NationStates Jolt Archive

In a recent discussion with a freind of mine about politics, it came up that he said that in the US it was illegal to be a communist. At first I found this very odd and strange and asked for an example of a law or some sort of case where someone had been arrested under the offence of communisim in the post cold war world. He explained that Bill Bryson, who himself is an American citizen and his wife too had a daughter during their time in the United Kingdom and when she returned, in order to enter the country, she had to swear that she was not a communist and did not plan to set up any communist organistions or ferment communist feeling in the US. This was part of an offical immigration entry procedure. My question here is, was this kind of thing common practise and if so, is it still in place. If it is, the American people have some questions to ask of their government. My understanding of freedom of thought means that you can believe and think what you like, even if it is opposed to the majority's view.

In a recent discussion with a freind of mine about politics, it came up that he said that in the US it was illegal to be a communist. At first I found this very odd and strange and asked for an example of a law or some sort of case where someone had been arrested under the offence of communisim in the post cold war world. He explained that Bill Bryson, who himself is an American citizen and his wife too had a daughter during their time in the United Kingdom and when she returned, in order to enter the country, she had to swear that she was not a communist and did not plan to set up any communist organistions or ferment communist feeling in the US. This was part of an offical immigration entry procedure. My question here is, was this kind of thing common practise and if so, is it still in place. If it is, the American people have some questions to ask of their government. My understanding of freedom of thought means that you can believe and think what you like, even if it is opposed to the majority's view.

...

Got any actual evidence of this?

Got any actual evidence of this?

Only Bill Bryson's account by proxy heard from my friend. Its in the book "notes from a big country". I dont personally think thats much to go on which is why I'm asking here.

In a recent discussion with a freind of mine about politics, it came up that he said that in the US it was illegal to be a communist. At first I found this very odd and strange and asked for an example of a law or some sort of case where someone had been arrested under the offence of communisim in the post cold war world. He explained that Bill Bryson, who himself is an American citizen and his wife too had a daughter during their time in the United Kingdom and when she returned, in order to enter the country, she had to swear that she was not a communist and did not plan to set up any communist organistions or ferment communist feeling in the US. This was part of an offical immigration entry procedure. My question here is, was this kind of thing common practise and if so, is it still in place. If it is, the American people have some questions to ask of their government. My understanding of freedom of thought means that you can believe and think what you like, even if it is opposed to the majority's view.

Source would be good. Not just "my friend said it." OceanDrive did that. Reactions were baaaaad.

Any linky-links?

Last I checked, the American immigration procedure had no questions about communism.

Source would be good. Not just "my friend said it." OceanDrive did that. Reactions were baaaaad.

Like I said, its in Bill Bryson's book "Notes from a big country". I don't have a copy to hand thats why I'm asking

Source would be good. Not just "my friend said it." OceanDrive did that. Reactions were baaaaad.

In the end he was proven right-ish though

In the end he was proven right-ish though
Rather much less than right, actually.

His claims were that the crew had been doing crazy deep-penetration spying, which they had not been.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Citizenship_and_Immigration_Services
http://www.foreignborn.com/visas_imm/immigrant_visas/9imm_process.htm

Feel free to search the wikis.

No, he was claiming that the UK was spying on Iran 007-style, when they really weren't. They were asking fishing dhows about suspicious activity.

Suspicious activities in general, I might add. Not just about Iran.

In the end he was proven right-ish though

No, he was claiming that the UK was spying on Iran 007-style, when they really weren't. They were asking fishing dhows about suspicious activity.

I heard it's illegal to promote communism in a few states, but I can't substantiate that. Speculation is far more fun than reasoned, factual debate.

I heard it's illegal to promote communism in a few states, but I can't substantiate that. Speculation is far more fun than reasoned, factual debate.

If thats true the US needs to get with Voltaire on freedom

If thats true the US needs to get with Voltaire on freedom

It isn't true. It's a myth with bizarre origins, to say the least.

No, he was claiming that the UK was spying on Iran 007-style, when they really weren't. They were asking fishing dhows about suspicious activity.

I know there was little exitement to that story

...

Got any actual evidence of this?

I believe the question was still there a few years ago on visa applications, but was removed within the last decade or so.

Any linky-links?

Last I checked, the American immigration procedure had no questions about communism.
I don't know about immigration under a residency application, but just to get a visa to travel THROUGH the US, you must list any organisations you are a member of. You are SPECIFICALLY asked if you a member of a communist party.

