intelligence, reasoning, or some other event to serve as a catalyst to shake you from your religious mindset.

Personally. I don't like believing in things that there are no evidence for. Believing in a god (the Christian god, specifically) seems as utterly ridiculous as believing that there is a 3 foot tall purple spotted elephant that lives in my garage (that cant be seen or felt of course). These two things both have the same amount of evidence for their existence: Zero.

So why are people christians? Because they don't like to analyse things. That would be my best guess.

It's actually pretty simple. If someone pounds the idea into your head for your entire life, you're going to believe it. It would take an incredible amount of intelligence, reasoning, or some other event to serve as a catalyst to shake you from your religious mindset.

Personally. I don't like believing in things that there are no evidence for. Believing in a god (the Christian god, specifically) seems as utterly ridiculous as believing that there is a 3 foot tall purple spotted elephant that lives in my garage (that cant be seen or felt of course). These two things both have the same amount of evidence for their existence: Zero.

So why are people christians? Because they don't like to analyse things. That would be my best guess.

And so what was going on in the early days of Christianity when no one was pounding the idea into your hea for your entire life, when Christians were in fact persecuted en masse for their faith?

Because they can.

It's actually pretty simple. If someone pounds the idea into your head for your entire life, you're going to believe it. It would take an incredible amount of intelligence, reasoning, or some other event to serve as a catalyst to shake you from your religious mindset.

Personally. I don't like believing in things that there are no evidence for. Believing in a god (the Christian god, specifically) seems as utterly ridiculous as believing that there is a 3 foot tall purple spotted elephant that lives in my garage (that cant be seen or felt of course). These two things both have the same amount of evidence for their existence: Zero.

So why are people christians? Because they don't like to analyse things. That would be my best guess.
There is an enormous amount of evidence that God exists. There are official Roman records about the life of Jesus, including the miracles he performed. In addition to the accounts in the Bible, many people have recorded astounding acts performed. There are Egyptian hieroglyphs depicting the parting of the Red Sea.
People simply ignore this evidence because the idea that there is no God has been "pounded into their heads their entire life" and they don't like to be told anything that contradicts what they already think they know.
Oh, and I'd like to see you prove that there is no invisible, intangible purple elephant in your garage.

It's actually pretty simple. If someone pounds the idea into your head for your entire life, you're going to believe it. It would take an incredible amount of intelligence, reasoning, or some other event to serve as a catalyst to shake you from your religious mindset.

So why are people christians? Because they don't like to analyse things. That would be my best guess.

Well, your best guess is both judgmental and wrong. I am a Christian. I know there is no logical basis for my belief. I have analysed my beliefs many times. I have analysed the evidence, which tells me that scientifically my beliefs are impossible. Which is why I have an issue with them being enforced by governments, schools or other outlets. I have tried to convince myself not to believe, because, quite frankly, I feel a bit foolish for my belief, knowing what I know. But I can't convince myself to not believe. I don't hold the Bible as literally true. But I can't divest myself of the belief in God and Jesus (whether he was divine or not is a question I can't answer to myself).

By the way, my parents never forced my thinking one way or another. I tried a lot of different religions on for size when I was a kid. Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, atheism, paganism and Wicca, even dabbled with elements of Satanism (very poorly, I'm quite straightlaced).

So please don't make sweeping judgments of people. Not every Christian is a fundy nutcase who has never stepped outside the bounds of the Bible.

And so what was going on in the early days of Christianity when no one was pounding the idea into your hea for your entire life, when Christians were in fact persecuted en masse for their faith?

Are you being serious with this statement, do you genuinely not know the answer?

Science, thought, and reason were not nearly as prevailant or developed then as they are today. Religion in general started because of mankind's inablility to explain phenomena that were beyond their understanding at the time. (lightning, disease, etc, were all "acts of god")

It's actually pretty simple. If someone pounds the idea into your head for your entire life, you're going to believe it. It would take an incredible amount of intelligence, reasoning, or some other event to serve as a catalyst to shake you from your religious mindset.

Personally. I don't like believing in things that there are no evidence for. Believing in a god (the Christian god, specifically) seems as utterly ridiculous as believing that there is a 3 foot tall purple spotted elephant that lives in my garage (that cant be seen or felt of course). These two things both have the same amount of evidence for their existence: Zero.

So why are people christians? Because they don't like to analyse things. That would be my best guess.

QFT.

It's easier. They're taught to be Christian from a young age, and most of the people they know are Christian, it's just less effort to be the same. It's also the reason that (in the UK at least) there are a lot of lip service Christians, they call themselves christian almost by default, have some basic belief in it but don't go to church, pray or really try and follow christian ideals more than they intersect with their personal morals.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that God exists. There are official Roman records about the life of Jesus, including the miracles he performed. In addition to the accounts in the Bible, many people have recorded astounding acts performed. There are Egyptian hieroglyphs depicting the parting of the Red Sea.
People simply ignore this evidence because the idea that there is no God has been "pounded into their heads their entire life" and they don't like to be told anything that contradicts what they already think they know.
Oh, and I'd like to see you prove that there is no invisible, intangible purple elephant in your garage.
The onus of proof is on those claiming something. You start by assuming there is nothing and go from there. There is no proof of a God ergo you assume there is no God. The Romans were often a credible lot, they believed in miracles and hence if someone said that it happened than they could well believe them. Also links?

Because they don't want to be [insert other (non)religious group here].

Why are people Christian?

I'm a Christian for tax purposes.

Well, your best guess is both judgmental and wrong. I am a Christian. I know there is no logical basis for my belief. I have analysed my beliefs many times. I have analysed the evidence, which tells me that scientifically my beliefs are impossible. Which is why I have an issue with them being enforced by governments, schools or other outlets. I have tried to convince myself not to believe, because, quite frankly, I feel a bit foolish for my belief, knowing what I know. But I can't convince myself to not believe. I don't hold the Bible as literally true. But I can't divest myself of the belief in God and Jesus (whether he was divine or not is a question I can't answer to myself).

By the way, my parents never forced my thinking one way or another. I tried a lot of different religions on for size when I was a kid. Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, atheism, paganism and Wicca, even dabbled with elements of Satanism (very poorly, I'm quite straightlaced).

So please don't make sweeping judgments of people. Not every Christian is a fundy nutcase who has never stepped outside the bounds of the Bible.

I specifically said it was a guess to protect myself from making a sweeping generalization. I cannot fathom why anyone who would stare in the face of complete absense of evidence would still hold religious beliefs. From what you say, you don't quite understand it either. You just believe, that's it.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that God exists. There are official Roman records about the life of Jesus, including the miracles he performed. In addition to the accounts in the Bible, many people have recorded astounding acts performed. There are Egyptian hieroglyphs depicting the parting of the Red Sea.
If by "evidence" you mean "Some one wrote it down, it must be true." then yes. There are MOUNDS of evidence in favor of a god.

Then again, I have a book that says a man named Pecos Bill once roped a tornado. Do I believe it as fact when there's no evidence to support it? No.

If by "evidence" you mean "Some one wrote it down, it must be true." then yes. There are MOUNDS of evidence in favor of a god.

Then again, I have a book that says a man named Pecos Bill once roped a tornado. Do I believe it as fact when there's no evidence to support it? No.

SO written evidence doesn't count as evidence anymore? Wow, history will need som reworking now there's no proof that Queen Elizabeth I existed. In fact, there's no evidence that anything at all happened before the camera was invented.

I specifically said it was a guess to protect myself from making a sweeping generalization. I cannot fathom why anyone who would stare in the face of complete absense of evidence would still hold religious beliefs. From what you say, you don't quite understand it either. You just believe, that's it.




Well, I should probably read more carefully, since I didn't notice the guess bit. I did when I reread your post but. Sorry.

No I don't understand why I believe. I don't believe in the Bible as a literal document or interpretation of God's word, but I can't change my belief in God. I believe. I don't know why. I know it's illogical. I just can't help it.

SO written evidence doesn't count as evidence anymore? Wow, history will need som reworking now there's no proof that Queen Elizabeth I existed. In fact, there's no evidence that anything at all happened before the camera was invented.

Look at my second sentence before you blindly bash my skepticism.

"Then again, I have a book that says a man named Pecos Bill once roped a tornado. Do I believe it as fact when there's no evidence to support it? No."

That is a written account, does it make it true? No.

And as for your poor comparison: Did Queen Elizabeth leave behind more things than just written accounts to prove her existence? Yes she did, but that's irrelevant anyway, since the history in question is not ridiculous in nature.

SO written evidence doesn't count as evidence anymore? Wow, history will need som reworking now there's no proof that Queen Elizabeth I existed. In fact, there's no evidence that anything at all happened before the camera was invented.

We have documents signed in her hand, we have her body, we have portraits of her. We also have a range of documentation that corroborates her existence.

We have no portraits of Christ, no body, no part of the Cross on which he was crucified. There is as much evidence to support the Christian God as to support the pantheon of Norse gods, Roman and Greek gods. So why believe in the Christian God?

Look at my second sentence before you blindly bash my skepticism.

"Then again, I have a book that says a man named Pecos Bill once roped a tornado. Do I believe it as fact when there's no evidence to support it? No."

That is a written account, does it make it true? No.

And as for your poor comparison: Did Queen Elizabeth leave behind more things than just written accounts to prove her existence? Yes she did, but that's irrelevant anyway, since the history in question is not ridiculous in nature.

Why is it up to you to decide what is ridiculous and what isn't?

So what if a written account doesn't automatically make it true? It still destroys your arguement that there is zero evidence. You can't just go around labelling things 'ridiculous' because they contradict your own unproven ideas and disregarding evidence because it doesn't provide 100% proof.

No matter how you lay the facts out, there is a 50% chance that God exists. If he doesn't want to show himself, he won't and if a creature with the same amount of power God is attributed with chooses not to prove its existance, then, just like your hypothetical elephant, we have just as little proof that he doesn't exist as proof he does. I chose to put my faith in the 50% that say yes, you chose the 50% that says no. Neither position is stronger.

Are you being serious with this statement, do you genuinely not know the answer?

Science, thought, and reason were not nearly as prevailant or developed then as they are today. Religion in general started because of mankind's inablility to explain phenomena that were beyond their understanding at the time. (lightning, disease, etc, were all "acts of god")

I am absolutely serious.

Rather I consider the joke to be the statement that humans didn't have as much "thought" two thousand years ago as humans do today. You offer no evidentiary claims for your statements. For mine, I offer a vast body of records, Roman and otherwise, attesting to the vast and sweeping persecution of humans Christians.

Show me in the Bible where lightning is explained as being caused by God. Anywhere.

We have documents signed in her hand, we have her body, we have portraits of her. We also have a range of documentation that corroborates her existence.

We have no portraits of Christ, no body, no part of the Cross on which he was crucified. There is as much evidence to support the Christian God as to support the pantheon of Norse gods, Roman and Greek gods. So why believe in the Christian God?

We have numerous portraits of Chirst. And how do you expect a piece of wood to last that long?
I agree, it is as reasonable an assumption to believe that the Norse or Greek gods exist. But my God is the one I chose.

Why is it up to you to decide what is ridiculous and what isn't?

So what if a written account doesn't automatically make it true? It still destroys your arguement that there is zero evidence. You can't just go around labelling things 'ridiculous' because they contradict your own unproven ideas and disregarding evidence because it doesn't provide 100% proof.

No matter how you lay the facts out, there is a 50% chance that God exists. If he doesn't want to show himself, he won't and if a creature with the same amount of power God is attributed with chooses not to prove its existance, then, just like your hypothetical elephant, we have just as little proof that he doesn't exist as proof he does. I chose to put my faith in the 50% that say yes, you chose the 50% that says no. Neither position is stronger.

The notion of a god is ridiculous because there is 0% evidence to support it. Written account does not equal evidence, anyone with a pencil and paper can make a written account of something. That doesn't mean it happened. It's not evidence.

"No matter how you lay the facts out, there is a 50% chance that God exists."

I have a giant invisible and intangible giraffe, sitting in a lounge chair in my living room. By your logic, there is a 50% chance it exists. You can't prove me wrong.

SO written evidence doesn't count as evidence anymore? Wow, history will need som reworking now there's no proof that Queen Elizabeth I existed. In fact, there's no evidence that anything at all happened before the camera was invented.

Really? Once I went to a museum and I saw a sword from the period of Queen Elizabeth. There were clothes that she used there, and it was all proven by the use of Carbon 14.

Also, I saw pictures of the castles and cities she was in. I dont think they were built in the last 23 years, that is when I was born.

And when you go to Greece, or to Rome, you can SEE the coliseum, acropolis, statues and monuments from 2000 years ago.

Now, can you see god in anything life has given us? No. Statues? Churchs? Those arent proof god existed at all.

Please my friend, think a bit.

And, btw, why are people christian? Because its easy. You are born as a chirstian, and all you need to do is go twice a year to the church.

The notion of a god is ridiculous because there is 0% evidence to support it. Written account does not equal evidence, anyone with a pencil and paper can make a written account of something. That doesn't mean it happened. It's not evidence.

