NationStates Jolt Archive

You see, bastards like this can post this shit on the internet, not caring if they offend Christians, but if they offend muslims, people kick up a fuss.

Well, I care about it, but frankly I don't often respond when people insult Muslims either.
I've given up with much of humanity. I suggest that you do the same.

Ilaer

You see, bastards like this can post this shit on the internet, not caring if they offend Christians, but if they offend muslims, people kick up a fuss.

It gives them a warm feeling to think they're 'enlightened'.

I wouldn't worry too much about it; Christian bashing is just fashionable at the moment among those people who have nothing better to do.

You see, bastards like this can post this shit on the internet, not caring if they offend Christians, but if they offend muslims, people kick up a fuss.Oh those poor poor Christians... :(

Well, I care about it, but frankly I don't often respond when people insult Muslims either.
I've given up with much of humanity. I suggest that you do the same.

Ilaer

I'm not going to do that, because I want as few people to go to hell as possible.

It gives them a warm feeling to think they're 'enlightened'.

I wouldn't worry too much about it; Christian bashing is just fashionable at the moment among those people who have nothing better to do.
So's Muslim bashing. Come to think of it, so's Jew bashing and "Atheist" bashing.

Maybe it's just the Abrahamic God that's so unpopular? Everyone else seems to be getting off lightly.

It gives them a warm feeling to think they're 'enlightened'.

I wouldn't worry too much about it; Christian bashing is just fashionable at the moment among those people who have nothing better to do.

I know that, it's just the government seems to be facing too much at the muslim end of things, they don't see the Christianity.

Oh those poor poor Christians... :(

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg

Oh, you're going to hell.

So's Muslim bashing. Come to think of it, so's Jew bashing and "Atheist" bashing.

Maybe it's just the Abrahamic God that's so unpopular? Everyone else seems to be getting off lightly.

Athiest bashing is different, that's religious people trying to encourage athiests to join their religion and not go to hell.

And yes, bashing muslims and jews is popular, but's less legal than bashing christians.

I don't get a 'warm feeling' from bashing Christians. I just think all religion is pointless and dangerous. In a perfect world good people would do good things and evil people would do evil. For good people to do evil you need religion. Look at the Phelps family, or the Pope preaching that condoms don't stop the spread of AIDS.

Look at Hitler, or Stalin.

Go on, try and prove to me they're Christians. That's always fun to watch. :)

I don't get a 'warm feeling' from bashing Christians. I just think all religion is pointless and dangerous. In a perfect world good people would do good things and evil people would do evil. For good people to do evil you need religion. Look at the Phelps family, or the Pope preaching that condoms don't stop the spread of AIDS.

The human DNA has more organized information than the encyclopedia Brittanica. If the entire content of the encylcopedia were to arrive on earth from space, you would no doubt think that there was intelligent life of an alien sort out there, but you explain the existance of humanity as sheer chance?

You see, bastards like this can post this shit on the internet, not caring if they offend Christians, but if they offend muslims, people kick up a fuss.

Persecution complex much? Search for some of Eve Online's threads and you'll see that there's plenty of Muslim-bashing on this forum.

Persecution complex much? Search for some of Eve Online's threads and you'll see that there's plenty of Muslim-bashing on this forum.

I have already said there is plenty of muslim bashing, it's just considered more legal to bash christians.

Oh, you're going to hell.

Honey. You might want to sit down for this. Are you seated? Good. Here's a little secret: there's no such thing like the tooth fairy, god, hell or Santa. But there are things like trolls, and you're a bad, bad one. *slaps over the nose with a rolled up news paper*

Look at Hitler, or Stalin.

Go on, try and prove to me they're Christians. That's always fun to watch. :)

Stalin wasn't a Christian.
Hitler probably was, he certainly used Christianity to gain support.
Mussolini was an atheist but the support of the Catholic church was instrumental in his rise to power.

Athiest bashing is different, that's religious people trying to encourage athiests to join their religion and not go to hell.
Firstly, there's a lot of mudslinging from the Religious side too. It's not all good intentions. Secondly, vocal Atheists are also being bashed by the middle ground, y'know; opinion polls surrounding Atheism would probably make that point if I had any figures to hand. Agnostics, the Apathetic and the Unaligned are getting somewhat fed up of what is perceived as deliberate antagonism of the Abrahamic religions.

It's just another friday to me. In fact, I might even say that the death of christ would be a reason to celebrate, not fast.

Firstly, there's a lot of mudslinging from the Religious side too. It's not all good intentions. Secondly, vocal Atheists are also being bashed by the middle ground, y'know; opinion polls surrounding Atheism would probably make that point if I had any figures to hand. Agnostics, the Apathetic and the Unaligned are getting somewhat fed up of what is perceived as deliberate antagonism of the Abrahamic religions.

Yes, there is plenty of mudslinging and violent rebuking, which many people, myself included, are guilty of, but the intentions themselves are to make people come to faith. We wouldn't be bashing athiests for no reason.

The human DNA has more organized information than the encyclopedia Brittanica. If the entire content of the encylcopedia were to arrive on earth from space, you would no doubt think that there was intelligent life of an alien sort out there, but you explain the existance of humanity as sheer chance?if it only used 4 letters, then yes.

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg
You fail at posting images. Seriously, ever heard of an IMG tag?

You fail at posting images. Seriously, ever heard of an IMG tag?

Yes, but I seriously couldn't be arsed because I am a lazy person.

The human DNA has more organized information than the encyclopedia Brittanica. If the entire content of the encylcopedia were to arrive on earth from space, you would no doubt think that there was intelligent life of an alien sort out there, but you explain the existance of humanity as sheer chance?

This argument was poor when David Hume refuted it in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion over 220 years ago and it's even sillier now in the wake of neo-Darwinian evolution.

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg

Oh, you're going to hell.Which is preferable to a heaven full of Christians.

Someone seems to have missed the point. Hitler and Stalin were evil people doing evil things. I didn't say all evil people are christians. :rolleyes:

So I won't be trying to prove they where christians.

Oh, I see.

When they're atheists, they were always evil.

When they're religious, you suddenly have an almighty faith in humanity, and they were good people turned evil.

How convenient!

You see, bastards like this can post this shit on the internet, not caring if they offend Christians, but if they offend muslims, people kick up a fuss.


Bah, they don't bother me anymore. In fact, I even took whats-his-face off my ignore list!

I have already said there is plenty of muslim bashing, it's just considered more legal to bash christians.

Are you sure that's what you mean? It's equally legal to insult both belief systems. I do agree that it's slightly more acceptable to bash Christians in the current political climate.

This argument was poor when David Hume refuted it in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion over 220 years ago and it's even sillier now in the wake of neo-Darwinian evolution.

Neo-darwinian evolution which less and less scientists are believing. Even many athiests don't even believe it. Let humanity continue for another million years or so and I'll bet we'll be just as human as we are now. For DNA to exist in anything, including single-cell organisms, is very complex.

I'm not going to do that, because I want as few people to go to hell as possible.

Not implying anything with this, but that's sort of the same attitude adopted by the Spanish Inquisition: we don't want anyone to go to Hell and, since God says that you must worship Him to get to Heaven, we must torture atheists and heretics to make them convert so that they may be saved from punishment.
Sorry.

It's their choice, not yours.
As an agnostic I would likely have been tortured by the Inquisition simply for questioning the nature and existence of God. I wouldn't like that.
However, if I susbsequently did die an agnostic and then went to Hell because of it, I would conclude that God is unfair but also that it was my own fault for not listening.

Ilaer

Are you sure that's what you mean? It's equally legal to insult both belief systems. I do agree that it's slightly more acceptable to bash Christians in the current political climate.

Yeah, I just worded it wrongly.

Neo-darwinian evolution which less and less scientists are believing. Even many athiests don't even believe it. Let humanity continue for another million years or so and I'll bet we'll be just as human as we are now. For DNA to exist in anything, including single-cell organisms, is very complex.

See, people. I told you it was a bad troll, but does anyone of you listen? No, you just keep feeding it the food courageous little US troopers like Zilam have oh, so sacrificially forsaken, negating his entire... uhm... "effort".

