NationStates Jolt Archive

Before I came to NSG I was quite right wing, then as I watched more and more genaralites pwn t3h n00bs, I went further and further left. I found my self jumping on the far left liberal band wagon without really thinking of anything particullarly original for myself. I suddenly became anarchist because I was finding this left liberal/socialist view tedious and stopped posting on NSG for a while although I eventually returned to pathetically attempt to debate using my misunderstood grasp of anarchism. After some thinking, I found anarchism to be completely illogical and impractical, and more of a drugs trip then anything else (no offense).

I then started talking to some people who had been around and had experience in politics, and as I studied more I eventually went to the center left and had realised that NSG was like a magnet, pulling you further and further left. And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.

Do you agree?

Edit: sory for the weirdly confusing poll :D

Edit2: woops, forgot the no option. For those who disagree, just select the Nsg controls our thoughs option.

No, I've been reading some of the NSG debates for a while and I am in the center, leaning towards Libertarianism.

Yup. When I came to NSG, I was a 4.33, - 1. Within 6 months, I was a -10, -10. Now I'm whatever I am in my sig. It was only with study that I kicked the anarcho-communist mode.

Before I came to NSG I was quite right wing, then as I watched more and more genaralites pwn t3h n00bs, I went further and further left. I found my self jumping on the far left liberal band wagon without really thinking of anything particullarly original for myself. I suddenly became anarchist because I was finding this left liberal/socialist view tedious and stopped posting on NSG for a while although I eventually returned to pathetically attempt to debate using my misunderstood grasp of anarchism. After some thinking, I found anarchism to be completely illogical and impractical, and more of a drugs trip then anything else (no offense).

I then started talking to some people who had been around and had experience in politics, and as I studied more I eventually went to the center left and had realised that NSG was like a magnet, pulling you further and further left. And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.

Do you agree?

I believe that NSG is a great place for people on the fringes to see some reasonable arguments and have noticed that people have tended to change their views a few times based on those arguments.

Well, NSG certainly does have a tendency to change your political views, but not necessarily towards the left. I was far-left when I first got here, but now I'm moderate-right.

Well, NSG certainly does have a tendency to change your political views, but not necessarily towards the left. I was far-left when I first got here, but now I'm moderate-right.

hmm, that was probably a reactionary thing.

I was fairly right wing and have shuffled slightly left over the three years and 8 nations I have had, but not much and thats mainly just growing up and being better educated, knowing that you cant just 'kick the foreigners out' or 'execute the bad guys', so NSG, ageing, and the fact that soceity itself seems to be shuffling left...

EDIT:I think its in my Sig...

Before I came to NSG I was quite right wing, then as I watched more and more genaralites pwn t3h n00bs, I went further and further left. I found my self jumping on the far left liberal band wagon without really thinking of anything particullarly original for myself. I suddenly became anarchist because I was finding this left liberal/socialist view tedious and stopped posting on NSG for a while although I eventually returned to pathetically attempt to debate using my misunderstood grasp of anarchism. After some thinking, I found anarchism to be completely illogical and impractical, and more of a drugs trip then anything else (no offense).

I then started talking to some people who had been around and had experience in politics, and as I studied more I eventually went to the center left and had realised that NSG was like a magnet, pulling you further and further left. And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.

Do you agree?

I came to NSG as aChristian. A very liberal Christian at that... but now I'm an atheist.

I came to NSG as aChristian. A very liberal Christian at that... but now I'm an atheist.

And were you convinced that there was no God from the people of NSG?

And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.

are you positive they were merely deceivingly convincing and not just actually convincing?

I came to NSG as aChristian. A very liberal Christian at that... but now I'm an atheist.

of course, that's part of why fundamentalism showed up in the first place...

And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.If the arguments are deceiving, how can they be well constructed? Wouldn't a well constructed argument be an accurate one?

If the arguments are deceiving, how can they be well constructed? Wouldn't a well constructed argument be an accurate one?

they might just be well constructed in a technical sense, and use subtly wrong premises that are very hard to spot to lead to their conclusions

Why isn't there a "no" option?

Everyone on NSG are deeply set in there opinions.

are you positive they were merely deceivingly convincing and not just actually convincing?

If the arguments are deceiving, how can they be well constructed? Wouldn't a well constructed argument be an accurate one?

Not nescecarrily. An argument can look good, without actually being "good".

Why isn't there a "no" option?

Everyone on NSG are deeply set in there opinions.

omg, I actually forgot about that! How stupid! :mad:

And were you convinced that there was no God from the people of NSG?