"No matter how you lay the facts out, there is a 50% chance that God exists."

I have a giant invisible and intangible giraffe, sitting in a lounge chair in my living room. By your logic, there is a 50% chance it exists. You can't prove me wrong.

Of course I can't. For all we know, this giraffe may very well exist. What is your point?

The real question is:

WTFRU NECK???? http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=facebook11wm7.jpg

We have numerous portraits of Chirst. And how do you expect a piece of wood to last that long?
I agree, it is as reasonable an assumption to believe that the Norse or Greek gods exist. But my God is the one I chose.

Who is Chirst? Not sure I know him, is he some evil twin or something?

If you mean Christ however, find me a portrait painted of him, in his lifetime that can be verified as being Christ. Not something painted by a Renaissance or European artist commissioned by the church or state or both.

Plenty of pieces of wood have lasted that long. Longer even.

Of course I can't. For all we know, this giraffe may very well exist. What is your point?

What is your point?
My point is that you are religious because you dont know anything about logic and reason. You have just proved my point by accepting the fact that I could have an invisible, intangible giraffe sitting in a lounge chair in my living room. You have no regard for the scientific method or the burden of proof. You have abandoned reason for faith. It is useless to argue with you any further. Do not bother responding to this, I will not have anything more to do with you.

Really? Once I went to a museum and I saw a sword from the period of Queen Elizabeth. There were clothes that she used there, and it was all proven by the use of Carbon 14.

Also, I saw pictures of the castles and cities she was in. I dont think they were built in the last 23 years, that is when I was born.

And when you go to Greece, or to Rome, you can SEE the coliseum, acropolis, statues and monuments from 2000 years ago.

Now, can you see god in anything life has given us? No. Statues? Churchs? Those arent proof god existed at all.

Please my friend, think a bit.

And, btw, why are people christian? Because its easy. You are born as a chirstian, and all you need to do is go twice a year to the church.

I admit that it was a stupid comparison. But I find it very offensive to suggest that my faith is nothing more than a convenience. I was not raised Christian. For the most part, I raised myself. I found my faith on my own and I chose to believe in it.
If anything, people are atheistic because it is easy.
Note: I don't actually believe that atheism is merely a creation of convenience. It is a faith position, just like any other, and I'm not trying to belittle people's right to believe in it the way you are doing to me. But you cannot deny that it is easier than Christianity, since it requires no comittment at all.

And, btw, why are people christian? Because its easy. You are born as a chirstian, and all you need to do is go twice a year to the church.

I refer you to my previous post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12536243&postcount=10). Please don't generalise.

My point is that you are religious because you dont know anything about logic and reason. You have just proved my point by accepting the fact that I could have an invisible, intangible giraffe sitting in a lounge chair in my living room. You have no regard for the scientific method or the burden of proof. You have abandoned reason for faith. It is useless to argue with you any further. Do not bother responding to this, I will not have anything more to do with you.

Like being condescending, elitist, and smug do you?

Who cares if people believe in religion? I personally don't and so long as the fundamentalists are held at bay it doesn't harm anyone. And just because someone is religious doesn't mean they know nothing about "logic and reason." Condescending indeed.

Like being condescending, elitist, and smug do you?

Who cares if people believe in religion? I personally don't and so long as the fundamentalists are held at bay it doesn't harm anyone. And just because someone is religious doesn't mean they know nothing about "logic and reason." Condescending indeed.
"And just because someone is religious doesn't mean they know nothing about "logic and reason." Condescending indeed."

You may want to read this thread. I didn't say he "knew nothing about logic and reason." because he was religious. Someone else in this thread is religious, but used logic and reason to determine that his/her faith was irrational, and I fully accepted that.

I said this particular person knew nothing of logic and reason because he specifically disregarded it in his argument with me. He abandoned scientific method in favor of faith.

Like being condescending, elitist, and smug do you?

Who cares if people believe in religion? I personally don't and so long as the fundamentalists are held at bay it doesn't harm anyone. And just because someone is religious doesn't mean they know nothing about "logic and reason." Condescending indeed.


QFT. I would rather not believe, because I can see the logical impossibility of what I believe. I feel rather foolish at times. But I can't change what I believe. Just as you and other [insert religious/non-religious/miscellaneous group here] can't.

Here's a "what if" for you... what if Christianity happens to be true, and that if you reject God you go to hell for eternity when you had the chance to believe? Taking some time to read the Bible through might not be a bad idea.

Another question to ponder... The nature of nothing is that it stays nothing. Particles, atoms, energy, whatever, cannot come from nothingness. So there must be some being to whom nothingness is not a factor to make all this stuff. Thoughts?

I am a Christian on a side note and I am not using these musings to lead someone to believe what the Bible says, because basically what the Bible says does not agree with sinful mans reasoning and never will. Of course if you were God and outside the laws of existence, not to mention made those same laws, I don't think it'd really matter what "evidence" there was one way or the other.

"And just because someone is religious doesn't mean they know nothing about "logic and reason." Condescending indeed."

You may want to read this thread. I didn't say he "knew nothing about logic and reason." because he was religious. Someone else in this thread is religious, but used logic and reason to determine that his/her faith was irrational, and I fully accepted that.

I said this particular person knew nothing of logic and reason because he specifically disregarded it in his argument with me. He abandoned scientific method in favor of faith.

Please disregard my previous post. I misinterpreted the same as New Genoa. I feel dumb now.

Here's a "what if" for you... what if Christianity happens to be true, and that if you reject God you go to hell for eternity when you had the chance to believe? Taking some time to read the Bible through might not be a bad idea.

Another question to ponder... The nature of nothing is that it stays nothing. Particles, atoms, energy, whatever, cannot come from nothingness. So there must be some being to whom nothingness is not a factor to make all this stuff. Thoughts?

I am a Christian on a side note and I am not using these musings to lead someone to believe what the Bible says, because basically what the Bible says does not agree with sinful mans reasoning and never will. Of course if you were God and outside the laws of existence, not to mention made those same laws, I don't think it'd really matter what "evidence" there was one way or the other.

Here's a "what if" for you... what if Christianity happens to be true, and that if you reject God you go to hell for eternity when you had the chance to believe? Taking some time to read the Bible through might not be a bad idea.
Scaring me into believing will not make me believe something that has no logical basis. As for your second point: I'm an atheist, I have read the bible in it's entirety, and parts of the Qur'an.

Another question to ponder... The nature of nothing is that it stays nothing. Particles, atoms, energy, whatever, cannot come from nothingness. So there must be some being to whom nothingness is not a factor to make all this stuff. Thoughts?

You say nothing can come from nothingness, there has to be a creator, but then where did the creator come from? if he came from nothingness, then you just contradicted yourself, and it turns out nothing CAN come from nothingness. If you say he "always existed" then why cant we say the universe "always existed"?

There are Egyptian hieroglyphs depicting the parting of the Red Sea.

Interesting. Last week I saw a shoq on NGC where they claimed that the were no Egyptian records of the exodus. Link?


Oh, and I'd like to see you prove that there is no invisible, intangible purple elephant in your garage.

There's a problem here - you can't prove that something isn't there. Therefore, the real question should be: can you prove that there's a elephant in the garage?

If by "evidence" you mean "Some one wrote it down, it must be true." then yes. There are MOUNDS of evidence in favor of a god.

The vikings were real - I can read about them and I can see the artifacts they left behind. I can read about God, but where are the artifacts?

The vikings were real - I can read about them and I can see the artifacts they left behind. I can read about God, but where are the artifacts?
I was being sarcastic.

My point was that written accounts does not equal evidence. I am an atheist.

My point is that you are religious because you dont know anything about logic and reason.
Logic and reason have nothing to do with faith. Faith by definition is belief in that which has no supporting evidence.
You have just proved my point by accepting the fact that I could have an invisible, intangible giraffe sitting in a lounge chair in my living room.
You could. It's rather unlikely, but you could.
You have no regard for the scientific method or the burden of proof. You have abandoned reason for faith.
Since you're so fond of the burned of proof you'll be happy to shoulder it yourself and prove these two claims.
It is useless to argue with you any further. Do not bother responding to this, I will not have anything more to do with you.

Condescension will get you nowhere.

I was being sarcastic.

My point was that written accounts does not equal evidence. I am an atheist.

I know. I actually agree with you and tried to build upon your argument.

I probably didn't make that very clear in my post...

Since you're so fond of the burned of proof you'll be happy to shoulder it yourself and prove these two claims.
Why good sir. You proved that in the very first sentence you typed! Allow me to show you.

Logic and reason have nothing to do with faith. Faith by definition is belief in that which has no supporting evidence
Obviously by having faith he has disregarded his logic. It says so right here
Faith by definition is belief in that which has no supporting evidence

Logic and reason have nothing to do with faith. Faith by definition is belief in that which has no supporting evidence.


And that's the problem. You can't argue with someone who just "believes". Nothing you say or do will ever convince them that you're right.

Here's a "what if" for you... what if Christianity happens to be true, and that if you reject God you go to hell for eternity when you had the chance to believe? Taking some time to read the Bible through might not be a bad idea.
So I take it that you try to follow other religions too, to hedge your bets.

Another question to ponder... The nature of nothing is that it stays nothing. Particles, atoms, energy, whatever, cannot come from nothingness. So there must be some being to whom nothingness is not a factor to make all this stuff. Thoughts?
Something cannot come from nothing
Thus everything had to be created
Thus there had to be a creator
The creator is something
Thus the creator cannot come from nothing
A thing cannot create itself
The creator must have a creator
That creator must also have a creator
And so on, and so on


I am a Christian on a side note and I am not using these musings to lead someone to believe what the Bible says, because basically what the Bible says does not agree with sinful mans reasoning and never will. Of course if you were God and outside the laws of existence, not to mention made those same laws, I don't think it'd really matter what "evidence" there was one way or the other.
Well it was "sinful men" who wrote the Bible, so why can't it agree with "sinful man's reasoning".

And that's the problem. You can't argue with someone who just "believes". Nothing you say or do will ever convince them that you're right.

But why would you want to prove yourself right? Even if you do, what have you accomplished apart from destroying a major source of happiness in someone's life.

And btw, South Ivory, I've thought about it and I can now admit that my position is not strong. I have no proof that God exists. But that's the nature of faith. Probably the main reason I believe is because I need to. If I didn't think there was more to life than what we can prove with our own limited senses, I would probably just kill myself. Luckily, I'm in no danger of being convinced out of my faith. God got me through thirteen years of horror. You may not need God in your life, but I do, very much.

But why would you want to prove yourself right? Even if you do, what have you accomplished apart from destroying a major source of happiness in someone's life.

And btw, South Ivory, I've thought about it and I can now admit that my position is not strong. I have no proof that God exists. But that's the nature of faith. Probably the main reason I believe is because I need to. If I didn't think there was more to life than what we can prove with our own limited senses, I would probably just kill myself. Luckily, I'm in no danger of being convinced out of my faith. God got me through thirteen years of horror. You may not need God in your life, but I do, very much.
If making people happy is the only thing religion accomplishes, then people might as well do drugs, and make themselves happy that way.

I'm not endorsing drugs, I'm just making a point.

And proving myself right isn't important in every situation. In this case, I'm just arguing on the internet. I have no real goal here.

As a closing note, I'm glad you have something that helps you through your life, religion can be a very useful tool. Thank you for not trying to convert others.

Why good sir. You proved that in the very first sentence you typed! Allow me to show you.


Obviously by having faith he has disregarded his logic. It says so right here
Bah, it sucks when you don't have a rebuttal :(
And that's the problem. You can't argue with someone who just "believes". Nothing you say or do will ever convince them that you're right.

But how do you know you're right?

Ok chaps, so much quoting so little time. I am a Christian, an anglican not a catholic however.

I agree with most of the statements above, religion is a way to answer the unanswerable, but then wouldn't we be in utter anarchy if we knew for certain that God did not exist and there was nothing after this life.

Religion not only brings stability for the mind and for society, it also helps to highlight moral issues in life.

If I refer to the title of this thread "why are people Christian?", I would like to point out that everyone has a different reason.

A few of the main reasons are as I examined above; stability, hope etc.

I often have doubts in my faith, as I'm sure many people who are critical about their own faiths do. I try to challenge my beliefs with your arguments but often they just get stronger.

In the end it boils down to whether God exists or are we just all wasting our time?

I personally believe he does exist, but if he doesn't I'll be the one who lived in the knowledge I had something to hope for and some sort of guidance on how to live a good life rather than living just for myself.

Ok chaps, so much quoting so little time. I am a Christian, an anglican not a catholic however.

I agree with most of the statements above, religion is a way to answer the unanswerable, but then wouldn't we be in utter anarchy if we knew for certain that God did not exist and there was nothing after this life.

Religion not only brings stability for the mind and for society, it also helps to highlight moral issues in life.

If I refer to the title of this thread "why are people Christian?", I would like to point out that everyone has a different reason.

A few of the main reasons are as I examined above; stability, hope etc.