Not implying anything with this, but that's sort of the same attitude adopted by the Spanish Inquisition: we don't want anyone to go to Hell and, since God says that you must worship Him to get to Heaven, we must torture atheists and heretics to make them convert so that they may be saved from punishment.
Sorry.

It's their choice, not yours.
As an agnostic I would likely have been tortured by the Inquisition simply for questioning the nature and existence of God. I wouldn't like that.
However, if I susbsequently did die an agnostic and then went to Hell because of it, I would conclude that God is unfair but also that it was my own fault for not listening.

I'm not going to torture anyone. I am going to present my argument, and leave. You say if you died an agnostic, you would conclude that God is unfair but that was your own fault for not listening? How do you tie those two things together?

Neo-darwinian evolution which less and less scientists are believing. Even many athiests don't even believe it. Let humanity continue for another million years or so and I'll bet we'll be just as human as we are now. For DNA to exist in anything, including single-cell organisms, is very complex.

I'll agree on a few things.

1) Yes Neo-Darwinism isn't as favorable as it used to be.
2) Life is complex

The rest is a load of BS. :)

-snip-
You have taken your own personal experience and transplanted it onto a billion people around the world. Some may say that is a far more dangerous mindset than any religious person could manage.

I know the quote of Richard Dawkins that you started with. It never ceases to amaze me that a man of such stupidity could be made a professor. It's saddening to see that some people listen to him.

Christians don't fit into some neat little box of 'good' and 'evil'. Perhaps if you learnt more about them, and the huge variety among Christians, you wouldn't make such sweeping statements, and condemn a huge number of good people to being 'evil' simply because you don't understand faith.

I didn't state that you would torture anyone. I was merely pointing out that your line of argument was along the same lines.
I would think that punishing agnostics is unfair as they are questioning things, using the brains that God made for them and not simply going along with things on blind conviction, but also that, since God turned out to be real, I should have listened all along if I wanted to avoid going to Hell.
Hence it is my fault but still an unfair system.

Well then, surely, it's the spanish inquisition that was the unfair system, christians don't torture people these days.

Sir, you have a telegram. :)

Ooh! Ooh! I want a telegram too!

Ilaer

Which is preferable to a heaven full of Christians.

I'd like to hear you say that when you've been burning for a thousand years.

Plus Hitler was nearly an abortion - something religious people would have been against.

Religious people would also have been against his mass slaughter of other peoples, but the madness that engulfed Europe (during the German occupation of Eastern European countries, multi-racial communities that had lived peacefully for centuries suddenly turned on one another: Ukrainians slaughtered Poles in the Ukraine, Croats slaughtered Serbs, Hungarians slaughtered Serbs; Romanians, Latvians and Lithuanians quite merrily killed Jews before German soldiers had even arrived in their villages; Bulgarians slaughtered or expelled Romanians after annexing southern Dobruja; etc...) during the 1940s is without precedent.

Yes, but I seriously couldn't be arsed because I am a lazy person.

It's not really any harder then a URL tag, the difference is a better result.

It's not really any harder then a URL tag, the difference is a better result.

It's irrelevant to my point, which I think I made clear.

I'm leaving now, I have to visit people in hospital because I am a pleasant person.:rolleyes:

Well then, surely, it's the spanish inquisition that was the unfair system, christians don't torture people these days.

I am speaking of going to Hell, not of being tortured.
I don't see why those who don't believe in God or who are not sure should go to Hell even if their life has otherwise been a moral and good one.

Ilaer

I'd like to hear you say that when you've been burning for a thousand years.

??? Threatening people with eternal damnation?
Be nice!

It's not really any harder then a URL tag, the difference is a better result.

Did he use a URL tag? Jolt automatically parses text links into links.

Ilaer

I'd like to hear you say that when you've been burning for a thousand years.

You're going about this the wrong way. In a way that gives Christians a bad name. :(

Ooh! Ooh! I want a telegram too!


Ilaer

Sent sir/ma'am!

Neo-darwinian evolution which less and less scientists are believing. Even many athiests don't even believe it. Let humanity continue for another million years or so and I'll bet we'll be just as human as we are now. For DNA to exist in anything, including single-cell organisms, is very complex.

Wrong. I suggest you read this (http://home.entouch.net/dmd/moreandmore.htm) webpage. To summarise, Creationists have been claiming that more and more scientists have been rejecting non-Biblical explanations and predicting the triumph of Creationism since before the publication of the Origin of Species, starting in 1825. There are no scientific alternatives to Evolution, although there is some dispute over the details of evolution from scientists like S.J. Gould.

It's not really any harder then a URL tag, the difference is a better result.


Stop hijacking the thread please. Its not that important of an ordeal.

We celebrate too. We believe that in dying he took the blame for our sin and he came back to life the next suday, so...

what i mean is celebrate it as a good thing, as he is finally gone. And also, I doubt he came back from the dead. Seriously, how can one come back from the dead? It does not make sense.

what i mean is celebrate it as a good thing, as he is finally gone. And also, I doubt he came back from the dead. Seriously, how can one come back from the dead? It does not make sense.

How can the universe just come from nothing? It makes no sense!

Somethings we humans just fail to understand.

Besides, have you actually even read the Gospels?

The human DNA has more organized information than the encyclopedia Brittanica. If the entire content of the encylcopedia were to arrive on earth from space, you would no doubt think that there was intelligent life of an alien sort out there, but you explain the existance of humanity as sheer chance?

Chimpanzee DNA has 99% the same organized information as human DNA. You may as well ask a chimpanzee to explain the origin of it's genetic code as ask a fellow human.

Yes, to the human mind life is a miracle. We're working on it, trying to reduce this miracle to a causality. Saying "God did it" not only has no explanatory power, it's an outright insult to our DNA and all of nature. We must do what only we can do, and resist the easy solution of calling it "divine" and despairing of ever understanding it.

You have taken your own personal experience and transplanted it onto a billion people around the world. Some may say that is a far more dangerous mindset than any religious person could manage.

I know the quote of Richard Dawkins that you started with. It never ceases to amaze me that a man of such stupidity could be made a professor. It's saddening to see that some people listen to him.

Christians don't fit into some neat little box of 'good' and 'evil'. Perhaps if you learnt more about them, and the huge variety among Christians, you wouldn't make such sweeping statements, and condemn a huge number of good people to being 'evil' simply because you don't understand faith.What more relevant information does one need about Christians besides them being Christian? They're worshiping the alleged son of a fabricated god. I don't see why one would need to break Christianity down into smaller groups to judge them. And the message of Christianity is the same as in Judaism and Islam: submit or be punished. Maybe others understand a lot more about Christian faith than you do.

How can the universe just come from nothing? It makes no sense!

Somethings we humans just fail to understand.

Besides, have you actually even read the Gospels?

How can God have always existed?
Neither argument makes much sense.

Ilaer

How can God have always existed?
Neither argument makes much sense.

Ilaer

Well, he is an eternal being, so if you follow that thought, then it makes sense to you. But if you follow science alone, then you have a slight problem with the beginning of things.

BUT, thats a different topic for another time :p

I'm going to get as much school work done as I can. But first I'm going to see my therapist.

How can the universe just come from nothing? It makes no sense!

I don't believe the big bang theory either. the universe has always existed.

The human DNA has more organized information than the encyclopedia Brittanica. If the entire content of the encylcopedia were to arrive on earth from space, you would no doubt think that there was intelligent life of an alien sort out there, but you explain the existance of humanity as sheer chance?

The proposition that such a thing is not sheer chance is more absurd than the idea that it is.

I don't believe the big bang theory either. the universe has always existed.
Last I checked, Big Bang, or any other theory, doesn't state something came from nothing. That's the method of religious dismissal.

I don't believe the big bang theory either. the universe has always existed.


Your so close....

Stop hijacking the thread please. Its not that important of an ordeal.

It's not like the topic has changed, I am just replying to some-one else posts. Besides, thread don't stay on the original topic forever anyway. For example, you may remember the Atheist thread, which turned into a discussion about some sith base in warsaw, whcich does not exist.

Your so close....

To?

Well, he is an eternal being, so if you follow that thought, then it makes sense to you. But if you follow science alone, then you have a slight problem with the beginning of things.