Not necessarily NSG, though it did have a small role in it.

It was actually some summertime boredom that made me go agnostic, then I went atheist.

We have always been at war with II, we have never been at war with Spam Forums
We have always been at war with Spam Forums, we have never been at war with II.

Indoctrinate? Whatever are you babbling about?

no

no.

no.

no

Care to posit an argument?

Well, I started a Social Democrat here, and now I'm a free-market liberal.

How much of that is due to NSG is not entirely clear, but what the place does is grab your scalp and push your face right in all the little weaknesses and inconsistencies of what you believe in. I think the only people who can go through that and not change are really, really fanatic Busheviks.

Everyone else here changes their views one way or another.

Before I came to NSG I was quite right wing, then as I watched more and more genaralites pwn t3h n00bs, I went further and further left. I found my self jumping on the far left liberal band wagon without really thinking of anything particullarly original for myself. I suddenly became anarchist because I was finding this left liberal/socialist view tedious and stopped posting on NSG for a while although I eventually returned to pathetically attempt to debate using my misunderstood grasp of anarchism. After some thinking, I found anarchism to be completely illogical and impractical, and more of a drugs trip then anything else (no offense).

I then started talking to some people who had been around and had experience in politics, and as I studied more I eventually went to the center left and had realised that NSG was like a magnet, pulling you further and further left. And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.
Honestly, I don't think it does, but I find your experience most excellent indeed. :D

Well, I started a Social Democrat here, and now I'm a free-market liberal.
Now, now, don't go blaming that on us. <.<

Everyone else here changes their views one way or another.

I'm not sure, if you start off well rooted as a left liberal, I don't think there is a enough people on this forum to do any damage.

I think the only people who can go through that and not change are really, really fanatic Busheviks.

you might be able to pull it off if you spend you time exclusively in the social and picture threads, too.

I'm not sure, if you start off well rooted as a left liberal, I don't think there is a enough people on this forum to do any damage.I'd agree. Of course I'd argue that there's simply no sensible reason to veer from a leftist position. ;]

NS makes anarchists? :confused:

Care to posit an argument?

as i was never left, right or in the middle

NS makes anarchists? :confused:

Kind of, it's just the whole "autonomy in everything, freedom FROM everything" feeling you get from NSG seems that anarchism or some other similar ideology would logically follow from that.

Do you agree?
Not really. Debating on NSG made me increasingly thoughtful as a matter of fact. The opposite of ideological (indocrinated) I would say. Before I started playing NS I was completely uninterested in politics, now I am, but in a pragmatic way.

Edit2: woops, forgot the no option.

<insert nelson muntz here>

as i was never left, right or in the middle

Where were you? Somewhere on the z axis?

Before I came to NSG I was quite right wing, then as I watched more and more genaralites pwn t3h n00bs, I went further and further left. I found my self jumping on the far left liberal band wagon without really thinking of anything particullarly original for myself. I suddenly became anarchist because I was finding this left liberal/socialist view tedious and stopped posting on NSG for a while although I eventually returned to pathetically attempt to debate using my misunderstood grasp of anarchism. After some thinking, I found anarchism to be completely illogical and impractical, and more of a drugs trip then anything else (no offense).

I then started talking to some people who had been around and had experience in politics, and as I studied more I eventually went to the center left and had realised that NSG was like a magnet, pulling you further and further left. And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.

Do you agree?

Edit: sory for the weirdly confusing poll :D

Edit2: woops, forgot the no option. For those who disagree, just select the Nsg controls our thoughs option.
I would say no, not really. NationStates General is really more of a place where lots of people will argue effectively all manner of political viewpoints. At most it is a way of allowing a person to become more educated and form more educated opinions. Does this often result in a person becoming more left-leaning? I'd say so, but only because that position is more sensible than right leaning, at least when it comes to social issues.

I'm not sure, if you start off well rooted as a left liberal, I don't think there is a enough people on this forum to do any damage.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=484579

Well, it did it for me. But then, it wasn't so much the forum itself. NSG just did the preparation work by forcing me to look at the contradictions in what I was saying all the time. Life did the rest.

NS makes anarchists? :confused:
I think it's the realisation that no moral, economic or any other type of judgement actually means the same to two people. You may have the most intelligent opinion in the world, but on NSG people are gonna disagree and not change their minds.

So you necessarily end up with a "agree to disagree" philosophy. In other words, anarchism. :p

only because that position is more sensible than right leaning, at least when it comes to social issues.

But there is a difference between rationally deciding this, and just jumping on the left bandwagon. I'm not naming names here, but I am quite sure that there are some people on this thread that are doing exactly this.

