NationStates Jolt Archive

With the "Are you an outcast?" thread sitting on General today, I've been reminded of a question I wanted to ask.

If you've ever been to uni, you probably know what I'm talking about. But it would work for many, if not most, high schools as well.

I walked past the maths and physics buildings last week (which are conveniently close to each other) and I noticed something: there were people there who...well, they were dorks, nerds and geeks.

Many were sitting by themselves, wearing thick beards, funny haircuts, had little or no sense of dress (not that I'm one to complain), but what really struck me was how miserable they looked. And I sorta know why.

Ever since their early teenage years these people have had to live with not being people that are accepted by a "normal" social environment. Something about them or their interests set them apart from everyone.

As much fun as it might be to get a doctorate in set theory, I'm wondering what made them this way...and to a lesser extent, me too. I may not be quite as isolated and self-contained as those guys, but I'm not exactly a social animal either. Hey, I'm spending a lot of time arguing with people I've never seen and with whom there's no "normal" social interaction going on.

What do you think makes some people social outcasts? Why are they so similar to each other? Is there something parents can do to prevent it and maybe save their child a lot of trouble for a lifetime? How does one break out of this lifestyle (if it is a lifestyle choice, that is) and learn "social skills"?

With the "Are you an outcast?" thread sitting on General today, I've been reminded of a question I wanted to ask.

If you've ever been to uni, you probably know what I'm talking about. But it would work for many, if not most, high schools as well.

I walked past the maths and physics buildings last week (which are conveniently close to each other) and I noticed something: there were people there who...well, they were dorks, nerds and geeks.

Many were sitting by themselves, wearing thick beards, funny haircuts, had little or no sense of dress (not that I'm one to complain), but what really struck me was how miserable they looked. And I sorta know why.

Ever since their early teenage years these people have had to live with not being people that are accepted by a "normal" social environment. Something about them or their interests set them apart from everyone.

As much fun as it might be to get a doctorate in set theory, I'm wondering what made them this way...and to a lesser extent, me too. I may not be quite as isolated and self-contained as those guys, but I'm not exactly a social animal either. Hey, I'm spending a lot of time arguing with people I've never seen and with whom there's no "normal" social interaction going on.

What do you think makes some people social outcasts? Why are they so similar to each other? Is there something parents can do to prevent it and maybe save their child a lot of trouble for a lifetime? How does one break out of this lifestyle (if it is a lifestyle choice, that is) and learn "social skills"?


Genetic disposition, upbringing, and mental health.

Normality is overrated and in my opinion, 'social skills' is learning to tolerate and even appreciate the quirks in others. Sad to say, a lot of those people we call 'dorks', 'geeks' etc. are some of the least tolerant of people different from themselves that you're likely to find. *nod*

Oh come on.. admit it, we all revel in our difference.

Who the hell wants to be part of the homogonous masses...?

Possibly genetic, but I more think upbringing. I also think that moving from Scotland to England when I was about 6/7 had to do with it, too, since I lost all my friends in Edinburgh and nobody really associated with 'the scottish bogey boy' (being my nickname right until year 7) at all. I wasn't encouraged to make friends, either, just to study. My dad worked from 10 until midnight 6 days of the week, so I never leanred to play sport, and didn't join in that at school either.

Now, I'm probably still quite reclusive and quiet, but don't have a close circle of friends. I just get on with some people and don't with others.

Still get called geek by year 10s/11s though. Cunts.

Still get called geek by year 10s/11s though. Cunts.

You do know that it is now considered okay to administer a quick slap to cheeky children?

Were they all miserable? Because I'm sorta like that. But I'm rather shy around strangers (but exceedingly bold around friends) and if I don't know someone really well... as much as I'd like to I can't talk to them.... I just can't. So everyone sorta doesn't want to have anything to do with me and I don't really want anything to do with them. So I've learned to be perfectly happy alone.

Anyway. There probably is something that can be done to stop it. It's just upbringing/genetics.

Oh come on.. admit it, we all revel in our difference.