BUT, thats a different topic for another time :p

Explain eternal being.

That argument suggests that God existed for an eternity before the Universe was created, and then two things can be said:
1. If there was an eternity before the Universe existed, how was it ever created in the first place? Consider the meaning of eternity.
Also with this argument: God is not an eternal being if there was not an eternity before the beginning of the Universe as otherwise He would be as old as the Universe and then some more, rather than eternal.
2. Why didn't He create it at an earlier time, rather than waiting for an eternity?

Ilaer

Well, he is an eternal being, so if you follow that thought, then it makes sense to you.

To you. To me, he is a fictional being, and what I believe is much more likely to be true.

It's not like the topic has changed, I am just replying to some-one else posts. Besides, thread don't stay on the original topic forever anyway. For example, you may remember the Atheist thread, which turned into a discussion about some sith base in warsaw, whcich does not exist.

Remember the NBIP thread?

Ilaer

To you. To me, he is a fictional being, and what I believe is much more likely to be true.

Explain how you can say that it's more likely to be true.
To me both sides look rather silly.

Ilaer

Remember the NBIP thread?

Ilaer

never set foot in it.

Explain eternal being.

That argument suggests that God existed for an eternity before the Universe was created, and then two things can be said:
1. If there was an eternity before the Universe existed, how was it ever created in the first place? Consider the meaning of eternity.
Also with this argument: God is not an eternal being if there was not an eternity before the beginning of the Universe as otherwise He would be as old as the Universe and then some more, rather than eternal.
2. Why didn't He create it at an earlier time, rather than waiting for an eternity?

Ilaer


Well, Im going to be honest and say that I don't have the foggiest idea about these deep questions, because the thing is, that they don't matter in the Christian perspective. What matters is helping others, living for Christ, and being a "light" to the world. Worrying about something we will never understand is just a waste of valuable time that can be used to further His kingdom.

The enormity of the universe is beyond human comprehension, if it made sense you would probably go mad with the realisation of how small you are in comparison. But to say that the universe coming from nothing making no sense and then explaining it away with a story of an God with no origins making a planet of playthings, and then conning them into worshiping him by the most bare faced hustle in history does not make sense. What also doesn't make sense is an omnipotent being feeling the need to be worshiped? Do not trust the fella. He is either a mental or a liar.

Why says that we are not mad?
I know how small I am in comparison to the Universe.
It scares me out of my wits.

Ilaer

Explain how you can say that it's more likely to be true.
To me both sides look rather silly.

Ilaer


What do you believe then?

Well, Im going to be honest and say that I don't have the foggiest idea about these deep questions, because the thing is, that they don't matter in the Christian perspective. What matters is helping others, living for Christ, and being a "light" to the world. Worrying about something we will never understand is just a waste of valuable time that can be used to further His kingdom.

Yet those who study such deep questions tend to not harm anyone, be more moral and be good people in general.

Ilaer

What more relevant information does one need about Christians besides them being Christian? They're worshiping the alleged son of a fabricated god. I don't see why one would need to break Christianity down into smaller groups to judge them. And the message of Christianity is the same as in Judaism and Islam: submit or be punished. Maybe others understand a lot more about Christian faith than you do.

I wanted this repeated, as I feel it makes my point about the dangers of blind atheism very nicely. :)

Tell me who is more dangerous; the little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers, or the young guy who thinks that there is nothing to understand about people different to him, and dismisses them all in a single sweep?

What do you believe then?

I'm not sure. That's why I'm an agnostic.

Ilaer

Explain how you can say that it's more likely to be true.
To me both sides look rather silly.

Ilaer

First tell me what do you believe.

First tell me what do you believe.

*points to post immediately above*

Ilaer

I wanted this repeated, as I feel it makes my point about the dangers of blind atheism very nicely. :)

Tell me who is more dangerous; the little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers, or the young guy who thinks that there is nothing to understand about people different to him, and dismisses them all in a single sweep?

obviously the old lady, as her pound is being used to persecute non-christians all around the world.

/sarcasm

I wanted this repeated, as I feel it makes my point about the dangers of blind atheism very nicely. :)

Tell me who is more dangerous; the little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers, or the young guy who thinks that there is nothing to understand about people different to him, and dismisses them all in a single sweep?Oh but it's not about what the little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers is doing to others, it's about what the teachings of Christianity have made her. A little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers in subjection to an imaginary god out of fear to be punished.

Oh but it's not about what the little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers is doing to others, it's about what the teachings of Christianity have made her. A little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers out of fear to be punished.

Its not about fear. Sure there are some who will be Christian to avoid punishment, but most Christians will straight up tell you, they do what they do out of love, not fear. you are gravely mistaken.

Well, Im going to be honest and say that I don't have the foggiest idea about these deep questions, because the thing is, that they don't matter in the Christian perspective. What matters is helping others, living for Christ, and being a "light" to the world. Worrying about something we will never understand is just a waste of valuable time that can be used to further His kingdom.
I appreciate the value in that, but many of us have a great sense of fear about being abused to further a cause that we find ethically flawed. I would need to know to what and whom I was committing myself before I could be satisfied that what I was doing was the right thing to do. Thus we must investigate, and if investigation is either impossible or being impeded then we must suspect foul play.

Its not about fear. Sure there are some who will be Christian to avoid punishment, but most Christians will straight up tell you, they do what they do out of love, not fear. you are gravely mistaken.I'm sure that's what you keep telling yourself.

Oh but it's not about what the little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers is doing to others, it's about what the teachings of Christianity have made her. A little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers in subjection to an imaginary god out of fear to be punished.

I am not a Christian out of fear at all. I am a Christian because I believe. As is that little old lady; if she didn't believe, she'd have nothing to fear now, would she?

See what happens when you make a sweeping generalisation? It only takes one person to prove you completely, utterly and hopelessly wrong.

I am not a Christian out of fear at all. I am a Christian because I believe. As is that little old lady; if she didn't believe, she'd have nothing to fear now, would she?

See what happens when you make a sweeping generalisation? It only takes one person to prove you completely, utterly and hopelessly wrong.Why do you believe? Why do you put ideas/ideology over experience/facts?

And btw saying "I am a Christian because I believe" is like saying "the lawn is green because the grass is".

Why do you believe? Why do you put ideas/ideology over experience/facts?
The split between 'ideas' and 'experience' that you have made here is artificial. My experience is faith; my relationship with God is nothing if not a hell of a experience.

And 'facts'? There is no greater fact than the presence of God.

And btw saying "I am a Christian because I believe" is like saying "the lawn is green because the grass is".

The lawn is green because the grass is. Are you denying that?

I'm sure that's what you keep telling yourself.

Its useless to try and talk about this subject with you. You are so closed minded and intolerant that you won't even take the word of someone that is of the faith. Its ignorance on your part, my boy.

Why do you believe? Why do you put ideas/ideology over experience/facts?

And btw saying "I am a Christian because I believe" is like saying "the lawn is green because the grass is".

And whats not to say that one hasn't had experience that deals directly with their beliefs? For example, Paul on the road to damascus. He believed after having that experience.

The split between 'ideas' and 'experience' that you have made here is artificial. My experience is faith; my relationship with God is nothing if not a hell of a experience.Faith is no experience. Faith is a mindset. And what are the details of your hell of experience?

And 'facts'? There is no greater fact than the presence of God. Religious drooling.

The lawn is green because the grass is. Are you denying that?No. But does that give any additional information beyond the obvious? Saying "I am Christian because I believe" holds no information about the cause of your belief/Christian-being.

I don't get a 'warm feeling' from bashing Christians. I just think all religion is pointless and dangerous. In a perfect world good people would do good things and evil people would do evil. For good people to do evil you need religion. Look at the Phelps family, or the Pope preaching that condoms don't stop the spread of AIDS.

Of course. I heard that it was Christianity what wiped out the millions of Russians in the Stalinist purges.

And of course it was Islam that caused AIDs in the first place.

But boy, you really have to watch out for those Buddhists, blowing shit up all over the world.

Yes, there is plenty of mudslinging and violent rebuking, which many people, myself included, are guilty of, but the intentions themselves are to make people come to faith. We wouldn't be bashing athiests for no reason.