I often have doubts in my faith, as I'm sure many people who are critical about their own faiths do. I try to challenge my beliefs with your arguments but often they just get stronger.

In the end it boils down to whether God exists or are we just all wasting our time?

I personally believe he does exist, but if he doesn't I'll be the one who lived in the knowledge I had something to hope for and some sort of guidance on how to live a good life rather than living just for myself.

but then wouldn't we be in utter anarchy if we knew for certain that God did not exist and there was nothing after this life.

Logical fallacy. Morality can exist without religion.

I'm an atheist. I have never murdered anyone, I have never done one drug in my entire life, not even a sip of alcohol, I have never robbed a bank, I have never robbed a gas station of a candy bar, I have never even taken a dollar out of my moms purse.

People don't need a religious book telling them what is wrong or right.

If making people happy is the only thing religion accomplishes, then people might as well do drugs, and make themselves happy that way.

I'm not endorsing drugs, I'm just making a point.

And proving myself right isn't important in every situation. In this case, I'm just arguing on the internet. I have no real goal here.

As a closing note, I'm glad you have something that helps you through your life, religion can be a very useful tool. Thank you for not trying to convert others.

I can't stand people who try to convert others, like Brickistan does.
And I've tried making myself happy through drugs. Short bursts of euphoria followed by serious health problems, although that may be partially due to the fact that the sadist who was running my life at the time had a rule saying if I wanted drugs, it meant I didn't get to eat for the next two days.
But the point is, from the point of one who believes in a religion, it deosn't just make me happy in life. It also guarentees me happiness in death.

Ok chaps, so much quoting so little time. I am a Christian, an anglican not a catholic however.

I agree with most of the statements above, religion is a way to answer the unanswerable, but then wouldn't we be in utter anarchy if we knew for certain that God did not exist and there was nothing after this life.
Why would we? Surely if we knew that life as we know it now was all there it thaty would make life even more important for us?
Religion not only brings stability for the mind and for society, it also helps to highlight moral issues in life.
How so?

In the end it boils down to whether God exists or are we just all wasting our time?

I personally believe he does exist, but if he doesn't I'll be the one who lived in the knowledge I had something to hope for and some sort of guidance on how to live a good life rather than living just for myself.

You see it as a good thing that you're trying being a good person because God wants you to, and not out of respect for your fellow man? Personally I'd rather do what I believe to be the right thing for no other reason than because it's the right thing to do, not because God will punish me for not doing it.

Please reread my post.

I believe it is being misunderstood.
A. Not trying to scare someone into believeing. As I stated in the later part of the post that I am not using these musings to lead someone to believe, but rather as musings.

B. I said the nature of nothing is that it stays nothing so there must be some being where nothing is not a factor. i.e. he is outside those laws, including the nothing stays nothing law.

C. If you believe what the Bible states then you believe that all it's writings were inspired by God, and that He didn't allow those He chose to write it to err in those writings.

D. I've looked at other religions (though not extensively) and have not yet seen one other than Christianity where eternal salvation it just given to poeple for free and there is nothing they can do to earn it (i.e.: life a good life, do good deeds to counter the bad ones, etc.).

I am Christian because I was raised to be and I see no real reason to change my mind. I accept that my faith is irrational.

I mean, if it turns out to all have been bullshit, what have I lost?

But why would you want to prove yourself right? Even if you do, what have you accomplished apart from destroying a major source of happiness in someone's life.
I can't stand people who try to convert others, like Brickistan does.

I'm not trying to convert anyone. I can't stand people who try to force their faith on me, so why should I try to force mine on you?
We were discussing whether or not God could be proven. And I simply pointed out that he couldn't.

But how do you know you're right?

I see absolutly no evidence for God. I see the scientific laws explaining the world around me.

Of course, that doesn't mean that I'm right. There could be a God - just as there could be a pink elephant in you garage. There could be... but I find it extremly unlikely...

I'm not trying to convert anyone. I can't stand people who try to force their faith on me, so why should I try to force mine on you?
We were discussing whether or not God could be proven. And I simply pointed out that he couldn't.

Ah, my mistake. I thought that you said you were trying to convince people you were right, but all you said was it was impossible to do so. I'm sorry.

B. I said the nature of nothing is that it stays nothing so there must be some being where nothing is not a factor. i.e. he is outside those laws, including the nothing stays nothing law.
Why must there be such a being? Why does the universe need to have a beginning?

C. If you believe what the Bible states then you believe that all it's writings were inspired by God, and that He didn't allow those He chose to write it to err in those writings.
Then God should take a writing course, because the Bible is full of contradictions. Among other things I believe there's a part in the Bible that implies that pi is exactly 3(I saw something on Snopes (www.snopes.com) about some state trying to pass a law forcing people to use pi as 3 because that's what it is in the Bible.
D. I've looked at other religions (though not extensively) and have not yet seen one other than Christianity where eternal salvation it just given to poeple for free and there is nothing they can do to earn it (i.e.: life a good life, do good deeds to counter the bad ones, etc.).

You should look closer at Christianity, because it doesn't work like that at all. To get into heaven you have to follow the 10 commandments and repent for all your sins. That doesn't seem like free eternal salvation to me(salvation from what by the way?)

Oh, and look at Pastafarianism. I don't think they have requirements for getting into Heaven.

Logical fallacy. Morality can exist without religion.

I'm an atheist. I have never murdered anyone, I have never done one drug in my entire life, not even a sip of alcohol, I have never robbed a bank, I have never robbed a gas station of a candy bar, I have never even taken a dollar out of my moms purse.

People don't need a religious book telling them what is wrong or right.

I don't think that is what the OP meant, I think he was on about the nilisim inherent in finding that the answer to the big question, why are we here, is nothing.

Granted many people can handle that knowledge, but the OP asks,(he ask, he did not state)and quite rightly in my opinion, what would happend to the minds of those people that could not handle this?

I was bought up a Christian, and like a previous poster mentioned, its pretty hard to shake when your older, in fact I'm starting to believe it can't even be really done.
There is always a core of belief in you no matter what.
To be honest its not really important, to give up something you believe is right anyway.

My point is that you are religious because you dont know anything about logic and reason. You have just proved my point by accepting the fact that I could have an invisible, intangible giraffe sitting in a lounge chair in my living room. You have no regard for the scientific method or the burden of proof. You have abandoned reason for faith. It is useless to argue with you any further. Do not bother responding to this, I will not have anything more to do with you.

And atheists wonder why people don't like them...

I accept the fact that there's no scientific evidence that my gods exist. That's why it's called faith. I also accept that they may be delusions on my part, or hallucinations, or whatever. However, because my delusions don't hurt anyone, who the hell are you to dictate my beliefs? If I choose to name the moon Bob and paint myself blue every full moon to worship him, am I hurting you (or anyone else, for that matter)? I concede that religious people have done great harm in this world, but in the case of Christianity, they're doing so against the direct wishes of their Savior, and therefore have abandoned Him. To me, it's not so much religion that causes problems, it's people. People are a huge problem.

You choose not to believe in any deity. Fine and dandy, I couldn't care less. Why the hell can't you accord me the same respect, especially since I just acknowledged your point?

And since you're so on about scientific proof, have a look at some of the wilder areas of quantum physics. (The Elegant Universe would be a good start. It's math heavy, but very interesting) There's a wee bit of evidence that points to something outside of us having created everything. Arbitrary Alien Space Bats? Jehovah? Who the hell knows? But it's interesting.

Because all the cool kids are christian these days.

yep it's just Peer Pressure

I thought I was a Christian because I believed that Jesus was the Christ and that he died for my sins.

but, apparently, that's not true, apparently I am a Christian because I am stupid, and bad, and evil, and weak.

Then God should take a writing course, because the Bible is full of contradictions. Among other things I believe there's a part in the Bible that implies that pi is exactly 3(I saw something on Snopes (www.snopes.com) about some state trying to pass a law forcing people to use pi as 3 because that's what it is in the Bible.

and we can assume that you didn't link directly to it because it was false (http://www.snopes.com/religion/pi.htm)?

if you people are going to argue with me about things I believe that have no evidence..........can I do the same with you?

I thought I was a Christian because I believed that Jesus was the Christ and that he died for my sins.

but, apparently, that's not true, apparently I am a Christian because I am stupid, and bad, and evil, and weak.

To borrow from a post I made in a different thread, isn't saying you're a Christian because you believe "that Jesus was the Christ and that he died for your sins" similar to saying you're a vegetarian because you don't eat meat? What you're saying is the definition and not explanation of why you are such.

Of course, I'm sure there are some people who believe what you believe about Jesus that aren't Christians (like actual Devil worshipping Satanists) but they're few and far between.

I thought I was a Christian because I believed that Jesus was the Christ and that he died for my sins.

but, apparently, that's not true, apparently I am a Christian because I am stupid, and bad, and evil, and weak.

Just because those sorts are drawn to religion doesn't make religion, or religious folks in general bad.

Though honestly if I was a Christian I think I'd be screaming quite loudly to distance myself from the Fallwells and Phelps of the world.

To borrow from a post I made in a different thread, isn't saying you're a Christian because you believe "that Jesus was the Christ and that he died for your sins" similar to saying you're a vegetarian because you don't eat meat? What you're saying is the definition and not explanation of why you are such.
I don't really see it that way. How would you answer the question?

Of course, I'm sure there are some people who believe what you believe about Jesus that aren't Christians (like actual Devil worshipping Satanists) but they're few and far between.
you are right, I left off the part where I made a decision to follow Christ. There are tons of people who believe some things about Jesus, but never make that commitment.

Just because those sorts are drawn to religion doesn't make religion, or religious folks in general bad.

Though honestly if I was a Christian I think I'd be screaming quite loudly to distance myself from the Fallwells and Phelps of the world.

I believe I do. I don't think I should have to though. I mean every time some atheist says something idiotic I don't go around saying "all the atheists are stupid". I have a little bit more intelligence than that, but apparently some people don't, and so they have to assume that because one person says something they don't like that it means the whole group thinks that.....some critical thinking skills you got going on there. :rolleyes: I mean if I were to say that once this Mexican stole my license plate (he did) that all Mexicans are thieves....I would be called a racist and stupid and bigoted. However, if someone is to say that all Christians are stupid because Fallwell is an idiot, well, they are enlightened. :rolleyes:

I don't really see it that way. How would you answer the question?


The question is why you believe, not what you believe.

I don't really see it that way. How would you answer the question?

I haven't the slightest idea as I'm not religious myself. I'd imagine that the answer would deal with why you believe in the divinity of Jesus and all the things that go with it.

you are right, I left off the part where I made a decision to follow Christ. There are tons of people who believe some things about Jesus, but never make that commitment.

True, there are far too many people who commit only so far as it doesn't inconvenience them.

Christ's life provided a tremendous example of what it meant to be virtuous, and offered forgiveness from sin and eternal life. That's a pretty strong motivation at a time when sin was virtually impossible to avoid.

I'm sorry but that's just a damn stupid reason. Just because someone did something that you "think" they did, and you agree with it, it doesn't mean you should follow them blindly, espescially once they're dead.
Of all the reasons one could possibly find to agree or follow an idea, that is the dumbest, for all people are mortal, all people make mistakes, and all people lie at some point.
It's just not a good idea:sniper:

I'm sorry but that's just a damn stupid reason. Just because someone did something that you "think" they did, and you agree with it, it doesn't mean you should follow them blindly, espescially once they're dead.
Of all the reasons one could possibly find to agree or follow an idea, that is the dumbest, for all people are mortal, all people make mistakes, and all people lie at some point.
It's just not a good idea:sniper:

Thank you.

It was the sniper smilie that did it; that woke me up from the mental haze I had been trapped in. I feel so...violated. But thanks to you, I have seen the light and am prepared to renounce Jesus forever.

...or I could come to the realization that you're talking out your ass and the smell is awful. ;)

Thank you.

It was the sniper smilie that did it; that woke me up from the mental haze I had been trapped in. I feel so...violated. But thanks to you, I have seen the light and am prepared to renounce Jesus forever.

...or I could come to the realization that you're talking out your ass and the smell is awful. ;)

Shh. Some atheist wants to convert you to atheism.

The question is why you believe, not what you believe.
oh.

I haven't the slightest idea as I'm not religious myself. I'd imagine that the answer would deal with why you believe in the divinity of Jesus and all the things that go with it.
because I do? it's hard to explain. It's possible (as pointed out by Bottle) that I am insane.

I'm sorry but that's just a damn stupid reason. Just because someone did something that you "think" they did, and you agree with it, it doesn't mean you should follow them blindly, espescially once they're dead.
Of all the reasons one could possibly find to agree or follow an idea, that is the dumbest, for all people are mortal, all people make mistakes, and all people lie at some point.
It's just not a good idea:sniper:
Who said anything about following blindly? Most Christians, me included, follow with their eyes wide open. It's only the radical fundies who blindly agree with anything their church says.
Also, your argument far too vague. Because somebody did something, that doesn't mean you should follow them? It depends entirely on what they did. In Jesus's case (we believe) he allowed all who follow him to get into heaven. This isn't a good enough reason?