Who the hell wants to be part of the homogonous masses...?

Bah. When you get many sheets of multicoloured stained-glass and put them on top of each other. The resulting chunk of glass looks black. Those sheets of glass are the people. That black is normality. It doesn't exist. It just looks that way. It looks even more that way when people start conforming to how they think the world is.

Where they all miserable?
Well, I obviously can't look into their heads. But as far as I could tell from their body language they didn't seem relaxed or happy. Apart from the few who sat around with friends they looked rather tense and self-conscious. And I know that I sometimes feel that way, so I figured.

I think it's possible for someone to enjoy computer games or be good at maths and not be a social outcast. The question is why it is so difficult.

Bah. When you get many sheet of multicoloured stained-glass and put them on top of each other. The resulting chunk of glass looks black. Those sheets of glass are the people. That black is normality. It doesn't exist. It just looks that way. It looks even more that way when people start conforming to how they think the world is.

I'm sorely tempted to sig this. I wonder if I could fit it in.

I'm sorely tempted to sig this. I wonder if I could fit it in.

Doubt it. Not without completely destroying your entire existing sig. Don't do that. It's too colourful and pretty.

Doubt it. Not without completely destroying your entire existing sig. Don't do that. It's too colourful and pretty.

Ph34r my sig management skillz.

You do know that it is now considered okay to administer a quick slap to cheeky children?
If only...

I think it's possible for someone to enjoy computer games or be good at maths and not be a social outcast. The question is why it is so difficult.

meh, i enjoy computer games, i'm quite good at maths and sciences and history, i have more than 1000 posts in an internet forum and i don't really think i'm a social outcast. you just have to find a balance between things. don't play games when you could be going out, don't talk about maths when you could talk about something else.
i actually know a quite atractive girl who plays counterstrike and world of warcraft. it was a shock when she told us that :D .

meh, i enjoy computer games, i'm quite good at maths and sciences and history, i have more than 1000 posts in an internet forum and i don't really think i'm a social outcast. you just have to find a balance between things. don't play games when you could be going out, don't talk about maths when you could talk about something else.
i actually know a quite atractive girl who plays counterstrike and world of warcraft. it was a shock when she told us that :D .


Yeah I agree with you. I wonder if the OP is wrongly perciving a 'lack of social skills' and getting that mixed up with 'can be just has happy in his own company'?

I know that my offten times silence among big groups is percibed as lack of social skills or maybe shyness. Heh let me assure you neither is the case, in thruth I prefer to watch and listen a little before I interact with new people.

Society has always been that way. The greatest people in any field are usually eccentrics originally shunned by their peers.

I know that my offten times silence among big groups is percibed as lack of social skills or maybe shyness. Heh let me assure you neither is the case, in thruth I prefer to watch and listen a little before I interact with new people.

people always think i'm arrogant, because i'm also quite quiet round new people, and because i don't really often approach strangers.
once i get to know them better they often stop thinking that.

Socrates wasn't poisoned for being smart, he was poisoned for being weird enough that none of the Athenians could identify with who he was.

Humanity, given its failings, does not deal well with those who are smartest. They don't make sense to you, and you don't make sense to them. I live somewhere in the middle of the two. You'd be shocked, I suppose, to discover that, while they look miserable, many of them have good friends who are elsewhere for the timebeing.

Being socially awkward is perfectly normal when you simple cannot make the time to be anything else (and why would you, when there are more interesting things to be done?). Learning to interact requires interacting with your peers on an interpersonal level regularly, and when your friends are equally un-normal, you become further and further behind, until the thought of jumping out of your social pool and into another is so completely intimidating that you simply cannot.

They have their own culture (as you may know), and, although that culture might seem truly strange to you, it makes sense to them.

I know that my offten times silence among big groups is percibed as lack of social skills or maybe shyness. Heh let me assure you neither is the case, in thruth I prefer to watch and listen a little before I interact with new people.
The problem in my case is moreso that I just don't have anyone here I would call a really close friend.