How 'bout just leave them alone and let them live their lives in peace?

You know, the way that our little band of atheists should have, not coming into this thread to hijack and bitch about how Christianity doesn't exist and be pricks about it: the topic is whether anyone is doing anything special related to the holiday from Friday to Sunday.

So: post here about the worth of religiosity vs. atheism folks -- knock yourselves out.

Faith is no experience. Faith is a mindset. And what are the details of your hell of experience?
Your faith in atheism is certainly a mindset, and is quite sad to witness. You deny the existence of God but then hold yourself up as having all the answers to life, the universe and everything; perhaps you see God as your rival?

Religious drooling.
It's quite amusing that you would condemn me for being a Christian, but then think that calling me religious would somehow offend me.

No. But does that give any additional information beyond the obvious? Saying "I am Christian because I believe" holds no information about the cause of your belief/Christian-being.
Oh, so an answer becomes less true because it is obvious?

And btw saying "I am a Christian because I believe" is like saying "the lawn is green because the grass is".

QFT.

Honey. You might want to sit down for this. Are you seated? Good. Here's a little secret: there's no such thing like the tooth fairy, god, hell or Santa. But there are things like trolls, and you're a bad, bad one. *slaps over the nose with a rolled up news paper*

Quoted for truth. :)

The presence of God is not fact. God will not prove his existence because proof denies faith and without faith he is nothing. Then someone points out the Babel fish (you pop it in your ear and can understand any language throughout the universe), and the fact that this little fish is proof of God's existence as something so usefull could not have come around otherwise.

'OH yeah' says God and dissapears in a little puff os smoke.

Hitchhiker's Guide FTW!:D

Yes, there is plenty of mudslinging and violent rebuking, which many people, myself included, are guilty of, but the intentions themselves are to make people come to faith. We wouldn't be bashing athiests for no reason.

Can't you just, you know, leave us the fuck alone?

my brothers and sisters in Christ, have you not listened? Christ says that if someone were to slap us on the check to turn and give them the other one as well? Where is the forgiveness that our lord and savior talked about. When you present the gospel just present it. Dont try to force it down other people's throats. That only pushes them farther away. When they bash you dont do it back. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. It also makes us no better then them. Give them the good news in love. Bless them for bashing you. Love them. Pray for them. Dont give up hope. You find your hope in our lord and savior. If you give up then who is left to do your job? Today in this world there are only 35% of bible beleiving adults. Look at how bad the world is today because of the fact. Statistics show that out of this current generation only 4% will stand firmly for Jesus. This is because we as Christians havent been doing our job. Dont just be religous only on Christian holidays, do it everyday. Be a living breathing testamony for Christ. To learn more about witnessing and living Christ loud Check out www.battlecry.org. I am known on there as lucky302. Reach out in love and not hate. I pray.

my brothers and sisters in Christ, have you not listened? Christ says that if someone were to slap us on the check to turn and give them the other one as well? Where is the forgiveness that our lord and savior talked about. When you present the gospel just present it. Dont try to force it down other people's throats. That only pushes them farther away. When they bash you dont do it back. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. It also makes us no better then them. Give them the good news in love. Bless them for bashing you. Love them. Pray for them. Dont give up hope. You find your hope in our lord and savior. If you give up then who is left to do your job? Today in this world there are only 35% of bible beleiving adults. Look at how bad the world is today because of the fact. Statistics show that out of this current generation only 4% will stand firmly for Jesus. This is because we as Christians havent been doing our job. Dont just be religous only on Christian holidays, do it everyday. Be a living breathing testamony for Christ. To learn more about witnessing and living Christ loud Check out www.battlecry.org. I am known on there as lucky302. Reach out in love and not hate. I pray.

http://www.djbuddha.org/rants/archives/bunny-pancake.jpg
now where did I put the pepper one...

It's irrelevant to my point, which I think I made clear.

I'm leaving now, I have to visit people in hospital because I am a pleasant person.:rolleyes:

I'd like to hear you say that when you've been burning for a thousand years.

Oh so very pleasant.

Are you for real? An eye for an eye is a bible quoute(Exodus 21:23–27). It was Ghandi criticised it - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the whole world would soon be blind and toothless."

I think you'll find Jesus criticised that particular passage a long time before Gandhi did.

Are you for real? An eye for an eye is a bible quoute(Exodus 21:23–27). It was Ghandi criticised it - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and the whole world would soon be blind and toothless."

The eye for an eye bit is in the OT. Jesus, who features more towards the end of the Bible was very keen on forgivness and tolerance.

http://www.djbuddha.org/rants/archives/bunny-pancake.jpg
now where did I put the pepper one...

Battlecry is a theocratic, quasi-militaristic youth organisation in the US. Nice bunny by the way. :)

Battlecry is a theocratic, quasi-militaristic youth organisation in the US. Nice bunny by the way. :)

actually, what I mean is that I have no idea they are saying, as the post is long and badly structured, a combination that makes my eyes bleed.

I wanted this repeated, as I feel it makes my point about the dangers of blind atheism very nicely. :)

Tell me who is more dangerous; the little old lady putting a pound in the collection plate and quietly saying her prayers, or the young guy who thinks that there is nothing to understand about people different to him, and dismisses them all in a single sweep?

Actually your example demonstrates the danger of dogmatism. Sure, there are a few dogmatic atheists like UB, but as a rule dogmatism is far more common amongst religious organisations, especially those with an emphasis on blind faith.

actually, what I mean is that I have no idea they are saying, as the post is long and badly structured, a combination that makes my eyes bleed.

*nods* Agreed.

Forgiveness and tolerance can be practised without religion. Christianity, if you beleive the 'good' book is a hustle. The point of religion is control. The literate powers that where could control the plebs through religion, ensuring their power - e.g - the Medicci Family.

I was meerly pointing out that Christians tend not to subscribe to the Old Testiment 100%.

Actually your example demonstrates the danger of dogmatism. Sure, there are a few dogmatic atheists like UB, but as a rule dogmatism is far more common amongst religious organisations, especially those with an emphasis on blind faith.

You complain about dogmatism, and then start a statement with 'as a rule...'?

You complain about dogmatism, and then start a statement with 'as a rule...'?

Dogmatic: "All dogmatic people are religious"

Non-Dogmatic: "Dogmatism tends to be more common in religious circles"

Commenting on a trend does not make me dogmatic, any more than the statement "as a rule, leftist views are more common among the young" would be dogmatic.

Besides, how many atheists do you see declaring their belief in the inerrancy of Dawkins' The God Delusion or proclaiming Carl Sagan's infallibility?

You complain about dogmatism, and then start a statement with 'as a rule...'?

not nearly as clever as you think it is.

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg

Oh, you're going to hell.

Assuming you're not a troll, which you most likely are, but I'll go ahead and assume otherwise just for the sake of giving me the opportunity to post:

Only god can tell who will go to hell. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Let him without sin cast the first stone. Blah blah blah, etc, etc - you get the point.

not nearly as clever as you think it is.

Had I started my post with the words "now this is really clever", then your response would be relevant. As it is, it's a non-statement.

Assuming you're not a troll, which you most likely are, but I'll go ahead and assume otherwise just for the sake of giving me the opportunity to post:

Only god can tell who will go to hell. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Let him without sin cast the first stone. Blah blah blah, etc, etc - you get the point.

He's a troll. I can tell.

Athiest bashing is different, that's religious people trying to encourage athiests to join their religion and not go to hell.
But christian bashing by atheists is just people trying to save them from wasting their lives praying to and obeying a non-existant deity. So it is the same thing.


Also, I see very little religion bashing that's actually started out of the blue by atheists/agnostics. Usually a christian starts in on the bashing and then gets to acting all persecuted when the favour is returned.

Had I started my post with the words "now this is really clever", then your response would be relevant. As it is, it's a non-statement.

so you admit then it was a pretty stupid and pointless comment?

Why say it?

so you admit then it was a pretty stupid and pointless comment?

Why say it?

Congratulations! You have reached 'takes one to know one' debating levels. Next week, we'll move on to 'I know you are, but what am I?'

