NationStates Jolt Archive


Chomsky Speaks!

Trotskylvania
07-04-2007, 00:18
With the "problems" going on with Iran, I think its great that Noam Chomsky has just published an article on US-Iranian relationships. It's full of his usually dry sarcasm, and makes a pretty great point about double-standards. I think its worth a read.

What If Iran Had Invaded Mexico?

Noam Chomsky
April 06, 2007
TomDispatch

Unsurprisingly, George W. Bush's announcement of a "surge" in Iraq came despite the firm opposition to any such move of Americans and the even stronger opposition of the (thoroughly irrelevant) Iraqis. It was accompanied by ominous official leaks and statements—from Washington and Baghdad—about how Iranian intervention in Iraq was aimed at disrupting our mission to gain victory, an aim which is (by definition) noble. What then followed was a solemn debate about whether serial numbers on advanced roadside bombs (IEDs) were really traceable to Iran; and, if so, to that country's Revolutionary Guards or to some even higher authority.

This "debate" is a typical illustration of a primary principle of sophisticated propaganda. In crude and brutal societies, the Party Line is publicly proclaimed and must be obeyed—or else. What you actually believe is your own business and of far less concern. In societies where the state has lost the capacity to control by force, the Party Line is simply presupposed; then, vigorous debate is encouraged within the limits imposed by unstated doctrinal orthodoxy. The cruder of the two systems leads, naturally enough, to disbelief; the sophisticated variant gives an impression of openness and freedom, and so far more effectively serves to instill the Party Line. It becomes beyond question, beyond thought itself, like the air we breathe.

The debate over Iranian interference in Iraq proceeds without ridicule on the assumption that the United States owns the world. We did not, for example, engage in a similar debate in the 1980s about whether the U.S. was interfering in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan, and I doubt that Pravda, probably recognizing the absurdity of the situation, sank to outrage about that fact (which American officials and our media, in any case, made no effort to conceal). Perhaps the official Nazi press also featured solemn debates about whether the Allies were interfering in sovereign Vichy France, though if so, sane people would then have collapsed in ridicule.

In this case, however, even ridicule—notably absent—would not suffice, because the charges against Iran are part of a drumbeat of pronouncements meant to mobilize support for escalation in Iraq and for an attack on Iran, the "source of the problem." The world is aghast at the possibility. Even in neighboring Sunni states, no friends of Iran, majorities, when asked, favor a nuclear-armed Iran over any military action against that country. From what limited information we have, it appears that significant parts of the U.S. military and intelligence communities are opposed to such an attack, along with almost the entire world, even more so than when the Bush administration and Tony Blair's Britain invaded Iraq, defying enormous popular opposition worldwide.

"The Iran Effect"

The results of an attack on Iran could be horrendous. After all, according to a recent study of "the Iraq effect" by terrorism specialists Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank, using government and Rand Corporation data, the Iraq invasion has already led to a seven-fold increase in terror. The "Iran effect" would probably be far more severe and long-lasting. British military historian Corelli Barnett speaks for many when he warns that "an attack on Iran would effectively launch World War III."

What are the plans of the increasingly desperate clique that narrowly holds political power in the U.S.? We cannot know. Such state planning is, of course, kept secret in the interests of "security." Review of the declassified record reveals that there is considerable merit in that claim—though only if we understand "security" to mean the security of the Bush administration against their domestic enemy, the population in whose name they act.

Even if the White House clique is not planning war, naval deployments, support for secessionist movements and acts of terror within Iran, and other provocations could easily lead to an accidental war. Congressional resolutions would not provide much of a barrier. They invariably permit "national security" exemptions, opening holes wide enough for the several aircraft-carrier battle groups soon to be in the Persian Gulf to pass through—as long as an unscrupulous leadership issues proclamations of doom (as Condoleezza Rice did with those "mushroom clouds" over American cities back in 2002). And the concocting of the sorts of incidents that "justify" such attacks is a familiar practice. Even the worst monsters feel the need for such justification and adopt the device: Hitler's defense of innocent Germany from the "wild terror" of the Poles in 1939, after they had rejected his wise and generous proposals for peace, is but one example.