After school my best mate went away to study a thousand kilometres away, and the other guys got into pubs and clubbing and picking up girls and all that.

Problem is that because I'm similar to you, I'm no fun in a club or pub, and I sure as hell ain't gonna get lucky with some girl that way. So going out isn't a whole lot of fun for me.

Which in turn means that usually I'm not going when the other guys are, we drift apart and I end up feeling a bit outside the loop if we do meet up and have nothing to talk about.

Or maybe it's just because I've got holidays and basically nothing to do but a bit of uni work and I'm bored as hell. I really need to meet people who are more like me...but they're probably sitting at home complaining about how they're never meeting anyone. :p

at times at uni i practically looked down on 'normal' people. this quote kinda explains why:

sad isn't it :(
but also, if you think about it for a moment (TM ;)), the person who is perfectly comfortable going round with long "feminine" hair has to be more secure in their sexuality than those chavs who insist on questioning (to put it mildly) the sexual orientation and masculinity of every other person they see :rolleyes:
bloody chavs :mad:

Totally agreed. On all points. I'd rather be the 'weirdo goth', or 'hippy', than be one of those people that has to be in the company of 4 other identically dressed, and identically drunk, drones in order to make up one whole personality.

The problem in my case is moreso that I just don't have anyone here I would call a really close friend.

After school my best mate went away to study a thousand kilometres away, and the other guys got into pubs and clubbing and picking up girls and all that.

Problem is that because I'm similar to you, I'm no fun in a club or pub, and I sure as hell ain't gonna get lucky with some girl that way. So going out isn't a whole lot of fun for me.

Which in turn means that usually I'm not going when the other guys are, we drift apart and I end up feeling a bit outside the loop if we do meet up and have nothing to talk about.

Or maybe it's just because I've got holidays and basically nothing to do but a bit of uni work and I'm bored as hell. I really need to meet people who are more like me...but they're probably sitting at home complaining about how they're never meeting anyone. :p

Perhaps this video clip will help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lTNZMb4Hg8&NR=1

*nod*

Perhaps this video clip will help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lTNZMb4Hg8&NR=1

*nod*
Actually, I bought the first and second season on DVD the other day. I watched four hours of Family Guy today.

I really, really need something to do.

Actually, I bought the first and second season on DVD the other day. I watched four hours of Family Guy today.

I really, really need something to do.

Take up a hobby: Behave oddly. :)

*shrug* I wouldn't necessarily say it's a lack of social skills. If I'm at a party, I tend to thrive on social interaction. It's just that I don't go out of my way to talk to random people. Largely because I learned long ago the fundamental truth about reality: people suck.

What do you think makes some people social outcasts? Why are they so similar to each other? Is there something parents can do to prevent it and maybe save their child a lot of trouble for a lifetime? How does one break out of this lifestyle (if it is a lifestyle choice, that is) and learn "social skills"?

I think it's a combination of low self-esteem, and a response to a desire to be considered unique and special.

Well, people with low self-esteem need to get some help and break out of it.

And if you think you're unique and special, you haven't been alive very long.

You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

Doubt it. Not without completely destroying your entire existing sig. Don't do that. It's too colourful and pretty.

It is a pretty good quote, though.

You are not special. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

...and here, normally, one would say something like, "You're going to hell for quoting ...." :D

*ahem*

Brian: You are all individuals!
Crowd: YES, YES, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!
Brian: You are all different!
Crowd: YES, WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT!
Lone Voice: I'm not.
Person next to him: SHH!

...and here, normally, one would say something like, "You're going to hell for quoting ...." :D

*ahem*

Remember the First Rule of...

With the "Are you an outcast?" thread sitting on General today, I've been reminded of a question I wanted to ask.

If you've ever been to uni, you probably know what I'm talking about. But it would work for many, if not most, high schools as well.

I walked past the maths and physics buildings last week (which are conveniently close to each other) and I noticed something: there were people there who...well, they were dorks, nerds and geeks.