Also, I see very little religion bashing that's actually started out of the blue by atheists/agnostics. Usually a christian starts in on the bashing and then gets to acting all persecuted when the favour is returned.

See, that's the thing the religious right doesn't get. They talk about being "persecuted" by the atheist/agnostics. Frankly speaking, most atheists/agnostics aren't interested in persecuting, they aren't interested in tearing down your beliefs. They really by and large don't CARE what you believe. They just want to be left the fuck alone.

Also, I see very little religion bashing that's actually started out of the blue by atheists/agnostics. Usually a christian starts in on the bashing and then gets to acting all persecuted when the favour is returned.

Thats a common misconception.

See, that's the thing the religious right doesn't get. They talk about being "persecuted" by the atheist/agnostics. Frankly speaking, most atheists/agnostics aren't interested in persecuting, they aren't interested in tearing down your beliefs. They really by and large don't CARE what you believe. They just want to be left the fuck alone.

This whole thread started from atheists hijacking a thread on plans for Good Friday. This is wanting to be left alone?

See, that's the thing the religious right doesn't get. They talk about being "persecuted" by the atheist/agnostics. Frankly speaking, most atheists/agnostics aren't interested in persecuting, they aren't interested in tearing down your beliefs. They really by and large don't CARE what you believe. They just want to be left the fuck alone.

So you speak for all atheists do you?

Neo-darwinian evolution which less and less scientists are believing.
Ever heard of the Steve's list?

Just because the Discovery Institute tells you that fewer scientists believe in evolution doesn't make it true.

For DNA to exist in anything, including single-cell organisms, is very complex.
Well then, isn't it fortunate that the base pairs are found in meteorites and dust clouds out in space? Oh, right, the Discovery Institute doesn't like it when you know that either, does it?

Thats a common misconception.
No, it's an observation from someone who doesn't really care anymore.

Well, I sort of care... I care when people make blatant false statements either out of ignorance or on purpose. But I have long ago stopped caring whether or not there is a god.

So you speak for all atheists do you?

Hi, have we met? (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:most&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)

This whole thread started from atheists hijacking a thread on plans for Good Friday. This is wanting to be left alone?

Thank you, you proved my point. Which group started the discussion on religion?

Thank you, you proved my point. Which group started the discussion on religion?

:D

So you just want to be left alone, and don't care about what we believe, but should we, heaven forbid! talk about what we believe, then this is a reason to tell us how wrong we are?

Well then, isn't it fortunate that the base pairs are found in meteorites and dust clouds out in space? Oh, right, the Discovery Institute doesn't like it when you know that either, does it?

I'm not an ID'st in the discovery institute sense, but I must stress that a vague double helix shape formed by dust in space =/= DNA or any way near as complex.

Hi, have we met? (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:most&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)

Even to assert that you speak for most Atheists needs to be backed up when you are going into such details about how they act.

Thank you, you proved my point. Which group started the discussion on religion?Zilam.

:D

So you just want to be left alone, and don't care about what we believe, but should we, heaven forbid! talk about what we believe, then this is a reason to tell us how wrong we are?

I'll ask again, who made their religious beliefs at issue? Who started the topic? You don't get it both ways. You can't push your religious beliefs into the public sphere and not expect those beliefs to be challenged. You dont get to talk about your beliefs then scream that youre being oppressed when someone disagrees with you.

Zilam.

Thankyou mr thought police for enlightening us that talking about good friday is wrong. :rolleyes:

I'm not an ID'st in the discovery institute sense, but I must stress that a vague double helix shape formed by dust in space =/= DNA or any way near as complex.

failed. Hard.

I'll ask again, who made their religious beliefs at issue? Who started the topic? You don't get it both ways. You can't push your religious beliefs into the public sphere and not expect those beliefs to be challenged. You dont get to talk about your beliefs then scream that youre being oppressed when someone disagrees with you.

So simply asking what one is doing for Good friday is simply forcing religious beliefs down ones throat is it?

I just had a lengthy, um, chat with two Mormons. This is a good Friday! :D

How can the universe just come from nothing? It makes no sense!
Vacuum flucutuations? Earlier generations of universes? et c There are many possible explanations for the beginning of the universe.

Somethings we humans just fail to understand.
But there are some things (such as the beginnings of life/the universe) which are possible to understand someday with empirical evidence and scientific research. You can't do empirical research into miracles or events for which there is no evidence that they ever occured.

Besides, have you actually even read the Gospels?
I have.

I'm not an ID'st in the discovery institute sense, but I must stress that a vague double helix shape formed by dust in space =/= DNA or any way near as complex.
Well, yes, but it is a big step along the way. Give it several billion years of evolution et voila!

Congratulations! You have reached 'takes one to know one' debating levels. Next week, we'll move on to 'I know you are, but what am I?'

Are you going to defend your claim (that I'm dogmatic) or can I take it that you're conceding that point?

Athiest bashing is different, that's religious people trying to encourage athiests to join their religion and not go to hell.

And it's their business...how?

It's still trying to push their beliefs on others.

Well, yes, but it is a big step along the way. Give it several billion years of evolution et voila!

No dakini, you misunderstand his point. He wasn't talking about pre DNA organic materials FOUND in space.

He was talking about how some nebula themselves sorta LOOK like a DNA helix the way they're formed.

How the hell he got that from what you were saying I have no idea.

So simply asking what one is doing for Good friday is simply forcing religious beliefs down ones throat is it?

You're not too good at the reading comprehension thing huh? I didn't say pushed down someone's throat, I said pushed into the public sphere.

No dakini, you misunderstand his point. He wasn't talking about pre DNA organic materials FOUND in space.

He was talking about how some nebula themselves sorta LOOK like a DNA helix the way they're formed.

How the hell he got that from what you were saying I have no idea.

Well since there was a whole massive thread on it earlier, I assumed that this was what they were talking about.

You're not too good at the reading comprehension thing huh? I didn't say pushed down someone's throat, I said pushed into the public sphere.

But your whole tone and previous tones suggest or imply that Zilam has been pushing his beliefs on to you. If he wasn't, then there is no justification at all to just simply attack his beliefs.

But your whole tone and previous tones suggest or imply that Zilam has been pushing his beliefs on to you. If he wasn't, then there is no justification at all to just simply attack his beliefs.

when did I ever say that? In the slightest? I said most atheists/agnostics don't make a point of pushing their beliefs on others. He said this thread was created as a split hijack from one discussing good friday.

Which makes my point, the discussion on religion was STARTED by the religious.

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/gallery/silly/big_cup_of_STFU.jpg

Oh, you're going to hell.

Hell is for those who believe in it. It has a special place for those who believe in it because they think they'll go there if they don't.

my brothers and sisters in Christ, have you not listened? Christ says that if someone were to slap us on the check to turn and give them the other one as well? Where is the forgiveness that our lord and savior talked about.
Actually, if you read that in the social context of the time you'd realize that turning your cheek is a form of non-violent resistance. Basically, if anyone, even a roman higher up slapped anyone else with his left hand, they would be severely punished. Presenting your other cheek leaves them with two options, either cease the slapping or slap with the left hand (I suppose one could do something more drastic to get the other cheek out, but it does make their job that much more difficult).
At any rate, that verse isn't about forgiveness.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
That was Gandhi, not Jesus.
The Bible says "An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth."

Which makes my point, the discussion on religion was STARTED by the religious.

It wasn't a discussion on religion, merely asking what someone is doing for good friday. I don't see how that justifies attacking his beliefs, when he was not trying to convince anyone to believe in them.

I'll ask again, who made their religious beliefs at issue? Who started the topic? You don't get it both ways. You can't push your religious beliefs into the public sphere and not expect those beliefs to be challenged. You dont get to talk about your beliefs then scream that youre being oppressed when someone disagrees with you.

Sorry, but you're the one trying to have it both ways. You say you don't care what we believe, nor are you interested in tearing down our beliefs, but then feel the need to 'challenge' our beliefs in a thread about what we're doing for Good Friday?

If you don't care, why do you need to challenge people who aren't even talking to you?

Well since there was a whole massive thread on it earlier, I assumed that this was what they were talking about.