The most effective barrier to a White House decision to launch a war is the kind of organized popular opposition that frightened the political-military leadership enough in 1968 that they were reluctant to send more troops to Vietnam—fearing, we learned from the Pentagon Papers , that they might need them for civil-disorder control.

Doubtless Iran's government merits harsh condemnation, including for its recent actions that have inflamed the crisis. It is, however, useful to ask how we would act if Iran had invaded and occupied Canada and Mexico and was arresting U.S. government representatives there on the grounds that they were resisting the Iranian occupation (called "liberation," of course). Imagine as well that Iran was deploying massive naval forces in the Caribbean and issuing credible threats to launch a wave of attacks against a vast range of sites—nuclear and otherwise—in the United States, if the U.S. government did not immediately terminate all its nuclear energy programs (and, naturally, dismantle all its nuclear weapons). Suppose that all of this happened after Iran had overthrown the government of the U.S. and installed a vicious tyrant (as the US did to Iran in 1953), then later supported a Russian invasion of the U.S. that killed millions of people (just as the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran in 1980, killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians, a figure comparable to millions of Americans). Would we watch quietly?

It is easy to understand an observation by one of Israel's leading military historians, Martin van Creveld. After the U.S. invaded Iraq, knowing it to be defenseless, he noted, "Had the Iranians not tried to build nuclear weapons, they would be crazy."

Surely no sane person wants Iran (or any nation) to develop nuclear weapons. A reasonable resolution of the present crisis would permit Iran to develop nuclear energy, in accord with its rights under the Non-Proliferation Treaty, but not nuclear weapons. Is that outcome feasible? It would be, given one condition: that the U.S. and Iran were functioning democratic societies in which public opinion had a significant impact on public policy.

As it happens, this solution has overwhelming support among Iranians and Americans, who generally are in agreement on nuclear issues. The Iranian-American consensus includes the complete elimination of nuclear weapons everywhere (82 percent of Americans); if that cannot yet be achieved because of elite opposition, then at least a "nuclear-weapons-free zone in the Middle East that would include both Islamic countries and Israel" (71 percent of Americans). Seventy-five percent of Americans prefer building better relations with Iran to threats of force. In brief, if public opinion were to have a significant influence on state policy in the U.S. and Iran, resolution of the crisis might be at hand, along with much more far-reaching solutions to the global nuclear conundrum.

Promoting Democracy—at Home

These facts suggest a possible way to prevent the current crisis from exploding, perhaps even into some version of World War III. That awesome threat might be averted by pursuing a familiar proposal: democracy promotion—this time at home, where it is badly needed. Democracy promotion at home is certainly feasible and, although we cannot carry out such a project directly in Iran, we could act to improve the prospects of the courageous reformers and oppositionists who are seeking to achieve just that. Among such figures who are, or should be, well-known, would be Saeed Hajjarian, Nobel laureate Shirin Ebadi, and Akbar Ganji, as well as those who, as usual, remain nameless, among them labor activists about whom we hear very little; those who publish the Iranian Workers Bulletin may be a case in point.

We can best improve the prospects for democracy promotion in Iran by sharply reversing state policy here so that it reflects popular opinion. That would entail ceasing to make the regular threats that are a gift to Iranian hardliners. These are bitterly condemned by Iranians truly concerned with democracy promotion (unlike those "supporters" who flaunt democracy slogans in the West and are lauded as grand "idealists" despite their clear record of visceral hatred for democracy).

Democracy promotion in the United States could have far broader consequences. In Iraq, for instance, a firm timetable for withdrawal would be initiated at once, or very soon, in accord with the will of the overwhelming majority of Iraqis and a significant majority of Americans. Federal budget priorities would be virtually reversed. Where spending is rising, as in military supplemental bills to conduct the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would sharply decline. Where spending is steady or declining (health, education, job training, the promotion of energy conservation and renewable energy sources, veterans benefits, funding for the UN and UN peacekeeping operations, and so on), it would sharply increase. Bush's tax cuts for people with incomes over $200,000 a year would be immediately rescinded.