Shh. Some atheist wants to convert you to atheism.

SO I've heard. They're frustrated that Smunkee and I keep giving Christianity a good name. ;)

Who said anything about following blindly? Most Christians, me included, follow with their eyes wide open. It's only the radical fundies who blindly agree with anything their church says.
Also, your argument far too vague. Because somebody did something, that doesn't mean you should follow them? It depends entirely on what they did. In Jesus's case (we believe) he allowed all who follow him to get into heaven. This isn't a good enough reason?

I thought so, but apparently it's not good enough for some people around here that I made a commitment in my life that doesn't affect them.

I thought so, but apparently it's not good enough for some people around here that I made a commitment in my life that doesn't affect them.

I really hate it when someone's up on their high horse saying "4LL r3L1610n5 r 5700P1D!!!11 NE1 WH0 83L13V35 1N 17 5UXX0R5!!!!!1111"
And you say "Hey, I can believe in what I want."
And they start going "W44444446H!!!1 D0N'7 F0RC3 UR 83L31F5 0N M3!!!!111"

I thought so, but apparently it's not good enough for some people around here that I made a commitment in my life that doesn't affect them.

Foolish girl. You are obviously blinded by your beliefs and must be shown the folly of your life so you can blindly follow theirs. ;)

Shh. Some atheist wants to convert you to atheism.
No real atheists would ever want to skip straight to converting someone to atheism.

Atheists dont want to force atheism on the rest of the world. Atheists want to force free thinking and rationality on the rest of the world. It just so happens that free thinking and rationality usually lead to the conclusion of atheism, which then leads to "Help, help were being oppressed" attitudes from people who think atheists are on a mission to convert.

Regardless of any intentions of christians or atheists, Cipra's argument was very poorly conceived, and just plain stupid. He shouldn't participate in threads like these.

because I do? it's hard to explain. It's possible (as pointed out by Bottle) that I am insane.

This is a discussion my girlfriend and I have had several times recently. She's rather Christian and has a hard time understanding how I can't believe and I have a hard time understanding how she can. It's not that I think she's stupid or insane or anything like that, it's just that there she has something going on that I don't, much as I have something going on that she doesn't. It's also not that I don't believe due to any sort of philosophical or logical reason, it's that I just simply cannot believe it the way I believe a number of other things I take on faith.

The reason I lack belief (which is different from disbelieving) is just as hard for me to explain to you as your reason for believing is hard for you to explain to me.

Foolish girl. You are obviously blinded by your beliefs and must be shown the folly of your life so you can blindly follow theirs. ;)

I don't wanna. :mad: Besides, a clown easily swayed is no clown at all. *nod*

No real atheists would ever want to skip straight to converting someone to atheism.

Atheists dont want to force atheism on the rest of the world. Atheists want to force free thinking and rationality on the rest of the world. It just so happens that free thinking and rationality usually lead to the conclusion of atheism, which then leads to "Help, help were being oppressed" attitudes from people who think atheists are on a mission to convert.

Regardless of any intentions of christians or atheists, Cipra's argument was very poorly conceived, and just plain stupid. He shouldn't participate in threads like these.
You can't just say that. An atheist is someone who believes there is no God in any form and it is undeniable that som try to convert others.
What do you define as a real atheist?

I really hate it when someone's up on their high horse saying "4LL r3L1610n5 r 5700P1D!!!11 NE1 WH0 83L13V35 1N 17 5UXX0R5!!!!!1111"
And you say "Hey, I can believe in what I want."
And they start going "W44444446H!!!1 D0N'7 F0RC3 UR 83L31F5 0N M3!!!!111"

Totally.

I've actually talked to people who think that in order for your religion to TRULY not affect them, you'd have to pray ONLY in private NEVER where others could hear it, and show NO visible signs of your belief like crucifixes, etc. Otherwise, you're forcing them to be exposed to your religion. She even suggested that an ideal separation of church and state would prevent publicly-funded fire departments from putting out a fire in a church.

I'm always reminded of that person when I a post like that on here.

It just so happens that free thinking and rationality usually lead to the conclusion of atheism

When you assert something like this, you should really back this up.

Because it's what God wants. Humans tend to be self centered, they don't realize that God created them for His glory, and that their life's only purpose is to serve Him. I know this sounds harsh, but it easily answers the question of what is the meaning of life. I don't have time to hang around on the forum, so if you want to talk to me about this, drop me a pm. Later.

Totally.

I've actually talked to people who think that in order for your religion to TRULY not affect them, you'd have to pray ONLY in private NEVER where others could hear it, and show NO visible signs of your belief like crucifixes, etc. Otherwise, you're forcing them to be exposed to your religion. She even suggested that an ideal separation of church and state would prevent publicly-funded fire departments from putting out a fire in a church.

I'm always reminded of that person when I a post like that on here.

All I have to say is:headbang:

I don't wanna. :mad: Besides, a clown easily swayed is no clown at all. *nod*

Too true. :)

We should start an American chapter of CIRCA(Clandestine Insurgent Rebel Clown Army). *nod*

Here's a video of them in 'action' in Leeds: http://www.zaskarfilms.com/filmpages/circapage.htm

You can't just say that. An atheist is someone who believes there is no God in any form and it is undeniable that som try to convert others.
What do you define as a real atheist?

A real atheist is someone who is logical enough to have denounced a belief in any god. The type of people that are that logical never want to force anyone into disbelieving, because they know it doesnt work like that.

Free thinking and logic come before it. It's just the natural progression of how things work, if an atheist is saying "Don't believe in god" he's not a real atheist, If an atheist was specifically trying to convert you, they'd start by getting you to consider evidence, logic, reason, or lack thereof. they wouldn't jump right into "you shouldn't believe in god". That would be irrational, and irrational is something atheists aren't.

When you assert something like this, you should really back this up.

Indeed. :)

This is a discussion my girlfriend and I have had several times recently. She's rather Christian and has a hard time understanding how I can't believe and I have a hard time understanding how she can. It's not that I think she's stupid or insane or anything like that, it's just that there she has something going on that I don't, much as I have something going on that she doesn't. It's also not that I don't believe due to any sort of philosophical or logical reason, it's that I just simply cannot believe it the way I believe a number of other things I take on faith.

The reason I lack belief (which is different from disbelieving) is just as hard for me to explain to you as your reason for believing is hard for you to explain to me.
yeah. I totally get why someone wouldn't believe, it's the explaining why I do when most of it comes from personal experience that's not testable, that's where it gets tricky.

You can't just say that. An atheist is someone who believes there is no God in any form and it is undeniable that som try to convert others.
What do you define as a real atheist?
no true Scotsman. the logical fallacy of choice today. :D

When you assert something like this, you should really back this up.

How does it feel to make a post so foolish, that you could look back on it later and feel utter disappointment for what you wrote?

Read the thread, I have already backed it up. In fact, not only have I backed it up, but believers, and generally followers of the christian faith have specifically said their beliefs were irrational.

Oh, btw, seperation of Church and state is not in the constitution (in case anybody thinks it is). It was written in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to calm down a church that thought it would be persicuted if a different denomination of a church was made the established religion of the US. He wanted them to know they would be safe from persecution because the government would not establish a state church.

Totally.

I've actually talked to people who think that in order for your religion to TRULY not affect them, you'd have to pray ONLY in private NEVER where others could hear it, and show NO visible signs of your belief like crucifixes, etc. Otherwise, you're forcing them to be exposed to your religion. She even suggested that an ideal separation of church and state would prevent publicly-funded fire departments from putting out a fire in a church.

I'm always reminded of that person when I a post like that on here.

she who? and, you are not any more "forced to be exposed" to my lifestyle than I am to yours. when do I get to whine?

*drumroll*

Because it's what an individual believes about the state of the world and the supernatural. People are similarly Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Confucian, Zoarastrian, Sikh, Ba'hai, FSM Pirates, and atheists for that reason: Some element of their life up until today that has led them to believe what it is they believe.

I'm an agnostic atheist, because I found the faith of my parents abhorrent in its socially rigid structuring, and the upturned noses that most Brahmin show towards the lower castes. Largely because I'm also a humanist.

I'm not a Christian, and this is precisely because I have read the Bible, I have looked up the evidence, and I have found it all wanting.

My room mate in college was raised Christian, read the Bible several times thorughout his life, and following a crisis of faith, continued to be Christian. Because he felt it had the answers.


There's no cut and dry "Because Christianity is teh only vey!!!!11111" or "They shouldn't be because all the evidence is crap!!!1111" answer. It, by its very nature, HAS to be a personal decision, the reasons for which are almost certainly not unanimous for all, or even a large amount, of Christians.

Edit: for grammar!

*drumroll*

Because it's what an individual believes about the state of the world and the supernatural. People are similarly Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Confucian, Zoarastrian, Sikh, Ba'hai, FSM Pirates, and atheists for that reason: Some element of their life up until today that has led them to believe what it is they believe.

I'm an agnostic atheist, because I found the faith of my parents abhorrent in its socially rigid structuring, and the upturned noses that most Brahmin show towards the lower castes. Largely because I'm also a humanist.

I'm not a Christian, and this is precisely because I have read the Bible, I have looked up the evidence, and I have found it all wanting.

My room mate in college was raised Christian, read the Bible several times thorughout his life, and following a crisis of faith, continued to be Christian. Because he felt it had the answers.


There's no cut and dry "Because Christianity is teh only vey!!!!11111" or "They shouldn't be because all the evidence is crap!!!1111" answer. It, by its very nature, HAS to be a personal decision, the reasons for which are almost certainly not unanimous for all, or even a large amount, of Christians.

Edit: for grammar!
Very well summed up. That's what it all boils down to. Really, the topic question was stupid. You'd need a whole library of books of the subject to give any definitive answer.

she who? and, you are not any more "forced to be exposed" to my lifestyle than I am to yours. when do I get to whine?

This was a friend of mine from a few years ago. We had diametrically opposing ideas on a lot of things and were both mature enough to be able to discuss it without trying to convince each other.

I basically held the same position you do, although she did most of the talking on that particular occasion because I was just so fascinated at how extreme some of her ideas were. A lot of her points amounted to anti-religious persecution but from her popint of view, it was a perfectly reasonable approach to protect people from others' religions. And she wasn't even an atheist. As I recall, she was Wiccan.

Oh, btw, seperation of Church and state is not in the constitution (in case anybody thinks it is). It was written in a letter by Thomas Jefferson to calm down a church that thought it would be persicuted if a different denomination of a church was made the established religion of the US. He wanted them to know they would be safe from persecution because the government would not establish a state church.

Here is a quote from the United States constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Next time, try not to be such a filthy liar.

Here is a quote from the United States constitution:



Next time, try not to be such a filthy liar.

That's a bit harsh. It may have just been a foolish mistake.
Regardless, the vast, vast, vast majority of the world isn't affected by the US consitution at all.

Very well summed up. That's what it all boils down to. Really, the topic question was stupid. You'd need a whole library of books of the subject to give any definitive answer.

The topic wasn't stupid, just irrelevant. You really, truly, would need the ability to read someone's mind and be able to see their entire life up until then in order to understand why they are Christian or not Christian, because it's almost 100% about personal experience.

The topic wasn't stupid, just irrelevant. You really, truly, would need the ability to read someone's mind and be able to see their entire life up until then in order to understand why they are Christian or not Christian, because it's almost 100% about personal experience.
Its true, the Bible is lacking in many areas. Particularly the Old Testament, which I feel is given far too much focus. They made a new one for a reason, people!

That's a bit harsh. It may have just been a foolish mistake.
Regardless, the vast, vast, vast majority of the world isn't affected by the US consitution at all.

It wasn't harsh at all, and it wasnt a mistake. He specifically said that was not in the constitution, and it is. When someone is a liar, I'm going to call them a liar, and prove it.

And I know the world doesn't abide by the US constitution, but that's what the guy was talking about, I was merely replying to it.

It wasn't harsh at all, and it wasnt a mistake. He specifically said that was not in the constitution, and it is. When someone is a liar, I'm going to call them a liar, and prove it.

And I know the world doesn't abide by the US constitution, but that's what the guy was talking about, I was merely replying to it.

You don't know thye were lying. They may have simply not known it was in there. People should research stuff like that before posting it, but that's no excuse to start throwing around accusations and personal insults.
I recall you did something similar with me because I forced you to the conclusion that neither of us could prove the other wrong.

I'm not sure how fair it is to call the topic irrelavent. It asks a legitmate question of why people are Christian and we seem to have found the answer that it deals with personal beliefs and experiences. What I would call irrelavent is our discussion over whether it was ever rational or logical to be a Christian; though that may have been the spirit of the question in the first place.

People are Christian because it's easier than Judaism (ten commandments to six hundred and thirteen precepts), Islam (you don't need to know Arabic), Hinduism (one god instead of three), Buddhism (that nirvana thing is pretty tough to get your head around), Satanism... (not as much persecution)

The serious answer is because events in their life, reflection, or crises have caused them to find the greatest solace in the teachings of Jesus Christ rather than anyone else, but serious answers are soooooo booooring.