No, not even close. She's talking about Stardust, a spacecraft that gathered cosmic dust from the tail end of a comet (a comet that has never touched or originated from earth).

When the sample was analyzed it was found to contain base organic compounds, the same compounds that form the amino acids that were believed to form the first protein.

Her point was that if the fundamental building blocks of life can be found in outer fucking space how inconceivable is it that those same compounds could, over the course of about 500 MILLION years, come together to form a protein?

But your whole tone and previous tones suggest or imply that Zilam has been pushing his beliefs on to you. If he wasn't, then there is no justification at all to just simply attack his beliefs.that was no attack, it was a rescue attempt.

No dakini, you misunderstand his point. He wasn't talking about pre DNA organic materials FOUND in space.

He was talking about how some nebula themselves sorta LOOK like a DNA helix the way they're formed.

How the hell he got that from what you were saying I have no idea.
Yeah, I didn't catch that he was referring to nebulous gasses making helix shapes. It's simply not a conclusion I would assume someone would come to.

Her point was that if the fundamental building blocks of life can be found in outer fucking space how inconceivable is it that those same compounds could, over the course of about 500 MILLION years, come together to form a protein?

Well the structures of DNA are so very complex, more complex then thousands and thousands of books of code, it may take a rediculously long time assuming the compounds manage to stay together that long. But this is completely irellevant.

that was no attack, it was a rescue attempt.

In what way?

Sorry, but you're the one trying to have it both ways. You say you don't care what we believe, nor are you interested in tearing down our beliefs, but then feel the need to 'challenge' our beliefs in a thread about what we're doing for Good Friday?

um, you do realize you are on a debate board, right?

No, not even close. She's talking about Stardust, a spacecraft that gathered cosmic dust from the tail end of a comet (a comet that has never touched or originated from earth).

When the sample was analyzed it was found to contain base organic compounds, the same compounds that form the amino acids that were believed to form the first protein.

Her point was that if the fundamental building blocks of life can be found in outer fucking space how inconceivable is it that those same compounds could, over the course of about 500 MILLION years, come together to form a protein?
Well, it's not just the comet tail samplings. It can also be seen in emission and absorption lines in distant stars and in meteorites that have landed on earth which have a different handed-ness than the handed-ness of molecules used by organisms on this planet, which implies extraterrestrial origins.

Yeah, I didn't catch that he was referring to nebulous gasses making helix shapes. It's simply not a conclusion I would assume someone would come to.However, there are people who do. And once you recognize that you no longer wonder why this planet is on the edge of destruction.

However, there are people who do. And once you recognize that you no longer wonder why this planet is on the edge of destruction.

Ff someone talks about dust clouds and dna, and there was a whole huge thread about dust clouds forming dna shapes, it really isn't that fucking bad to assume that you were reffering to what that thread was talking about. Seriously guys, get the fuck over it.

um, you do realize you are on a debate board, right?

Indeed. So come on, put us out of our misery, and clarify what exactly you meant when you said:

See, that's the thing the religious right doesn't get. They talk about being "persecuted" by the atheist/agnostics. Frankly speaking, most atheists/agnostics aren't interested in persecuting, they aren't interested in tearing down your beliefs. They really by and large don't CARE what you believe. They just want to be left the fuck alone.

Well the structures of DNA are so very complex, more complex then thousands and thousands of books of code, it may take a rediculously long time assuming the compounds manage to stay together that long.

and 500 million years is....what, a brief nap?

and 500 million years is....what, a brief nap?

To some scientists, it is when you want DNA to form.

Well the structures of DNA are so very complex, more complex then thousands and thousands of books of code, it may take a rediculously long time assuming the compounds manage to stay together that long. But this is completely irellevant.
The structure of RNA is simpler. The structure of DNA in primitive bacteria is relatively simple as well.

And it is not completely irrelevant. At some point someone said that evolution and abiogenesis were impossible (well, the abiogenesis part was implied as few (if any) intelligent design proponents distinguish between the two) and I was merely pointing out that it is quite possible.

The proposition that such a thing is not sheer chance is more absurd than the idea that it is.


Last I checked, Big Bang, or any other theory, doesn't state something came from nothing. That's the method of religious dismissal.

Religion or science something HAD to come from nothing, if it didn't then where did something come from in the first place?

No, not even close. She's talking about Stardust, a spacecraft that gathered cosmic dust from the tail end of a comet (a comet that has never touched or originated from earth).

When the sample was analyzed it was found to contain base organic compounds, the same compounds that form the amino acids that were believed to form the first protein.

Her point was that if the fundamental building blocks of life can be found in outer fucking space how inconceivable is it that those same compounds could, over the course of about 500 MILLION years, come together to form a protein?but it doesn't take 500 million years to come together to form a protein at all. amino acids are basically everywhere in space. and for them to just chain up doesn't take much.

Neo-darwinian evolution which less and less scientists are believing. Even many athiests don't even believe it. Let humanity continue for another million years or so and I'll bet we'll be just as human as we are now. For DNA to exist in anything, including single-cell organisms, is very complex.

Well, Lebo, that statement proves one thing - you have absolutely no clue at all, whatsoever, about scientific methodology, or about science in general. First of all, science is not a belief system; scientists do not belive in evolution (evolutionary biology - Theory of Evolution) any more than they believe in gravity (Newtonian Machanics - General Relativity). Both are accepted by scientists as facts based of the overwhelming volumes (literally mountians) of data, observations, and experiments that support both theories. (You might want to start by understanding what the real definition of 'Scientific Theory' is) Could either theory (or any scientific theory) be wrong? Sure, that is what makes it science! Secondly, your statement that '...less and less scientists are believing' (in 'Neo-Darwinian evolution', whatever the hell that is - it is, properly, Evolutionary Biology and the Theory of Evolution, the theory, by the way, is an explanation of the facts, like all scienific theories are) is patently false! I challenge you to start naming some scientists (in the respected fields, please) who are abandoning the Theory of Evolution. Have you been spending time at the Discovery Institute website? ('It is just too complex! It must have been designed') The Theory of Evolution is strong and well! It is not becoming less favorable; in fact, it becomes more favorable everyday as more and more and more evidence is discovered that gives it more and more and more credibility. It is by far the most tested and established theory in the scientific literature. If there is another scientific theory to compete with it, than name it (IDiots excluded - I said scientific theory). And lastly, about the religious bashing - who cares, other than the fact that you find it insulting. It is becoming tiresome to see the 'Hitler' thing - he professed to being a 'Christian' and doing God's work (Ok, so he professed). If you really would like some insight on 'bashing,' I would suggest that you study that period of history known as 'The Inquisition' - a grand enlightenment on 'Christian Humanity.' Try the Crusades, as well. Frankly, Christianity has been responsible for more bloodshed (in the name of the Christian God) than a multitude of other causes combined. Bash all you want - you have all been doing it for millenia; it is nothing new. Gay and lesbian bashing is insulting, too, I suppose (especially if you are gay or lesbian) - when are you going to complain about that? I guess as a 'good' Christian, though, that type of bashing is ok? Feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that - I do not mean to necessarily pass judgment on you :). At any rate, as a 'born again' Apathetic Agnostic ( and lesbian :) who has been 'bashed' - and probably more coming now - oh, such as life), I really do not care how much 'bashing' there is. But, at least get the science right! That I do care about. So, tell me I am '...going to Hell.' Go ahead; I can take it.

The structure of RNA is simpler. The structure of DNA in primitive bacteria is relatively simple as well.

And it is not completely irrelevant. At some point someone said that evolution and abiogenesis were impossible (well, the abiogenesis part was implied as few (if any) intelligent design proponents distinguish between the two) and I was merely pointing out that it is quite possible.

It's simple yes, but the chances of it forming naturally increases expotentially as more and more of these compounds come together. It's like having a 20 digit number, it's a simple number but picking it at random would be unlikely even in 500 million years.

I also heard a theory in school of how repeated lightning strikes at certain intervals could have affected the formation of the foundation of the origin of life.

Indeed. So come on, put us out of our misery, and clarify what exactly you meant when you said:

I meant exactly what I said. Most atheists/agnostics don't care what you believe, and really don't give a fuck what you believe, and would rather not be told.