The U.S. would have adopted a national health-care system long ago, rejecting the privatized system that sports twice the per-capita costs found in similar societies and some of the worst outcomes in the industrial world. It would have rejected what is widely regarded by those who pay attention as a "fiscal train wreck" in-the-making. The U.S. would have ratified the Kyoto Protocol to reduce carbon-dioxide emissions and undertaken still stronger measures to protect the environment. It would allow the UN to take the lead in international crises, including in Iraq. After all, according to opinion polls, since shortly after the 2003 invasion, a large majority of Americans have wanted the UN to take charge of political transformation, economic reconstruction, and civil order in that land.

If public opinion mattered, the U.S. would accept UN Charter restrictions on the use of force, contrary to a bipartisan consensus that this country, alone, has the right to resort to violence in response to potential threats, real or imagined, including threats to our access to markets and resources. The U.S. (along with others) would abandon the Security Council veto and accept majority opinion even when in opposition to it. The UN would be allowed to regulate arms sales; while the U.S. would cut back on such sales and urge other countries to do so, which would be a major contribution to reducing large-scale violence in the world. Terror would be dealt with through diplomatic and economic measures, not force, in accord with the judgment of most specialists on the topic but again in diametric opposition to present-day policy.

Furthermore, if public opinion influenced policy, the U.S. would have diplomatic relations with Cuba, benefiting the people of both countries (and, incidentally, U.S. agribusiness, energy corporations, and others), instead of standing virtually alone in the world in imposing an embargo (joined only by Israel, the Republic of Palau, and the Marshall Islands). Washington would join the broad international consensus on a two-state settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict, which (with Israel) it has blocked for 30 years—with scattered and temporary exceptions—and which it still blocks in word, and more importantly in deed, despite fraudulent claims of its commitment to diplomacy. The U.S. would also equalize aid to Israel and Palestine, cutting off aid to either party that rejected the international consensus.

Evidence on these matters is reviewed in my book Failed States as well as in The Foreign Policy Disconnect by Benjamin Page (with Marshall Bouton), which also provides extensive evidence that public opinion on foreign (and probably domestic) policy issues tends to be coherent and consistent over long periods. Studies of public opinion have to be regarded with caution, but they are certainly highly suggestive.

Democracy promotion at home, while no panacea, would be a useful step towards helping our own country become a "responsible stakeholder" in the international order (to adopt the term used for adversaries), instead of being an object of fear and dislike throughout much of the world. Apart from being a value in itself, functioning democracy at home holds real promise for dealing constructively with many current problems, international and domestic, including those that literally threaten the survival of our species.

Straight from Infoshop (http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20070406105859591)
Zarakon
07-04-2007, 00:24
Well, that's hardly an innovative view.
Congo--Kinshasa
07-04-2007, 00:24
Chomsky's a great one to talk about double standards. Frequently attacks the rich and privileged, even though he himself is quite wealthy. Frequently attacks Western-supported dictators, while drooling over leftist tyrants in the Third World.
Trotskylvania
07-04-2007, 00:32
Well, that's hardly an innovative view.

Well, liberals will sometimes listen to Chomsky. They won't listen to me or others who've espoused the same view.

Chomsky's a great one to talk about double standards. Frequently attacks the rich and privileged, even though he himself is quite wealthy. Frequently attacks Western-supported dictators, while drooling over leftist tyrants in the Third World.

We're dealing with orders of magnitude here. It may be hypocritical of Chomsky to be upper middle income and be so vehemently anarchist, but it doesn't change the fact that he has made good points. To my knowledge, he's never "drooled" over leftist tyrants. What he has done is point out the double standard in mainstream media coverage.
Neu Leonstein
07-04-2007, 00:33
Good for him.