Many were sitting by themselves, wearing thick beards, funny haircuts, had little or no sense of dress (not that I'm one to complain), but what really struck me was how miserable they looked. And I sorta know why.

Ever since their early teenage years these people have had to live with not being people that are accepted by a "normal" social environment. Something about them or their interests set them apart from everyone.

As much fun as it might be to get a doctorate in set theory, I'm wondering what made them this way...and to a lesser extent, me too. I may not be quite as isolated and self-contained as those guys, but I'm not exactly a social animal either. Hey, I'm spending a lot of time arguing with people I've never seen and with whom there's no "normal" social interaction going on.

What do you think makes some people social outcasts? Why are they so similar to each other? Is there something parents can do to prevent it and maybe save their child a lot of trouble for a lifetime? How does one break out of this lifestyle (if it is a lifestyle choice, that is) and learn "social skills"?

Intelligence makes one a social outcast. Disabilities and other such things do as well, probably more often, but when intelligence does (still fairly often) it doesn't do things by halves.
Many people are smart; I wouldn't hazard a guess at saying how many (or few, depending on how you view humanity nowadays (I go for the few)) are actually intelligent.

Remember the First Rule of...

Oh, snap!

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

Socrates wasn't poisoned for being smart, he was poisoned for being weird enough that none of the Athenians could identify with who he was.
Socrates was poisoned for being an idiot, and a contagious one at that.

Socrates was poisoned for being an idiot, and a contagious one at that.

I thought he invented trolling.

I thought he invented trolling.
Was that a shot? If so, it was very well played.

But, yes, he did indeed. He also invented image spam. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10375109&postcount=135)

Normality is overrated and in my opinion, 'social skills' is learning to tolerate and even appreciate the quirks in others. Sad to say, a lot of those people we call 'dorks', 'geeks' etc. are some of the least tolerant of people different from themselves that you're likely to find. *nod*

QFT.

I was unpopular in school until suddenly in high school it became cool to "be different" then everyone loved me. Whatever. :rolleyes: I am who I am because I want to do what I like......I don't really care if my shirt doesn't match my pants or if you don't like my day-glow orange shoestrings......I don't live to impress anyone.

My husband is still very much a nerd, and he is the nicest non-judgmental person I know......and the outfits he puts together make me wanna scream... but, I don't say anything about it, because he wears what he wants and if I am so prideful that I won't be seen in public with him, well, then he's too good for me.

(seriously though, long underwear under shorts with a shirt that is airbrushed to say "whirled peas"..........:eek:)

I think it's possible for someone to enjoy computer games or be good at maths and not be a social outcast. The question is why it is so difficult.

Beats me, as I've never found it in the least difficult. (Well, at least not as an adult - "nerdy" kids, even socially competent ones, often seem to have trouble finding friends, not so much because of any essential fault in themselves as because the pressure to conform is never greater than it is for kids and teenagers.) I think what may be difficult for some people is figuring out that they don't actually have to conform to any particular mold or stereotype. Many people seem to feel that one's only options are either to be a perfectly conventional conformist, or to be one of a selection of very specific types of "nonconformist" (each of whom are expected to act in the same "nonconforming" way, shop at the same "nonconforming" stores, etc.), and never stop to consider the possibility that one can just ignore all that silliness altogether. It is eminently possible to be a socially competent former mathematical prodigy who is mildly addicted to WoW, laughs her ass off at webcomics about D&D, makes hideously corny science puns, played Quiz Bowl in high school and college, regularly starred in school plays throughout her academic career, majored in music and English, knows the alto lines of about half the madrigals ever written by heart, and periodically goes out swing dancing on weekends. I know this for a very certain fact. I have no idea what social category I belong in, and I don't care, because my friends like me and I like my friends. :)

I think what makes people different is the perception of the others. Add a nice lil feedback loop and you have a nice way to make people dorks :)

I really need to meet people who are more like me...but they're probably sitting at home complaining about how they're never meeting anyone. :p

I'm not exactly complaining... that aside, I would agree with that as well as that:

Learning to interact requires interacting with your peers on an interpersonal level regularly, and when your friends are equally un-normal, you become further and further behind, until the thought of jumping out of your social pool and into another is so completely intimidating that you simply cannot.