If you want to use a debate board as a microchosim for daily life go ahead, you'll be the one being absurd, not me.

Ff someone talks about dust clouds and dna, and there was a whole huge thread about dust clouds forming dna shapes, it really isn't that fucking bad to assume that you were reffering to what that thread was talking about. Seriously guys, get the fuck over it.Not all people read all threads.

but it doesn't take 500 million years to come together to form a protein at all. amino acids are basically everywhere in space. and for them to just chain up doesn't take much.

But i'm not talking about a potential protein. But for them to chain up takes a lot more then you think.

Ff someone talks about dust clouds and dna, and there was a whole huge thread about dust clouds forming dna shapes, it really isn't that fucking bad to assume that you were reffering to what that thread was talking about.

Only if you're functionally illiterate. If you had bothered ot read, even if you didn't know what she was refering to, it would be obvious she wasn't refering to that.

It's simple yes, but the chances of it forming naturally increases expotentially as more and more of these compounds come together. It's like having a 20 digit number, it's a simple number but picking it at random would be unlikely even in 500 million years.

complex life didn't just "form naturally" all at once. Really, what do you think happened? Fully grown cats bursting out of the primordial ooze?

Yeah me randomly guessing a 20 digit number will take a long time, if I have to guess that number without aid. However if you tell me higher, or lower on each guess, I can do it a whole hell of a lot faster. Probably in a few hours.

The odds of complex life forming from nothing are incredibly small. Thankfully, nobody claims that happened.

hasn;t this topic been done to death. Those who believe will believe and will not sway, those who do not believe will not believe and will rarely sway. Everyone has their belief or lack their of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9W6fZg5xg

But i'm not talking about a potential protein. But for them to chain up takes a lot more then you think.Yes, sugar.

complex life didn't just "form naturally" all at once. Really, what do you think happened? Fully grown cats bursting out of the primordial ooze?

Yeah me randomly guessing a 20 digit number will take a long time, if I have to guess that number without aid. However if you tell me higher, or lower on each guess, I can do it a whole hell of a lot faster. Probably in a few hours.

The odds of complex life forming from nothing are incredibly small. Thankfully, nobody claims that happened.

Thats why I said it increases expotentially as each proteen pairs with another proteen. I didn't say they just all pair up into DNA at once.

However, there are people who do. And once you recognize that you no longer wonder why this planet is on the edge of destruction.
Oh, I don't wonder why the planet is on the edge of desctruction. As a so-called intelligent species, we're totally stupid, greedy, inconsiderate and lack foresight.
This is not to say that every individual is this way, but the people with power are for the most part.

Yes, sugar.

Great, you've really convinced me now. :rolleyes:

But i'm not talking about a potential protein. But for them to chain up takes a lot more then you think.

No it doesn't. Amino acids chain up actually quite easily to form fairly simple proteins.

Those simple proteins form up to form more complex proteins as well.

In labs scientists, mimicing primordeal conditions, managed to develop cell like membrains, using nothing but acids and simple proteins.

No it doesn't. Amino acids chain up actually quite easily to form fairly simple proteins.

Those simple proteins form up to form more complex proteins as well.

In labs scientists, mimicing primordeal conditions, managed to develop cell like membrains, using nothing but acids and simple proteins.

But it needed the intense intelligence of the scientists to do that. Also, cell like membrains is not the same as DNA.

Ff someone talks about dust clouds and dna, and there was a whole huge thread about dust clouds forming dna shapes, it really isn't that fucking bad to assume that you were reffering to what that thread was talking about. Seriously guys, get the fuck over it.
Chances are it wasn't dust clouds that someone was talking about. Dust clouds tend to absorb light. It was probably nebulae.

That's because the "believers" have always cared more about their afterlife and their position in their god's face than about this world. Most of this species just uses their intelligence for the wrong ends.

I like the way that people can be so arrogant as to assume that they know what all religious people are thinking.

Oh, I don't wonder why the planet is on the edge of desctruction. As a so-called intelligent species, we're totally stupid, greedy, inconsiderate and lack foresight. That's because the "believers" have always cared more about their afterlife and their position in their god's face than about this world. Most of this species just uses their intelligence for the wrong ends.

In labs scientists, mimicing primordeal conditions, managed to develop cell like membrains, using nothing but acids and simple proteins.
Actually molecules for bilipid membranes are also possibly from outerspace. They've found them (once again) in meteorites.

Thats why I said it increases expotentially as each proteen pairs with another proteen. I didn't say they just all pair up into DNA at once.

oh but we're talking 500 million years for the FIRST life. That life, simple proteins, really wasn't much. We're talking at least another billion or so years til the first true unicellular organisms came about, another billion or so on top of that for the first multicelled

That's because the "believers" have always cared more about their afterlife and their position in their god's face than about this world. Most of this species just uses their intelligence for the wrong ends.
I wouldn't blame religion for this. I think that a lot of people would be equally stupid and shortsighted without it as well.

oh but we're talking 500 million years for the FIRST life. That life, simple proteins, really wasn't much. We're talking at least another billion or so years til the first true unicellular organisms came about, another billion or so on top of that for the first multicelled

But it's very difficult to keep proteins together in space for billions of years.

You're using the word "DNA" like it means osmething important. DNA is one thing, a grouping of proteins. That's it, that's all it is. A grouping of proteins. So is a cell membrain.

A much more complex grouping of proteins.

But it needed the intense intelligence of the scientists to do that.

NOt really. All that was required of their intelligence of scientists is to create an enviornment that replicated various conditions. The proteins sorta did the work themselves at that point.

They didn't take tiny little tweezers and put them together, they mimiced conditions, and watched what happened.


Also, cell like membrains is not the same as DNA.

You're using the word "DNA" like it means osmething important. DNA is one thing, a grouping of proteins. That's it, that's all it is. A grouping of proteins. So is a cell membrain.

Actually molecules for bilipid membranes are also possibly from outerspace. They've found them (once again) in meteorites.All building blocks of life are found in space. And after that in all of earths possible circumstances it only takes one single cell to form out of these building blocks (not at once but in steps of course) and here we go.

There is only one thing in all of biology that I have no explanation for yet.

But it's very difficult to keep proteins together in space for billions of years.

and someone said this is what was going on...when, exactly?

and someone said this is what was going on...when, exactly?

You said it would take billions of years to form life.

But it needed the intense intelligence of the scientists to do that. Also, cell like membrains is not the same as DNA.
Umm... it doesn't require the intelligence of scientists. Well, it would nowadays. New life formed in the wild now would have to compete with lifeforms that have been around for billions of years, so it requires somewhat sterile laboratory conditions. But other than that, we're talking about scientists taking the primordial sea and letting it do its thing with conditions that simulate those around the first emergence of life. It's artificially natural, if you will.

United Beleriand, you are constantly asserting things about what religious people apparently think according to you, but when I refute this you never respond. So please respond to some of my previous posts that you have left un-replied.

I wouldn't blame religion for this. I think that a lot of people would be equally stupid and shortsighted without it as well.but religion and religious institutions keep people in an ignorant state. without it maybe more people had an urge to learn.

But it's very difficult to keep proteins together in space for billions of years.
We're not talking about keeping them together in space. We're talking about taking the molecules (you know what those are, right?) which make up the protein (the molecules themselves are tightly bound and do keep together well in space) and putting these molecules into the nice warm baths of Earth's early oceans. There they can do whatever.

You said it would take billions of years to form life.

No I said it took about 500 million years to form life. A billion or so years after that to form cellular organisms.

That not withstanding, who ever said the process of abiogenesis and evolution occured in space?

but religion and religious institutions keep people in an ignorant state. without it maybe more people had an urge to learn.
Maybe. I think it's more likely that most people would be content by not thinking about it.

We're not talking about keeping them together in space. We're talking about taking the molecules (you know what those are, right?) which make up the protein (the molecules themselves are tightly bound and do keep together well in space) and putting these molecules into the nice warm baths of Earth's early oceans. There they can do whatever.exactly. and then it only takes one chance in a billion years or so and the avalanche of life is triggered.