Though I think he too presupposes something: namely that the US leadership is actually seriously interested in fighting Iran, which I don't think it is.

They've got another year or so in office - that's not enough to win a war like this.

They don't actually have the military capacity to do so without throwing the US military into a state of disarray that would take a decade to get sorted out.

They don't actually have a congress or a public that would support them.

They don't have any allies whatsoever if they were to push for war.

The really hardcore neocons have fallen to domestic politics. Cheney is left, but other than that all the guys who controlled the departments in question have been replaced with more moderate or (gasp) pragmatic types.

The military itself will have learned from the Iraq situation that this sort of thing simply isn't what they would want to get involved in. And after what the politicians did to the military in Iraq, they will not be as afraid to actually speak out.

No, as much as Cheney and perhaps a few neocon writers and underlings would like to fight another war against evil, they know fully well that their hands are tied for some time to come. Hence the sanctions, the diplomatic initiatives (through Saudi Arabia, the UN and the EU) and so on.
UNITIHU
07-04-2007, 00:40
I wish MY last name was Chomsky. It's so fun to say. Say it out loud.

Chomsky.
New Genoa
07-04-2007, 00:46
Oh that Chomsky. Epitome of your average upper class socialist rabble rouser.
The SR
07-04-2007, 05:36
Frequently attacks Western-supported dictators, while drooling over leftist tyrants in the Third World.


one example please?
Zarakon
07-04-2007, 05:38
Good for him.

Though I think he too presupposes something: namely that the US leadership is actually seriously interested in fighting Iran, which I don't think it is.

They've got another year or so in office - that's not enough to win a war like this.

They don't actually have the military capacity to do so without throwing the US military into a state of disarray that would take a decade to get sorted out.

They don't actually have a congress or a public that would support them.

They don't have any allies whatsoever if they were to push for war.

The really hardcore neocons have fallen to domestic politics. Cheney is left, but other than that all the guys who controlled the departments in question have been replaced with more moderate or (gasp) pragmatic types.

The military itself will have learned from the Iraq situation that this sort of thing simply isn't what they would want to get involved in. And after what the politicians did to the military in Iraq, they will not be as afraid to actually speak out.

No, as much as Cheney and perhaps a few neocon writers and underlings would like to fight another war against evil, they know fully well that their hands are tied for some time to come. Hence the sanctions, the diplomatic initiatives (through Saudi Arabia, the UN and the EU) and so on.

That's never stopped them before.
AchillesLastStand
07-04-2007, 05:58
one example please?

Read the part where he says the USA should resume trade with Cuba. While not specifically mentioning Castro, this would without a doubt help him. Would Chomsky want to trade with a Pinochet, for example?
AchillesLastStand
07-04-2007, 06:04
Chomsky's naivete when it comes to foreign policy is beyond absurd. For him, the UN is the ultimate solver of all problems. I was clutching my sides in laughter when reading about his somber suggestions of the UN providing "international relief efforts" and peace to Iraq.

Whenever the UN has done something, like in Korea, it was mostly with American help. Remember, NATO, not the UN, stopped the Bosnian genocide.

Tell me, what is the UN doing for Darfur, a crisis far worse than Iraq? What is the UN doing to help the people of North Korea? What is the UN doing...well, you get the point.

It is one of the greatest disappointments of life that the UN has failed so miserably in its mission.
Arthais101
07-04-2007, 06:09
It may be hypocritical of Chomsky to be upper middle income and be so vehemently anarchist,

No it isn't.
Soviet Haaregrad
07-04-2007, 06:18
Read the part where he says the USA should resume trade with Cuba. While not specifically mentioning Castro, this would without a doubt help him. Would Chomsky want to trade with a Pinochet, for example?