They have their own culture (as you may know), and, although that culture might seem truly strange to you, it makes sense to them.

...really, why would I want to alienate the friends I have now just to probably get others when I'm actually happy with my friends? Also, this would mean changing myself at least in some respects; changing oneself to be more socially 'acceptable' is generally a bad idea. IMHO.

(post, needs to be read yet)

:)

How does one break out of this lifestyle (if it is a lifestyle choice, that is) and learn "social skills"?

sex, drugs, and the devil music worked for me

I would not change who i am. I am considered strange by others but largely I believe that the majority of people find me a decent person, due to my not voicing my opinions too loudly or too often. My problems used to make me a social outcast, but I do not believe intelligence will single you out from general society. I am quite an intelligent person, (particularly at maths and science). I used to have a lot of social problems but these seem to have largely dissipated.

To quote Terry pratchett stating my current social situation:

Mr Teatime: "I don't have many friends, don't seem to have the skill, but you know I don't have any enemies at all."

Was that a shot? If so, it was very well played.

But, yes, he did indeed. He also invented image spam. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10375109&postcount=135)

Yes, it was a shot. Should I switch to another club, or should I continue to use the 7 iron?

I blame Gary Gygax. For Everything.

*shakes fist at Gary Gygax*

Normality is overrated and in my opinion, 'social skills' is learning to tolerate and even appreciate the quirks in others. Sad to say, a lot of those people we call 'dorks', 'geeks' etc. are some of the least tolerant of people different from themselves that you're likely to find. *nod*
True enough. It's about relatability. If you're going on about something that no one else can relate to, then they're going to stare blankly you. And it will be ackward. You can't tell a jock who doesn't role play about your 15th level elf and expect him to be anything but bewildered. But he knows just as much about baseball, say, and if you're not into baseball then that stuff is just clicks and whistles. The two of you can't relate. If baseball guy can find a common ground and roleplayer guy can't, then roleplayer guy isolated himself. This is not to say that he should form an interest in baseball, fuck that. If you don't like it don't bother. But 'social skills' is really just finding a ground to talk on that isn't specific to whatever it is you spend most of your time doing.
Socrates wasn't poisoned for being smart, he was poisoned for being weird enough that none of the Athenians could identify with who he was.

Humanity, given its failings, does not deal well with those who are smartest. They don't make sense to you, and you don't make sense to them. I live somewhere in the middle of the two. You'd be shocked, I suppose, to discover that, while they look miserable, many of them have good friends who are elsewhere for the timebeing.

Being socially awkward is perfectly normal when you simple cannot make the time to be anything else (and why would you, when there are more interesting things to be done?). Learning to interact requires interacting with your peers on an interpersonal level regularly, and when your friends are equally un-normal, you become further and further behind, until the thought of jumping out of your social pool and into another is so completely intimidating that you simply cannot.

They have their own culture (as you may know), and, although that culture might seem truly strange to you, it makes sense to them.

I don't actually buy this (the intellegence part) because I've know some damn smart cats who were also very social and well liked people across the board. They didn't 'dumb themselves down,' but at the same time didn't use their intellegence as a sword and shield. They just engaged with people, and if people like things they thought were vapid, they didn't fiegn interest, but they didn't spazz about it or insist on talking about quadradic equations of quoting literature either.

Oh come on.. admit it, we all revel in our difference.

Who the hell wants to be part of the homogonous masses...?

Homogeneous.

meh, i enjoy computer games, i'm quite good at maths and sciences and history, i have more than 1000 posts in an internet forum and i don't really think i'm a social outcast. you just have to find a balance between things. don't play games when you could be going out, don't talk about maths when you could talk about something else.
i actually know a quite atractive girl who plays counterstrike and world of warcraft. it was a shock when she told us that :D .

Sounds like somebody I know. :)