It doesn't mean you have no chance of getting the visa. But if you lie, and get caught, you'll probably be banned from further entries, and if you tell the truth, you tend to get more attention at airport security.

I'd say, 'avoid the US', but Canada asks the same questions.

IIRC, they do ask if you belong to any organization that advocates the "forcible overthrow of the government".

If thats true the US needs to get with Voltaire on freedom
If. It probably isn't. I was just throwing a similar rumour out there.

In a recent discussion with a freind of mine about politics, it came up that he said that in the US it was illegal to be a communist. At first I found this very odd and strange and asked for an example of a law or some sort of case where someone had been arrested under the offence of communisim in the post cold war world. He explained that Bill Bryson, who himself is an American citizen and his wife too had a daughter during their time in the United Kingdom and when she returned, in order to enter the country, she had to swear that she was not a communist and did not plan to set up any communist organistions or ferment communist feeling in the US. This was part of an offical immigration entry procedure. My question here is, was this kind of thing common practise and if so, is it still in place. If it is, the American people have some questions to ask of their government. My understanding of freedom of thought means that you can believe and think what you like, even if it is opposed to the majority's view.
I've got 'Notes from a big country' in front of me now, and the anecdote is about an academic aquaintance of Bill Bryson - and his 5 year old daughter who was asked "Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party or any other known totalitarian party" (or words to that effect - second hand anecdote alert). This is very different from being asked to swear you are not a member, etc. etc. So your friend has got his evidence a bit wrong.

I imagine if you said, yes you were a member of the communist party, the immigration goons would at least dither about letting you in, however.

If nothing else, I think Elizabeth Anna Duke is wanted for communism. Not sure if that is reliable though, basing that on the source and that it came out on February 10, 2006. http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=spot_the_pedo

If nothing else, I think Elizabeth Anna Duke is wanted for communism. Not sure if that is reliable though, basing that on the source and that it came out on February 10, 2006.

WTF?? Communism...pedophilia? What sort of connection are you trying to make here?

Silly hold-over from half a century ago. Acknowledge and move on.

I heard it's illegal to promote communism in a few states, but I can't substantiate that. Speculation is far more fun than reasoned, factual debate.

If. It probably isn't. I was just throwing a similar rumour out there.
The closest I got was a ban passed by the Nebraska Judiciary Committee, but no mention of the entire legislature - probably didn't pass then. The problem with trying to find anything is that you end up inevitably with pages of "ban the ACLU - they're communists!!!!!" blogs.

In a recent discussion with a freind of mine about politics, it came up that he said that in the US it was illegal to be a communist. At first I found this very odd and strange and asked for an example of a law or some sort of case where someone had been arrested under the offence of communisim in the post cold war world. He explained that Bill Bryson, who himself is an American citizen and his wife too had a daughter during their time in the United Kingdom and when she returned, in order to enter the country, she had to swear that she was not a communist and did not plan to set up any communist organistions or ferment communist feeling in the US. This was part of an offical immigration entry procedure. My question here is, was this kind of thing common practise and if so, is it still in place. If it is, the American people have some questions to ask of their government. My understanding of freedom of thought means that you can believe and think what you like, even if it is opposed to the majority's view.

If we do not have any such law we need to get one. Damn commies!

I don't know about immigration under a residency application, but just to get a visa to travel THROUGH the US, you must list any organisations you are a member of. You are SPECIFICALLY asked if you a member of a communist party.

It doesn't mean you have no chance of getting the visa. But if you lie, and get caught, you'll probably be banned from further entries, and if you tell the truth, you tend to get more attention at airport security.

I'd say, 'avoid the US', but Canada asks the same questions.

I looked into that a bit more, and it would seem to be that the reasoning behind asking these questions during the Cold War era had an awful lot to do with Soviet NKVD and KGB infiltration of various communist parties throughout Europe. See what associations they'd had with groups such as COMINTERN and COMINFORM (both of which were organs of the Soviet state).

Especially knowing that some of the greatest successes of the USSR in infiltrating western intelligence agencies were made through the use of such contacts (The Cambridge Five, for example). Asking such a question does indeed seem to be something worthy of concern.

Why it continued after the fall of the USSR is most likely bureaucratic inertia. No one bothered to change it.

I've been through US immigration probably half a dozen times since 1999 and I've never been asked a question remotely like that. In fact, they've never asked me any political questions.