It's unlikely he would, however, the US has never had a problem sucking up to right wing dictators worldwide. What makes Castro so much worse then Pinochet? What makes Cuba more deserving of embargo than Chile was? Justify the double standard or admit it's hypocritical.
AchillesLastStand
07-04-2007, 06:23
It's unlikely he would, however, the US has never had a problem sucking up to right wing dictators worldwide. What makes Castro so much worse then Pinochet? What makes Cuba more deserving of embargo than Chile was? Justify the double standard or admit it's hypocritical.

The right-wing dictators were also pro-capitalist and had stronger ties to the US. The lefties like Castro were ideologically allied with the USSR.

Whether Castro was worse than Pinochet or not is something worthy of debating, but my point is that Chomsky has no problem resuming regular relations with Castro. Whether he would do the same for a right-winger like Pinochet is something I'd love to know, but I don't know about Chomsky to say.
Similization
07-04-2007, 07:22
The right-wing dictators were also pro-capitalist and had stronger ties to the US. The lefties like Castro were ideologically allied with the USSR. Does mentioning the USSR magically allow the US to systematically sabotage foreign sovereign states?Whether Castro was worse than Pinochet or not is something worthy of debating, but my point is that Chomsky has no problem resuming regular relations with Castro. Whether he would do the same for a right-winger like Pinochet is something I'd love to know, but I don't know about Chomsky to say.I don't want to seem flamey, but mate.. That's completely fucking absurd.

You're basically saying: "Sure, there's no reason to sabotage Cuba, but does wanting to end the US sabotage of Cuba also mean Chomsky wants to encourage economic relations with a murderous bastard?"

Seriously man, what the fuck?
Soheran
07-04-2007, 07:38
Noticed this piece earlier; thought of posting it.

Chomsky at his best.
Soheran
07-04-2007, 08:01
No it isn't.

Um... why not?

He's a hypocrite. So are all people, generally. We should accept it, and move on.
Neu Leonstein
07-04-2007, 11:50
That's never stopped them before.
It stopped the combo McArthur/Truman, didn't it?

The time of the ideologues is over for now. They ran so hard into this wall called Iraq that no one who talks in terms of grand historical projects is going to be listened to for a while. For now people will listen to pragmatists, people who have small, attainable goals and know how to achieve them.

Look at how the Iranian hostage crisis ended. Did any of the ideologues win? No, but the pragmatists in Britain and Iran did.
Canada6
07-04-2007, 17:09
Interesting and thought provoking as he frequently is. Raises excellent questions.
Kanabia
07-04-2007, 17:11
http://www.northernsun.com/images/thumb/0786.jpg
The_pantless_hero
07-04-2007, 18:11
Good for him.

Though I think he too presupposes something: namely that the US leadership is actually seriously interested in fighting Iran, which I don't think it is.

They've got another year or so in office - that's not enough to win a war like this.
Who needs to win the war? They just need to start it. Even before the Bush administration has become blatantly obvious at wanting to continue the hostilities in Iraq, Bush made the statement that the war began on his watch but will end on another's. Bush and his administration could give a rat's ass less about consequences.

The rest of your statement are equally wishfully ignorant.
Greater Trostia
07-04-2007, 19:48
It is, however, useful to ask how we would act if Iran had invaded and occupied Canada and Mexico and was arresting U.S. government representatives there on the grounds that they were resisting the Iranian occupation (called "liberation," of course). Imagine as well that Iran was deploying massive naval forces in the Caribbean and issuing credible threats to launch a wave of attacks against a vast range of sites—nuclear and otherwise—in the United States, if the U.S. government did not immediately terminate all its nuclear energy programs (and, naturally, dismantle all its nuclear weapons). Suppose that all of this happened after Iran had overthrown the government of the U.S. and installed a vicious tyrant (as the US did to Iran in 1953), then later supported a Russian invasion of the U.S. that killed millions of people (just as the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran in 1980, killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians, a figure comparable to millions of Americans). Would we watch quietly?

I'm afraid it's very telling that no one is even addressing this analogy. And it seems most in this thread are not discussing the article, but how much Chomsky sucks/is a hypocrite/blah blah blah. One big ad-hom.