We have numerous portraits of Chirst. And how do you expect a piece of wood to last that long?
We have no contemporaneous portraits of Christ, and there are plenty of 2000+ year old trees (yes, strawman, a cross is obviously no longer sustained by nutrients and would rot away if the Romans didn't burn it anyway).

Logic and reason have nothing to do with faith. Faith by definition is belief in that which has no supporting evidence.
No, faith is simply belief. You can have faith that the earth will continue to rotate, causing the sun to rise tomorrow, as I do; the evidence being that it's done so every day for the past 4.5 billion years, and has no reason to stop doing so at the present time.

Why must there be such a being? Why does the universe need to have a beginning?
Truth. The answer to the cosmology argument is that there would never be "nothing"; there has always been something, and always will be. There is no need for a Creator because everything has always existed as far as time is concerned. Requiring a Creator would mean screwing with the space-time continuum in confusing ways that I don't think any human being can fully understand right now.

Its true, the Bible is lacking in many areas. Particularly the Old Testament, which I feel is given far too much focus. They made a new one for a reason, people!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaNDeJW4ACM

The second half of that is particularly relevant. :D

No, faith is simply belief. You can have faith that the earth will continue to rotate, causing the sun to rise tomorrow, as I do; the evidence being that it's done so every day for the past 4.5 billion years, and has no reason to stop doing so at the present time.
If you ignore the problem of Induction.

If you ignore the problem of Induction.

:confused:

Induction?!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaNDeJW4ACM

The second half of that is particularly relevant. :D

I don't think it was all that funny.

I don't think it was all that funny.

Well, I admit it wasn't the funniest part of a very funny performance, I chose it for it's relevance.

If I wanted the funniest part, this might have been a contender: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK5gGATcF_4&NR=1

:)

Induction?!?
The problem of Induction or Inductive Reasoning (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/#ConNotInd) is a tricky little bugger. Inductive reasoning is the kind of reasoning used in the scientific method; using Dzanjir's example:

The Sun has risen every day.
Therefore, the next day, the Sun will rise.

Problem is, there's no easy reason why this should be the case; it's just an assumption we are very prone to make. Indeed, we base a huge amount of our knowledge on that assumption.

The problem of Induction or Inductive Reasoning is a tricky little bugger. Inductive reasoning is the kind of reasoning used in the scientific method; using Dzanjir's example:

The Sun has risen every day.
Therefore, the next day, the Sun will rise.

Problem is, there's no easy reason why this should be the case; it's just an assumption we are very prone to make. Indeed, we base a huge amount of our knowledge on that assumption.
How about:

The sun has millions of years' worth of fuel left and there is nothing nearby that could knock Earth out of orbit.
Therefore, the next day, the sun will rise.

Very well summed up. That's what it all boils down to. Really, the topic question was stupid. You'd need a whole library of books of the subject to give any definitive answer.

Yeah I agree and well done to DM. It is sorta silly to ask why are some people like this or that. The reason is obviosly coz people are differant!

The problem of Induction or Inductive Reasoning (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/induction-problem/#ConNotInd) is a tricky little bugger. Inductive reasoning is the kind of reasoning used in the scientific method; using Dzanjir's example:

The Sun has risen every day.
Therefore, the next day, the Sun will rise.

Problem is, there's no easy reason why this should be the case; it's just an assumption we are very prone to make. Indeed, we base a huge amount of our knowledge on that assumption.


Ah. I thought you were talking about electromagnetic induction. :p

Like you said, Inductive reasoning can be tricky. But I would say that sunrises are a pretty strong inductive reasoning. Most events that would prevent the sun from rising would pretty much end the need to worry about faulty reasoning. :p

How about:

The sun has millions of years' worth of fuel left and there is Nothing nrby that could knock Earth out of orbit.
Therefore, the next day, the sun will rise.
But look at all the assumptions about physical phenomena you are making, purely because they have happened before:

fuel burns
light travels at 299,792,458 m/s
the Earths orbit is elliptical
etc.

The whole scientific method is based upon the idea that inductive reasoning is correct. We all assume, even learn, through induction:

The fire is hot.
Therefore, fire is always hot.

But it's just an assumption, made because it has worked up until now. It's not necessarily a bad assumption; we probably won't get burnt because of it. But it raises some interesting issues.

Again, assumptions. Our calculations could be wrong, and the sun could become a red giant tomorrow, engulfing the inner solar system. Or all we know about the stars could prove to be wrong and it could collapse into a white dwarf. Alternately, a comet made of tachyons (hypothetically traveling faster than light) could smash across the universe in three seconds and destroy the Earth.

Of course, all this is for argument's sake, as if anything like that ever happened we wouldn't know about it.....

Uh... you lost me, sorry. I'm kinda fuzzy on physics, since I never went to high school.

How about:

The sun has millions of years' worth of fuel left and there is nothing nearby that could knock Earth out of orbit.
Therefore, the next day, the sun will rise.

Again, assumptions. Our calculations could be wrong, and the sun could become a red giant tomorrow, engulfing the inner solar system. Or all we know about the stars could prove to be wrong and it could collapse into a white dwarf. Alternately, a comet made of tachyons (hypothetically traveling faster than light) could smash across the universe in three seconds and destroy the Earth.

Of course, all this is for argument's sake, as if anything like that ever happened we wouldn't know about it.....

I'm Christian because there are things that are explained by science (creation of the universe, evolution, all explained quite well by science), and things that are not explained by science (faith, hope, love).

You're free to choose to believe there's no such thing as faith, or hope, or love. And if you believe in them, you're free to come up with your own explanations.

I just happen to like the Christian one.

What the crap?? I just quoted Chumby's post, but my post somehow ended up above his.:confused:

Like you said, Inductive reasoning can be tricky. But I would say that sunrises are a pretty strong inductive reasoning. Most events that would prevent the sun from rising would pretty much end the need to worry about faulty reasoning. :p
Yeah, but that's where us pedantic philosophers come into our own:

*the Sun doesn't rise tomorrow*

"See, hah! What did I tell you about induction!"

But look at all the assumptions about physical phenomena you are making, purely because they have happened before:

fuel burns
light travels at 299,792,458 m/s
the Earths orbit is elliptical
etc.

The whole scientific method is based upon the idea that inductive reasoning is correct. We all assume, even learn, through induction:

The fire is hot.
Therefore, fire is always hot.

But it's just an assumption, made because it has worked up until now. It's not necessarily a bad assumption; we probably won't get burnt because of it. But it raises some interesting issues.

Just imagine the chaotic fun if one had the power to make all inductive assumptions wrong. The whole universe would randomize and keep randomizing. George W. Bush would become a chimp(to prove that patterns exist even in chaos). :)

I'm Christian because there are things that are explained by science (creation of the universe, evolution, all explained quite well by science), and things that are not explained by science (faith, hope, love).

You're free to choose to believe there's no such thing as faith, or hope, or love. And if you believe in them, you're free to come up with your own explanations.
I just happen to like the Christian one.

I don't think everyone is free to choose. I think sometimes belief is a part of your makeup. I know people who were raised Christian who have never believed in God, Jesus or anything. They can't explain it, they just never did. They tried when they were children and again when they were older.

Yeah, but that's where us pedantic philosophers come into our own:

*the Sun doesn't rise tomorrow*

"See, hah! What did I tell you about inductio...urk!" *dies*

Fixed. :)

Yeah, but that's where us pedantic philosophers come into our own:

*the Sun doesn't rise tomorrow*

"See, hah! What did I tell you about induction!"

Ahhhhh pedantry!

Yep the Sun doesn't rise at all.

What the crap?? I just quoted Chumby's post, but my post somehow ended up above his.:confused:

Space-time distortions. NSG has so many posts that it has begun to collapse under it's own weight and like a black hole, has begun to warp the continuum. *nod*

Again, I'm lost. Like I said before. Not good with physics. Never went to high school.

We Christians are good at changing the Planck length on you.

Space-time distortions. NSG has so many posts that it has begun to collapse under it's own weight and like a black hole, has begun to warp the continuum. *nod*

Again, I'm lost. Like I said before. Not good with physics. Never went to high school.

Again, I'm lost. Like I said before. Not good with physics. Never went to high school.
LG was just being... well, LG.

Jolt, the folks who host the forum, seem to be unable to host forums properly. The time signatures of some posts get mucked up, and consequently posts appear in the wrong order. EDIT>> see this entire page for example.

Ahhhhh pedantry!
Being pedantic is just being right. ;)

Again, I'm lost. Like I said before. Not good with physics. Never went to high school.

All you really need to know about physics, you can learn by watching Star Trek. :)

Christian believe in their religion because they do.
Circular!!!

*explodes*

Just like the title says. Why do people believe in this religion? There are obviously many non-Christians here; what do you think is going on here?

because they choose to?
they want to "fit in"?
they agree with the values set?
They grew being it and don't want to change?
They're scared of death?
They're worried that there might be a god and don't want to risk 'hell'?
They were indoctinated?
etc...

Christian believe in their religion because they do.

Now who is applying inductive reasoning? ;)
Touché, sir.

Oh, so that's why you're a Christian. ;)

Well, someone was going to say it.... and they might have even been serious, too! :o
I'm not gonna pretend that didn't hurt, but I can't say I didn't see it coming.
All you really need to know about physics, you can learn by watching Star Trek. :)
I've never actually watche that show. I tried to once. I just cracked up laughing 'cos of the melodramatic music, hokey acting a stupid-looking aliens.

LG was just being... well, LG.

Jolt, the folks who host the forum, seem to be unable to host forums properly. The time signatures of some posts get mucked up, and consequently pposts appear in the wrong order.


Being pedantic is just being right.

Now who is applying inductive reasoning? ;)

I've never actually watche that show. I tried to once. I just cracked up laughing 'cos of the melodramatic music, hokey acting a stupid-looking aliens.

^ This, although I've been doing that for the past six months.

All you really need to know about physics, you can learn by watching Star Trek. :)

*nod*

Trek>everything else.

Trek>everything else.
:eek:

*starts a billion Star Trek vs. Star Wars threads*

:eek:

*starts a billion Star Trek vs. Star Wars threads*

Ugh. I hate those thrads. In the words of William Shatner "It's just a TV show, people! Get a life!"

There seem to be some similarities between religion and science.

Even science has fundamental axioms and assumptions that lie under the whole "train of thought".

Unproven assumptions, unproven axioms.

Take physics for example, and my little joke about the Planck length.

Many textbooks merely state that it's a constant - a few theorists disagree, but there's no proof either way.

We assume that it has a specific value - a value that conveniently allows for us to exist as we are - but we can't really "measure it". Why not?

To address the question of whether the Planck length is a constant, you need two ingredients: (1) a way to measure the Planck length in different parts of the universe and (2) a reference length that can be assumed to be the same everywhere and everywhen. However, satisfying both these requirements is not as easy as it might seem at first, mostly because you have to avoid circular definitions. And you still need to make some kind of assumption in part (2).

Sound like religion? Christians assume their God exists as a constant. Can't "measure" God, either.

Because parts of his family and his best friends were willing to die rather than say he was not a god
or that and he has affected the world more than any other man in history

Jesus was a generally good role model in his message.

But then again, so is Odd Thomas - and nobody's made a religion out of him yet.

:eek:

*starts a billion Star Trek vs. Star Wars threads*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p55YD8QhQ3o&mode=related&search=

:D

Because parts of his family and his best friends were willing to die rather than say he was not a god
or that and he has affected the world more than any other man in history

Well, no - Hitler, Khan, and Buddha have affected it just as much, if not more. It's the church that's affected the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p55YD8QhQ3o&mode=related&search=

:D

LOL thanks!

Yes but we don't assume that the planck length gives us instructions or will guide us to heaven and condemn 'evil' people. Quite a difference.

We just assume that the Planck length means that all the rest of physics is correct.

Smunkee, LG, you are two of the best people I've ever met. I know absolutely nothing about you, but I love both of you.

There seem to be some similarities between religion and science.

Even science has fundamental axioms and assumptions that lie under the whole "train of thought".

Unproven assumptions, unproven axioms.

Take physics for example, and my little joke about the Planck length.

Many textbooks merely state that it's a constant - a few theorists disagree, but there's no proof either way.

We assume that it has a specific value - a value that conveniently allows for us to exist as we are - but we can't really "measure it". Why not?

To address the question of whether the Planck length is a constant, you need two ingredients: (1) a way to measure the Planck length in different parts of the universe and (2) a reference length that can be assumed to be the same everywhere and everywhen. However, satisfying both these requirements is not as easy as it might seem at first, mostly because you have to avoid circular definitions. And you still need to make some kind of assumption in part (2).

Sound like religion? Christians assume their God exists as a constant. Can't "measure" God, either.

Yes but we don't assume that the planck length gives us instructions or will guide us to heaven and condemn 'evil' people. Quite a difference.