Where were you? Somewhere on the z axis?

no where

I don't think any truly indoctrinated person would survive very long on NSG. At least not without humiliating themselves.

You need to thoroughly understand your opposition and effectively reply to them.

Economically, I moved right in my time here, but that also has to do with the factors outside of NSG that affected me.

no where

Hmm. Isn't that technically anarchist?

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=484579


That was a good read!

So you necessarily end up with a "agree to disagree" philosophy. In other words, anarchism. :p

Unless the person's a statist.

But there is a difference between rationally deciding this, and just jumping on the left bandwagon. I'm not naming names here, but I am quite sure that there are some people on this thread that are doing exactly this.

Then name some names and try to provide proof for your claim, because I'm just not seeing it. Worst possible case you offend someone mildly, and NSG does that all the time to everyone.

I voted NSG controls our thoughts. No matter how much time I spend away from here, it always has a place in my mind. An idyllic sort of place, really, where the Freedom of Speech exists and allows for the free exchange of ideas between people. Where arguments are (hopefully) constructed largely based on evidence and careful forethought rather than ideological indoctrinations and spinoffs of Fox News.

I voted NSG controls our thoughts. No matter how much time I spend away from here, it always has a place in my mind. An idyllic sort of place, really, where the Freedom of Speech exists and allows for the free exchange of ideas between people. Where arguments are (hopefully) constructed largely based on evidence and careful forethought rather than ideological indoctrinations and spinoffs of Fox News.

You really haven't been here long enough.

Or you haven't met some of our more...colorful trolls.

Actually I have NSG to thank for making me an atheist. No, it wasn't the atheists on NSG who converted me - it was the Christians on NSG who made me turn away from religion completely.

Does this often result in a person becoming more left-leaning? I'd say so, but only because that position is more sensible than right leaning, at least when it comes to social issues.

well, the economics is more complicated and bound up in some fundamentally incompatible, but at least facially plausible, intuitions of justice and desirable states and the like.

on the other hand, right-wing social positions are essentially completely lacking in viable arguments and just seem laughable when put to even the mildest of tests. which probably also explains the trend away from them in the real world - they rely entirely on insular social forces to maintain themselves, and as those breakdown, so do the positions themselves.

Hmm. Isn't that technically anarchist?

i have not rebel against any authority, established order, or ruling power and i have not use or promotes use of violent means to overthrow the established order
so no

You really haven't been here long enough.

Or you haven't met some of our more...colorful trolls.

I've been on and off since mid-2004? Don't recall exactly when I started, but that sounds about right.

Anyways.....I did say *hopefully*.

i have not rebel against any authority, established order, or ruling power and i have not use violent means to overthrow the established order
so no

So your not a millitant revolutionary, doesn't mean you are not an anarchist.
Anyway, what are you then?

Unless the person's a statist.
Well, "agreeing to disagree" necessarily implies that there can't be a government, I think.

Government, by definition, imposes some set of opinions (even if it's just a very small set) on everyone. So even though you could have a very small government that would let most people do as they please, there'd still be limits outside of which people wouldn't be allowed to do entirely whatever they want.

I don't if this helps, but...

When I started on NSG I was center-left on the political compass, and now I'm center-right.

On the other hand, my political ideals shifted rather dramatically. From non-existent to evolutionary anarcho-capitalism.

Well, "agreeing to disagree" necessarily implies that there can't be a government, I think.

To the contrary, it could imply that there needs to be a government because your views are not reconcilable with someone else's.

"Same-sex intercourse is a disgusting abomination that should be punished with death. The Bible says so."

"Why does the Bible determine what is moral?"

"Because it's the word of God, and God's word determines morality."

"That's crazy. You're a monster if you would really be genocidal because God said so."

"It's what I believe."

And so on.

So even though you could have a very small government that would let most people do as they please, there'd still be limits outside of which people wouldn't be allowed to do entirely whatever they want.

So I go over to your anarcho-capitalist community, declare that you're oppressing the workers, invade, take your property, and hang you and your compatriots.

At some point, aren't you going to enforce your opinion that I shouldn't be allowed to kill and steal from you?

At some point, aren't you going to enforce your opinion that I shouldn't be allowed to kill and steal from you?
Well, you (and that religious guy) wouldn't be agreeing to disagree in the first place. You'd be imposing your opinions on me (or that gay guy who wants to marry).

But if the both of us really agreed to disagree and accept that to be the state of the world, then both of us could do what we wanted and respect each other's different choices.