I think reason is beyond the scope of most Americans.
Heikoku
07-04-2007, 21:13
Read the part where he says the USA should resume trade with Cuba. While not specifically mentioning Castro, this would without a doubt help him. Would Chomsky want to trade with a Pinochet, for example?

Ask yourself this: Would you question someone that was in favor of trading with Pinochet but not with Castro or would you call them hypocrites as well? Minding that, yes, Pinochet was MUCH worse than Castro ever was.
Similization
07-04-2007, 21:20
I think reason is beyond the scope of most Americans.I think you're wrong. If they couldn't understand him, they wouldn't be motivated to scream, howl, fling their own fecal matter, and congratulate each other on their outrageously absurd behaviour.

No, I think they're perfectly aware the man makes some rock solid arguments. There's just nothing they want less than to hear them.
Greater Trostia
07-04-2007, 21:45
I think you're wrong. If they couldn't understand him, they wouldn't be motivated to scream, howl, fling their own fecal matter, and congratulate each other on their outrageously absurd behaviour.

No, I think they're perfectly aware the man makes some rock solid arguments. There's just nothing they want less than to hear them.

I still disagree. I think you overestimate the average, and particularly the collective, intelligence of people in general.

The attitude of hostility, of unwillingness to be reasonable, towards this man does indicate a certain level of understanding, in that they can understand key words or social cues in order to categorize him as "them" in the "us versus them" primitive consciousness. But although that much is true, I think the attitude itself stems from a lack of knowledge and intellectual capability, both of which would be required to behave in a less ape-like fashion.

Certainly, I think people everywhere are less intelligent than makes me feel proud of as a member of the species; I'm not saying Americans are inherently less intelligent. However, the behaviors are different, and for all appearances seem less intelligent than behaviors like sitting down and typing in a calm state of mind. (But as is evidenced by many people throughout the world, the latter does not in any way indicate increased intelligence. It's just a different behavior.)
Lacadaemon
07-04-2007, 21:46
No it isn't.

I think the point that has been raised is not that he has an upper level income, but rather that he invests it in the same multi-nationals that he constantly rages about.

At least that was the gist of the argument when I last heard it.
Lacadaemon
07-04-2007, 21:50
It stopped the combo McArthur/Truman, didn't it?

The time of the ideologues is over for now. They ran so hard into this wall called Iraq that no one who talks in terms of grand historical projects is going to be listened to for a while. For now people will listen to pragmatists, people who have small, attainable goals and know how to achieve them.

Look at how the Iranian hostage crisis ended. Did any of the ideologues win? No, but the pragmatists in Britain and Iran did.

The time for ideologues is never over. One set goes, and another with a different bias replaces them. Democracy runs on ideologues.

That is not to say that there aren't brief interregnums. But they never last long.

Look at the UK. Atlee, Churchill, Wilson, Thatcher, Blair. All ideologues, and they all dominated the politics of the last sixty years. Nonentities like Heath count for nothing.
Domici
07-04-2007, 22:04
Chomsky's a great one to talk about double standards. Frequently attacks the rich and privileged, even though he himself is quite wealthy. Frequently attacks Western-supported dictators, while drooling over leftist tyrants in the Third World.

Yeah. Just like all those people who attacked Jeffrey Dahmer for being a sex cannibal who drilled holes in people's heads. I'll be almost all of them ate and had sex. Many of them probably even had surgery. Such hypocrisy! It's sickening.

No, wait. Something else is making me sick. I think it's the stupid.
Similization
07-04-2007, 22:18
I still disagree. I think you overestimate the average, and particularly the collective, intelligence of people in general.I see no evidence of either.But although that much is true, I think the attitude itself stems from a lack of knowledge and intellectual capability, both of which would be required to behave in a less ape-like fashion. And I think you're making shit up to stroke your own ego. I've never seen any evidence to suggest that there's ever been a single human being who didn't adopt herd behaviour and an "Us vs. Them" mentality, whenever it seemed appealing to do so. And that alone is a good indication that people can and do fully comprehend what, in this case Chomsky, is ranting about. It's just that the mirror they're presented with doesn't provide the usual dose of narcissism, so ganging up on the mirror, rather than the image it presents, is completely rational from the perspective of the individual. Doing it may make the mirror go away, or at least make it socially acceptable not to look at it, whereas confronting ones reflection requires one to change oneself, or admit to being a sad excuse for a human being.