We're not talking about keeping them together in space. We're talking about taking the molecules which make up the protein (the molecules themselves are tightly bound and do keep together well in space) and putting these molecules into the nice warm baths of Earth's early oceans. There they can do whatever.

I didn't just mean in space though, I meant anywhere.

(you know what those are, right?)

Oh and please drop the patronising tone.

but religion and religious institutions keep people in an ignorant state. without it maybe more people had an urge to learn.

Please proove this.

Dakini, in depth science isn't a strong suit of mine (as you can probably tell). But, I have a few articles that I think you should read and I would like to see what your thoughts are on those:

*finds articles*

I didn't just mean in space though, I meant anywhere. But we are talking about life on earth. Not anywhere.

Oh and please drop the patronising tone.Funny that you should ask thus.

THe idea that life gets "exponentionally" harder is silly. Is building the 10th floor of a 10 story building 100 times harder than building the first? Of course not. It's a building process, quite linear rather, not exponential in the slightest.

As for the "it would take forever to guess a 20 digit number" bit, yes, a very long time. But again, life is not a one step process, it's steps along the way. To guess a 20 digit number in a shot would take a long time, but if you tell me if my guess is too high, or too low, at one guess a minute, I could could have the answer in at most a little over an hour.

That's how it works with evolution of life. It's not a one shot process. It's a slow process that builds on itself over time. To guess a 20 digit number in one shot is akin to a cat being formed in one shot. But it doesn't happen that way. 70 guesses is all i'd need. One step at a time.

I didn't just mean in space though, I meant anywhere.
No, you clearly said that proteins wouldn't stay together in space, which is true. They aren't bound together strongly enough to keep from being broken apart by cosmic rays. (Well, I don't know about all protein chains, maybe some are resilliant enough to survive that...)
I was saying that abiogenesis happened when the DNA base pairs and various proteins were already immersed in the nice, comforting, warm oceans of the Earth, where they have a nice, friendly environment for their interactions.

Oh and please drop the patronising tone.
What? I'm honestly not sure if you know what a molecule is.

THe idea that life gets "exponentionally" harder is silly. Is building the 10th floor of a 10 story building 100 times harder than building the first? Of course not. It's a building process, quite linear rather, not exponential in the slightest.


Again, building a building is not random, it is done on purpose. You would never expect to see a 7 story building occur naturally. DNA is also random.


As for the "it would take forever to guess a 20 digit number" bit, yes, a very long time. But again, life is not a one step process, it's steps along the way. To guess a 20 digit number in a shot would take a long time, but if you tell me if my guess is too high, or too low, at one guess a minute, I could could have the answer in at most a little over an hour.


I agree that it doesn't occur at once of course, but there is no force guiding proteins and giving it hints along the way when it comes to DNA. Unless you believe in God.

(Well, I don't know about all protein chains, maybe some are resilliant enough to survive that...)

Not really. I mean yeah sure if you constructed a mega protein to be especially resiliant to survive what is basically a 24/7 xray bath maybe. But nothing would survive long enough to make it that far.

Even if somehow you could survive the cold, unequal pressure and lack of oxygen in space, you'd be dead within minutes from the radiation.

What? I'm honestly not sure if you know what a molecule is.Molecules are not in the bible, you know...

Molecules are not in the bible, you know...

Nice one to assume i'm christian. I'm not even a theist.

I can't believe you havn't responded to a single one of my refutations yet. Shows how you have batshit in your defence for your insane generalizations.

Not really. I mean yeah sure if you constructed a mega protein to be especially resiliant to survive what is basically a 24/7 xray bath maybe. But nothing would survive long enough to make it that far.

Even if somehow you could survive the cold, unequal pressure and lack of oxygen in space, you'd be dead within minutes from the radiation.
Alright then, that would make sense.
I do astrophysics, not chemistry or biology so I really don't know much about the binding energies of such chains of molecules. I know just enough to think it unlikely that they would survive in space intact.

Nice one to assume i'm christian. I'm not even a theist.

I can't believe you havn't responded to a single one of my refutations yet. Shows how you have batshit in your defence for your insane generalizations.why do you defend creationist positions then?

Again, building a building is not random, it is done on purpose. You would never expect to see a 7 story building occur naturally.
It was an analogy.
Also, if anything, I think that life getting started is more like enriching uranium than building a building. Getting the first 1% enrichment is as much work as it is to get the remaining 80-90%.

DNA is also random.
Glad to see you admit this. Even if it isn't strictly true.

I agree that it doesn't occur at once of course, but there is no force guiding proteins and giving it hints along the way when it comes to DNA. Unless you believe in God.
Yes, there are plenty of forces guilding proteins. Electromagnetic forces, van Der Waals forces... (It's been a while since I did chemistry, someone want to list off more relevant forces)
Chemical reactions aren't strictly random, they happen to reduce the energy of the system (molecules and atoms are lazy).

why do you defend creationist positions then?

The only thing I believe is that life is taken for granted. I don't view it merely as a peice of molecular materials.

I don't actually like right wing Christianity, but I defend religious people when they are being attacked as ignorent or unintelligent etc.. I find it offensive as so many of my freinds and family are religious.

Yes, there are plenty of forces guilding proteins. Electromagnetic forces, van Der Waals forces... (It's been a while since I did chemistry, someone want to list off more relevant forces)
Chemical reactions aren't strictly random, they happen to reduce the energy of the system (molecules and atoms are lazy).

When I say guiding forces, I mean that there is nothing that knows the right formation and gives it helpful hints like in Arthais' analogy of the number being "warmer" or "colder" etc...

The only thing I believe is that life is taken for granted. I don't view it merely as a peice of molecular materials.
I don't see how viewing life as "merely" being composed of molecules makes it less precious or more likely to be taken for granted.
If anything, it seems more precious.

Alright then, that would make sense.
I do astrophysics, not chemistry or biology so I really don't know much about the binding energies of such chains of molecules. I know just enough to think it unlikely that they would survive in space intact.

let's put it this way. Ever get a sunburn? That's cells being destroyed by too much time in the sun.

Now imagine standing in front of a very powerful xray machine, that's always on.

let's put it this way. Ever get a sunburn? That's cells being destroyed by too much time in the sun.

Now imagine standing in front of a very powerful xray machine, that's always on.
Haha. Yeah, that would be an issue. :p

Although I didn't know that a sunburn was the sun breaking the bonds of the molecules in my skin... eep!

Haha. Yeah, that would be an issue. :p

Although I didn't know that a sunburn was the sun breaking the bonds of the molecules in my skin... eep!

ever have skin die and peel off after a really bad burn? Wadda ya think killed it? Radiation, high energy photons, destroy chemical bonds.

ever have skin die and peel off after a really bad burn? Wadda ya think killed it? Radiation, high energy photons, destroy chemical bonds.
I suppose so.

This whole thread started from atheists hijacking a thread on plans for Good Friday. This is wanting to be left alone?

Actually it started with me, an agnostic, accidentally hijacking the thread by comparing someone's line of reasoning to the Spanish Inquisition.
At least, that's what I assume is meant by the thread starting with my post.

Ilaer

ever have skin die and peel off after a really bad burn? Wadda ya think killed it? Radiation, high energy photons, destroy chemical bonds.UV-A radiation, iirr, but i don't remember what exactly it destroys

The only thing I believe is that life is taken for granted. I don't view it merely as a peice of molecular materials.

Is your position basically just that life could not have begun this way because it was...hard?

No one said it was fast, or easy. Sure, it may have taken a confluence of events to get it started, but so what? How is it in any way harder to accept that than it is to believe that an all-powerful invisible man just zapped life into being? As Arthais has pointed out, it took a damned long time. Natural forces, and the necessary incredients came together, and things went from there.

Being surprised at that outcome is like mixing eggs and heat and being surprised when breakfast eventually appears. Or if you prefer, mixing flour and water and being surprised that a paste or a dough forms. Just because the road was a long one doesn't mean it wasn't the fact of things. It's certainly easier to believe than superman in the sky, at least from a rational viewpoint. I mean, you have natural, observable events/recreations on one hand, and...nothing, on the other, save some stories. Honestly, which has more weight?

And if you're not a theist, but you don't believe life came together naturally...what do you think happened?