I've also crossed the US border by land several dozen times and have never been asked any political questions there either.

I don't know about immigration under a residency application, but just to get a visa to travel THROUGH the US, you must list any organisations you are a member of. You are SPECIFICALLY asked if you a member of a communist party.

It doesn't mean you have no chance of getting the visa. But if you lie, and get caught, you'll probably be banned from further entries, and if you tell the truth, you tend to get more attention at airport security.

I'd say, 'avoid the US', but Canada asks the same questions.

I don't know when you last enered the US but your statement is no longer true, or at least is not true for Citizens/Passport holders of the following countries:

Andorra, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.

If you are from the above countries you have to fill out an I-94W Form which asks the following questions:

Do any of the following apply to you ? (Answer Yes or No)

A Do you have a communicable disease physical or mental disorder, or are you a drug abuser or addict ?

B Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or have been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentance to confinement was five years or more; or have been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities ?

C Have you ever been or are you now involved in espionage or sabotage; or in terroist activities; or genocide; or between 1933 and 1945 were you involved; in any way in persecutions associated with Nazi Germany or its allies ?

D Are you seeking to work in the U.S.; or have you ever been excluded and deported; or have been previously removed from the United States; or procurred or attempted to procure a visa or entry into the U.S. by fraud or by misrepresentation ?

E Have you ever detained, retained or witheld custody of a child from a U.S. citizen granted custody of the child ?

F Have you ever been denied a U.S. visa or entry into the U.S. or had a U.S. visa caneled? If yes; when and where ?

G Have you ever asserted immunity from prosecution ?

Important: If you answered "Yes" to any of the above please contact the American Embassy before you travel to the U.S. since you may be refused admission into the United States.


C is the only question involving groups, and it explicitly asks about the Nazi party, not the Communist party. There is no requirement to list any other groups.

There are NO questions at immigration about communism. Normaly they ask:

1. What are you here for?
2. How long are you staying?

Then they bid you a safe trip.

<snip>I'm from the UK, there are certain reasons for travelling for which you still need a visa, so the question could still be in there. Also, what happens if you're not from these countries? I need an interview at the American Embassy to get my student visa - guess I'll report back in june.

According to these lawyers, it may well be:

This is a summary of the grounds of exclusion, or "inadmissibility" for US visas. If you have any questions about how this list might apply to you or any member of your immediate family who will be applying for a visa with you, please contact our immigration lawyers.

...Security Grounds

Believed to be entering to spy, or to violate export control laws, or any other laws
Terrorist, Nazi, or genocide participation, membership, or support
Immigrant with membership in a communist-affiliated organization


This is from a website run by immigration lawyers:
http://www.visawolf.com/PracticeAreas/Inadmissible-Conditions-List.asp

Additionally, it is a problem if you wish to become a naturalised citizen of the USA:

313 PROHIBITION UPON THE NATURALIZATION OF PERSONS OPPOSED TO GOVERNMENT OR LAW, OR WHO FAVOR TOTALITARIAN FORMS OF GOVERNMENT
SEC. 313. [8 U.S.C. 1424]

(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 405(b), no person shall hereafter be naturalized as a citizen of the United States-

(1) who advocates or teaches, or who is a member of or affiliated with any organization that advocates or teaches, opposition to all organized government; or

(2) who is a member of or affiliated with (A) the Communist Party of the United States; (B) any other totalitarian party of the United States; (C) the Communist Political Association; (D) the Communist or other totalitarian party of any State of the United States, of any foreign state, or of any political or geographical subdivision of any foreign state; (E) any section, subsidiary, branch, affiliate, or subdivision of any such association or party; or (F) the direct predecessors or successors of any such association or party, regardless of what name such group or organization may have used, may now bear, or may hereafter adopt, unless such alien establishes that he did not have knowledge or reason to believe at the time he became a member of or affiliated with such an organization (and did not thereafter and prior to the date upon which such organization was so registered or so required to be registered have such knowledge or reason to believe) that such organization was a Communist-front organization; ...

http://www.immigration-usa.com/ina_96_title_3.html

"(1) who advocates or teaches, or who is a member of or affiliated with any organization that advocates or teaches, opposition to all organized government; or "


So anarchists are persona-non-grata too?