In an ironic twist, I think what you're doing in the post I'm quoting, revolves around the same principle. It's easier and better for your ego to assume people are stupid, than it is to acknowledge they're just as smart as you, and just as entitled and capable of forming and voicing their opinions.

Double-think is a comfortable, if utterly useless, blanket for our poor, besieged egos. Fret not, I do it all the time too.
Andaluciae
07-04-2007, 22:19
With the "problems" going on with Iran, I think its great that Noam Chomsky has just published an article on US-Iranian relationships. It's full of his usually dry sarcasm, and makes a pretty great point about double-standards. I think its worth a read.

It's only a double standard if you accept a moral equivalency thesis...which in the case of US-Iran relationships is absolutely bullshit.
Andaluciae
07-04-2007, 22:23
The right-wing dictators were also pro-capitalist and had stronger ties to the US. The lefties like Castro were ideologically allied with the USSR.

Whether Castro was worse than Pinochet or not is something worthy of debating, but my point is that Chomsky has no problem resuming regular relations with Castro. Whether he would do the same for a right-winger like Pinochet is something I'd love to know, but I don't know about Chomsky to say.

Really?

Last I checked the Soviets provided every single leftist dictator floating around out there with massive weapons stocks, funding and investment.

Hell, the USSR was pumping millions of rubles a day into Cuba, with virtually no return on the investment, never mind that little incident when they tried to sneak first-strike nuclear weapons onto the island.
Soheran
08-04-2007, 02:59
It's only a double standard if you accept a moral equivalency thesis...

So, tell me: what relevant difference is there between Iran and the US that would undermine the comparison?

Note the word "relevant."
Neu Leonstein
08-04-2007, 05:27
The rest of your statement are equally wishfully ignorant.
Why?

If Bush & Company want to attack Iran, they need to first find a reason, then publicise it, then move hundreds of thousands of troops into Iraq and Afghanistan, then actually attack and win the major battles until they take Tehran.

A bit much for the year or so he's got left.

And the other option, air strikes in Iran, is even worse because they know that the Iranian response will be a full offensive in Iraq, which is the last thing the administration and the entire Republican party can afford.

Look at the UK. Atlee, Churchill, Wilson, Thatcher, Blair. All ideologues, and they all dominated the politics of the last sixty years. Nonentities like Heath count for nothing.
But that's domestic politics. In that case the only people you have to deal with are other parties, who often have their own problems and change their views frequently.

In foreign policy, you have to deal with a much more complex set of 'adversaries' and situations. Being an ideologue when it comes to diplomacy is really quite difficult and ends in heartache more often than not - if Iraq has taught anyone anything, then it's that this message holds true even without a Soviet Union.
Lacadaemon
08-04-2007, 05:41
But that's domestic politics. In that case the only people you have to deal with are other parties, who often have their own problems and change their views frequently.

In foreign policy, you have to deal with a much more complex set of 'adversaries' and situations. Being an ideologue when it comes to diplomacy is really quite difficult and ends in heartache more often than not - if Iraq has taught anyone anything, then it's that this message holds true even without a Soviet Union.

All of them had specific foreign policy ideas. You can't get elected in the UK if you don't define the UK's place in the world. Hell, the Blairites coined the phrase "a british moment".

Rightly or wrongly the UK electorate sees the UK as a world power. (Which is why there is all the current handwringing over Zimbabwe.) And this tends to promote an ideologue stance for foreign policy as well as domestic.

I mean, it was Atlee's administration that said about nuclear weapons: "we have to have it, and it has to have the fucking union jack on it".