:eek: repent!

I'm pretty sure Thou Shalt Not Worship the Trek is somewhere in the Commandments. Probably on the 4-5 that were destroyed.

Ugh. I hate those thrads. In the words of William Shatner "It's just a TV show, people! Get a life!"

:eek: repent!

Yes but we don't assume that the planck length gives us instructions or will guide us to heaven and condemn 'evil' people. Quite a difference.

STRAWMAAAANNNNNN!

Scientific axioms cannot be proven; they are simply accepted. The existence of God cannot be proven; it is simply accepted (by some people). The poster did not claim the axioms stipulated or governed anything; God does not necessarily stipulate or govern anything (although that would be counterproductive).

.... Or something like that.

... there's a difference? o_0
You look at Shatner's big, sweaty head and tell me there isn't.

Ugh. I hate those thrads. In the words of William Shatner "It's just a TV show, people! Get a life!"
... there's a difference? o_0

*drumroll*

Because it's what an individual believes about the state of the world and the supernatural. People are similarly Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Confucian, Zoarastrian, Sikh, Ba'hai, FSM Pirates, and atheists for that reason: Some element of their life up until today that has led them to believe what it is they believe.

I'm an agnostic atheist, because I found the faith of my parents abhorrent in its socially rigid structuring, and the upturned noses that most Brahmin show towards the lower castes. Largely because I'm also a humanist.

I'm not a Christian, and this is precisely because I have read the Bible, I have looked up the evidence, and I have found it all wanting.

My room mate in college was raised Christian, read the Bible several times thorughout his life, and following a crisis of faith, continued to be Christian. Because he felt it had the answers.


There's no cut and dry "Because Christianity is teh only vey!!!!11111" or "They shouldn't be because all the evidence is crap!!!1111" answer. It, by its very nature, HAS to be a personal decision, the reasons for which are almost certainly not unanimous for all, or even a large amount, of Christians.

Edit: for grammar!

nicely said

would it be impolite for me to ask what caste you are in? im wondering if you are at the top and realize that its wrong to have all others below you or at the bottom and dislike being stuck in a sucky position (or somewhere in the middle where you get a bit of both).

if its rude or too personal a question, please ignore it.

Yes but we don't assume that the planck length gives us instructions or will guide us to heaven and condemn 'evil' people. Quite a difference.

Yes, we just use it to make thermonuclear weapons.

STRAWMAAAANNNNNN!

Scientific axioms cannot be proven; they are simply accepted. The existence of God cannot be proven; it is simply accepted (by some people). The poster did not claim the axioms stipulated or governed anything; God does not necessarily stipulate or govern anything (although that would be counterproductive).

.... Or something like that.

Not really. For the metaphor to work, you have to take it all into account.

Sure, there's a technical comparison between the assumption of the planck length and the existence of god - but that's where the comparisons end. In that sense, it's entirely pointless to compare the two, because in the part that really matters, there is no comparison.

The part that really matters is not whether or not god exists, it's the assumption that we can know what he wants and what his intentions are. That's where there is no comparison, and that's why it's pointless.

How does that mean the planck length has a will of its own, which it uses to give us instruction and guidance?

No, scientists use the Planck length to come up with scientific stuff to blow us up.

People who are religious use God to come up with religious stuff to mess with our heads.

Yes, we just use it to make thermonuclear weapons.

How does that mean the planck length has a will of its own, which it uses to give us instruction and guidance?

It wasn't harsh at all, and it wasnt a mistake. He specifically said that was not in the constitution, and it is. When someone is a liar, I'm going to call them a liar, and prove it.

And I know the world doesn't abide by the US constitution, but that's what the guy was talking about, I was merely replying to it.

wow, does it make YOU a liar that you are completely wrong and have provided your own proof that you are wrong?

saint calvin said that "seperation of church and state" isnt in the constutution.

you provide a quote that says the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

do you see how those are not the same phrases?

saint calvin is completely and utterly RIGHT in what he said. i guess YOU are the filthy liar.

No, scientists use the Planck length to come up with scientific stuff to blow us up.

People who are religious use God to come up with religious stuff to mess with our heads.

That's a bit of an odd one. People don't really "use" god - they use their interpretation of what god is. Literally speaking, though, god "uses" us, if there's any usage going on.

wow, does it make YOU a liar that you are completely wrong and have provided your own proof that you are wrong?

saint calvin said that "seperation of church and state" isnt in the constutution.

you provide a quote that says the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

do you see how those are not the same phrases?

saint calvin is completely and utterly RIGHT in what he said. i guess YOU are the filthy liar.

Umm...Ash, the First Amendment is an amendment to the Constitution. It's basically a part of the Constitution, right? Sorry, bit tired, and Constitutional Law isn't something I've versed in.

We have documents signed in her hand, we have her body, we have portraits of her. We also have a range of documentation that corroborates her existence.

We have no portraits of Christ, no body, no part of the Cross on which he was crucified.

Actually we have enough "pieces of the cross" to make several crosses. :D

Umm...Ash, the First Amendment is an amendment to the Constitution. It's basically a part of the Constitution, right? Sorry, bit tired, and Constitutional Law isn't something I've versed in.

sorry, but Ash's point is that the establishment clause (which is part of the first amendment) doesn't actually use the phrase 'seperation of church and state' and is actually interpreted a few ways. When someone says 'seperation of church and state is in the constitution' most people expect to see that phrase somewhere.

In my own opinion (which isn't worth much) the basic point of the establishment clause is to protect my right to freely practice my religion, i.e. it keeps the government out of my church and not necessarily the church out of the government......not that I am pro-theocracy because I am most decidedly not.

My point is that you are religious because you dont know anything about logic and reason. You have just proved my point by accepting the fact that I could have an invisible, intangible giraffe sitting in a lounge chair in my living room. You have no regard for the scientific method or the burden of proof.

Neither the scientific method nor the burden of proof says that you CAN'T have an invisible, intangible giraffe sitting in a lounge chair in your living room.

That's a bit of an odd one. People don't really "use" god - they use their interpretation of what god is. Literally speaking, though, god "uses" us, if there's any usage going on.

And the imaginary Planck length is an "interpretation" of what something "is".

Another question to ponder... The nature of nothing is that it stays nothing. Particles, atoms, energy, whatever, cannot come from nothingness. So there must be some being to whom nothingness is not a factor to make all this stuff. Thoughts?

Who brought this being or these beings from nothingness? Thoughts?

Umm...Ash, the First Amendment is an amendment to the Constitution. It's basically a part of the Constitution, right? Sorry, bit tired, and Constitutional Law isn't something I've versed in.

you missed the point

the first guy said that the seperation of church and state is not in the constitution.

its not. the PHRASE comes from something by thomas jefferson

the second guy said that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion which IS in the constitution but is not the same phrase at all.

his proof proved that he was in error. saint calvin is not only not a "filthy liar" he is also not wrong.

maybe God did create the universe, but apparently He's gone now

sorry, but Ash's point is that the establishment clause (which is part of the first amendment) doesn't actually use the phrase 'seperation of church and state' and is actually interpreted a few ways. When someone says 'seperation of church and state is in the constitution' most people expect to see that phrase somewhere.

In my own opinion (which isn't worth much) the basic point of the establishment clause is to protect my right to freely practice my religion, i.e. it keeps the government out of my church and not necessarily the church out of the government......not that I am pro-theocracy because I am most decidedly not.

Ah, ok.

What about religion in schools?

you missed the point

the first guy said that the seperation of church and state is not in the constitution.

its not. the PHRASE comes from something by thomas jefferson

the second guy said that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion which IS in the constitution but is not the same phrase at all.

his proof proved that he was in error. saint calvin is not only not a "filthy liar" he is also not wrong.

Thanks.

And the imaginary Planck length is an "interpretation" of what something "is".

Granted. I just don't consider the two to be the same thing.

As a closing note, I'm glad you have something that helps you through your life, religion can be a very useful tool. Thank you for not trying to convert others.

If only you would do the same.

Granted. I just don't consider the two to be the same thing.

They're really not. One's a symbolic, mathematical interpretation of a physical quantity of the universe, and the other is the actual physical quantity that is the Planck Length.

Kind of like how the number 1 doesn't actually correspond to anything in the physical world.

They're really not. One's a symbolic, mathematical interpretation of a physical quantity of the universe, and the other is the actual physical quantity that is the Planck Length.

Kind of like how the number 1 doesn't actually correspond to anything in the physical world.

The Planck length can't be measured, as I pointed out before, without circular reference. Even then, you still can't measure it and prove scientifically that you're correct.

It's all an assumption.

Ok chaps, so much quoting so little time. I am a Christian, an anglican not a catholic however.

I agree with most of the statements above, religion is a way to answer the unanswerable, but then wouldn't we be in utter anarchy if we knew for certain that God did not exist and there was nothing after this life.

Religion not only brings stability for the mind and for society, it also helps to highlight moral issues in life.

If I refer to the title of this thread "why are people Christian?", I would like to point out that everyone has a different reason.

A few of the main reasons are as I examined above; stability, hope etc.


And now we have reached the utter bull arguments that one can not be moral without religion. Even though the entire argument is flawed it answers only the question "why are you religious?" It does not tell me why you are Christian and not Muslim, Buddhist, or Pagan just to name a few examples of religions that offer "stability, hope etc." (sic)

I am Christian because I was raised to be and I see no real reason to change my mind. I accept that my faith is irrational.

I mean, if it turns out to all have been bullshit, what have I lost?

A lot of fun forbidden by the Bible? Depending on the branch of Christianity you follow you aren't even allowed to DANCE.

Ah, ok.

What about religion in schools?

I don't think there should be government sponsored religious education in schools because it's easily abused and making laws to that effect is against the establishment clause, for example, if I a protestant Christian were forced by law to recite prayers to a god that I don't recognize they are infringing on my right to freely practice my religion without government intervention.

Oh, and look at Pastafarianism. I don't think they have requirements for getting into Heaven.

I can't find my copy of the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster, but I'm pretty sure while there are no requirements to get in you have to follow certain requirements to be allowed to touch the guns on the pirate ship.

A lot of fun forbidden by the Bible? Depending on the branch of Christianity you follow you aren't even allowed to DANCE.

just because someone says they have scriptural support for their idiotic "me rules" doesn't mean they do. Don't for a second think that even half that crap is in any way supported by the Bible.

I thought I was a Christian because I believed that Jesus was the Christ and that he died for my sins.

but, apparently, that's not true, apparently I am a Christian because I am stupid, and bad, and evil, and weak.

Ignore the more rabid atheists Smunk. I would however respectfully like to ask why Christianity and not another religion? WHY do you believe that Jesus was the Christ and died for your sins? I have no interest in changing you, you're one of the best, and possibly most correctly Christian (in that you actually seem to do what he taught) Christians that I know, but I do have an insatiable curiosity and a need to dig for answers to questions. Especially questions that I've noticed seem hard to answer.

It's actually pretty simple. If someone pounds the idea into your head for your entire life, you're going to believe it. It would take an incredible amount of intelligence, reasoning, or some other event to serve as a catalyst to shake you from your religious mindset.

Personally. I don't like believing in things that there are no evidence for. Believing in a god (the Christian god, specifically) seems as utterly ridiculous as believing that there is a 3 foot tall purple spotted elephant that lives in my garage (that cant be seen or felt of course). These two things both have the same amount of evidence for their existence: Zero.

So why are people christians? Because they don't like to analyse things. That would be my best guess.

I call Shenanigans on this! I was raised to be a devout Catholic and had that pounded into my head my entire life and I'm not anything close to being a Catholic.

As for the OP, why do you care? So many religions to choose from, why single out one? If you're going to slam 'religion' slam them all, don't just single one out. It weakens your argument to the point where it comes off as nothing more than an Ad Hominem, which I'm going to have to agree with here.

Ignore the more rabid atheists Smunk. I would however respectfully like to ask why Christianity and not another religion? WHY do you believe that Jesus was the Christ and died for your sins? I have no interest in changing you, you're one of the best, and possibly most correctly Christian (in that you actually seem to do what he taught) Christians that I know, but I do have an insatiable curiosity and a need to dig for answers to questions. Especially questions that I've noticed seem hard to answer.

I experimented with a lot of other religions, none of them ever rang true for me. I guess underneath it all I have a value system separate from my faith, and Christianity is most closely aligned with my world view. I feel it's truer than anything else I have ever experienced.

Totally.

I've actually talked to people who think that in order for your religion to TRULY not affect them, you'd have to pray ONLY in private NEVER where others could hear it,

Um, that's what the Bible actually TELLS you to do . . .

just because someone says they have scriptural support for their idiotic "me rules" doesn't mean they do. Don't for a second think that even half that crap is in any way supported by the Bible.

It's supported by flawed interpretations of the bible. This does not change the fact that if you belong to certain branches of Christianity then some really weird things are forbidden. Even if you only use what the Bible actually states there are several things that are forbidden even though they harm no one.