Wait. Do anarchists have organizations? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

In a recent discussion with a freind of mine about politics, it came up that he said that in the US it was illegal to be a communist. At first I found this very odd and strange and asked for an example of a law or some sort of case where someone had been arrested under the offence of communisim in the post cold war world. He explained that Bill Bryson, who himself is an American citizen and his wife too had a daughter during their time in the United Kingdom and when she returned, in order to enter the country, she had to swear that she was not a communist and did not plan to set up any communist organistions or ferment communist feeling in the US. This was part of an offical immigration entry procedure. My question here is, was this kind of thing common practise and if so, is it still in place. If it is, the American people have some questions to ask of their government. My understanding of freedom of thought means that you can believe and think what you like, even if it is opposed to the majority's view.

I'm American, and I hope not.

It isn't true. It's a myth with bizarre origins, to say the least.

Really?
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=274&invol=357
Criminal Syndicalism Act of that State. Statutes 1919, c. 188, p. 281
Having someone be imprisoned for having spoke at a communism party convention on an innocent topic once, and having LEFT that party out of disagreement but yet be imprisoned for having preached communism seems like a rather non bizarre origin of an exaggeration (at least what appears to be such)

Edit: Not to mention "loyalty review" boards on the Federal State and Local levels, I mean come on that is not a bizare start to a myth at all when you have the government calling people in to account for their "loyalty"

I'm from the UK, there are certain reasons for travelling for which you still need a visa, so the question could still be in there. Also, what happens if you're not from these countries? I need an interview at the American Embassy to get my student visa - guess I'll report back in june.
I was addressing the 'just visiting' type visa mentioned, but as Gift of God informs us below it seems they are more stringent on Immigration visas.

According to these lawyers, it may well be:



This is from a website run by immigration lawyers:
http://www.visawolf.com/PracticeAreas/Inadmissible-Conditions-List.asp

Additionally, it is a problem if you wish to become a naturalised citizen of the USA:



http://www.immigration-usa.com/ina_96_title_3.html

Go go democracy, freedom of association, freedom of speech and freedom of beliefs ...

Meh - I'm a Thatcherite so I guess I'm OK.

Andaluciae
It isn't true. It's a myth with bizarre origins, to say the least.
What were the McCarthy Trials about?

There are NO questions at immigration about communism. Normaly they ask:

1. What are you here for?
2. How long are you staying?

Then they bid you a safe trip.

A few years ago I was on a business trip to the USA which promised to be far from hard work. I was accompanied by my good friend and colleague and was looking forward to an easy few days. So when the Immigration Officer asked the purpose of my trip, I replied "I'm on a jolly". I'm not sure if that means something else across the pond, but I was tied up there for a good long while as they checked every possible detail with my employer, client and hotel. I've been on best behaviour on all my subsequent trips :p

A few years ago I was on a business trip to the USA which promised to be far from hard work. I was accompanied by my good friend and colleague and was looking forward to an easy few days. So when the Immigration Officer asked the purpose of my trip, I replied "I'm on a jolly". I'm not sure if that means something else across the pond, but I was tied up there for a good long while as they checked every possible detail with my employer, client and hotel. I've been on best behaviour on all my subsequent trips :p

I must have an innocent face :)

That said - I can inform you that yelling out "It's so fucking easy to get into this country" as you go past Immigration in New Zealand is a very good way to get locked in a room for several hours before being strip searched. The prick held our bus up for almost 6 hours after a 24 hour flight.

In other informative news - Don't piss on the electric fence.

I know as recently as 1996 it was illegal to transport communist paraphernalia within or through the state of Louisiana.

(2) who is a member of or affiliated with (A) the Communist Party of the United States; (B) any other totalitarian party of the United States; (C) the Communist Political Association; (D) the Communist or other totalitarian party of any State of the United States, of any foreign state, or of any political or geographical subdivision of any foreign state; (E) any section, subsidiary, branch, affiliate, or subdivision of any such association or party; or (F) the direct predecessors or successors of any such association or party, regardless of what name such group or organization may have used, may now bear, or may hereafter adopt, unless such alien establishes that he did not have knowledge or reason to believe at the time he became a member of or affiliated with such an organization (and did not thereafter and prior to the date upon which such organization was so registered or so required to be registered have such knowledge or reason to believe) that such organization was a Communist-front organization;
It looks like you're allowed to oppose democracy as long as you were never a member of a group that opposed democracy.

I hate all commies! Nukes would have been to good for 'em! At elast we have some Oriental commies and cubans that we can still nuke up like microwavable popcorn. Yeehahh!