Well, that's my utopia, anyways.

Well, you (and that religious guy) wouldn't be agreeing to disagree in the first place.

Sure we would be.

"I accept that our views are irreconcilable on a fundamental level. I'm still going to kill you."

You'd be imposing your opinions on me (or that gay guy who wants to marry).

Why are we imposing our opinions on you, rather than you imposing your opinions on us?

Doesn't that rest on a default notion of personal rights that may, indeed, be the subject of our "agree to disagree" arguments in the first place?

Well, you (and that religious guy) wouldn't be agreeing to disagree in the first place. You'd be imposing your opinions on me (or that gay guy who wants to marry).

But if the both of us really agreed to disagree and accept that to be the state of the world, then both of us could do what we wanted and respect each other's different choices.

Well, that's my utopia, anyways.

What if your belief is that you must impose your beliefs on others?

well, the economics is more complicated and bound up in some fundamentally incompatible, but at least facially plausible, intuitions of justice and desirable states and the like.

on the other hand, right-wing social positions are essentially completely lacking in viable arguments and just seem laughable when put to even the mildest of tests. which probably also explains the trend away from them in the real world - they rely entirely on insular social forces to maintain themselves, and as those breakdown, so do the positions themselves.

That would be why I specified social issues versus economic or political issues.

i have not rebel against any authority, established order, or ruling power and i have not use or promotes use of violent means to overthrow the established order
so no
Well now..
Are You An Anarchist? The Answer May Surprise You!
<snip>

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12531598#post12531598

<snip>

Doesn't that rest on a default notion of personal rights that may, indeed, be the subject of our "agree to disagree" arguments in the first place?
It does.

What if your belief is that you must impose your beliefs on others?
To be honest, I can't say I really understand or respect that sort of opinion. So maybe I'm not 100% tolerant either.

What my original point was is that NSG might go some way to teaching people that holding such opinions is pointless.

Before I came to NSG I was quite right wing, then as I watched more and more genaralites pwn t3h n00bs, I went further and further left. I found my self jumping on the far left liberal band wagon without really thinking of anything particullarly original for myself. I suddenly became anarchist because I was finding this left liberal/socialist view tedious and stopped posting on NSG for a while although I eventually returned to pathetically attempt to debate using my misunderstood grasp of anarchism. After some thinking, I found anarchism to be completely illogical and impractical, and more of a drugs trip then anything else (no offense).

I then started talking to some people who had been around and had experience in politics, and as I studied more I eventually went to the center left and had realised that NSG was like a magnet, pulling you further and further left. And that the ellagent and well constructed arguments that were so deceivingly convincing was the cause of this.

Do you agree?

Edit: sory for the weirdly confusing poll :D

Edit2: woops, forgot the no option. For those who disagree, just select the Nsg controls our thoughs option.

I'm more of a moderate liberal, and I usually back the Democrats. However, I prefer to think of myself in terms of philosophy, a secular humanist.

I don't if this helps, but...

When I started on NSG I was center-left on the political compass, and now I'm center-right.

On the other hand, my political ideals shifted rather dramatically. From non-existent to evolutionary anarcho-capitalism.

I guess that makes you a Transformer!

Well now..

don't use the bus ,have no kids so only two things on that list fits me
but i still don't give a rats ass about it

don't use the bus ,have no kids so only two things on that list fits me
but i still don't give a rats ass about it

Please I really want to know what your political views are. Have you found some revolutionary new ideaoligy that can't be pinpointed on the political compass?

Mildly. It hasn't caused me to shift in the political spectrum; I've always been on the right, and won't be changing - the only shift was from centre-right monarchism to full-blown anarcho-capitalism. With regard to other things, such as philosophy etc. though NSG can be rather useful for understanding one's one views as well as one's oppositions views.

Well, I started a Social Democrat here, and now I'm a free-market liberal.
I found you irritating back in the old days. :p

i don't have political views

Are you saying all 9,000 posts of yours are spam and chit chat?

Please I really want to know what your political views are. Have you found some revolutionary new ideaoligy that can't be pinpointed on the political compass?

i don't have political views

i don't have political views
Perhaps Hydesland ought to give you some then? <.<

no, i don't think so. i think you might be the exception that proves the rule, hydes. no-one changes their opinion on NSG. actually if anything, since i've been here i've gone slightly right with my economics although i have become even more libertarian socially. still very much left of centre though.

NSG does seem to have a radicalizing effect, despite the wide pluralism in intelligently-argued viewpoints.

Kind of scary when you think about it.

I guess that makes you a Transformer!

That was awful... :p