I experimented with a lot of other religions, none of them ever rang true for me. I guess underneath it all I have a value system separate from my faith, and Christianity is most closely aligned with my world view. I feel it's truer than anything else I have ever experienced.

Now we get somewhere. What rang untrue in other religions that rang true in Christianity?

Now we get somewhere. What rang untrue in other religions that rang true in Christianity?

coming out of the places life has taken me, has made me very much a personal responsibility person. I believe that my renewed focus on self control and personal responsibility has kept me away from a lot of the trouble I have been in in the past. I also found out that I can't control everything, that sometimes no matter how good I am that things just break down (it wasn't a happy realization)

I remember this point when I was praying to generic god(TM) about how I just couldn't handle anything else anymore. That no matter how perfect I tried to be, that everything sucked balls anyway (pardon the language, but it was how I felt) I remember thinking that life sucked, it would always suck, and when I died it would probably still suck. then I had this moment of clarity.....and then I went out in search for things that made sense, and a lot of the stuff that I had believed before didn't make any sense, and a lot of the stuff I found after only made sense if I ignored certain things I really did believe......

does that make any sense? it's hard to answer your question clearly. I can tell you that angry atheist did work for a while, until I wasn't angry anymore then I was like "wtf?"

coming out of the places life has taken me, has made me very much a personal responsibility person. I believe that my renewed focus on self control and personal responsibility has kept me away from a lot of the trouble I have been in in the past. I also found out that I can't control everything, that sometimes no matter how good I am that things just break down (it wasn't a happy realization) I remember this point when I was praying to generic god(TM) about how I just couldn't handle anything else anymore. That no matter how perfect I tried to be, that everything sucked balls anyway (pardon the language, but it was how I felt) I remember thinking that life sucked, it would always suck, and when I died it would probably still suck. then I had this moment of clarity.....and then I went out in search for things that made sense, and a lot of the stuff that I had believed before didn't make any sense, and a lot of the stuff I found after only made sense if I ignored certain things I really did believe...... does that make any sense? it's hard to answer your question clearly. I can tell you that angry atheist did work for a while, until I wasn't angry anymore then I was like "wtf?"

It makes sense as a reason for becoming religious, but it goes no further to explain what it was about Christianity in specific that rang true for you. I had similar experiences praying to pagan gods.

It makes sense as a reason for becoming religious, but it goes no further to explain what it was about Christianity in specific that rang true for you. I had similar experiences praying to pagan gods.

kind of a the things we do have a lasting effect, we are all broken, God is perfect, and He loves us even in our brokenness and sent His son to die for us so that we would not have to be separated from God.....thing. Even if it's a myth....it's pretty darn good right? I mean the idea that we are all broken and that's okay, and not okay at the same time. The idea that even in our brokenness we can improve, we can love one another, we can will ourselves to be better, but really none of it's ever going to be good enough, the idea that we should strive for greatness because of the exercise and that in all our futility there is a God, who knows us, who knows every thought we have ever had, every dream we have ever dreamed, and He loves us anyway. That we have purpose for Him, that the perfect God created us for a reason and that all this crap that goes on......it's important.

Ignore the more rabid atheists Smunk. I would however respectfully like to ask why Christianity and not another religion? WHY do you believe that Jesus was the Christ and died for your sins? I have no interest in changing you, you're one of the best, and possibly most correctly Christian (in that you actually seem to do what he taught) Christians that I know, but I do have an insatiable curiosity and a need to dig for answers to questions. Especially questions that I've noticed seem hard to answer.

*wipes mouth* Oooh, oooh. I'm not rabid!

*wipes mouth* Oooh, oooh. I'm not rabid!

you are mostly harmless and slightly respectful, and very well versed in.....explaining stuff.

:D

you are mostly harmless and slightly respectful, and very well versed in.....explaining stuff.

:D

You don't know me very well :D

I'm angling toward academics. That other people think I'm very well versed in explaining things pleases me greatly.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that God exists. There are official Roman records about the life of Jesus, including the miracles he performed. In addition to the accounts in the Bible, many people have recorded astounding acts performed. There are Egyptian hieroglyphs depicting the parting of the Red Sea.

I'd be very interested to see these sources of yours, could you post a link or tell me where I could find them please?

People simply ignore this evidence because the idea that there is no God has been "pounded into their heads their entire life" and they don't like to be told anything that contradicts what they already think they know.

I'm not sure if this is genuinely your view or if you're just trying to show the absurdity of generalisations, but I was raised a Christian and later turned atheist of my own accord.

Oh, and I'd like to see you prove that there is no invisible, intangible purple elephant in your garage.

Easy, it is contradictory to be both invisible and purple. Do I win a prize? :)

Easy, it is contradictory to be both invisible and purple. Do I win a prize? :)

it's only contradictory because you are trying to apply human logic to something supernatural, same way it's "contradictory" for a loving God to flood the whole Earth. :D (see? I can play.)

I am a Christian. I belive that Jesus Christ was sent by God to live a sinless life an die for our sins so that we might reach Heaven. Why do I believe in God? Because I see him everywhere.

First, let me clear up a few misconceptions:

1. It is possible to believe in evolution and creationism. The English Bible says that God created the world and everything in it in seven days. However, in the original Greek language of the Bible, what is interpreted as "day" actually means "a period of time" in Greek. A day is a period of time- so is a milennium. Another part of the Bible says that a day to us is like one thousand years to God.

2. All major religions (Hinduism, Buddism, Islam, Jehovah's Witness, Judaism, etc.) believe in the same God- the God of Abraham. What is disputed is how that God is to be worshipped, and whether or not Jesus is the son of God.

3. Jesus was a real person. It is historical fact that the prophet Jesus lived, performed miracles, and was put to death by cruxifiction (nailed to a cross) even though he was found innocent of any crime. There are further eye-witness accounts by people who say Jesus after he dies on the cross and was buried in a tomb.

4. Many people (especially Jews) believe that Jesus is not the Son of God, or the Messiah. After he arose from the dead, the story was circulated that his disciples stole his body while the Roman guards were asleep. You see, Jesus predicted that he would rise from the dead and the pharisees were worried that his disicples would try to trick people. So they had the tomb sealed and posted guards to keep watch over the tomb. It was a crime to enter a tomb that had been sealed by the government. But on the third day after Jesus's death, there was an earthquake, and the stone covering the tomb was rolled away and Jesus ascended to Heaven. The guards told the governement about this and they were told to tell everyone that Jesus's disciples had taken the body while the guards were sleeping.
Here's the kicker, though- It was a terrible crime to sleep while on duty, and the punishment was very severe, even execution. So the guards would not all be asleep at the same time. And second- if the Roman guards were asleep, how do they know who took Jesus?

So why do I believe in God? Because I see evidence of him everywhere. I have Christian friends who have astounded doctors because of their miraculous recoverys from cancer and injury. I have spoken to missionaries who have healed the sick by the name of Jesus. I see the transformations that knowing God makes in the lives of drug addicts, prostitutes, and criminals. Friends have told me stories of how they have been short on money but somehow managed to pay all their bills or how they have needed money and almost immediately been offered a job. God is real, He is everywhere, and, yes, I absolutely believe in Him. One day we will stand before God and be judged for our lives on earth. I am still a sinner, but I have put my trust in the only 100% perfect man to ever walk this earth- Jesus Christ.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

Want to learn more? Send a telegram to 'The Republic of Aramadan' and I will be happy to talk with you.

Then God should take a writing course, because the Bible is full of contradictions. Among other things I believe there's a part in the Bible that implies that pi is exactly 3(I saw something on Snopes (www.snopes.com) about some state trying to pass a law forcing people to use pi as 3 because that's what it is in the Bible.

The verse you're thinking of is in Kings somewhere but it's not much of a contradiction: it can be explained as an approximation. There are plenty of contradictions and absurdities in the Bible but that isn't one of them IMHO.

The State which legislated to change Pi was Indiana but it wasn't linked to the Bible. Some crackpot claimed that he'd found a way to square circles (which is impossible) and that therefore Pi was equal to 3.2. He generously offered to let the state teach his discovery for free in public schools provided that he was mentioned as the discoverer. Thanks to the ignorance of politicians the bill was nearly passed, but it was defeated at the last minute by a local professor.

it's only contradictory because you are trying to apply human logic to something supernatural, same way it's "contradictory" for a loving God to flood the whole Earth. :D (see? I can play.)

Gargh! Foiled by ineffable purple elephants! :p

Then again, if elephants really are roaming around my house this might explain why I'm always losing things. :confused:

"it's only contradictory because you are trying to apply human logic to something supernatural, same way it's "contradictory" for a loving God to flood the whole Earth. (see? I can play.)"


This is not contradictory. God flooded the earth because the people had forgotten Him. They did not honor His commandments, glorified idols, and were immoral blasphemers. Notice that, though he could have done so, God chose to perserve Noah and his family, because they still loved God.
Once again we live in a corrupt and immoral world where Christians are being persecuted for their faith. I believe that there will be a time (no one but God knows the date or time) when God will agian destroy the earth. However, like with Noah, he will save all the people who love him and have accepted His Son as their Savior.


Finally- no, you cannot play. No one can hold a candle to the awesome power of God and no human is fit to question or understand the enormous complexity of His perfect plan.

2. All major religions (Hinduism, Buddism, Islam, Jehovah's Witness, Judaism, etc.) believe in the same God- the God of Abraham. What is disputed is how that God is to be worshipped, and whether or not Jesus is the son of God.

What about religions like Buddhism which don't believe in God? ;)

Once again we live in a corrupt and immoral world where Christians are being persecuted for their faith.

Maybe in countries like China or Saudi Arabia; but in Europe, the Americas, and parts of Africa, Christians are dishing out at least as much persecution as they're receiving.

"it's only contradictory because you are trying to apply human logic to something supernatural, same way it's "contradictory" for a loving God to flood the whole Earth. (see? I can play.)"


This is not contradictory. God flooded the earth because the people had forgotten Him. They did not honor His commandments, glorified idols, and were immoral blasphemers. Notice that, though he could have done so, God chose to perserve Noah and his family, because they still loved God.
Once again we live in a corrupt and immoral world where Christians are being persecuted for their faith. I believe that there will be a time (no one but God knows the date or time) when God will agian destroy the earth. However, like with Noah, he will save all the people who love him and have accepted His Son as their Savior.


Finally- no, you cannot play. No one can hold a candle to the awesome power of God and no human is fit to question or understand the enormous complexity of His perfect plan.

first, I am a Christian.

second, if Noah was the only one righteous and yet God saved his whole family (wife, Shem, Ham, their wives, etc.) wasn't God already starting over again with the odds against him?

In answer to the OP's question:

There are more than 2,100,000,000 Christians in the world. Treating all of them as a homogonous mass is silly, I'm willing to bet that they have wildly diverging reasons. for their belief.

Maybe in countries like China or Saudi Arabia; but in Europe, the Americas, and parts of Africa, Christians are dishing out at least as much persecution as they're receiving.

what kind of persecution is being "dished out"?

"Maybe in countries like China or Saudi Arabia; but in Europe, the Americas, and parts of Africa, Christians are dishing out at least as much persecution as they're receiving."

You want to give a few examples for that statement? I don't exactly see church groups sending out Christians to massacre the atheists, do you?

She even suggested that an ideal separation of church and state would prevent publicly-funded fire departments from putting out a fire in a church.

:eek: :p

Fear of death and a liking for cross shaped jewelry. But mostly fear of death.

What about religions like Buddhism which don't believe in God? ;)

What do you think the statues of the man with the huge stomach represents? When you rub the stomach you're supposed to become lucky- and that's not believing in a higher power?

what kind of persecution is being "dished out"?

To be honest I don't think persecution is the right word for what's happening in western countries. I was thinking of the UK at the moment: Christianity tends to be portrayed badly by the media and it's usually seen as more acceptable to insult Christians than it is to insult Muslims or Hindus. On the other hand, The Church of England still controls the majority of schools in England and every schoolday must legally start with an "act of collective worship" with a Christian character. It tends to balance out overall.

As I said, I regret using the word 'persecution'; I was echoing the guy I was quoting.

You want to give a few examples for that statement? I don't exactly see church groups sending out Christians to massacre the atheists, do you?

Neither do I see Atheists roaming the countryside massacring Christians, right?

What do you think the statues of the man with the huge stomach represents? When you rub the stomach you're supposed to become lucky- and that's not believing in a higher power?That's not a belief in a god.

People are Christian because:

1) They grew up around Christianity and were therefore shaped by it, just like how we wear clothes and find it uncomfortable not to wear them (except for nudists, of course). It's just the way they are.

2) They were of a different religion (or of none) and were so moved by a certain experience or revelation in connection to Christianity that they felt Christianity was the way to go.

End.

[ if Noah was the only one righteous and yet God saved his whole family (wife, Shem, Ham, their wives, etc.) wasn't God already starting over again with the odds against him?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, Noah's family was saved because of Noah's faith, because Noah was the head of the family. But Noah was entrusted with building the ark. And after their father predicted the flood hundreds of years in advance, saying that God would destroy the earth. You think that after his family saw it all com true, they didn't believe in God after that?

What do you think the statues of the man with the huge stomach represents? When you rub the stomach you're supposed to become lucky- and that's not believing in a higher power?

Buddha is venerated as an Enlightened man, but not as a God. Muslims show great respect for Muhammed but they don't deify him.

Neither do I see Atheists roaming the countryside massacring Christians, right?

So once again, give an example of Christians persecuting people. I never said that atheist persecuted people. You said that Christians were doing the persecuting but have yet to give any examples.

To be honest I don't think persecution is the right word for what's happening in western countries. I was thinking of the UK at the moment: Christianity tends to be portrayed badly by the media and it's usually seen as more acceptable to insult Christians than it is to insult Muslims or Hindus. On the other hand, The Church of England still controls the majority of schools in England and every schoolday must legally start with an "act of collective worship" with a Christian character. It tends to balance out overall.

As I said, I regret using the word 'persecution'; I was echoing the guy I was quoting.

it sucks that your schools are controlled by the church. :( I can see how that would be uncomfortable.

I also know what you mean about Christianity being portrayed so badly in the media (esp. the entertainment media) but then they do the same thing for a lot of people groups, I figure it's just the way things are.

"Maybe in countries like China or Saudi Arabia; but in Europe, the Americas, and parts of Africa, Christians are dishing out at least as much persecution as they're receiving."

You want to give a few examples for that statement? I don't exactly see church groups sending out Christians to massacre the atheists, do you?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

or... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_persecution_by_Christians#Contemporary

What do you think the statues of the man with the huge stomach represents? When you rub the stomach you're supposed to become lucky- and that's not believing in a higher power?

"One belief surrounding the figure of Budai in popular folklore is that if a person is to rub his belly, it brings forth wealth, good luck, and prosperity. This belief however does not form part of any Buddhist doctrine. He is often admired for his happiness, plenitude, and supposedly wisdom of contentment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai

Sorry, Noah's family was saved because of Noah's faith, because Noah was the head of the family. But Noah was entrusted with building the ark. And after their father predicted the flood hundreds of years in advance, saying that God would destroy the earth. You think that after his family saw it all com true, they didn't believe in God after that?
I have seen tons of people who see major things like that and still don't believe. I mean we know what happens to Japeth, but no real news about Shem and Ham, perhaps they were angry at God for stranding them on a boat for a few years?

I am really not trying to upset you, I promise. I am just in a bad mood right now.

Welcome to NSG.

So once again, give an example of Christians persecuting people. I never said that atheist persecuted people. You said that Christians were doing the persecuting but have yet to give any examples.

Actually what I said was "Christians are dishing out at least as much persecution as they're receiving".

As I said to Smunkee, I regret using the word 'persecution' but I was simply echoing your post. What I meant was that discrimination commited against Christians isn't any greater than that commited by Christians.

I have seen tons of people who see major things like that and still don't believe. I mean we know what happens to Japeth, but no real news about Shem and Ham, perhaps they were angry at God for stranding them on a boat for a few years?

I am really not trying to upset you, I promise. I am just in a bad mood right now.

Welcome to NSG.

If the Bible included detailed accounts of what happened to every descendant of Adam, or Noah, or Abraham, or Jacob, their would be no book binding big enough to hold it's pages.

If the Bible included detailed accounts of what happened to every descendant of Adam, or Noah, or Abraham, or Jacob, their would be no book binding big enough to hold it's pages.Oh, for a start it would be sufficient if the Bible were accurate in those stories it does tell.
And you could of course always read up Sumerian literature about these stories, you know Edin, the Flood, the Tower...

it sucks that your schools are controlled by the church. :( I can see how that would be uncomfortable.

The Anglicans aren't too bad really, I went to CofE schools 'til I was sixteen and they provided a good education and didn't discriminate against anyone. The real problem is the new 'academy' schools, which are often single-faith and openly discriminate against anybody who isn't a member of their religion (while being funded by the tax payer).

I also know what you mean about Christianity being portrayed so badly in the media (esp. the entertainment media) but then they do the same thing for a lot of people groups, I figure it's just the way things are.

I was talking to a Christian friend about this a while ago. I guess the only positive side is that the mockery shows that people don't associate violence with Christianity in the same way that they do with Islam. Probable not much of a consolation but there you go...

If the Bible included detailed accounts of what happened to every descendant of Adam, or Noah, or Abraham, or Jacob, their would be no book binding big enough to hold it's pages.

Yes. It would take some sort of miracle. A divine hand, if you will.

Actually what I said was "Christians are dishing out at least as much persecution as they're receiving".

As I said to Smunkee, I regret using the word 'persecution' but I was simply echoing your post. What I meant was that discrimination commited against Christians isn't any greater than that commited by Christians.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. In India and China the churches have to be kept a secret. People are routinly jailed for preaching the gospel and even killed. Though in England, the Protestants used to persecute the Catholics, that is ALMOST a seperate issue, since both believed in God. I agree that in America the discrimination against Christians is minor comparedto discrimination against homosexuals and Islamists. But Christian governments are not imprisioning those of other faiths.

"One belief surrounding the figure of Budai in popular folklore is that if a person is to rub his belly, it brings forth wealth, good luck, and prosperity. This belief however does not form part of any Buddhist doctrine. He is often admired for his happiness, plenitude, and supposedly wisdom of contentment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai

Okay, I am probably wrong. That was something that a teacher (public school, not a pastor) told us. I don't know where she heard the information. I shouldn't have repreated it without checking the facts. Sorry.

If the Bible included detailed accounts of what happened to every descendant of Adam, or Noah, or Abraham, or Jacob, their would be no book binding big enough to hold it's pages.

This is why God needs a blog.

*nods*

Oh, for a start it would be sufficient if the Bible were accurate in those stories it does tell.
And you could of course always read up Sumerian literature about these stories, you know Edin, the Flood, the Tower...

Could you please tell me where the stories are inaccurate and I'll try to explain what my Bible says.

Could you please tell me where the stories are inaccurate and I'll try to explain what my Bible says.I have Bibles myself.

I was talking to a Christian friend about this a while ago. I guess the only positive side is that the mockery shows that people don't associate violence with Christianity in the same way that they do with Islam. Probable not much of a consolation but there you go...


No, which is sad, because not all Muslims are terrorists, only members the radical groups. Similarly, there are some Christians who believe that if you aren't a Chrisitian you aren't anybody, but that goes against the Biblical teachings of: love your neighbor as yourself, and do not judge each other.

I have Bibles myself.

alright, then just tell me where you think the stories are inaccurate.

No, which is sad, because not all Muslims are terrorists, only members the radical groups. Similarly, there are some Christians who believe that if you aren't a Chrisitian you aren't anybody, but that goes against the Biblical teachings of: love your neighbor as yourself, and do not judge each other.

I wasn't suggesting that regarding Islam as violent is good, I was suggesting that regarding Christianity as non-violent is good.

It seems I'm being a little unclear in my posts and for this I apologise.

Feck, I missed the good part of the thread...

Feck, I missed the good part of the thread...

These threads tend to be circular. You'll catch it on the next wave.

So once again, give an example of Christians persecuting people. I never said that atheist persecuted people. You said that Christians were doing the persecuting but have yet to give any examples.

http://www.exploringthecauldron.com/October05/DarlaWynne.htm

Ms Wynne objected to Jesus being invoked at a local gov't meeting (forbidden by the sermon on the mount; Matthew ch 6 v5"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret; and thy Father who seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.")

After doing so, she faced threats on her life, her pets were killed, and she was in general terrorized. Likely by 'good Christians.'

I wasn't suggesting that regarding Islam as violent is good, I was suggesting that regarding Christianity as non-violent is good.

It seems I'm being a little unclear in my posts and for this I apologise.

No, I understood. and I agreed. Maybe I'm being unclear. I meant- "no, you're right that it's not good, because Muslims aren't terrorists"

There are certain Christians who think that anyone who does not follow their believes are worthy of death, but that goes against biblical teachings like love your neighbor as yourself and do not judge others. You do not see organized groups (like a government or a church) going out and killing.


I have to leave- if anyone has any questions about God or Jesus or Christianity that you would like answered, please send me a telegram. I pray that you do.

There are certain Christians who think that anyone who does not follow their believes are worthy of death, but that goes against biblical teachings like love your neighbor as yourself and do not judge others. You do not see organized groups (like a government or a church) going out and killing.

I have to leave- if anyone has any questions about God or Jesus or Christianity that you would like answered, please send me a telegram. I pray that you do.And who are you? Soviestan's christian re-incarnation?

People are Christian because for those people it is the most attractive supernatural belief system they have found, and it hasn't yet occurred to them that they need not hold beliefs on supernatural issues.

Just like the title says. Why do people believe in this religion? There are obviously many non-Christians here; what do you think is going on here?

Am I supposed to know?

People are Christian because for those people it is the most attractive supernatural belief system they have found, and it hasn't yet occurred to them that they need not hold beliefs on supernatural issues.

Fear and tradition do much to prevent thoughtfulness.

You can't prove God, or any god, exists. At the same time you can't prove that any god doesn't exist.

Fear and tradition do much to prevent thoughtfulness.Alleluja!

*SHOCK*

*AWE*

*AMAZEMENT*

It's so profound!And so unexpected and unforetold!

You can't prove God, or any god, exists. At the same time you can't prove that any god doesn't exist.

*SHOCK*

*AWE*

*AMAZEMENT*

It's so profound!

okay... all you people who say Christianity and religion in general listen to this


you say science explains everything

explain how the universe was created

don't say the big bang
that created the universe as we know it
before the big bang there was still the matter that caused it

so answer the question

you can't? how surprising

science has not provided an explanation for this so that is why I (and probably other people) believe in god

The serious answer is because events in their life, reflection, or crises have caused them to find the greatest solace in the teachings of Jesus Christ rather than anyone else

doubtful. the vast vast overwhelming majority barely have a clue about their own religious teachings, let alone know anything at all about any of the hundreds of other currently practiced religions and tens of thousands of formerly practiced ones. an insignificant minority may have checked out one or two different traditions at some point, but those are such radical outliers that we pretty much have to throw them out entirely. and essentially none of that tiny group have considered the one true faith, the john frum movement.

people are almost universally the religion they are because they weren't born into a culture or community that practiced another one. that is all there is to it.

people are almost universally the religion they are because they weren't born into a culture or community that practiced another one. that is all there is to it.
I would tend to agree. I think it's mostly conformity that makes people Christians.

okay... all you people who say Christianity and religion in general listen to this


you say science explains everything

explain how the universe was created

don't say the big bang
that created the universe as we know it
before the big bang there was still the matter that caused it

so answer the question

you can't? how surprising

science has not provided an explanation for this so that is why I (and probably other people) believe in god

1. science does not explain everything, nor does science claim thus. religion claims thus.
2. there is no "before" the big bang. time is a property of this universe.

okay... all you people who say Christianity and religion in general listen to this


you say science explains everything

explain how the universe was created

don't say the big bang
that created the universe as we know it
before the big bang there was still the matter that caused it

so answer the question

you can't? how surprising

science has not provided an explanation for this so that is why I (and probably other people) believe in god

You believe in God in lieu of an answer to a question which may or may not be answered through science (which may in fact have already been answered by numerous theories)? This is why you believe in an old book full of contradictions and rules about what not to eat? You are a weird person.

Because I believe in a higher power, which I call God, since it is shorter than saying 'higher power'. Also because I would like to believe there was a decent man named Jesus who did quite a few good things, preached tolerance, loving your neighbour, etc.. and bothered to die for our sins so we could make it to heaven/valhalla/whateveryouwanttocallit when we die.

I would tend to agree. I think it's mostly conformity that makes people Christians.

hell, it's largely conformity that makes them particular denominations of christians. otherwise we couldn't make maps like this even in principle:

http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/church_bodies.gif

doubtful. the vast vast overwhelming majority barely have a clue about their own religious teachings

Back this up


people are almost universally the religion they are because they weren't born into a culture or community that practiced another one. that is all there is to it.

Back this up

you say science explains everything
No one who understands science thinks that.
explain how the universe was created
I can't.
don't say the big bang
that created the universe as we know it
before the big bang there was still the matter that caused it
You don't know that.
so answer the question

you can't? how surprising
That's what I said.
science has not provided an explanation for this so that is why I (and probably other people) believe in god
Why do you need an answer? Why can't you just be unaware of how the universe began?

I don't know how the universe began. There's no reason for be to believe any presented theory. So why would I? Even yours?

okay... all you people who say Christianity and religion in general listen to this


you say science explains everything

explain how the universe was created

don't say the big bang
that created the universe as we know it
before the big bang there was still the matter that caused it

so answer the question

you can't? how surprising

science has not provided an explanation for this so that is why I (and probably other people) believe in god

Your question doesn't make any sense my friend. You might as well say "What's to the North of the North Pole?"

Your question doesn't make any sense my friend. You might as well say "What's to the North of the North Pole?"

Santa.